The concept of balance is truely lost in this games PvP and the constant focus on mechanics that achieve lockdown, be it TB pets, Siphon drones, AMS consoles, SNB DOffs or the new time mechanics to come, its gotten stupidly out of whack and has gone from a game that was fun and challenging once(long ago) to He who wins, pays for it.
Doesn't matter if you feed them.
They feed themselves off the byproduct of Trollosmosis, or what is defined as the the tendency of a idea, usually wrong, to pass from a forum post into a thread where the common game mechanic general balance understanding is higher, thus diluting the desired balance of said thread to a more unbalanced state. Usually this is accomplished through faulty game mechanic examples and personal interest ideas that favor only a few.
Doesn't matter if you feed them.
They feed themselves off the byproduct of Trollosmosis, or what is defined as the the tendency of a idea, usually wrong, to pass from a forum post into a thread where the common game mechanic general balance understanding is higher, thus diluting the desired balance of said thread to a more unbalanced state. Usually this is accomplished through faulty game mechanic examples and personal interest ideas that favor only a few.
when pve'ing, i set my keyboard on the floor and throw a bone for him to fetch on the other side of it. The result is him running over my keyboard going back and forth. You could say it's kind of an Iwin button for pve, but I dont think its OP due to internal testing.
For now, I've decided to implement a lock-out immunity on this proc. Once you're hit with it, you have a period of immunity from additional procs from this doff regardless of the source. This does not affect the SNB Captain Power at all.
No other changes have been made just yet.
Right now, I've set the immunity period at 10 seconds. Honestly, that feels too short, but I don't have any solid mathematics telling me where to set it, so I am erring on the side of caution. Your thoughts?
I'm also still considering reducing the number of buffs it strips down from 1000 to 1-3. It would pick the one(s) with the shortest remaining duration. Some feedback from this thread about "random effects not being fun" has given me pause on implementing this just yet. The immunity period may be enough to bring the doff back in line.
(Somewhat related: Doing some internal testing on the BFI doff. Will probably be changed at the same time the above changes to the SNB doff go out.)
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
For now, I've decided to implement a lock-out immunity on this proc. Once you're hit with it, you have a period of immunity from additional procs from this doff regardless of the source. This does not affect the SNB Captain Power at all.
No other changes have been made just yet.
Right now, I've set the immunity period at 10 seconds. Honestly, that feels too short, but I don't have any solid mathematics telling me where to set it, so I am erring on the side of caution. Your thoughts?
I'm also still considering reducing the number of buffs it strips down from 1000 to 1-3. It would pick the one(s) with the shortest remaining duration. Some feedback from this thread about "random effects not being fun" has given me pause on implementing this just yet. The immunity period may be enough to bring the doff back in line.
(Somewhat related: Doing some internal testing on the BFI doff. Will probably be changed at the same time the above changes to the SNB doff go out.)
Would it be possible to put a lockout on the buff stripping on the person using the DOff as opposed to the person getting shot?
I would propose something like this:
Strips 1-3 buffs, maybe go with the ones that have the longest remaining duration, so it still has some bite.
Make it so the person who is running 3 of these doffs can at most apply 1 proc per 1 minute and 30 secs
What this ensures:
You won't be stripping that CRF with 2 secs left on the clock, you might strip that EPTS or RSF. So it's useful, but not as powerful as SNB.
Reducing the proc rate on the DOff user (not the victim) to 1 minute and 30 secs balances it out with the SNB cooldown. While if the victim is unlucky enough they can be stripped multiple times just like they could be SNB'd multiple times in a row.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Would it be possible to put a lockout on the buff stripping on the person using the DOff as opposed to the person getting shot?
Completely possible. But doing so would not address the primary situation where this doff proc becomes imbalanced and un-fun: Teams of players all using it in tandem.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
when pve'ing, i set my keyboard on the floor and throw a bone for him to fetch on the other side of it. The result is him running over my keyboard going back and forth. You could say it's kind of an Iwin button for pve, but I dont think its OP due to internal testing.
I thought about removing my Dogs Bollocks and replacing them with my keyboard when I play, so his natural tendency to pay attention to himself emulates the attention needed to PvE though it may be unfair to my Dog to lose his bollocks for an aspect of gameplay that is not his fault and does not concern him.
Completely possible. But doing so would not address the primary situation where this doff proc becomes imbalanced and un-fun: Teams of players all using it in tandem.
But if say it is reduced to 1 proc every 1 min and 30 secs, in a 5 man team running all of these doffs they could at most apply 5 1-3 buff strips in a theoretical 1:30 min window. With say only a 10 sec immunity, it is possible for them apply at least 5 strips or even more on the opposing team.
