Implying the Tor'Kaht can't get Mk XII cannons? Because I've got Mk XII DHCs on mine..
Tor'Kaht is also a 10-console boat (4 tac, 4 eng, 2 sci), has 4 aft weapons--4 turrets translates directly into frontal firepower--doesn't lose a console to a gimmicky point-defense system, has an integrated cloak, has a higher shield modifier then the HEC, and it's turning is nearly as good, has the flexibility of a Lt. universal slot..
So so jealous of that ship. *looks at rank 1.2 starbase* Ah well, I'll need the ranking up time to afford the modules anyway.
And the Odyssey has a greater hull strength, greater shield power, and the potential to equip a detachable saucer section, a powerful destroyer, and self repair drones. So instead of one ship, you could command three.
It can't mount dual cannons, it turns like a boat, even in it's tactical form has inferior tactical abilities (consoles and BOFF slots, unless you use the Lt.Cmdr uni for tac, which is wasted on a cruiser)..Odyssey's shields are only slightly better then the Tor'Kaht's (Mostly coming from the 0.05 higher modifier), and it's just all around a typical cruiser with some pets.
The Tor'Kaht is still the tactically-superior ship and can project it's firepower a whole hell of a lot better.
No, someone needs to kill J'mpok because he would rather make friends with the green-blooded Romulan petaQ'pu rather than conquer them. This 'war' with the Federation is a joke, more like a cold war. J'mpok is making friends with Romulans rather than subjugating them once and for all, and appropriating their technology. For that alone, he needs to be deposed.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
No, someone needs to kill J'mpok because he would rather make friends with the green-blooded Romulan petaQ'pu rather than conquer them. This 'war' with the Federation is a joke, more like a cold war. J'mpok is making friends with Romulans rather than subjugating them once and for all, and appropriating their technology. For that alone, he needs to be deposed.
This is the only true Klingon reply in this entire thread.
?No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts.?
?Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time.?
?Conflict makes us Klingons. Combat makes us strong, I write my story with my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies.?
All direct quotes from J'Mpok.
? sounds like Klingon honor to me?
Ah yes have pirates join your ranks, and become the puppets of the Orions....yes very Klingon very honorable.
"A leader is judged not by the length of his reign but by the decisions he makes." Kahless
No, someone needs to kill J'mpok because he would rather make friends with the green-blooded Romulan petaQ'pu rather than conquer them. This 'war' with the Federation is a joke, more like a cold war. J'mpok is making friends with Romulans rather than subjugating them once and for all, and appropriating their technology. For that alone, he needs to be deposed.
I disagree with the Fed war being a joke, but I admit myself that something is wrong with letting the Rommies settle on what is clearly Klingon Empire territory without either joining the KDF coalition forces or paying homage to the Empire like everyone else. The Romulans are at a disadvantage and it is non-Klingon to exploit that disadvantage for the good of the Empire.
This was my grievance with Martok as well. Everything was negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. He would have never made a first strike against the Federation, but J'Mpok did after giving them a time frame for evacuating Cestus III. Not to mention that the fighting was spread out in several system along the Federation and Klingon fronts. What has happened since the initial fighting has broken out has brought tears to my eyes just thinking about it, lol...
Yeah, it has turned into a cold war mostly, and that is shameful.
Well, let?s look solely at the facts that we are given about J?Mpok, for acedemic purposes.
Had Martok come out of that room instead of J?Mpok, we would not have the Gorn Hedgemony, Letheans, Nausicaans, or Orions as part of the KDF.
He did spare Drex and allow him to stay at the head of the House of Martok. He did allow Worf to stay in the Empire instead of leave it permanently.
His leadership showed the Federation the infiltration of Species 8472 into the Gorn Hedgemony when even the Federation and Gorn couldn?t believe it themselves.
It is the Federation President that is begging for the war to end and stop the bloodshed, not J?Mpok. He did not follow in the same path of negotiation with the Federation as Martok continually did.
The only thing that I don?t understand is how J?Mpok could have let the Romulans settle in the Narendra system considering all the trouble it has casued the Empire to hold onto it.
