This would not bother me iether since some soft canon Ive read described the Andorians as still using drones in combat.
I hate the idea of yet more pets though
Its been free hanger day for Cryptic lately, all the latest ships have one, save for steam runner.
Honestly IF the andy ship turns out to be a flight deck cruiser equivilant.. aND if it equips cannons.. they'd seriously need to give orion peanut cannons as well at least. :<
Which isn't a bad thing, peanut needs some srs love with cannon equippable.
Its been free hanger day for Cryptic lately, all the latest ships have one, save for steam runner.
Honestly IF the andy ship turns out to be a flight deck cruiser equivilant.. aND if it equips cannons.. they'd seriously need to give orion peanut cannons as well at least. :<
Which isn't a bad thing, peanut needs some srs love with cannon equippable.
If it goes that route they will most likely just copy/paste the Heavy Escort Carrier to save effort.
Which would be a sad thing in my opinion.
I'n all strict and regular cannon Starfleet has never
Built or used (fighters)
Fighters I'n all star trek cannon are expendable
Resources just like firing a torpedo
Starfleet has never used it's personal this way
The Klingons never used them either but there
Racial beliefs would allow them too if they wished
And remember STO is soft/ soft serve cannon
So they can do almost anything they want to
if you are going strictly by canon, the KDF has no fighters that I can recall. the federation has fighters but a carrier has never been seen.
there is an argument that the fighters seen in DS9 were launched from the larger ships like the galaxies, at the expense of their runabouts and shuttles. either that or the peregrines have a warp capability like an X-wing, but that has never been seen and they don't seem to have warp core breaches
Nope. Unless it comes with free Orion strippers (and a pheromone blocker), AND a free booze bar with your own complimentary Guinan, still not interested.
there is an argument that the fighters seen in DS9 were launched from the larger ships like the galaxies, at the expense of their runabouts and shuttles. either that or the peregrines have a warp capability like an X-wing, but that has never been seen and they don't seem to have warp core breaches
Well the strange thing about the Peregrines is that whenever a fleet was sent out, the fighters were in formation with the bigger ships.
This makes absolutely no sense if they require transportation...unless the fleet gets underway, THEN recovers the fighters and goes to warp.
Also the Maquis used the exact same type of ships and unless they were only operating within the same solar system the entire time, these ships (that are the size of a Boeing 737) must be FTL-capable.
And they have those blue-glowing thingies with the red thingies at the front the larger ships use for Warp as well.;)
It's a matter of speed and range. Shuttles are all warp capable, but most of the time they're not used as independent craft because of a reduced operational range and lower warp speeds than their parent ships can attain. The same would hold true for fighters, but fighter doctrine is probably to launch them outside of combat because you have to drop shields for them launch and land.
And all this is, of course, ignoring the effect production and vfx budgets would have had on decisions to actually show these things.
It's a matter of speed and range. Shuttles are all warp capable, but most of the time they're not used as independent craft because of a reduced operational range and lower warp speeds than their parent ships can attain. The same would hold true for fighters, but fighter doctrine is probably to launch them outside of combat because you have to drop shields for them launch and land.
And all this is, of course, ignoring the effect production and vfx budgets would have had on decisions to actually show these things.
But it makes no sense to launch them before you even leave.
Unless there is no actual need to carry them inside your hangar bays to bring them with you.
Just cluster a bunch of them around each capital ship and carry them inside the ship's warp field.
It's not something we haven't seen before, the Galaxy could carry its saucer in a detatched state inside the warp field.
On "Enterprise", Columbia managed to carry her own sister ship inside her own field.
Think 200 years further and think about the enormous size difference between a Galaxy and a bunch of fighters.
And we know from the DS9TM that Runabouts (that are actually smaller than Peregrines) have an operational range of 2 weeks.
That's more than enough range for what we've seen them do with these fighters.
On the operation range of Runabouts vs. Fighters - you have to take into consideration mission profiles.
Runabouts were not designed as combatant craft though they are fairly well armed for a ship their size. Their primary purpose is as utility craft and so their operational range will be designed and stated with that purpose in mind. Fighters are combat craft and combat is hard on a ship whether it's depletion of fuel from high output engines running at max, expended munitions, battle damage, or the drain of running high powered weapons. It's operation range will be designed and stated with that in mind.
In other words, even if a fighter might be able to operate in non-combat conditions for longer period of time than even a runabout it's operational range is going to be looked at from a combat perspective because that's what it's designed and built to do. Similarly a Runabout may have an even lower operation range than a fighter when looked at from a combat perspective because it's not designed and built for combat but it's operational range will be stated as being higher than a fighter's because it's intended for non-combat uses.
As to your complaint of them launching fighters before leaving - was there ever any indication of how far away from the battle they were? I could see them launching before leaving if it was only a few hours away. That actually makes sense. If they stop just outside the system then there's a very good chance that the enemy's fleet will warp in and pound them to paste while they're launching fighters. If it's days away though...yeah no real sense in launching that early.
As to your complaint of them launching fighters before leaving - was there ever any indication of how far away from the battle they were? I could see them launching before leaving if it was only a few hours away. That actually makes sense. If they stop just outside the system then there's a very good chance that the enemy's fleet will warp in and pound them to paste while they're launching fighters. If it's days away though...yeah no real sense in launching that early.
