You know, I bet I could wipe the floor no farming for rep on any of my toons, with everyone in this thread demanding a casual que, all at the same time.
Tell me Sofa Kings, what would your excuse be then? Me hacking? That you've been drinkin?
That you had a phone call?
And your posturing resolves the dead PUG queue's how??
We can blame the premades that farmed the PUG queues into extinction
Premade vs. Premade has never been an issue.
and as we pointed out, it's not the premades killing the queues. It is the lack of attention given to PvP by the Devs. If there were new and interesting game modes (not just segregation), there would be enough players to drown out the Premades in the queues and make bumping into them a rare occurence rather than the norm.
And your posturing resolves the dead PUG queue's how??
I think his intention is to point out that it's not premades that you want to get rid of. It's losing. And he wonders what your next step would be if it turned out that you still lose even in a pure pug queue.
and as we pointed out, it's not the premades killing the queues. It is the lack of attention given to PvP by the Devs. If there were new and interesting game modes (not just segregation), there would be enough players to drown out the Premades in the queues and make bumping into them a rare occurence rather than the norm.
...And this is where we can agree to disagree. My personal experience of being repeatedly spawn-farmed by premades gave me incentive NOT to use the PUG queues anymore.
Speaking of the Dev's: What code can they possibly add that would correct the lack of public PVP queue activity?
I do both. In a crowd of 10 to 20+ players, getting 1st or 2nd place consistently isn't easy, so being able to out-gun everyone else and getting 1-2 purple Mk XI/XII consoles at the end is more icing on the cake.
I played in a competition Quake clan for many years before diving into STO. The thrill only goes so far...
You can't compare the 2. It's like apples to oranges, pvp is not supposed to be like pve. In pve you can solo your way through anything. In pvp you can't.
Playing competitively with 10-20 people is nothing like work with 4 other people in a competition against another 4-5 people.
Saying you played quake I'd think you'd understand that.
Only ISE some of the time... the rest of the time I use the EliteSTF channel to form groups. Their strict rules about keeping random chat off the channel really keeps things moving.
So, the "resources" changed from "form a team and use OPvP chanell" to "communicate with others"?
I agree with the communication. Lack of it is the worse problem of PUGs. But I won't agree with your earlier "use the OPvP and form a team".
And if people want to have the way to get into casual, easy PUG, even one with "Kirk your way tothe victory" with the difficulty of normal STF then.. why not to give them a chance to do so? Will this separate queue hurt the current "premades".Yeah, probably. Will it hurt PvP - not at all. PvP cannot be worse and to be frank I kinda wonder why Cryptic is keeping it alive. Most likely because it will cost them more to kill it then to keep it in game.
Or they trully want to do a PvPrevamp with seasong 8. But I kinda doubt it.
So from my point of view give it a try. Anything new in PvP will make it better.
MAVHAX - I do not know you. I was always a lone wolf in PvP, my only complaint against OPvP players (not premades, mind it) was that they used the queues as testing ground for new tactics/builds and not cared for the team or victory at all. It was in time when queues were still full of life. When I complained about this here I got more or less the same answer as we are getting now: where/when/how should WE THE KINGS do what we want to do. After all we wont test it in the "real matches" against other premades. So let's ruin the fun for the PUGs and test it in the open queues.
And I wonder if my Patrol Escort (free) without P2W, DOFFs, sets etc would fall so easily to you as you think it would. Or my healer free Odie/Star Cruiser (I'm not sure I havethe toon with Odyssey somewhere).
...And this is where we can agree to disagree. My personal experience of being repeatedly spawn-farmed by premades gave me incentive NOT to use the PUG queues anymore.
Speaking of the Dev's: What code can they possibly add that would correct the lack of public PVP queue activity?
And as hilbert has said if there was more to due in pvp there would a lot more people making running into the evil premades a less likes occurrence.
The devs at this point need to do more the add a code. They need too actually show interest in pvp by considering the balance ramifications when releasing new power creep items, they need to add new game modes, new maps, new pvp objectives other then kill then so many times or hold this here for so long.
I think his intention is to point out that it's not premades that you want to get rid of. It's losing. And he wonders what your next step would be if it turned out that you still lose even in a pure pug queue.
The above is also another point of misunderstanding: No one wants to eliminate the Premades from the game. Otherwise I would not be able to join my fleet members in any organized events PVP or otherwise.
All the OP wants is a public queue where players who didn't wish to team or compete with premades could enter. The already-existing team queues would stay exactly where they are now. Players of all playing styles can enter either queue at will.
There is clearly a demand for a non-teamed PVP queue, whether or not you want to use it, but let the STO players decide for themselves. Don't try to shoe-horn them into an unpopular format that is clearly headed towards extinction.
I agree with the communication. Lack of it is the worse problem of PUGs. But I won't agree with your earlier "use the OPvP and form a team".
And if people want to have the way to get into casual, easy PUG, even one with "Kirk your way tothe victory" with the difficulty of normal STF then.. s. So let's ruin the fun for the PUGs and test it in the open queues.