As far as the Duras vs. Martok conflict, we will have to wait and see. But I ask you, how could a warrior that has accomplished all these things possibly fall to a someone like Drex?
No, I say we leave J'Mpok since he is making our Empire strong!
On the House of Martok vs House of Duras, I'll just post the little tidbit from Star Trek Magazine. The profile was written by Christine Thompson, aka Kestrel, of Cryptic Studios.
His foster father Torg was discommendated after this plot to use Romulan assassins to attack the House or Martok was uncovered, but Ja'rod beleives that Torg hired the assassins under Jm'pok's orders and that J'mpok let Torg take the fall rather than eveal his own duplicity. The balance o power on Qo'noS has shifted and some even say that Ja'rod is preparing to challenge J'mpok for the leadership of the High Council.
After reading it and all of the back story and KDF mission text, I got a feelng that J'mpok defated Martok in less than honorable combat. I got a Gowron vibe from J'mpok after my KDF character uncovered the assassination plot. After reading the Ja'rod profile, I do believe that Ja'rod's suspicions are absolute correct.
J'mpok's hold on power is slim. He's a odds with the House of Martok. If the House of Matrok just happen to fall, J'mpok's would cement his power base. I find it highly credible that J'mpok would resort to dishonorable means to take out the House of Martok.
But J'mpoks hold on he Chancellorship depends on the support of the House of Duras. If that support vanishes, Jm'pok's fall is just a matter of time. With two of the Greater Houses against him, J'mpok may not go out quietly.
?No longer will we die the death of a thousand cuts.?
?Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time.?
?Conflict makes us Klingons. Combat makes us strong, I write my story with my blade, and the ink is the blood of my enemies.?
All direct quotes from J'Mpok.
? sounds like Klingon honor to me?
He uses the blood of Klingon Warriors to cover his own dishonor and weakness. Just as Chancellor Gowron did to cement his hold on power against Martok.
J'mpok may not be the Chancellor the Empire needs, in terms of his conduct during the war, but I don't think he's an Undine. Now, the Federation Council, maybe even the President, that's where the top Undine are hanging out. It makes sense really, the Klingons start going after the Undine in a big way, but their Federation allies are suddenly condemning them, and working against them, even though they are also aware of the danger posed by the Undine. Several Federation story missions show that the Undine seem to have infiltrated the highest levels of Starfleet Command (Admiral Zelle, for instance). I think that we'll actually see Jarod turn out to be the saviour of the galaxy, and at some point we'll see missions where the player teams up with Jarod to reveal the extent of the Undine infiltration of the Federation. With their Undine stooges finally exposed, this is when the Iconians (who have been manipulating the Undine from the start, or so the current final story mission implies) make their major appearance.
I think that further proof that the Empire is right, and the Federation is being controlled, is the conduct of Worf. This is a man who twice turned down the Empire in favour of the Federation, even at great personal cost to himself and his family. His adopted father, Martok, is dead and replaced by his enemy. The House of Duras is once again on the rise. And yet, where is he? On Qo'nos, having abandoned the Federation and cut his ties with it. Clearly he has some really good reasons for leaving behind his entire life to live in a society he has repeatedly rejected in the past.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
J'mpok may not be the Chancellor the Empire needs, in terms of his conduct during the war, but I don't think he's an Undine. Now, the Federation Council, maybe even the President, that's where the top Undine are hanging out. It makes sense really, the Klingons start going after the Undine in a big way, but their Federation allies are suddenly condemning them, and working against them, even though they are also aware of the danger posed by the Undine. Several Federation story missions show that the Undine seem to have infiltrated the highest levels of Starfleet Command (Admiral Zelle, for instance). I think that we'll actually see Jarod turn out to be the saviour of the galaxy, and at some point we'll see missions where the player teams up with Jarod to reveal the extent of the Undine infiltration of the Federation. With their Undine stooges finally exposed, this is when the Iconians (who have been manipulating the Undine from the start, or so the current final story mission implies) make their major appearance.