I don't think they ever made the timeframe clear.
We do know for example that in "Favor the Bold", when they send Morn to to warn Starfleet the Dominion is 1 week away from blowing the minefield and we know Sisko and the Defiant arrive just as they actually do it.
Unless Morn took forever to warn them, they must have been underway for quite some time.
And we also know that by the time they encounter the Dominion Fleet sent to intercept them, 11 ships had to leave the formation due to engine damage.
Unless those ships were in an incredibly bad state in the first place this makes absolutely no sense.
And there is something else to consider:
Let's assume you're right and a fighter's maximum sustainable Warp speed is pretty low...we know time was crucial...the fighters must have slowed them down when they were deployed the whole time...sorry I got nothing there.
Unless the fighters were really pulled along in the bigger ship's waprfield I think leaving the fighers out is the stupidest thing the could do, particularly since they seemed to have had several minutes after they detected the enemy fleet to get their fighters ready...
1) Using Morn as a courier meant that the fleet had less than a week to get there as it would have taken Morn some time to get to a position where he could relay the information, and the fleet had to prepare. Being generous and saying it only took Morn a few hours to get the information to them they'd have, at most (I'd estimate ) six days to reach the station due to logistical issues mobilizing the fleet.
2) The week figure was an estimate the fleet could have arrived half-way through the given period or a month later and it would still be "just in time" depending on whether the Cardassians were lucky or not. Using it as an absolute time-frame isn't a good idea, though it's understandable as that's the only real time-reference we have.
Looking at "top speeds" when I talk about those I'm talking about cruising speeds which is a ship's leisurely power-conserving speeds. Most non-cruiser (a.k.a. combat) ships have cruising speeds of between Warp 6 and 7 according to Memory Alpha (where it lists them anyway) and "sprint" speeds of around Warp 8-9. However, these are "safe" practices that keep the engines in good condition and fuel consumption more or less efficient. If you're willing to burn fuel, overstress your engines, and potentially fly your ship to pieces you can just keep feeding power into your engines and attain speeds far faster than is considered safe or even possible by the designers (possibly up to Warp 9.999 even). It's a classic Sci-Fi thing :P (and has been done in Trek on a few occassions though I can't recall absolute numbers being given).
There's also the fact that the screen shots of the fleet on Memory Alpha look like stock footage which means that the writers likely never even made such considerations.
I'm okay with a fed cruiser/carrier ship. Heck the Tactical Odyssey with its Aqurius Destroyer practically is one, especially if you max out boarding party as well.
Just don't call it a flight deck cruiser, call it something different.
I have a feeling the K'vort which people suggest maybe the kdf annverisary ship might end up being a Raptor/Carrier. Just a guess.
You mean like this freeze-frame where you can clearly see a single pilot in the cockpit of a single-seat fighter?
That ship is nowhere near the size of a Danube. Hell, I'd say it's smaller then a Type 11 Shuttle..and it's most certainly smaller then the Scout data piloted in Insurrection and the Raider used by the Maquis..
klingons have sci ships as feds have carriers we both pay zen for them. As for Fed cannon of carriers. Just because they dont name them carriers doesnt mean the ships where not modified to use as a carrier.
example 1 voyager carrier nelix's frigate/trader vessal and launched it. The Delta Flyer and modified shuttle craft which were used a few times in battle along with the main ship. Also Voyager has a small ship attached under the saucer which was never used so in essense thats 2 frigate size ships and the delta flyer and what 20 shuttle craft of differing types they used to fight along side the ship.
example 2 was in ds9 where they used fighters as part of galaxy wings.
example 3 was in tng when shuttle craft actually got into fights when not at the main ship. Granted not a true carrier but that proves that shuttles are able to fight.
On the topic of comparing ship to ship.
Voq'uv - atrox
FDC(klingon)-vesta
Kar'fi-armitage
personally i prefer the voq'uv since it has almost same survival but way better dps ability. plus it has Frigates over the atrox.
Vesta is a science version of the flight deck cruisers. personally i figure they are similar to each other.
Kar'fi is a full carrier but i feel its more the Heavy escort carrier that gives up turn rate to gain a extra hanger and gives up target subsystems for 7 weapons instead of 6. To me the kar'fi far out performs the armitage. Now klingons need the fleet version and im set.
As for adding a cruiser version of the carrier(eng) for fed then they would need to add a raptor carrier just TRIBBLE for tat. I personally could care less for the uniqueness arguement just merge the fed and klingons already via a story line already. I play my klingons more than my feds due to enjoying my kar'fi and voq'uv more. I dont own the vesta or the armitage mainly due to lack of funds and interest. I am still trying to find another ship klingon side to buy but so far i cant bring myself to buy a BoP. I like my carriers if they added the kar'fi as fleet ship all 3 of my captians would own in as soon as my fleet could get it. IMHO
Sirenbane@dlmystic Founder of Dominion-x
Sirensong@dlmystic LG of Guardians of stovokor
example 1 voyager carrier nelix's frigate/trader vessal and launched it. The Delta Flyer and modified shuttle craft which were used a few times in battle along with the main ship. Also Voyager has a small ship attached under the saucer which was never used so in essense thats 2 frigate size ships and the delta flyer and what 20 shuttle craft of differing types they used to fight along side the ship.