.
If you choose not to form a team when playing a team game and then run into people who have chosen to form a team. You don't get the right to complain about it. Don't take a knife to a gun fight.
Stop comparing pvp to pve. They have completely different requirements on team work an communication.
And as hilbert has said if there was more to due in pvp there would a lot more people making running into the evil premades a less likes occurrence.
The devs at this point need to do more the add a code. They need too actually show interest in pvp by considering the balance ramifications when releasing new power creep items, they need to add new game modes, new maps, new pvp objectives other then kill then so many times or hold this here for so long.
I don't know if you understood my question, so I'll try to clarify: What features can the Dev's add to the existing PVP queues to make them come alive again? If the devs are going to add new code, then that new code has to do something new, right? The devs cannot exclude or nerf already existing ship gear since that's what drives Cryptic / PWE's monetary income. Also, rebalancing skills / abilities / items has been done and redone, yet the PVP public queues remain silent.
So what changes should they make to resurrect the currently dead PVP queues? Whatever changes are made have to be significant, not just adjusting number to favor one build over the other.
All the OP wants is a public queue where players who didn't wish to team or compete with premades could enter. The already-existing team queues would stay exactly where they are now. Players of all playing styles can enter either queue at will..
Except people who want to team with their friends. They'd e restricted to playing ony against premades.
I don't know if you understood my question, so I'll try to clarify: What features can the Dev's add to the existing PVP queues to make them come alive again? If the devs are going to add new code, then that new code has to do something new, right? The devs cannot exclude or nerf already existing ship gear since that's what drives Cryptic / PWE's monetary income. Also, rebalancing skills / abilities / items has been done and redone, yet the PVP public queues remain silent.
So what changes should they make to resurrect the currently dead PVP queues? Whatever changes are made have to be significant, not just adjusting number to favor one build over the other.
Balance has been done and redone? HAHAHAHAHAHAH yeah sure. What makes you so sure ts only a simple "code" to split the ques?
You asked what could be done to the public pvp. I told you want needs to be done for pvp to get fresh interest.
How are adding new maps and game modes and new objectives/rewards not a valid answer to your question?
If you place the restrictions on not touching stuff already in the game then in sorry to say, nothing can save pvp.
The above is also another point of misunderstanding: No one wants to eliminate the Premades from the game.
No, it's not a misunderstanding.
I realise that there is lipservice to keeping premades in the game. But the premade scene is tiny. Segregating the queues will lead to a situation where a good premade will clean out the team queue within a couple of matches. You may not believe it, but there are also huge skill differences among the few remaining premade groups.
If you don't believe this effect of "cleaning out the queues", test it yourself. Get a good KDF group together and start queueing. See how long it takes before the feds stop queueing for FvK and hide in FvF. (And in case you are wondering, KvK usually doesn't happen at all.)
Since I don't think either you or the OP are bold enough to claim that segregating the queues will lead to an upswing in premade groups, this means that you are essentially killing off the team queue (because then there is a queue where you can hide from the good groups, and people will do that).
I realise that you are willing to sacrifice the few remaining premade players in hope of an upswing in pug players. That's okay. But don't try sugarcoating this by saying that "team queues will remain as they are, so nothing changes for teamed players". Team queues most likely wouldn't survive it. Just like how FvK ultimately didn't survive FvF.
I'm just warning against an idea that in my opinion will backfire. If there was sufficient potential for pug queues to be a big success, there would be enough players around to make premades disappear as background noise in the queues and thus no need for pug queues in the first place.
You can't compare the 2. It's like apples to oranges, pvp is not supposed to be like pve. In pve you can solo your way through anything. In pvp you can't.
Playing competitively with 10-20 people is nothing like work with 4 other people in a competition against another 4-5 people.
Saying you played quake I'd think you'd understand that.
STO is a game -- it is supposed to be fun. PVE and PVP are both components of STO and many other games. However, STO's PVP facet has lost its luster due to lack of team balance when pitting Premade vs. PUG. There is also zero material rewards incentive. Compare that to Fleet Actions where it's PVE Co-Op, and you're competing for a real prize at the end.
Regardless of the fruit type, the grass is greener in Fleet Actions at this time.
I already made it clear that my priority is maximizing game time by minimizing wait time. The EliteSTF channel lets me do just that. Sure I can use the OPVP channel to join a premade, but team play is not always what I seek. I enjoy wild-west style ship to ship shootouts. I don't necessarily want to be in a premade squade just to PVP.
I hope you understand, but I'm not betting on the latter.
STO is a game -- it is supposed to be fun. PVE and PVP are both components of STO and many other games. However, STO's PVP facet has lost its luster due to lack of team balance when pitting Premade vs. PUG. There is also zero material rewards incentive. Compare that to Fleet Actions where it's PVE Co-Op, and you're competing for a real prize at the end.
Regardless of the fruit type, the grass is greener in Fleet Actions at this time.