In which case, putting the restriction on the Doff user would overall reduce the number of procs occuring. THe primary issue right now, is that with 1 person running 3 they proc more often than a sci captain's SNB, with a 5 man team, it's an extra 5 SNBs which statistically wise can proc far more often than 5 sci captain's with SNB.
In a team setting, I would put forward the idea that limiting the number of procs from the source would be far more effective at eliminating the imbalance un-fun nature of getting stripped so often as opposed to adding a short term immunity to the victim.
As it is now, an immunity on the victims would still make it possible for a 5 man team each running 3 of these DOffs to strip another 5 man team twice within a 1 minute and 30 sec window. Unlikely, but still very possible. Limiting how often the proc can occurs would ensure that this situation would never happen. Note, I am suggesting that at most a person can apply 1 strip every 1 minute and 30 secs, not that they should apply 1 strip every 1 minute and 30 secs. They can still go long dry spells without any strips.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
I'm also still considering reducing the number of buffs it strips down from 1000 to 1-3. It would pick the one(s) with the shortest remaining duration. Some feedback from this thread about "random effects not being fun" has given me pause on implementing this just yet. The immunity period may be enough to bring the doff back in line.
In another game medics had an ability to "strip" buffs from players. In PvP it also caused similar issues. The way those designers went about correcting it was similar to what you are suggesting but it had some slight modifications. That game was also heading in a direction of massive buffing and buff wars in PvP so the ability was introduced to combat some of those issues. The logic those designers followed was:
Some buffs could not be stripped by the ability
Buffs that could be stripped were done so randomly
So I think if you followed similar logic and reduced the number of buffs that could be stripped and the stripping was done randomly that would go a long way. Say 3 buffs stripped randomly per application???
Just a thought, don't know if it has already been mentioned before, but if it is I apologize. Why not simply make it the same as the jem'hadar 3 piece set bonus? To refresh your memory, it has a 1% chance to strip one buff on your target when using polaron weaponary(only applies for the galor & bug ship).
I would probably not limit it to polaron weaponary and ship if we are going to stick this into the snb doff. Also, I would keep the proc chance to 0.5% because it would lower the value of the jem'hadar set if the chance to proc goes to 1%.
Just a thought, don't know if it has already been mentioned before, but if it is I apologize. Why not simply make it the same as the jem'hadar 3 piece set bonus? To refresh your memory, it has a 1% chance to strip one buff on your target when using polaron weaponary(only applies for the galor & bug ship).
I would probably not limit it to polaron weaponary and ship if we are going to stick this into the snb doff. Also, I would keep the proc chance to 0.5% because it would lower the value of the jem'hadar set if the chance to proc goes to 1%.
I thought this set bonus never actually functioned. Is it working now?
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I'm really glad to see you care about this issue, Bort (I mean that sincerely).
I'd strongly suggest using the "worst case scenario" (i.e. a full five-man team abusing the mechanics to the hilt) as the baseline for any hotfixes or balance patches.
With the SNB DOffs, you're really only looking at how it affects high-end PvP teams (as well as the public queues, since it's mega unfun for pubs to warp into a five-man SNB team).
Pretty much everything you've suggested is a good start... if you'd like to keep the DOff in the game, maybe make it so it's more of a "one DOff", exotic kind of thing. Something that's definitely nice and useful when it procs, but you can't stack it and it's not really exploitable or scalable with anything.
I think it has been tested that a team using these doffs procs about every 8 secs. 10 secs is much too short in this circumstance. It seems like a minimum of a 30 second timer would still mean a target can be nuked every 31-38 secs which is still really powerful.
I think it has been tested that a team using these doffs procs about every 8 secs. 10 secs is much too short in this circumstance. It seems like a minimum of a 30 second timer would still mean a target can be nuked every 31-38 secs which is still really powerful.
Agree with fallout. A 30 sec immunity is not even comfortable, a snb is 1.5 min if I remember correctly, and pls bort, no more than 3 buffs removed. Even with immunity for 30 sec, you could still in theory be w/o ep to shields all the time. Maybe also tune up the sub doffs to remove up to a defensive and up to 2 offensive skills? Kind of advantages the healers tbh but maybe make sure you remove up to 2 either offense or defense powers and one of the other one.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I'm also still considering reducing the number of buffs it strips down from 1000 to 1-3. It would pick the one(s) with the shortest remaining duration. Some feedback from this thread about "random effects not being fun" has given me pause on implementing this just yet. The immunity period may be enough to bring the doff back in line.