I think that further proof that the Empire is right, and the Federation is being controlled, is the conduct of Worf. This is a man who twice turned down the Empire in favour of the Federation, even at great personal cost to himself and his family. His adopted father, Martok, is dead and replaced by his enemy. The House of Duras is once again on the rise. And yet, where is he? On Qo'nos, having abandoned the Federation and cut his ties with it. Clearly he has some really good reasons for leaving behind his entire life to live in a society he has repeatedly rejected in the past.
I agree that J?Mpok might be passed his prime, especially now that he has let the Romulans settle in Klingon territory. You bring up an interesting point about Ja?rod and the House of Duras rising to power again, including Chancellor of the High Command. That story has a lot of possibilities and I like it!
Worf and the House of Martok are too much like the Federation for most Klingons, so their time is limited.
I don?t think that the Klingon Empire has a Undine infestation problem. They invaded the Gorn Hegemony to root out the ones that were there. It would serve no purpose for the Undine to impersonate members of the KDF or High Council since it is Klingon nature to fight already. Their entire society is based on warrior traditions. The Undine would need to use this to their advantage.
If I were Undine, I would want my doppelgangers in military positions of the most powerful coalition in the galaxy (UFP) so that they could influence the leadership to make bad choices. I would need to wear them down by making them conquer the other factions, i.e.: the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians, etc. Then I would just wait them out and strike when they were at their weakest. You can?t take a faction as a whole by impersonating it?s highest leaders. You need them to fight and consume their resources. And you surely aren?t going to take the UFP by impersonating Okeg.
The Tor'Kaht is still the tactically-superior ship and can project it's firepower a whole hell of a lot better.
[/QUOTE]
And my Odyssey has taken on two Borg Cubes back to back in an Elite STF without any support and won without dieing. It has also outlasted the Queen's ship with only a Vulcan ship in support. Can your Tor'Kaht do that? The Odyssey is not designed for firepower. It's designed for endurance and to outlast anything else on the battlefield. I can fight the Queen with one other ship and not die. Can you last that long?
No, someone needs to kill J'mpok because he would rather make friends with the green-blooded Romulan petaQ'pu rather than conquer them. This 'war' with the Federation is a joke, more like a cold war. J'mpok is making friends with Romulans rather than subjugating them once and for all, and appropriating their technology. For that alone, he needs to be deposed.
Thank you! Now is the perfect time for that. The Romulan Empire is on the verge of collapse. With the loss of Romulus, the destruction of their Armada and Borgification facilities, the weakening of the Tal'Shiar and the disappearance of the Empress and the resulting civil war, the Romulan Empire is at it's weakest. Their military is virtually depleted and they need to turn to the Remans, Starfleet, and the KDF for protection. Yet J'Mpok would befriend this declawed cat out of fear of the Federation. How in the Galaxy is that tactically sound.
The Chancellor's incompetence goes further back than I initially suspected. In 2388, J'Mpok lead a fleet into Romulan space against the orders of then Chancellor Martok. He was defeated by "Traitor" Taris using Iconian technology. So he disobeyed a direct order from the Chancellor, started a war which he LOST!, and new about the Iconian connection with the Tal'Shiar for twenty years and did NOTHING! How many fleets must join the 7th in Stovo'kor due to his stupidity. During his ill conceived and failed attempt to take Starbase 24, the 7th fleet lost four carriers including it's commanding general, fifteen battleships, twenty battlecruisers, thirty raptors and fifty bird of preys. Does he reinforce the 7th? Give the fleet time to rest and rebuild? NO! He sends them on a counterattack against the Borg and they get wiped out! Klingon players, in the name of our Quadrant, I beg you kill the Chancellor. His incompetence will not only cost you your empire, it will cost us all the galaxy.
He attacks Starbase 24 every day with the same losses, he picks things up very slowly.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
J'Mpok may have a capable group of assassins that keep his detractors in line. History is full of examples of incompetent leaders who stayed in power by killing off the competition.