I already made it clear that my priority is maximizing game time by minimizing wait time. The EliteSTF channel lets me do just that. Sure I can use the OPVP channel to join a premade, but team play is not always what I seek. I enjoy wild-west style ship to ship shootouts. I don't necessarily want to be in a premade squade just to PVP.
I hope you understand, but I'm not betting on the latter.
Yeah, pve gives all the rewards. So why are you even pvping at all since it seems you get all you need out of this game from pve?
So you prefer quantity of game time over quality of game time? The tools are at your finger tips to make pvp go by quicker too. You are just choosing not to. Sure, ok you may just want to que and go. Guess what, not everyone things that way.
Why should you be the only one to get things YOUR way and TRIBBLE everyone else else who may enjoy it a different way?
And nice, resort to insults.
You see to be having a hard time understanding the "simple" changes you want that will have dire consequences to the state of pvp at large.
Pvp is a team thing. It auto teams you when you go into a game alone. Doesn't it make sense that people who want to work as a team and join as a team will have an advantage over those solos out there who don't?
No one is saying hat. And that's the problem - if it want to attract more players, even Kirks, then it should be easy and casual.
And stop thinking that I want to compare PvP to PvE. Or that I am a PvEr who wants to PvP. I have not played PvP (outside of leveling first few levels) since I ended the PvE "story" line with my first toon - year or so ago.
Would I enjoy separate queues? Don't think so. I never had anything against premades in queues (ok, almost never) and in the last year I migrated from Arena to C&H and then to Ker'rat where I stayed until I decided to leave the game because I could not find enough fun in PvP.
But I do think, that such queues will be more appealing to all those Kirks and PvE players who now fear PvP. And it could bring more souls to PvP.
If you like solo play then pvp is not for you.
THAT is the biggest problem with PvP currently (outside of game mechanic flaws). PvP should give people a way to play solo vs another solo players. Bunch of lone wolfs brawling can be fun too for those who want it. And judging from the PvE part of forum and even the "kirk this, kirk that" we can hear here - lot of people like it that way. All the "this is team game, blah blah", comes from the old PvP players.
Except people who want to team with their friends. They'd e restricted to playing ony against premades.
Not true... since there are no changes being proposed to the already existing team queues, solo players can still join the same team queues without any restrictions. The new queue being proposed is for solo-players only, so just stay clear of them if you want to join your friends.
The only problem I see is when the friend DOESN'T want you tagging along, but that's outside the scope of this thread.
Yes... since STO was so rife with premades that the ques would just pop constantly without Facerollers being in the ques.
Here's a hint they didn't.
Know why most of us left this joke game?
Because it sucks balls.
It was filled with no skill no talent hacks that would blame ''evil premades'' among other things for their losses. The devs kept and still do release Dumb TRIBBLE ideas, without testing them, oh and after 3 years+ they can't even be bothered to put in a map because to quote one of the devs that came on panda vent recently
"It's too hard to make a new map"
Between the Rollers community, who sucked failed and would rather blame ''evil premades'' (which were a rarity in the ques) and crappy devs. This game's pvp Died. And at this point it should stay dead. So this game can die and so that they can sell the IP to a competent studio and publisher.
By the way any premades left in the ques now? You can take with a Competent group of pugs and roll their TRIBBLE 15 and 0 with literally two exceptions. TRH, and TSI. ******** about premades. Really?
Yeah, pve gives all the rewards. So why are you even pvping at all since it seems you get all you need out of this game from pve?
So you prefer quantity of game time over quality of game time? The tools are at your finger tips to make pvp go by quicker too. You are just choosing not to. Sure, ok you may just want to que and go. Guess what, not everyone things that way.
Why should you be the only one to get things YOUR way and TRIBBLE everyone else else who may enjoy it a different way?
I agree... not everyone likes the same play style. This is why we need queues to cater to everyone's different play styles. Shoving any type down an unwilling player's throat seems to be the accepted norm around here, and that's why the PVP queues are dead, and they will remain that way until the queues are opened up to something other than team-only PVP.
I'm unaware of firing any insults. I just voiced that didn't have high expectations of the other side taking an honest consideration my vantage point. Did I guess wrong?
You see to be having a hard time understanding the "simple" changes you want that will have dire consequences to the state of pvp at large.
Pvp is a team thing. It auto teams you when you go into a game alone. Doesn't it make sense that people who want to work as a team and join as a team will have an advantage over those solos out there who don't?
If you like solo play then pvp is not for you.
And this team-only mentality is exactly why public PVP is currently dead. STO's majority player base doesn't necessarily care for teams, so please give them the courtesy of chosing team vs. no-team. Until then, they will continue keeping their distance.
However, if you believe the current scenario is fine, then you can look forward to even more players leaving PVP permanently.
I sure am seeing a lot of hysterical reactions to the OP's post-more than on my own thread wth a similar theme (albeit, mine was an invitation to examine the flaws of the concept, rather than a direct proposal.)