That doesn't make Voyager a carrier, that makes it a ship with embarking craft. Does the ability for a US Navy destroyer to carry a helicopter make it an aircraft carrier?
And the whole Delta Flyer thing's a joke. It's too big to even fit in Voyager's shuttle bay. Just one of many of that series' screwups.
And calling Voyager's aeroshuttle a "frigate" is a bit of a stretch, considering it's only about 30 meters long..Barely larger then a Danube. Plus there's no evidence that it's even armed..
Nova-class ships have their waverider shuttle, does that make them Frigate-carriers too? C'mon...
20 shuttles? An Intrepid could carry 4 shuttles in it's shuttlebay, along with 2 in it's maintenance bay.
So 6 warp-capable shuttles, a cargo shuttle, and 2 Bees. Hardly "20" combat-capable embarking craft on an Intrepid...
example 3 was in tng when shuttle craft actually got into fights when not at the main ship. Granted not a true carrier but that proves that shuttles are able to fight.
Shuttles have basic weapons, but that doesn't mean they're built for combat. We know that phasers are often used for utility as often as they are as weapons. A shuttle's weapons are for little more then self-defense. They are not offensive platforms by any means.
deference between can land on and carrier, can you carrier more than 4 air craft. when carriers were originally setup they had a few that used slingshot inclined launch systems that they planes would have to land in the water beside the ship. They called those carriers. As for only having 4 shuttle craft in 7 years 17 shuttles were destroyed. /shrug
A modern day destroyer can carry, maintain and store 2 helicopters.
An Intrepid-class ship is no more an "aircraft carrier" then an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. And nowhere is it stated that 4+ embarking craft makes you a carrier..
An aircraft carrier is a unit who's primary purpose in a task force is the launch and retrieval of aircraft.
The Federation has no dedicated carriers in the canon. Do they have ships capable of performing the role in limited means? Yes. Akira, for example--which, get this..is a carrier in the game..
Intrepid is not a carrier. No Federation ship in the canon is a dedicated carrier. Having a shuttlebay does not make you a carrier.
As for only having 4 shuttle craft in 7 years 17 shuttles were destroyed
Because they can replicate new ones? The only parts of a shuttle that cannot be replicated are the anti-matter, and the dilithium and the flight crew. Anything else can be replicated to replace losses.
First you sir are not me. I tend to love military history and naval vessals are one of the most interesting. World war 1 was when first aircraft carriers came out. They in fact could old 4-5 craft each. I used to spend my free time watching history on these ships. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Engadine_(1911) 4 seaplanes i described to you.
As for voyager replicating parts they had trouble with food replication why would they waste resources with parts. and also the torpedos couldnt be replicated either. Salvage and reuse i could see but she carried more than just 6 shuttle craft. I never said she was ment to do the job of a carrier, i implied she was modified as need to do so. Just as the first ships were modified to be air craft carriers in world war 1 out of need. /shrug know your past to plan your future.
The Galaxy Class starship's main shuttle bay was supposed to be large enough to accomodate large scale evacuation operations. Since a flight deck cruiser isn't supposed to be a true carrier I see no logical reason for such a ship to not have to ability to launch and recover a small compliment of fighters.
For example If you modified where the entry/exit ports on a galaxy class's main shuttle bay are located you could easily convert it into a through deck carrier like the akira. But with the main enterence as large as it is I also see no reason you could not support concurent landing\takeoff operations.
As far as balance is concerned I can already equip fighters on any ship I please through use of the device slots, the only thing adding a hangar slot would get me is cheeper fighters that, if I choose, will be slightly stronger and with more variety. True I can launch them faster but I can still only have 2 wing out at a time and since there is no frigate pet available to the federation then there can't be a significant boost in overall effectiveness.
IS it necessary for each side to have a version of somthing the other side has? No. Is it somthing everyone is going to ask for anyway? Probably. Will if make any real difference to 90% of the game? Nope. Will PVP be serioulsy affected? Only FvK matches and even then probably not much. Out of the entirety of available means of game play how much would such a thing actualy change anything? 1-2% maybe.
Maybe even make the galaxy class a more used option if it could launch fighters.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
"There was no flight deck, the aircraft being lowered onto the sea for takeoff and recovered again from the sea after landing."
Again, from your own link..
Engadine was no more an aircraft carrier then a Burke-class destroyer is an aircraft carrier. She was a seaplane tender.. Similar to the Japanese Oyodo-class, which were a class of light cruisers converted to handle seaplanes. This made them seaplane tenders, not aircraft carriers...
Bismarck could carry, store, maintain, launch and recover 4 Arado 196 seaplanes. Did that make Bismarck an aircraft carrier?
Hell, Yamato could carry, store maintain, launch and recover 7 seaplanes..Was Yamato an aircraft carrier?
Just to put this into perspective..