Or maybe how much actual power J'Mpok has is debatable, he may be allowed to stay in power by the other houses because a more capable leader would interfere in their plans, Klingons may profess honor and loyalty to excess, but a lot of their covert dealings don't bear close examination.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Plot armor dictates he can't die before being outed as an Undine infiltrator.
That is assuming that he IS an Undine. He could just be an incompetent buffoon, poor tactician, and overall idiot. The 7th fleet is gone. The 5th and 6th fleets are crippled due to heavy losses on the Federation front. Now he is deploying his already overstretched forces to protect Romulan space while still fighting the Federation, the Borg, the Undine, the Fek'Iri and the Rebel forces (Gorn, Nausican and Klingon). Starfleet is getting stronger with newer, more advanced warships replacing the old pre-war crates and superior weapons and equipment reverse engineered from Borg technology. J'Mpok is leading the Empire to ruin. This cannot be allowed. If the Empire falls, then the Borg, Undine, or Iconians will gain a major foothold in the galaxy. A worse case scenario would be the Borg conquering the Empire, because then they would have assimilated four major civilizations and every race and world under their banner. There's no way to compensate for that kind of an advantage:eek: J'Mpok must DIE!!!
And my Odyssey has taken on two Borg Cubes back to back in an Elite STF without any support and won without dieing. It has also outlasted the Queen's ship with only a Vulcan ship in support. Can your Tor'Kaht do that? The Odyssey is not designed for firepower. It's designed for endurance and to outlast anything else on the battlefield. I can fight the Queen with one other ship and not die. Can you last that long?
Barring an invisible torp crit, yes. And put out more damage while doing it. And that's just with a purple [cap]x2 [reg] covariant. Don't even have any rep gear on it yet. I've seen Tor'Kahts with the KHG shield, lots of resist stacking and a good boff layout become effectively invincible in ESTFs, again, barring an invisible torp crit.
The defensive capabilities of the Odyssey and Tor'Kaht aren't that different, while the difference in offensive capabilities is massive. So while it might not be quite as tanky as an Odyssey, it doesn't need to be, because it can kill what it's tanking a whole hell of a lot faster.
No. He decided against it because of the little matter of genocide.
He was rescued from the Collective.
Genocide? That would imply the Borg are some sort of species when all they are is a cruel and evil parasite. If you can't save its victims you should at least seek justice for them (good old fashioned revenge, no amount of utopian good vibes will EVER take that away from us homo sapien types!) and to protect any future victims.
I'm not arguing the ethics of the 'genocide', I would wipe them all out in Picards place, but he chose not to.
.
I think most fans of TNG understand that the writers loved to manufacture moral crisis out of what would be common sense decisions. All too often Picard had to be an idiot for the sake of the plot and the manufactured drama.
Thankfully DS9 had a lot fewer instances where the captain had to be a total moron thinking he was high minded when in reality he was being an idiot.
Genocide doesn't specifically refer to an entire species being wiped out. It could also be a culture or group of people being wiped out.
The holocaust is often referred to as genocide, as was the American "taming of the West", along with Saddam Hussein's subjugation of the Kurds, and many other examples thruout human history.
J'mpok isn't an Undine, his entire platform is the eradication of the Undine. I don't think he's with the Tal Shiar either, given his support of the New Romulus cause. That said, the only thing keeping him in power is his support with the Orions. If he would get over himself and stop the war with the Federation, then he could devote himself to fighting the Borg and the Undine, but that isn't going to happen because he's the one who advocated fighting the Federation in the first place. I almost wonder if his support for New Romulus is his way of gently ending the war with the Federation without looking like the idiot he is.
As for Q'uinn, I don't think he's an Undine, but that one is a little less black-and-white. Still, you'd think Section 31 would have figured out that Starfleet's top admiral was an imposter if he was.
Comments
So so jealous of that ship. *looks at rank 1.2 starbase* Ah well, I'll need the ranking up time to afford the modules anyway.