I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this, and can't, but...
calm down and look at this rationally-the OP presumes (rightly) that Cryptic's unlikely in the extreme to come up with some kind of magykal Balance-Bullet code for PvP. He also presumes (with some evidence) that new players entering a Que will tend to not come back (i.e. to give up on PvP) when they hit any of the skilled or even semi-skilled pre-organized, experienced teams. I'll hold forth that there is some evidence to support this-I know MY first experience in PvP was ****ing rotten and it took me quite a while to even CONSIDER trying it again at all. (and only then because I had a friend who needed a body for a private match and didn't really care about skill level!)
On the contrary side, is the fear that splitting the ques will kill both, there may be some justification for that-if one assumes that the pool of potentials remains roughly where it is, or continues to decline...
continues to decline-yeah, I said "Continues", because it's already declining and has been for a while. When I first gave PvP a second chance, the ques were running at about the same rate as ques for STF's-I could get in a match in the half-hour before work, no problem, and it would run about 15 min. given roughly equal teams.
That was several months ago, Starbases were new things, and there was an over-all enthusiasm in the game that seems to be kind of missing now.
There was also, at about that time, a resurgence in complaints here on the forums about "Premades" bullying new players with spawncamping and the like.
I'm not saying anyone HERE does that, but it's interesting to see the hysteria generated by a suggestion that pre-made teams should be encouraged to fight other pre-made teams, rather than facerolling newbies who aren't in OPvP yet-esp. with the changes in how gear appropriate for PvP is obtained now, along with the rep system powers and the like-all of which take quite a bit of time for the casual (read: less than four hours a night, every night)Player-whom SHOULD be the market the PvP community needs to reach-because that's your pool of potentials, not the people who can afford to spend 6-12 hours on-line Monday through Sunday, 52 weeks a year.
For casuals, a separate, call it "Junior" que might be a darn good idea-they can get the experience of playing, without being some no-life basement dweller's cannibal feast or parental-dependent's target practice for lulz.
I just want to say "thank you" for actually looking at the issue from an unbiased, analytical perspective.
Between the Rollers community, who sucked failed and would rather blame ''evil premades'' (which were a rarity in the ques) and crappy devs. This game's pvp Died. And at this point it should stay dead. So this game can die and so that they can sell the IP to a competent studio and publisher.
By the way any premades left in the ques now? You can take with a Competent group of pugs and roll their TRIBBLE 15 and 0 with literally two exceptions. TRH, and TSI. ******** about premades. Really?
LOL
I agree with the part about STO's public PVP being effectively dead. Since the team-only public format failed, why are there so many that insist on keeping the rotting corpse as-is?
PvP should give people a way to play solo vs another solo players.
Isn't that what open zones like Ker'rat are for? We simply need more open zones.
Otherwise why is there a need for a new queing system? Give the player the challenge ability as in CO and let them them challenge each other that way in said open zones.
Though it seems like a bunch of trouble to add a challenge ability to the game but it would stop those (like myself) whom have mistakenly disrupted 1v1's in Ker'rat before.
On other related thread topics in here,
To Mav;
PvP died in STO in part becuase of the individual players desire to 1v1 with others and expecting the game and vessels to be balanced accordingly. When things where not so done and said individuals still refused to accept that the Devs did design PvP around teams foremost, they blaimed to premades rather than building thier own.
Seriuosly who can't make 4 friends in STO, form a team and start praticing PvP?
snap! Thats right, those whom blaimed the premades, cried that the vessels needed to be balance against each other on a 1v1 basis for fair alance, etc, etc.
Its one of the reasons I stopped running the ques a long time ago and just enjoyed Ker'rat.
If I pug in the Ques with 4 peeps I know but have no team design and do well, suddenly I'm in a premade. If I pug and go up against a 5 peeps I know and I know know each other and lose, suddenly I lost to a premade.
Thats just wrong.
To Devs;
Give the PvP community more Ker'rats and a challenge system if possible.
It was filled with no skill no talent hacks that would blame ''evil premades'' among other things for their losses. The devs kept and still do release Dumb TRIBBLE ideas, without testing them, oh and after 3 years+ they can't even be bothered to put in a map because to quote one of the devs that came on panda vent recently
"It's too hard to make a new map"
seriously? i can think of several pve maps that with a few additions could be made into pvp maps, its not even a question of making the art. is there no one left that know how to code it into the system?
Between the Rollers community, who sucked failed and would rather blame ''evil premades'' (which were a rarity in the ques) and crappy devs. This game's pvp Died. And at this point it should stay dead. So this game can die and so that they can sell the IP to a competent studio and publisher.
By the way any premades left in the ques now? You can take with a Competent group of pugs and roll their TRIBBLE 15 and 0 with literally two exceptions. TRH, and TSI. ******** about premades. Really?
