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What the Ambassador should be.

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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    rumblep wrote: »
    38,500 Hull Health(42,500 Fleet)
    8 Base Turn
    1.15 Shield Modifier(1.15 Fleet)
    4 Device Slots

    800 Base Crew

    4 Fore Weapons
    4 Aft Weapons

    Lieutenant Commander Engineer
    Ensign Engineer
    Lieutenant Commander Science
    Ensign Science
    Lieutenant Tactical(Possible Universal)
    Lieutenant Tactical

    3 Engineering Console Slots (4 Fleet)
    3 Science Console Slots(4 Fleet)
    3 Tactical Console Slots

    +5 Power to all subsystems
    (Possible Hanger)

    No.

    Reasons:
    1.15 shield mod on your base design? This is a cruiser. That's too high. Reduce to 1.0. You have 14 BOff ability slots. Um... no. The max is 13. Also, a double LtCmdr? Did you not read the thread before this point? Double LtCmdr makes the ship too versatile. And before you say "well you lose the Cmdr Engineering", don't even try that. The number of useful Cmdr Engineering abilities right now is pretty much just 2. Aux2SIF3 and RSP3. Not gonna fly. So I am going to have to say no to that as well. As for consoles, that's acceptable. Until you look at the fleet version with 11 consoles. Yeeeeeeeah no. Why does this ship deserve 11 consoles? It doesn't. And no hangar. Enough with the cruisers having hangars. It's bad enough they put on on the Armitage (an escort) and the Vesta (a science ship). Hangars should have stayed with Carriers.

    What you did right:
    +5 power to all subsystems. Typical of a cruiser, and a good design. High hull. Also good for a cruiser. The 8 turn rate had me annoyed when I first looked at it, but then I remembered that this ship was very small, so it having a higher turn rate made sense. Weapon count, device slots, and crew are also acceptable.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • jadensecurajadensecura Member Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    No.

    Reasons:
    1.15 shield mod on your base design? This is a cruiser. That's too high. Reduce to 1.0. You have 14 BOff ability slots. Um... no. The max is 13. Also, a double LtCmdr? Did you not read the thread before this point? Double LtCmdr makes the ship too versatile.

    You need to look again. The total number of ability slots is 3+1+3+1+2+2=12, an Assault Cruiser has 4+3+1+2+2=12, that's the same. 2 LtCmdr slots per ship is also standard, usually both are in the primary role of the ship (for a cruiser, Eng), but there is plenty of precedent for putting one in another role (Armitage, MVAE, Regent, Excelsior, D'Kora, Galor, D'Kyr, Nebula, and Fleet Nova). The only really weird thing this does is trade the Cmdr slot for an Ens one.

    On the shield modifier, that is the modifier of the free Ody, which occupied this exact position last year. This vessel having the same one is not unreasonable. You are right on the consoles, although I don't agree with your idea on hangars, the real question is whether there should be a KDF-style flight deck cruiser on the Fed side.

    All that said, this isn't really what I'd like to see. I'd really like the Ambassador to be a real 7 eng slot cruiser with good mobility, but that's really just me selfishly wanting that for my own roster. The OP's layout with a turn rate of 8, an inertia rating of about 25 or 20, and maybe a universal ensign (the Ody does get LtC uni) would seem like a reasonable addition to the cruiser list and would fill that role for me.
  • rumbleprumblep Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    1. 8 base turn is on-par with the Excelsior. If a fairly large ship like that could turn so well, then so should other cruisers. It needs to be put down a point to 7.
    Also the heavy cruiser has a turn of 8. As for others, there are ones that are higher. Strictly talking cruisers here... the connie is 9, TOS connie 10, Miranda 11, Assault is 7. Need i say more?