It can't mount dual cannons, it turns like a boat, even in it's tactical form has inferior tactical abilities (consoles and BOFF slots, unless you use the Lt.Cmdr uni for tac, which is wasted on a cruiser)..Odyssey's shields are only slightly better then the Tor'Kaht's (Mostly coming from the 0.05 higher modifier), and it's just all around a typical cruiser with some pets.
The Tor'Kaht is still the tactically-superior ship and can project it's firepower a whole hell of a lot better.
It's worth it. Driving the Tor'Kaht gives me tingles. It makes ESTFs easy...
This is the only true Klingon reply in this entire thread.
Ah yes have pirates join your ranks, and become the puppets of the Orions....yes very Klingon very honorable.
"A leader is judged not by the length of his reign but by the decisions he makes." Kahless
And J'Mpok has made some bad mistakes.
I disagree with the Fed war being a joke, but I admit myself that something is wrong with letting the Rommies settle on what is clearly Klingon Empire territory without either joining the KDF coalition forces or paying homage to the Empire like everyone else. The Romulans are at a disadvantage and it is non-Klingon to exploit that disadvantage for the good of the Empire.
This was my grievance with Martok as well. Everything was negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. He would have never made a first strike against the Federation, but J'Mpok did after giving them a time frame for evacuating Cestus III. Not to mention that the fighting was spread out in several system along the Federation and Klingon fronts. What has happened since the initial fighting has broken out has brought tears to my eyes just thinking about it, lol...
Yeah, it has turned into a cold war mostly, and that is shameful.
On the House of Martok vs House of Duras, I'll just post the little tidbit from Star Trek Magazine. The profile was written by Christine Thompson, aka Kestrel, of Cryptic Studios.
After reading it and all of the back story and KDF mission text, I got a feelng that J'mpok defated Martok in less than honorable combat. I got a Gowron vibe from J'mpok after my KDF character uncovered the assassination plot. After reading the Ja'rod profile, I do believe that Ja'rod's suspicions are absolute correct.
J'mpok's hold on power is slim. He's a odds with the House of Martok. If the House of Matrok just happen to fall, J'mpok's would cement his power base. I find it highly credible that J'mpok would resort to dishonorable means to take out the House of Martok.
But J'mpoks hold on he Chancellorship depends on the support of the House of Duras. If that support vanishes, Jm'pok's fall is just a matter of time. With two of the Greater Houses against him, J'mpok may not go out quietly.
He uses the blood of Klingon Warriors to cover his own dishonor and weakness. Just as Chancellor Gowron did to cement his hold on power against Martok.
1. Fed mission to infiltrate Qo'noS and kill the Undine J'Mpock
2. Klingon mission to infiltrate ESD and kill the Undine Quinn
I think that further proof that the Empire is right, and the Federation is being controlled, is the conduct of Worf. This is a man who twice turned down the Empire in favour of the Federation, even at great personal cost to himself and his family. His adopted father, Martok, is dead and replaced by his enemy. The House of Duras is once again on the rise. And yet, where is he? On Qo'nos, having abandoned the Federation and cut his ties with it. Clearly he has some really good reasons for leaving behind his entire life to live in a society he has repeatedly rejected in the past.
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
I agree that J?Mpok might be passed his prime, especially now that he has let the Romulans settle in Klingon territory. You bring up an interesting point about Ja?rod and the House of Duras rising to power again, including Chancellor of the High Command. That story has a lot of possibilities and I like it!
Worf and the House of Martok are too much like the Federation for most Klingons, so their time is limited.
I don?t think that the Klingon Empire has a Undine infestation problem. They invaded the Gorn Hegemony to root out the ones that were there. It would serve no purpose for the Undine to impersonate members of the KDF or High Council since it is Klingon nature to fight already. Their entire society is based on warrior traditions. The Undine would need to use this to their advantage.
If I were Undine, I would want my doppelgangers in military positions of the most powerful coalition in the galaxy (UFP) so that they could influence the leadership to make bad choices. I would need to wear them down by making them conquer the other factions, i.e.: the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians, etc. Then I would just wait them out and strike when they were at their weakest. You can?t take a faction as a whole by impersonating it?s highest leaders. You need them to fight and consume their resources. And you surely aren?t going to take the UFP by impersonating Okeg.