LOL
seriously puggies, these are the only 2 you will see in great numbers anymore. other then these 2, beware of multiple critz, or sad pandas. its very rare to see any number of these guys though. theres a handful of other fleets that premade, but they are beatable with random pugs if at least 3 are decent players and the rest arent feeder level bad.
premading is the most dead aspect of pvp in this game. anyone can make a pug made though, if you do any pvp its extreamly silly not to join OPVP, its as much a learning and teaching tool as it is a team forming tool. and it tends to have the nicest group of guys there is, that want to help you, and maybe troll you, but only a little. the vast majority of my pvp is solo, but i watch for teams forming and join them when i see them. this takes no effort, there is no huge amount of down time added from this
do you find your self complaining about talented players gravitating to each other? do just want a casual experience? well guess what, pvp isn't casual. apply yourself, learn how to build a ship, ask for help and in the process make friends. i don't know any regular in these forums or in OPVP that snickers at people trying to get better, it doesn't happen. if thats what you think the majority of pvper are, your dead wrong.
building a good pvp ship, and learning how to survive and win in pvp will let you slaughter the pve content effortlessly. wouldn't you like to get your dil and marks faster? well then learn to pvp, and learn to use more then 10% of your ships potential. if i pug an stf, theres a 90% chance of a flawless success just because im there carrying the team. last time i logged an stf, i dealt 3 times the damage of the other 4 combined, and was there to prevent optional failure with god strategy and tactics. learn to pvp and que into stfs confident that you will leave fully rewarded, or that you will get first place in fleet actions every time.
casually playing is bad for your fun, and the fun of everyone around you. but you don't see us making threads like this complaining about all the casuals that don't want to get better ruining out pug made experience. becoming a minmaxing leet haxor is easy. read my help thread, pm me in game, join opvp and ask questions, and you too can build good ships. almost every time i play i am pm'ed for help from someone new, or someone i have been giving advice too. if im not in a match, i am happy to help you!
Yeah, a Cryptic employee, who shall remain un-named (so as not to discourage future visits), basically told us that the coding for PvP maps is some of the most complex in the game. I got the impression that the original devs didn't do a good job of notating their work for future devs to use as reference.
When asked why Respawn couldn't be added to existing maps, that is the answer we got.
I honestly wouldn't expect much in the way of further PvP development unless they overhaul the entire system using the mythical new tech that DStahl alluded to earlier this year.
Yeah, a Cryptic employee, who shall remain un-named (so as not to discourage future visits), basically told us that the coding for PvP maps is some of the most complex in the game. I got the impression that the original devs didn't do a good job of notating their work for future devs to use as reference.
When asked why Respawn couldn't be added to existing maps, that is the answer we got.
I honestly wouldn't expect much in the way of further PvP development unless they overhaul the entire system using the mythical new tech that DStahl alluded to earlier this year.
oh ya, the new tech. sounds like pvp has to be coded by hand, wile internally pve can be made with their super foundry. hopefully that new tech is a pve super foundry of sorts. at least a dev(s) are hanging out with pvp'ers in vents and teams speaks, hope that continues
oh ya, the new tech. sounds like pvp has to be coded by hand, wile internally pve can be made with their super foundry. hopefully that new tech is a pve super foundry of sorts. at least a dev(s) are hanging out with pvp'ers in vents and teams speaks, hope that continues
I think you just hit the nail on the head right there.
I am a solo player .To be honest I don't play arena very much.
I play more C&H (1 arena/10 C&H i guess and the ratio is changing daily in the favor of C&H)
Lately when l meet a premade(4 or more ships from same fleet) in arena I ask the team what they want to do.We vote and if the team decides we should leave we all leave the map or if the teams decide to stay then we stay and try to make our best.
I think that if pug groups would leave arena as soon as they are put against a premade the number of premades will lower in time.
Don't leave, just keep flying back in no matter how many times you die, even if rest of your team leaves, stay. I'm not saying suicide, try to put up a fight if you can, but it really doesn't matter how many times you die or if you lose, it still counts towards the dilithium daily. If you really must have it over fast and your team already abandoned you just unequip shields and don't heal, at least you still get your dil and the other team does to.
Yeah, a Cryptic employee, who shall remain un-named (so as not to discourage future visits), basically told us that the coding for PvP maps is some of the most complex in the game. I got the impression that the original devs didn't do a good job of notating their work for future devs to use as reference.
When asked why Respawn couldn't be added to existing maps, that is the answer we got.
An example that shows how cryptic hiding their technical problems leads to discontent is the pvp map situation. It should have been trivial to calm the pvp community be giving them a new pvp map (map, not game mode) every 3-6 months. Just take an empty map with a new background image, put a meaningless object in the middle and 6 transwarp gates in a circle and the map is complete. They did not do this although it sounds like an incredibly good idea to satisfy the basic wishes of that community and at the same time spend less than 10 minutes on designing the map.
I firmly believe that they are incapable to make such a map because their spawn point system (for dynamic spawn points based on factions) is beyond repair. This also explains why they cannot fix Kerrat (they tried during S2 or S3 testing and in the process they broke C&H spawnpoints on tribble for a day).