    and in general I agree but with out the majority of lvl 3 in both sci and eng. I dont see where i'd be OP, also has the traditional 12 bridge officer powers like any other ship. I grant you its a bit of a new idea, but you should also notice that its the lightest weight cruiser in this set up hull wise. Only slightly more then a Nebula and slightly less then the star cruiser. Concidering the excelsior is longer, the basic volume taken up in space concidering the Ambassadors width should keep the weight roughly the same, same goes with the heavy cruiser, some of its varients are smaller then both of those ships so I dont see a problem mathmatically with a turn of 8. Further the bridge officer console set up, i dont see where thats going to make it op in anyway. the console counts are identical to current t5 ships. To remove one would make it UP. The idea in the console area is to make it on par with current ships. Again you point out the excelsior, its on par with the assault cruisers (soverign). This set up is designed to keep this ship roughly on par with its counter parts. having that set up keeps it from excelling in tanking next to a real tank like the current cruisers while increasing its healing abilities through the science end of it to keep it in a fight. I think you'd be surprised but this ship by rights shouldn't take the punishment of the current cruisers in game unless you dedicate all of the engineering and science abilities to healing. 3 tactical consoles puts it on par with the assault cruisers for dps out put, but it still lacks dual cannons keeping it from beating out escorts. As stated this ship is a light cruiser, and with the addition of the hanger it shifts from light cruiser to frigate which is still just a light cruiser/light destroyer with a helo deck in current modern ships on the water. Theres no way this ship can compete in any one area with any one type, but its versatility should keep it usable. I dont see where this would be the prefered option of the player base in STF/PVP/PVE play really as the ship is a jack of all trades and the toons playing them would be forced, just to be viable, to set up their bridges that way. The ideal with this set up would be to use -threat consoles and use it to offer fire support to the tanks/healers and limitied healing/cc for the group. That would free up the healer to concentrate on healing and the escorts to do what they do best. This is a straight up harasser/interdiction design, nothing more nothing less. I seriously doubt it could stand up to a cube on its own for long, much less a tac cube for instance in instance play. The tholian carriers that most of us reguard as limp and easy would also be a bit of a challenge for this ship but not impossible. The console set up in general is to give it functionality for all classes to use effectively while keeping it from being OP, i think in a live test, you'd feel her limitations. It'd be almost like the chimera, sort of a gimick but somewhat effective. Personally i wouldn't even give this ship a "every body can use this console" but i'm sure it'll get one anyway. the power in this ship is its versatility to fit and respond to a given situation, but I seriously doubt anybody would be dumb enough to try to use this as the fore runner of an engagement PVP/PVE or otherwise. Its just not strong enough. Even with the 1.15 shield. Those wont last long, and once they are gone, she's tissue paper. With full skill in structural integ. she ought to be up around 42000ish hull health for the standard model, maybe 48000ish with the fleet model. The galaxy has 55,000 and 60,000 respectively. I know those for a fact as I use them constantly.
    -Captain Saffrin
    Federation 12th Cavalry
    Deep Space 19/USS Montana
  • rumbleprumblep Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Reasons:
    1.15 shield mod on your base design?
    Tell that to the Oddy. The rest are running 1.1 and 1.0 with the exception of the heavy cruiser running 0.95. Also, pay attention to the hull health level.
    You have 14 BOff ability slots.
    Look at your own ship, its 12, not 13 not 14, 12. Theres only 12 here, count again.

    Here i'll help. LT Cmdr 3 (6 total) Ensign 1 (theres 2 of those) Lt 2(that makes 4)

    so 6+2=8+4=12

    Nuff said?

    Armitage (an escort) and the Vesta (a science ship). Hangars should have stayed with Carriers.
    Perhaps but now that door is open, Cruisers are the only ones who dont have one, you made my case for me.

    Also, a double LtCmdr?
    I would point out that the oddy has a Lt. Cmdr and ensign Universal. Spare me... Never mind its other pluthera of powers. Paired with its Cmdr Eng this is no more or less powerful then that ship powers wise. I'll grant you that two Lt. Cmdr stations is unique but not OP as its been done time and time again in the fashion of Cmdr and Lt. Cmdr Assault cruiser has Cmdr eng and Lt. Cmdr Tac same with excel, the Assault Refit has As similar with the addition of a Lt. Universal. Galaxy doesn't apply as both cmdr and lt cmdr are eng, same for the star cruiser, and the heavy Cruiser. Case, point, and the end.