The first true aircraft carrier was HMS Argus. Argus could carry, store, maintain, launch and recover 15-18 aircraft from a flight deck, and carrying, storing, maintaining, launching and recovering those 15-18 aircraft were her only purpose in life..
As for voyager replicating parts they had trouble with food replication why would they waste resources with parts.
Because they weren't always low on supplies? There were times that they were, but there were also times when supplies didn't seem like a real concern. Having embarking craft on your 380-meter long ship is a pretty decent priority in itself...
and also the torpedos couldnt be replicated either.
Every part of a torpedo can be replicated except the anti-matter in it's warhead. That's why Voyager, a ship who's magazine could only carry 32 torpedoes, fired several hundred of them during the course of the show...
Also, most shuttles don't have torpedoes. Voyager's primary embarking craft were Type-9 shuttles, and they don't have integrated torpedo launchers of any type.
Not quite, was at about 20 days, not the requisite 30. But this thread really needs to go in some hole and die. It's a silly idea, and not ever going to happen.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Not quite, was at about 20 days, not the requisite 30. But this thread really needs to go in some hole and die. It's a silly idea, and not ever going to happen.
yeah. It would me neat but then again so would an equipable lance weapon.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
both have 5 unique ship classes; all 5 of the FEDs are tier 5, where as only 3 of the KDFs are tier 5
and you want MORE end game ships for FEDs?
"We are the Perfect World. Life as you know it is over. We will add your monetary distinctiveness to our own. Your player base will adapt to service us. Resistance is Futile."
Um... are you new to these forums? I feel I must ask, because if you weren't you would know that Feds have a seetech mentality. They see tech and they want it. :P
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Feds are on a seeeverythingtheydon'thavealready mentality. As in they see everything they don't have already and immediately cry about it and beg for it.
Thank you wunjee for pointing that out.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Hi yes I am new here, and untainted by the want for new ships and the desire to not share any of my toys.
This is also my first post ever so I am going to make myself sound stupid, by of course bringing logic to this thread. Something I doubt most of you twelve year olds won't understand.
After reading several pages of this I have formed my own conclusion on the matter. Those people who play the Klingon faction don't like to share. They want the shiniest toy around and the want rub it into everyone elses face. They won't share and they don't want the other kids getting the same thing, because they are selfish and greedy of course. They won't respond to logic and I am sure I will get many responses from those greedy kids making unintelligent and illogical comebacks.
Adding carrier based cruisers just seems to make sense no matter how you look at it.
It would make sense from a business perspective because if people want it people are willing to pay for it. There are a vast amount of players that play the Federation and plenty of willing customers. They make money and make many players happy, something every game developer dreams about but rarely gets in these kinds of games.
It would also make sense from a from a real life military perspective. The Federation is fighting a war with the Klingons, something the fate of billions of innocents hangs in the balance. If the enemy has anything advantageous in battle its only logical that you develop something similar so you don't fall behind. If carriers work in battle then you want your own version to balance the scales. If your enemy has a laser beam and you only have a slingshot and rocks, aren't you going to improve your weapons? Is the enemy going to cry foul because you took away their only advantage? Heck no, its a war, if you fall behind technologically you going to have a harder time fighting the war.
Honestly this game isn't even all the much PvP, so who honestly cares? What are you going to lose accept not being able to rub your carrier in other kids faces? All you carrier-cruiser protesters think that people are crying like babies cause they don't have carrier-cruisers, well I think you guys are the real ones crying like children. And the are pages and pages of proof of it.
Edit: That IwantitImusthaveit mentality you keep saying the Federation players have..... Of freaking course they want it, you keep rubbing in their faces that you have it and they don't. Its only natural they want it themselves. Your all just lucky this isn't a majority PvP game, because then everything must be painstakingly balanced and in no way shape or form should any side have any advantage over the others.
Woot, more Battlestar Galactica nuts! We do not have enough TRIBBLE flying around making peoples computers cry uncle.
He when am I getting a Flight Deck Shuttle? So I can launch shuttles from my shuttles! ooh! and those can launch shuttles!!
Seriously though, pass off a quarter of your ship choices to the KDF with the boff layouts of even half your cruisers and I'm sure they will let you have this toy. Thus far the KDF has been the one giving in this relation ship, hell they even got knocked off content wise and blamed for the loss of profits from the last crappy ship they got.
I'm trying to figure out what Feds have given up to the KDF.
And this is coming from a guy who plays Feds these days mostly.
Also I like my pvp targets to be DIFFERENT than me in more than just..looks.
In short: No, not until Feds have to give up something.
Hi yes I am new here, and untainted by the want for new ships and the desire to not share any of my toys.
This is also my first post ever so I am going to make myself sound stupid, by of course bringing logic to this thread. Something I doubt most of you twelve year olds won't understand.
After reading several pages of this I have formed my own conclusion on the matter. Those people who play the Klingon faction don't like to share. They want the shiniest toy around and the want rub it into everyone elses face. They won't share and they don't want the other kids getting the same thing, because they are selfish and greedy of course. They won't respond to logic and I am sure I will get many responses from those greedy kids making unintelligent and illogical comebacks.
Adding carrier based cruisers just seems to make sense no matter how you look at it.