Modifying the obsurd amount of damage a tactical captain does while flying an escort in PVP is a great start. They are able to stack ALOT of + damage abilities which is part of the problem. If you don't think this is a balance issue, then you haven't been playing the game long enough. It used to be that cruisers were unstoppable, and battles lasted 10-15 minutes long. What was once Cruiser online, and then Science ship online, has been Escort online for well well over a year or two. I've learned to accept this though, as I don't see it changing. I come back here every season for a short while to test things out, then I leave. Perhaps it will change next summer for pvp.
Comments
And your posturing resolves the dead PUG queue's how??
and as we pointed out, it's not the premades killing the queues. It is the lack of attention given to PvP by the Devs. If there were new and interesting game modes (not just segregation), there would be enough players to drown out the Premades in the queues and make bumping into them a rare occurence rather than the norm.
...And this is where we can agree to disagree. My personal experience of being repeatedly spawn-farmed by premades gave me incentive NOT to use the PUG queues anymore.
Speaking of the Dev's: What code can they possibly add that would correct the lack of public PVP queue activity?
You can't compare the 2. It's like apples to oranges, pvp is not supposed to be like pve. In pve you can solo your way through anything. In pvp you can't.
Playing competitively with 10-20 people is nothing like work with 4 other people in a competition against another 4-5 people.
Saying you played quake I'd think you'd understand that.
Hypocritical much?
Do you even Science Bro?
I agree with the communication. Lack of it is the worse problem of PUGs. But I won't agree with your earlier "use the OPvP and form a team".
And if people want to have the way to get into casual, easy PUG, even one with "Kirk your way tothe victory" with the difficulty of normal STF then.. why not to give them a chance to do so? Will this separate queue hurt the current "premades".Yeah, probably. Will it hurt PvP - not at all. PvP cannot be worse and to be frank I kinda wonder why Cryptic is keeping it alive. Most likely because it will cost them more to kill it then to keep it in game.
Or they trully want to do a PvPrevamp with seasong 8. But I kinda doubt it.
So from my point of view give it a try. Anything new in PvP will make it better.
MAVHAX - I do not know you. I was always a lone wolf in PvP, my only complaint against OPvP players (not premades, mind it) was that they used the queues as testing ground for new tactics/builds and not cared for the team or victory at all. It was in time when queues were still full of life. When I complained about this here I got more or less the same answer as we are getting now: where/when/how should WE THE KINGS do what we want to do. After all we wont test it in the "real matches" against other premades. So let's ruin the fun for the PUGs and test it in the open queues.
And I wonder if my Patrol Escort (free) without P2W, DOFFs, sets etc would fall so easily to you as you think it would. Or my healer free Odie/Star Cruiser (I'm not sure I havethe toon with Odyssey somewhere).
(Unfortunately the forums don't show true join dates anymore.)
And as hilbert has said if there was more to due in pvp there would a lot more people making running into the evil premades a less likes occurrence.
The devs at this point need to do more the add a code. They need too actually show interest in pvp by considering the balance ramifications when releasing new power creep items, they need to add new game modes, new maps, new pvp objectives other then kill then so many times or hold this here for so long.
Do you even Science Bro?
The above is also another point of misunderstanding: No one wants to eliminate the Premades from the game. Otherwise I would not be able to join my fleet members in any organized events PVP or otherwise.
All the OP wants is a public queue where players who didn't wish to team or compete with premades could enter. The already-existing team queues would stay exactly where they are now. Players of all playing styles can enter either queue at will.
There is clearly a demand for a non-teamed PVP queue, whether or not you want to use it, but let the STO players decide for themselves. Don't try to shoe-horn them into an unpopular format that is clearly headed towards extinction.
If you choose not to form a team when playing a team game and then run into people who have chosen to form a team. You don't get the right to complain about it. Don't take a knife to a gun fight.
Stop comparing pvp to pve. They have completely different requirements on team work an communication.
Who says pvp in this game is causal? Or easy?
Do you even Science Bro?
I don't know if you understood my question, so I'll try to clarify: What features can the Dev's add to the existing PVP queues to make them come alive again? If the devs are going to add new code, then that new code has to do something new, right? The devs cannot exclude or nerf already existing ship gear since that's what drives Cryptic / PWE's monetary income. Also, rebalancing skills / abilities / items has been done and redone, yet the PVP public queues remain silent.
So what changes should they make to resurrect the currently dead PVP queues? Whatever changes are made have to be significant, not just adjusting number to favor one build over the other.
Except people who want to team with their friends. They'd e restricted to playing ony against premades.
Do you even Science Bro?
Balance has been done and redone? HAHAHAHAHAHAH yeah sure. What makes you so sure ts only a simple "code" to split the ques?
You asked what could be done to the public pvp. I told you want needs to be done for pvp to get fresh interest.
How are adding new maps and game modes and new objectives/rewards not a valid answer to your question?
If you place the restrictions on not touching stuff already in the game then in sorry to say, nothing can save pvp.
Do you even Science Bro?