    EDIT:
    I did just notice one miner error with my Fleet console counts... 11, should be 10.

    to pick on i'd add it to the eng side, just for reference... I do admit mistakes. Sorry... i'll edit it up top to reflect.
    -Captain Saffrin
    Federation 12th Cavalry
    Deep Space 19/USS Montana
  • rumbleprumblep Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    We need a cruiser with LTCM Science. The reason I think it should have an Ensign Tac is because it comes from a war time era with Romulans.

    where would ya put the extra power, that drops it 1 short from every other end game ship in the game...

    I honestly traded the cmdr Eng for the extra power at tactical... or a Lt. Uni station, take your pick. I dont like the idea of the uni cause then it might just be a lil op but would help make it more role specific.
    -Captain Saffrin
    Federation 12th Cavalry
    Deep Space 19/USS Montana
  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Ambassador has to have a role. thats why I came up with that setup.

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  • rumbleprumblep Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I agree... every set up has a role, even something as versital as mine. Its not a front runner though, not mine... not ment to be... Honestly our two aren't that different, but yours is more suited to be a galaxy replacement more or less... decent design... just had some miner changes is all. Thought i'd voice em.
    -Captain Saffrin
    Federation 12th Cavalry
    Deep Space 19/USS Montana
  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What is should be is a in between to show transition between the Excelsior and the Galaxy.

    -40k Hull
    -1. shields
    -Crew of 800
    -Turn rate of 7
    -Inertia of 30

    Lt. Tac
    Cmd. Eng
    Lt. Eng
    En. Eng
    Lt. Cmd Sci

    or

    Lt. Tac
    Cmd. Eng
    Lt. Eng
    Lt. Eng
    Lt. Sci
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Ambassador-class expectations:

    Commander Engineering
    Lt. Cmdr Science
    Lieutenant Tactical
    Lieutenant Engineering
    Ensign Universal

    4/4 weapon slots

    1.05 or 1.1 shield modifier

    4 device slots

    40k~ hull

    7 turn rate

    4 Eng console slots
    3 Sci console slots
    2 Tac console slots

    Call me arrogant, but since my guess for the Vesta's BOff layout was dead on and the C-Store Odyssey layout was nearly so (I called Ensign Eng, they gave it Ensign Univ.), I'm pretty confident in my guess for the Ambassador's BOff layout.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    rumblep wrote: »
    Tell that to the Oddy. The rest are running 1.1 and 1.0 with the exception of the heavy cruiser running 0.95. Also, pay attention to the hull health level.
    The Odyssey is a 25th century design. Not a piece of garbage 23rd century wannabe.

    Look at your own ship, its 12, not 13 not 14, 12. Theres only 12 here, count again.
    My mistake, posted when I was only partly awake.

    Here i'll help. LT Cmdr 3 (6 total) Ensign 1 (theres 2 of those) Lt 2(that makes 4)

    so 6+2=8+4=12

    Nuff said?
    Not gonna answer that question.


    Perhaps but now that door is open, Cruisers are the only ones who dont have one, you made my case for me.
    This is a KDF thing. Fighters were supposed to be a KDF exclusive thing in this game. So still no.


    I would point out that the oddy has a Lt. Cmdr and ensign Universal. Spare me... Never mind its other pluthera of powers. Paired with its Cmdr Eng this is no more or less powerful then that ship powers wise. I'll grant you that two Lt. Cmdr stations is unique but not OP as its been done time and time again in the fashion of Cmdr and Lt. Cmdr Assault cruiser has Cmdr eng and Lt. Cmdr Tac same with excel, the Assault Refit has As similar with the addition of a Lt. Universal. Galaxy doesn't apply as both cmdr and lt cmdr are eng, same for the star cruiser, and the heavy Cruiser. Case, point, and the end.
    I would also point out that the Odyssey again is a 25th century design that was supposed to be the most versatile ship in the game. And it has other weaknesses to make up for this versatility, try it's turn rate and inertia. As a direct counter to your other argument you will notice that most ships have that LtCmdr and Cmdr as the same type. Just for the record, the freebie assault cruiser has a LtCmdr Engi and a Cmdr Engi. As for the refit, it was designated as a tactical cruiser.