The Tor'Kaht is still the tactically-superior ship and can project it's firepower a whole hell of a lot better.
[/QUOTE]
And my Odyssey has taken on two Borg Cubes back to back in an Elite STF without any support and won without dieing. It has also outlasted the Queen's ship with only a Vulcan ship in support. Can your Tor'Kaht do that? The Odyssey is not designed for firepower. It's designed for endurance and to outlast anything else on the battlefield. I can fight the Queen with one other ship and not die. Can you last that long?
Thank you! Now is the perfect time for that. The Romulan Empire is on the verge of collapse. With the loss of Romulus, the destruction of their Armada and Borgification facilities, the weakening of the Tal'Shiar and the disappearance of the Empress and the resulting civil war, the Romulan Empire is at it's weakest. Their military is virtually depleted and they need to turn to the Remans, Starfleet, and the KDF for protection. Yet J'Mpok would befriend this declawed cat out of fear of the Federation. How in the Galaxy is that tactically sound.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Just saying
Or maybe how much actual power J'Mpok has is debatable, he may be allowed to stay in power by the other houses because a more capable leader would interfere in their plans, Klingons may profess honor and loyalty to excess, but a lot of their covert dealings don't bear close examination.
That is assuming that he IS an Undine. He could just be an incompetent buffoon, poor tactician, and overall idiot. The 7th fleet is gone. The 5th and 6th fleets are crippled due to heavy losses on the Federation front. Now he is deploying his already overstretched forces to protect Romulan space while still fighting the Federation, the Borg, the Undine, the Fek'Iri and the Rebel forces (Gorn, Nausican and Klingon). Starfleet is getting stronger with newer, more advanced warships replacing the old pre-war crates and superior weapons and equipment reverse engineered from Borg technology. J'Mpok is leading the Empire to ruin. This cannot be allowed. If the Empire falls, then the Borg, Undine, or Iconians will gain a major foothold in the galaxy. A worse case scenario would be the Borg conquering the Empire, because then they would have assimilated four major civilizations and every race and world under their banner. There's no way to compensate for that kind of an advantage:eek: J'Mpok must DIE!!!
Barring an invisible torp crit, yes. And put out more damage while doing it. And that's just with a purple [cap]x2 [reg] covariant. Don't even have any rep gear on it yet. I've seen Tor'Kahts with the KHG shield, lots of resist stacking and a good boff layout become effectively invincible in ESTFs, again, barring an invisible torp crit.
The defensive capabilities of the Odyssey and Tor'Kaht aren't that different, while the difference in offensive capabilities is massive. So while it might not be quite as tanky as an Odyssey, it doesn't need to be, because it can kill what it's tanking a whole hell of a lot faster.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Genocide? That would imply the Borg are some sort of species when all they are is a cruel and evil parasite. If you can't save its victims you should at least seek justice for them (good old fashioned revenge, no amount of utopian good vibes will EVER take that away from us homo sapien types!) and to protect any future victims.
I think most fans of TNG understand that the writers loved to manufacture moral crisis out of what would be common sense decisions. All too often Picard had to be an idiot for the sake of the plot and the manufactured drama.
Thankfully DS9 had a lot fewer instances where the captain had to be a total moron thinking he was high minded when in reality he was being an idiot.
The holocaust is often referred to as genocide, as was the American "taming of the West", along with Saddam Hussein's subjugation of the Kurds, and many other examples thruout human history.
Cultural genocide is still genocide.
Troy was a Genocide (ordered in council and carried out)
The Borg are not a culture
they are Ebola with legs
so why didnt the all mighty vulcans destroy the borg then, they are as much involved in this as the federation is.
of course Tuvok is guilty
but there are few Vulcans involved
I am personally (with my Vulcan persona) trying VERY hard to wipe out the Borg entirely
As for Q'uinn, I don't think he's an Undine, but that one is a little less black-and-white. Still, you'd think Section 31 would have figured out that Starfleet's top admiral was an imposter if he was.