I realise that there is lipservice to keeping premades in the game. But the premade scene is tiny. Segregating the queues will lead to a situation where a good premade will clean out the team queue within a couple of matches. You may not believe it, but there are also huge skill differences among the few remaining premade groups.
If you don't believe this effect of "cleaning out the queues", test it yourself. Get a good KDF group together and start queueing. See how long it takes before the feds stop queueing for FvK and hide in FvF. (And in case you are wondering, KvK usually doesn't happen at all.)
Since I don't think either you or the OP are bold enough to claim that segregating the queues will lead to an upswing in premade groups, this means that you are essentially killing off the team queue (because then there is a queue where you can hide from the good groups, and people will do that).
I realise that you are willing to sacrifice the few remaining premade players in hope of an upswing in pug players. That's okay. But don't try sugarcoating this by saying that "team queues will remain as they are, so nothing changes for teamed players". Team queues most likely wouldn't survive it. Just like how FvK ultimately didn't survive FvF.
I'm just warning against an idea that in my opinion will backfire. If there was sufficient potential for pug queues to be a big success, there would be enough players around to make premades disappear as background noise in the queues and thus no need for pug queues in the first place.
STO is a game -- it is supposed to be fun. PVE and PVP are both components of STO and many other games. However, STO's PVP facet has lost its luster due to lack of team balance when pitting Premade vs. PUG. There is also zero material rewards incentive. Compare that to Fleet Actions where it's PVE Co-Op, and you're competing for a real prize at the end.
Regardless of the fruit type, the grass is greener in Fleet Actions at this time.
I already made it clear that my priority is maximizing game time by minimizing wait time. The EliteSTF channel lets me do just that. Sure I can use the OPVP channel to join a premade, but team play is not always what I seek. I enjoy wild-west style ship to ship shootouts. I don't necessarily want to be in a premade squade just to PVP.
I hope you understand, but I'm not betting on the latter.
Yeah, pve gives all the rewards. So why are you even pvping at all since it seems you get all you need out of this game from pve?
So you prefer quantity of game time over quality of game time? The tools are at your finger tips to make pvp go by quicker too. You are just choosing not to. Sure, ok you may just want to que and go. Guess what, not everyone things that way.
Why should you be the only one to get things YOUR way and TRIBBLE everyone else else who may enjoy it a different way?
And nice, resort to insults.
You see to be having a hard time understanding the "simple" changes you want that will have dire consequences to the state of pvp at large.
Pvp is a team thing. It auto teams you when you go into a game alone. Doesn't it make sense that people who want to work as a team and join as a team will have an advantage over those solos out there who don't?
If you like solo play then pvp is not for you.
Do you even Science Bro?
No one is saying hat. And that's the problem - if it want to attract more players, even Kirks, then it should be easy and casual.
And stop thinking that I want to compare PvP to PvE. Or that I am a PvEr who wants to PvP. I have not played PvP (outside of leveling first few levels) since I ended the PvE "story" line with my first toon - year or so ago.
Would I enjoy separate queues? Don't think so. I never had anything against premades in queues (ok, almost never) and in the last year I migrated from Arena to C&H and then to Ker'rat where I stayed until I decided to leave the game because I could not find enough fun in PvP.
But I do think, that such queues will be more appealing to all those Kirks and PvE players who now fear PvP. And it could bring more souls to PvP.
THAT is the biggest problem with PvP currently (outside of game mechanic flaws). PvP should give people a way to play solo vs another solo players. Bunch of lone wolfs brawling can be fun too for those who want it. And judging from the PvE part of forum and even the "kirk this, kirk that" we can hear here - lot of people like it that way. All the "this is team game, blah blah", comes from the old PvP players.
Not true... since there are no changes being proposed to the already existing team queues, solo players can still join the same team queues without any restrictions. The new queue being proposed is for solo-players only, so just stay clear of them if you want to join your friends.
The only problem I see is when the friend DOESN'T want you tagging along, but that's outside the scope of this thread.
Here's a hint they didn't.
Know why most of us left this joke game?
Because it sucks balls.
It was filled with no skill no talent hacks that would blame ''evil premades'' among other things for their losses. The devs kept and still do release Dumb TRIBBLE ideas, without testing them, oh and after 3 years+ they can't even be bothered to put in a map because to quote one of the devs that came on panda vent recently
"It's too hard to make a new map"
Between the Rollers community, who sucked failed and would rather blame ''evil premades'' (which were a rarity in the ques) and crappy devs. This game's pvp Died. And at this point it should stay dead. So this game can die and so that they can sell the IP to a competent studio and publisher.
By the way any premades left in the ques now? You can take with a Competent group of pugs and roll their TRIBBLE 15 and 0 with literally two exceptions. TRH, and TSI. ******** about premades. Really?
LOL
I agree... not everyone likes the same play style. This is why we need queues to cater to everyone's different play styles. Shoving any type down an unwilling player's throat seems to be the accepted norm around here, and that's why the PVP queues are dead, and they will remain that way until the queues are opened up to something other than team-only PVP.