    EDIT:
    I did just notice one miner error with my Fleet console counts... 11, should be 10.

    to pick on i'd add it to the eng side, just for reference... I do admit mistakes. Sorry... i'll edit it up top to reflect.

    Comments in red.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • rumbleprumblep Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Oddy is still garbage, 25th century garbage or 24th whats the difference. In all honesty all these ships are garbage. Pixels=garbage

    cant hold em in your hands, cant sell em for profit. I've yet to see you contribute anything to the conversation in this thread that wasn't negative. just a thought.
    -Captain Saffrin
    Federation 12th Cavalry
    Deep Space 19/USS Montana
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    jexsamx wrote: »
    Ambassador-class expectations:

    Commander Engineering
    Lt. Cmdr Science
    Lieutenant Tactical
    Lieutenant Engineering
    Ensign Universal

    4/4 weapon slots

    1.05 or 1.1 shield modifier

    4 device slots

    40k~ hull

    7 turn rate

    4 Eng console slots
    3 Sci console slots
    2 Tac console slots

    Call me arrogant, but since my guess for the Vesta's BOff layout was dead on and the C-Store Odyssey layout was nearly so (I called Ensign Eng, they gave it Ensign Univ.), I'm pretty confident in my guess for the Ambassador's BOff layout.

    That'd be more or less my guess too; though I'm thinking that Ensign slot might be Eng instead of Uni. Kind of the opposite of the Excelsior-R.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    capnmanx wrote: »
    That'd be more or less my guess too; though I'm thinking that Ensign slot might be Eng instead of Uni. Kind of the opposite of the Excelsior-R.

    I dunno. I figure, if I'm wrong about the Ens. Univ, it's because they give it a Lt. Univ and Ens. Eng instead. I'm sticking to my guns on the Ens. Univ, personally, but I won't be surprised if they do it that way.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    rumblep wrote: »
    Oddy is still garbage, 25th century garbage or 24th whats the difference. In all honesty all these ships are garbage. Pixels=garbage

    cant hold em in your hands, cant sell em for profit. I've yet to see you contribute anything to the conversation in this thread that wasn't negative. just a thought.

    I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic. What you're proposing simply isn't. And as such I must say so. Hate me if you must, but the devil will have his say.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • edited January 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Speaking of the Excelsior, would it be dumb to buy the T3 version just for it's console?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • variant37variant37 Member Posts: 867 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    xigbarg wrote: »
    Speaking of the Excelsior, would it be dumb to buy the T3 version just for it's console?

    Seems like it'd be a waste of one of your precious console slots. The transwarp abilities are all built into the higher-level Excelsiors so the only thing you'd really be gaining would be a a faster transwarp cooldown (yay?) and a bump to warpcore efficiency, which is a dubious thing to begin with. Here is what the wiki has to say about that skill:

    Due to the way in which this skill applies its bonus (only when a subsystem power level is at less than 75, increasing incrementally the lower the current power level in that subsystem), Captains should weigh up carefully the value of this skill before committing large numbers of skill points to it. Only subsystems which consistently run at low power levels will receive a worthwhile bonus.
  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I would much rather have Tac or Uni than Eng for ensign. but that's probably not just me. I'm sick of Ensign Engineering. Until we get MORE Ensign abilities for Engineering **** that. I don't want to use Emergancy Power To Pimps and Hoes 1. I'd rather have Transfer Shield Strength or Tacteam.

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  • edited January 2013
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I was actually hoping a fleet version would have 2 Tac consoles, 4 Eng consoles, 4 Science Consoles.

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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    okay, taking a stab at this based on some of the commentary...

    Hull: 35,000
    Turn:9
    +5 weps, +5 Engine, +5 Aux
    Shield Mult:1.0

    Weaps:
    4 Front, 4 Rear

    B.Off:
    CDR eng.
    LTC Tac
    LTC Sci
    ENS:Uni

    Consoles:
    3 Sci
    3 Tac
    4 eng

    Items: 4



    Done. 11 stations, 1 Universal, bog-standard stats over-all. this ship predates the Galaxy, so there are fewer chairs that do more...proportionally, and 10 consoles per the usual practice with T5 ships Fedside.

    This also leaves development room for a Z-store variation with either more staitons, or a 'special ability' and more hull/shield/etc.