It would make sense from a business perspective because if people want it people are willing to pay for it. There are a vast amount of players that play the Federation and plenty of willing customers. They make money and make many players happy, something every game developer dreams about but rarely gets in these kinds of games.
It would also make sense from a from a real life military perspective. The Federation is fighting a war with the Klingons, something the fate of billions of innocents hangs in the balance. If the enemy has anything advantageous in battle its only logical that you develop something similar so you don't fall behind. If carriers work in battle then you want your own version to balance the scales. If your enemy has a laser beam and you only have a slingshot and rocks, aren't you going to improve your weapons? Is the enemy going to cry foul because you took away their only advantage? Heck no, its a war, if you fall behind technologically you going to have a harder time fighting the war.
Honestly this game isn't even all the much PvP, so who honestly cares? What are you going to lose accept not being able to rub your carrier in other kids faces? All you carrier-cruiser protesters think that people are crying like babies cause they don't have carrier-cruisers, well I think you guys are the real ones crying like children. And the are pages and pages of proof of it.
Edit: That IwantitImusthaveit mentality you keep saying the Federation players have..... Of freaking course they want it, you keep rubbing in their faces that you have it and they don't. Its only natural they want it themselves. Your all just lucky this isn't a majority PvP game, because then everything must be painstakingly balanced and in no way shape or form should any side have any advantage over the others.
Being new you might want to dig a bit into the Klingon history as it pertains to content/ships in sto. A majority of the ships and such went to Starfleet as well as customizing options and pets avatar wise. Many of the klingon ships and mechanics have already migrated fed side.
Fed side, nothing has really migrated from their side to the klingons.
Might be helpful for you to get a prospective on what has been going on.
If some one keeps asking for your stuff and you keep giving it to them, but they themselves dont share, what is it you do?
Also just to give you an idea, it took the KDF side MONTHS just to get a working tricorder. Also alot of the bugs that were on the KDF side got fixed Fed side long before.
To say KDF might be a little annoyed at the 'gimmy' mentality is understating it, I'm surprised they havent picked up pitch forks and torches!
And while it says 'Klingon' vet under my name, I moved to the fed side long ago, I from time to time dust off my old KDF that I had to level strictly through pvp (Thats all they had back then) and go blast some Feds.
Reasons I moved? Less bugs, more content, and new ships regularly. I cant say it was for the pvp though.
Anyway Welcome to the game! (Try to avoid forums if you can, its a meat grinder in here!)
Comments
Its been free hanger day for Cryptic lately, all the latest ships have one, save for steam runner.
Honestly IF the andy ship turns out to be a flight deck cruiser equivilant.. aND if it equips cannons.. they'd seriously need to give orion peanut cannons as well at least. :<
Which isn't a bad thing, peanut needs some srs love with cannon equippable.
Ah, and here I was thinking it was them things they leave on the pillow when one first check into a nice hotel.
Dem T'ings.
R.I.P
Those things are good too. especialy if youre there with a friend and they dont want their thing so you end up getting 2 things.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
If it goes that route they will most likely just copy/paste the Heavy Escort Carrier to save effort.
Which would be a sad thing in my opinion.
R.I.P
if you are going strictly by canon, the KDF has no fighters that I can recall. the federation has fighters but a carrier has never been seen.
there is an argument that the fighters seen in DS9 were launched from the larger ships like the galaxies, at the expense of their runabouts and shuttles. either that or the peregrines have a warp capability like an X-wing, but that has never been seen and they don't seem to have warp core breaches
It has Sprinkles........
R.I.P
Well the strange thing about the Peregrines is that whenever a fleet was sent out, the fighters were in formation with the bigger ships.
This makes absolutely no sense if they require transportation...unless the fleet gets underway, THEN recovers the fighters and goes to warp.
Also the Maquis used the exact same type of ships and unless they were only operating within the same solar system the entire time, these ships (that are the size of a Boeing 737) must be FTL-capable.
And they have those blue-glowing thingies with the red thingies at the front the larger ships use for Warp as well.;)
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Per_slide1.jpg
And all this is, of course, ignoring the effect production and vfx budgets would have had on decisions to actually show these things.
But it makes no sense to launch them before you even leave.
Unless there is no actual need to carry them inside your hangar bays to bring them with you.
Just cluster a bunch of them around each capital ship and carry them inside the ship's warp field.
It's not something we haven't seen before, the Galaxy could carry its saucer in a detatched state inside the warp field.
On "Enterprise", Columbia managed to carry her own sister ship inside her own field.
Think 200 years further and think about the enormous size difference between a Galaxy and a bunch of fighters.
And we know from the DS9TM that Runabouts (that are actually smaller than Peregrines) have an operational range of 2 weeks.
That's more than enough range for what we've seen them do with these fighters.
Runabouts were not designed as combatant craft though they are fairly well armed for a ship their size. Their primary purpose is as utility craft and so their operational range will be designed and stated with that purpose in mind. Fighters are combat craft and combat is hard on a ship whether it's depletion of fuel from high output engines running at max, expended munitions, battle damage, or the drain of running high powered weapons. It's operation range will be designed and stated with that in mind.