I'm unaware of firing any insults. I just voiced that didn't have high expectations of the other side taking an honest consideration my vantage point. Did I guess wrong?
And this team-only mentality is exactly why public PVP is currently dead. STO's majority player base doesn't necessarily care for teams, so please give them the courtesy of chosing team vs. no-team. Until then, they will continue keeping their distance.
However, if you believe the current scenario is fine, then you can look forward to even more players leaving PVP permanently.
I just want to say "thank you" for actually looking at the issue from an unbiased, analytical perspective.
Yes, I agree that the current public PVP queue format in this game is horrible. The rest of it is actually quite fun!
I agree with the part about STO's public PVP being effectively dead. Since the team-only public format failed, why are there so many that insist on keeping the rotting corpse as-is?
Isn't that what open zones like Ker'rat are for? We simply need more open zones.
Otherwise why is there a need for a new queing system? Give the player the challenge ability as in CO and let them them challenge each other that way in said open zones.
Though it seems like a bunch of trouble to add a challenge ability to the game but it would stop those (like myself) whom have mistakenly disrupted 1v1's in Ker'rat before.
On other related thread topics in here,
To Mav;
PvP died in STO in part becuase of the individual players desire to 1v1 with others and expecting the game and vessels to be balanced accordingly. When things where not so done and said individuals still refused to accept that the Devs did design PvP around teams foremost, they blaimed to premades rather than building thier own.
Seriuosly who can't make 4 friends in STO, form a team and start praticing PvP?
snap! Thats right, those whom blaimed the premades, cried that the vessels needed to be balance against each other on a 1v1 basis for fair alance, etc, etc.
Its one of the reasons I stopped running the ques a long time ago and just enjoyed Ker'rat.
If I pug in the Ques with 4 peeps I know but have no team design and do well, suddenly I'm in a premade. If I pug and go up against a 5 peeps I know and I know know each other and lose, suddenly I lost to a premade.
Thats just wrong.
To Devs;
Give the PvP community more Ker'rats and a challenge system if possible.
R.I.P
seriously? i can think of several pve maps that with a few additions could be made into pvp maps, its not even a question of making the art. is there no one left that know how to code it into the system?
seriously puggies, these are the only 2 you will see in great numbers anymore. other then these 2, beware of multiple critz, or sad pandas. its very rare to see any number of these guys though. theres a handful of other fleets that premade, but they are beatable with random pugs if at least 3 are decent players and the rest arent feeder level bad.
premading is the most dead aspect of pvp in this game. anyone can make a pug made though, if you do any pvp its extreamly silly not to join OPVP, its as much a learning and teaching tool as it is a team forming tool. and it tends to have the nicest group of guys there is, that want to help you, and maybe troll you, but only a little. the vast majority of my pvp is solo, but i watch for teams forming and join them when i see them. this takes no effort, there is no huge amount of down time added from this
do you find your self complaining about talented players gravitating to each other? do just want a casual experience? well guess what, pvp isn't casual. apply yourself, learn how to build a ship, ask for help and in the process make friends. i don't know any regular in these forums or in OPVP that snickers at people trying to get better, it doesn't happen. if thats what you think the majority of pvper are, your dead wrong.
building a good pvp ship, and learning how to survive and win in pvp will let you slaughter the pve content effortlessly. wouldn't you like to get your dil and marks faster? well then learn to pvp, and learn to use more then 10% of your ships potential. if i pug an stf, theres a 90% chance of a flawless success just because im there carrying the team. last time i logged an stf, i dealt 3 times the damage of the other 4 combined, and was there to prevent optional failure with god strategy and tactics. learn to pvp and que into stfs confident that you will leave fully rewarded, or that you will get first place in fleet actions every time.
casually playing is bad for your fun, and the fun of everyone around you. but you don't see us making threads like this complaining about all the casuals that don't want to get better ruining out pug made experience. becoming a minmaxing leet haxor is easy. read my help thread, pm me in game, join opvp and ask questions, and you too can build good ships. almost every time i play i am pm'ed for help from someone new, or someone i have been giving advice too. if im not in a match, i am happy to help you!
When asked why Respawn couldn't be added to existing maps, that is the answer we got.
I honestly wouldn't expect much in the way of further PvP development unless they overhaul the entire system using the mythical new tech that DStahl alluded to earlier this year.
oh ya, the new tech. sounds like pvp has to be coded by hand, wile internally pve can be made with their super foundry. hopefully that new tech is a pve super foundry of sorts. at least a dev(s) are hanging out with pvp'ers in vents and teams speaks, hope that continues
I think you just hit the nail on the head right there.
Don't leave, just keep flying back in no matter how many times you die, even if rest of your team leaves, stay. I'm not saying suicide, try to put up a fight if you can, but it really doesn't matter how many times you die or if you lose, it still counts towards the dilithium daily. If you really must have it over fast and your team already abandoned you just unequip shields and don't heal, at least you still get your dil and the other team does to.