    The basic stats focus it as more of an engineering ride-engines and aux, which are both key elements of a healer, and the uni console allows a certain level of customization without going over-board on the 'free' version. For a 12 console Z/C-store variation, you'd just expand the Uni to a Lt. and you're effectively done there, too, for a triple-pack, you shuffle the 10th console around.

    Room to grow, without sucking rocks.

    Gonna say no. For the simple reason: Double LtCmdr = NO. Turn rate is a little too high. Bring it down to 8 or 7.5. Other than that, you're fine.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    So many of you want Op as hell ambassadors. Do any of you PVP at all or do you find fun in fighting TRIBBLE NPCs? My ship has BALANCE. Yours are just overpowering I win button wannabes.

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  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Various thoughts:

    Hangar. Lol no. Unlike the Armitage, which was brand new, and the Vesta, which is both soft canon (and therefor leaving some wiggle room for features) and having had a launch deck of sorts in its source material, the Ambassador is hard canon and has never shown or been mentioned to have ant fighter carrying capability outside of what you could shove into its shuttle bay. Same as every other ship that isn't a flight deck ship. They won't put a hangar on it. I will eat a hat if this thing has a hangar.

    Any future hangar-equipped Fed Cruiser will either be a wholly original design or a new design based on an existing ship, I guarantee you.

    Oddball BOff seating arrangements. We haven't seen a weird BOff seating setup outside of the KDF carriers. Everything else falls into a fairly predictable setup. They aren't going to change the status quo for a lousy Ambassador.

    Variant Three-Pack. Highly unlikely, but of everything on this list, the least impossible. This ship, though clearly having a vocal fan following, isn't as cloudy in role as the Vesta, isn't a new ship with no solidly defiined role like the Odyssey, and is absolutely a niche interest ship. It would make more sense to set it up solidly as an Eng/Sci to fill in an existing gap in Cruiser designs, with its spread of things geared towards survivability rather than offense.

    A C-store version would probably have a little more bite to it, though, since Cryptic seems well aware that Eng/Sci isn't a well-favored class combo. I'd expect 4 Eng/3 Sci/3 Tac consoles on the T5.5 version.
  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    variant37 wrote: »
    Seems like it'd be a waste of one of your precious console slots. The transwarp abilities are all built into the higher-level Excelsiors so the only thing you'd really be gaining would be a a faster transwarp cooldown (yay?) and a bump to warpcore efficiency, which is a dubious thing to begin with.

    Many thanks.
    So many of you want Op as hell ambassadors. Do any of you PVP at all or do you find fun in fighting TRIBBLE NPCs? My ship has BALANCE. Yours are just overpowering I win button wannabes.

    Hey, I just feel that it should be an in between of the Excelsior and the Galaxy. Not some Oddy variant even though it would technically be a ship made in 2400 standards. So technically it can be as powerful as it wants barring the limits of it's design and structure. No hangers though. That's not what the federation is about.

    As for PvP ships. It would be an interesting thing to see made. If they can make a separate mode, limit the types of ships and what could be brought it. It could become somewhat balanced and competitive.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    My idea is Balanced. I have a nice case of Samual Adam's for Geko ready if this comes true.

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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    as for those other skins. I wouldn't mind them but the original is always best for me. I hope the tattoos fit perfectly for whatever I mix it with.

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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Hey look im bumping this again


    My first post in this thread is the only good one a lot of people agree with. I hope the devs listen.

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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I think this thread should more about what the ambassador SHOULD NOT be...and that is simple...it should not be better as Galaxy-R. I admit, will be hell of work, to do even worse ship than the STO famous failaxy.
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  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I thought we covered most of it? Starting with the 2 lt cmd boff man.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I think this thread should more about what the ambassador SHOULD NOT be...and that is simple...it should not be better as Galaxy-R. I admit, will be hell of work, to do even worse ship than the STO famous failaxy.

    And this is where we're stuck at an impasse: an Ambassador-R (T5 incarnation) should be better than the Excelsior-R and weaker than the Galaxy-R...except that the game is rigged since the Excelsior-R is already stronger than the Galaxy-R.
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