In other words, even if a fighter might be able to operate in non-combat conditions for longer period of time than even a runabout it's operational range is going to be looked at from a combat perspective because that's what it's designed and built to do. Similarly a Runabout may have an even lower operation range than a fighter when looked at from a combat perspective because it's not designed and built for combat but it's operational range will be stated as being higher than a fighter's because it's intended for non-combat uses.
As to your complaint of them launching fighters before leaving - was there ever any indication of how far away from the battle they were? I could see them launching before leaving if it was only a few hours away. That actually makes sense. If they stop just outside the system then there's a very good chance that the enemy's fleet will warp in and pound them to paste while they're launching fighters. If it's days away though...yeah no real sense in launching that early.
I don't think they ever made the timeframe clear.
We do know for example that in "Favor the Bold", when they send Morn to to warn Starfleet the Dominion is 1 week away from blowing the minefield and we know Sisko and the Defiant arrive just as they actually do it.
Unless Morn took forever to warn them, they must have been underway for quite some time.
And we also know that by the time they encounter the Dominion Fleet sent to intercept them, 11 ships had to leave the formation due to engine damage.
Unless those ships were in an incredibly bad state in the first place this makes absolutely no sense.
And there is something else to consider:
Let's assume you're right and a fighter's maximum sustainable Warp speed is pretty low...we know time was crucial...the fighters must have slowed them down when they were deployed the whole time...sorry I got nothing there.
Unless the fighters were really pulled along in the bigger ship's waprfield I think leaving the fighers out is the stupidest thing the could do, particularly since they seemed to have had several minutes after they detected the enemy fleet to get their fighters ready...
1) Using Morn as a courier meant that the fleet had less than a week to get there as it would have taken Morn some time to get to a position where he could relay the information, and the fleet had to prepare. Being generous and saying it only took Morn a few hours to get the information to them they'd have, at most (I'd estimate
2) The week figure was an estimate the fleet could have arrived half-way through the given period or a month later and it would still be "just in time" depending on whether the Cardassians were lucky or not. Using it as an absolute time-frame isn't a good idea, though it's understandable as that's the only real time-reference we have.
Looking at "top speeds" when I talk about those I'm talking about cruising speeds which is a ship's leisurely power-conserving speeds. Most non-cruiser (a.k.a. combat) ships have cruising speeds of between Warp 6 and 7 according to Memory Alpha (where it lists them anyway) and "sprint" speeds of around Warp 8-9. However, these are "safe" practices that keep the engines in good condition and fuel consumption more or less efficient. If you're willing to burn fuel, overstress your engines, and potentially fly your ship to pieces you can just keep feeding power into your engines and attain speeds far faster than is considered safe or even possible by the designers (possibly up to Warp 9.999 even). It's a classic Sci-Fi thing :P (and has been done in Trek on a few occassions though I can't recall absolute numbers being given).
There's also the fact that the screen shots of the fleet on Memory Alpha look like stock footage which means that the writers likely never even made such considerations.
Just don't call it a flight deck cruiser, call it something different.
I have a feeling the K'vort which people suggest maybe the kdf annverisary ship might end up being a Raptor/Carrier. Just a guess.
http://s12.postimage.org/fzaw817zh/fighter_danube_themaquisii.jpg
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine2.jpg
http://ufplanets.com/novasimm/application/assets/images/specs/peregrineclass.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/smallships/DSN2-themaquisp2-peregrinebottpha.jpg
Feds don't have fighters?
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Per_slide1.jpg
You mean like this freeze-frame where you can clearly see a single pilot in the cockpit of a single-seat fighter?
That ship is nowhere near the size of a Danube. Hell, I'd say it's smaller then a Type 11 Shuttle..and it's most certainly smaller then the Scout data piloted in Insurrection and the Raider used by the Maquis..
Sorry, man. Feds have fighters.
No, Feds don't need anymore carriers.
example 1 voyager carrier nelix's frigate/trader vessal and launched it. The Delta Flyer and modified shuttle craft which were used a few times in battle along with the main ship. Also Voyager has a small ship attached under the saucer which was never used so in essense thats 2 frigate size ships and the delta flyer and what 20 shuttle craft of differing types they used to fight along side the ship.
example 2 was in ds9 where they used fighters as part of galaxy wings.
example 3 was in tng when shuttle craft actually got into fights when not at the main ship. Granted not a true carrier but that proves that shuttles are able to fight.
On the topic of comparing ship to ship.
Voq'uv - atrox
FDC(klingon)-vesta
Kar'fi-armitage
personally i prefer the voq'uv since it has almost same survival but way better dps ability. plus it has Frigates over the atrox.
Vesta is a science version of the flight deck cruisers. personally i figure they are similar to each other.
Kar'fi is a full carrier but i feel its more the Heavy escort carrier that gives up turn rate to gain a extra hanger and gives up target subsystems for 7 weapons instead of 6. To me the kar'fi far out performs the armitage. Now klingons need the fleet version and im set.
As for adding a cruiser version of the carrier(eng) for fed then they would need to add a raptor carrier just TRIBBLE for tat. I personally could care less for the uniqueness arguement just merge the fed and klingons already via a story line already. I play my klingons more than my feds due to enjoying my kar'fi and voq'uv more. I dont own the vesta or the armitage mainly due to lack of funds and interest. I am still trying to find another ship klingon side to buy but so far i cant bring myself to buy a BoP. I like my carriers if they added the kar'fi as fleet ship all 3 of my captians would own in as soon as my fleet could get it. IMHO
Sirenbane@dlmystic Founder of Dominion-x
Sirensong@dlmystic LG of Guardians of stovokor
That doesn't make Voyager a carrier, that makes it a ship with embarking craft. Does the ability for a US Navy destroyer to carry a helicopter make it an aircraft carrier?
And the whole Delta Flyer thing's a joke. It's too big to even fit in Voyager's shuttle bay. Just one of many of that series' screwups.
And calling Voyager's aeroshuttle a "frigate" is a bit of a stretch, considering it's only about 30 meters long..Barely larger then a Danube. Plus there's no evidence that it's even armed..
Nova-class ships have their waverider shuttle, does that make them Frigate-carriers too? C'mon...
20 shuttles? An Intrepid could carry 4 shuttles in it's shuttlebay, along with 2 in it's maintenance bay.
So 6 warp-capable shuttles, a cargo shuttle, and 2 Bees. Hardly "20" combat-capable embarking craft on an Intrepid...
Shuttles have basic weapons, but that doesn't mean they're built for combat. We know that phasers are often used for utility as often as they are as weapons. A shuttle's weapons are for little more then self-defense. They are not offensive platforms by any means.
A modern day destroyer can carry, maintain and store 2 helicopters.
An Intrepid-class ship is no more an "aircraft carrier" then an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. And nowhere is it stated that 4+ embarking craft makes you a carrier..
An aircraft carrier is a unit who's primary purpose in a task force is the launch and retrieval of aircraft.
The Federation has no dedicated carriers in the canon. Do they have ships capable of performing the role in limited means? Yes. Akira, for example--which, get this..is a carrier in the game..
Intrepid is not a carrier. No Federation ship in the canon is a dedicated carrier. Having a shuttlebay does not make you a carrier.
Because they can replicate new ones? The only parts of a shuttle that cannot be replicated are the anti-matter, and the dilithium and the flight crew. Anything else can be replicated to replace losses.
First you sir are not me. I tend to love military history and naval vessals are one of the most interesting. World war 1 was when first aircraft carriers came out. They in fact could old 4-5 craft each. I used to spend my free time watching history on these ships.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Engadine_(1911) 4 seaplanes i described to you.
As for voyager replicating parts they had trouble with food replication why would they waste resources with parts. and also the torpedos couldnt be replicated either. Salvage and reuse i could see but she carried more than just 6 shuttle craft. I never said she was ment to do the job of a carrier, i implied she was modified as need to do so. Just as the first ships were modified to be air craft carriers in world war 1 out of need. /shrug know your past to plan your future.
The Galaxy Class starship's main shuttle bay was supposed to be large enough to accomodate large scale evacuation operations. Since a flight deck cruiser isn't supposed to be a true carrier I see no logical reason for such a ship to not have to ability to launch and recover a small compliment of fighters.
For example If you modified where the entry/exit ports on a galaxy class's main shuttle bay are located you could easily convert it into a through deck carrier like the akira. But with the main enterence as large as it is I also see no reason you could not support concurent landing\takeoff operations.
As far as balance is concerned I can already equip fighters on any ship I please through use of the device slots, the only thing adding a hangar slot would get me is cheeper fighters that, if I choose, will be slightly stronger and with more variety. True I can launch them faster but I can still only have 2 wing out at a time and since there is no frigate pet available to the federation then there can't be a significant boost in overall effectiveness.
IS it necessary for each side to have a version of somthing the other side has? No. Is it somthing everyone is going to ask for anyway? Probably. Will if make any real difference to 90% of the game? Nope. Will PVP be serioulsy affected? Only FvK matches and even then probably not much. Out of the entirety of available means of game play how much would such a thing actualy change anything? 1-2% maybe.
Maybe even make the galaxy class a more used option if it could launch fighters.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Was not an aircraft carrier. Engadine was a seaplane tender. It says that in the first sentence of the first paragraph of your own link.
Seaplane tender =/= aircraft carrier. Seaplane tenders lack a flight deck...
"There was no flight deck, the aircraft being lowered onto the sea for takeoff and recovered again from the sea after landing."
Again, from your own link..
Engadine was no more an aircraft carrier then a Burke-class destroyer is an aircraft carrier. She was a seaplane tender.. Similar to the Japanese Oyodo-class, which were a class of light cruisers converted to handle seaplanes. This made them seaplane tenders, not aircraft carriers...
Bismarck could carry, store, maintain, launch and recover 4 Arado 196 seaplanes. Did that make Bismarck an aircraft carrier?
Hell, Yamato could carry, store maintain, launch and recover 7 seaplanes..Was Yamato an aircraft carrier?
Just to put this into perspective..
The first true aircraft carrier was HMS Argus. Argus could carry, store, maintain, launch and recover 15-18 aircraft from a flight deck, and carrying, storing, maintaining, launching and recovering those 15-18 aircraft were her only purpose in life..
Because they weren't always low on supplies? There were times that they were, but there were also times when supplies didn't seem like a real concern. Having embarking craft on your 380-meter long ship is a pretty decent priority in itself...
Every part of a torpedo can be replicated except the anti-matter in it's warhead. That's why Voyager, a ship who's magazine could only carry 32 torpedoes, fired several hundred of them during the course of the show...
Also, most shuttles don't have torpedoes. Voyager's primary embarking craft were Type-9 shuttles, and they don't have integrated torpedo launchers of any type.
Not quite, was at about 20 days, not the requisite 30. But this thread really needs to go in some hole and die. It's a silly idea, and not ever going to happen.
yeah. It would me neat but then again so would an equipable lance weapon.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Vu'Qov carrier
Kar'Fi carrier
tier 3 flight deck cruiser
tier 4 flight deck cruiser
tier 5 flight deck cruiser
FED:
atrox carrier
armitage flight deck escort
vesta flight deck science ship
aventine flight deck science ship
rademaker flight deck science ship
both have 5 unique ship classes; all 5 of the FEDs are tier 5, where as only 3 of the KDFs are tier 5
and you want MORE end game ships for FEDs?
Um... are you new to these forums? I feel I must ask, because if you weren't you would know that Feds have a seetech mentality. They see tech and they want it. :P
Edit:
Feds are on a seeeverythingtheydon'thavealready mentality. As in they see everything they don't have already and immediately cry about it and beg for it.
Thank you wunjee for pointing that out.
This is also my first post ever so I am going to make myself sound stupid, by of course bringing logic to this thread. Something I doubt most of you twelve year olds won't understand.
After reading several pages of this I have formed my own conclusion on the matter. Those people who play the Klingon faction don't like to share. They want the shiniest toy around and the want rub it into everyone elses face. They won't share and they don't want the other kids getting the same thing, because they are selfish and greedy of course. They won't respond to logic and I am sure I will get many responses from those greedy kids making unintelligent and illogical comebacks.
Adding carrier based cruisers just seems to make sense no matter how you look at it.
It would make sense from a business perspective because if people want it people are willing to pay for it. There are a vast amount of players that play the Federation and plenty of willing customers. They make money and make many players happy, something every game developer dreams about but rarely gets in these kinds of games.
It would also make sense from a from a real life military perspective. The Federation is fighting a war with the Klingons, something the fate of billions of innocents hangs in the balance. If the enemy has anything advantageous in battle its only logical that you develop something similar so you don't fall behind. If carriers work in battle then you want your own version to balance the scales. If your enemy has a laser beam and you only have a slingshot and rocks, aren't you going to improve your weapons? Is the enemy going to cry foul because you took away their only advantage? Heck no, its a war, if you fall behind technologically you going to have a harder time fighting the war.
Honestly this game isn't even all the much PvP, so who honestly cares? What are you going to lose accept not being able to rub your carrier in other kids faces? All you carrier-cruiser protesters think that people are crying like babies cause they don't have carrier-cruisers, well I think you guys are the real ones crying like children. And the are pages and pages of proof of it.
Edit: That IwantitImusthaveit mentality you keep saying the Federation players have..... Of freaking course they want it, you keep rubbing in their faces that you have it and they don't. Its only natural they want it themselves. Your all just lucky this isn't a majority PvP game, because then everything must be painstakingly balanced and in no way shape or form should any side have any advantage over the others.
He when am I getting a Flight Deck Shuttle? So I can launch shuttles from my shuttles! ooh! and those can launch shuttles!!
Seriously though, pass off a quarter of your ship choices to the KDF with the boff layouts of even half your cruisers and I'm sure they will let you have this toy. Thus far the KDF has been the one giving in this relation ship, hell they even got knocked off content wise and blamed for the loss of profits from the last crappy ship they got.
I'm trying to figure out what Feds have given up to the KDF.
And this is coming from a guy who plays Feds these days mostly.
Also I like my pvp targets to be DIFFERENT than me in more than just..looks.
In short: No, not until Feds have to give up something.
Being new you might want to dig a bit into the Klingon history as it pertains to content/ships in sto. A majority of the ships and such went to Starfleet as well as customizing options and pets avatar wise. Many of the klingon ships and mechanics have already migrated fed side.
Fed side, nothing has really migrated from their side to the klingons.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=217322
Might be helpful for you to get a prospective on what has been going on.
If some one keeps asking for your stuff and you keep giving it to them, but they themselves dont share, what is it you do?
Also just to give you an idea, it took the KDF side MONTHS just to get a working tricorder. Also alot of the bugs that were on the KDF side got fixed Fed side long before.
To say KDF might be a little annoyed at the 'gimmy' mentality is understating it, I'm surprised they havent picked up pitch forks and torches!
And while it says 'Klingon' vet under my name, I moved to the fed side long ago, I from time to time dust off my old KDF that I had to level strictly through pvp (Thats all they had back then) and go blast some Feds.
Reasons I moved? Less bugs, more content, and new ships regularly. I cant say it was for the pvp though.
Anyway Welcome to the game! (Try to avoid forums if you can, its a meat grinder in here!)
Paneth