I agree with "random effects not being fun". I would favor lengthening the immunity if need be.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think it has been tested that a team using these doffs procs about every 8 secs. 10 secs is much too short in this circumstance. It seems like a minimum of a 30 second timer would still mean a target can be nuked every 31-38 secs which is still really powerful.
I'd still say it be better to limit how often it procs so that after the first proc, that ship can't proc again for at least 1.5 minutes. So its like a mini SNB
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
I'd still say it be better to limit how often it procs so that after the first proc, that ship can't proc again for at least 1.5 minutes. So its like a mini SNB
The issue I see with this is that, in theory, while targeted by 5 ships, you can still be doff-subnuked 5 times, if there is no immunity. And to make them proc less can be achieved by reducing the proc chance to something lower than .5. I don't oppose that to be honest but I doubt it will be implemented.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Regarding the immunity period, allow me to paint a different perspective:
What can you do, as a ship, if all of your active buffs are removed? How much time do you need in order to be effective again after being hit? How long do the buffs you apply really last? How long do they NEED to last in order for you to feel like you've gotten your use from them? If you blew all of your cooldowns, will they have refreshed before the immunity period is over, or will you just potentially get stripped again unless the immunity timer is longer than your buff cooldowns?
There are other angles to examine here beyond just "that's annoying, I don't want it to happen to me again for X sec." I'd like to hear some analysis on the reasons behind anyone's particular time preference.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Regarding the immunity period, allow me to paint a different perspective:
What can you do, as a ship, if all of your active buffs are removed? How much time do you need in order to be effective again after being hit? How long do the buffs you apply really last? How long do they NEED to last in order for you to feel like you've gotten your use from them? If you blew all of your cooldowns, will they have refreshed before the immunity period is over, or will you just potentially get stripped again unless the immunity timer is longer than your buff cooldowns?
There are other angles to examine here beyond just "that's annoying, I don't want it to happen to me again for X sec." I'd like to hear some analysis on the reasons behind anyone's particular time preference.
What it really needs is a method of countering it or at the very least having the proc chance reduced/amount equip-able reduced if you can equip 5 at any given time then its more than any other doff in the game and with the current proc chance I should imagine the people here complaining about it are doing so with good reason, you have to put constraints on these things perhaps if you eqiup more than X of a doff then upon proc-ing they start a period of time (say... 5 minutes) in which none of them will proc thus allowing a player to recover rather than having their buffs stripped and put on constant cooldown.
that's just my suggestion, I'm sure the hardcore PvPers here will have better suggestions as they will know the system better than me
What it really needs is a method of countering it or ...
The new counter is the new Time Console that reverses time! We should all go open lockboxes for the SNB counter.
Oh, but watch out for the Tric minefield behind you! LOL
Comments
Yeah, I don't like you...
R.I.P
Doesn't matter if you feed them.
They feed themselves off the byproduct of Trollosmosis, or what is defined as the the tendency of a idea, usually wrong, to pass from a forum post into a thread where the common game mechanic general balance understanding is higher, thus diluting the desired balance of said thread to a more unbalanced state. Usually this is accomplished through faulty game mechanic examples and personal interest ideas that favor only a few.
R.I.P
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
rofl
you never cease to make me lol
some ppl "command" their ships. I prefer to take the whip to my doffs while pewing. They have as much impact as the ppl on the bridge do anyway.
I have them roll the keyboard for me.
Now thats a DOff we need for PvE. Don't go nerfing it before they can offer it in a lockbox.
R.I.P
when pve'ing, i set my keyboard on the floor and throw a bone for him to fetch on the other side of it. The result is him running over my keyboard going back and forth. You could say it's kind of an Iwin button for pve, but I dont think its OP due to internal testing.
For now, I've decided to implement a lock-out immunity on this proc. Once you're hit with it, you have a period of immunity from additional procs from this doff regardless of the source. This does not affect the SNB Captain Power at all.
No other changes have been made just yet.
Right now, I've set the immunity period at 10 seconds. Honestly, that feels too short, but I don't have any solid mathematics telling me where to set it, so I am erring on the side of caution. Your thoughts?
I'm also still considering reducing the number of buffs it strips down from 1000 to 1-3. It would pick the one(s) with the shortest remaining duration. Some feedback from this thread about "random effects not being fun" has given me pause on implementing this just yet. The immunity period may be enough to bring the doff back in line.
(Somewhat related: Doing some internal testing on the BFI doff. Will probably be changed at the same time the above changes to the SNB doff go out.)
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Would it be possible to put a lockout on the buff stripping on the person using the DOff as opposed to the person getting shot?
I would propose something like this:
Strips 1-3 buffs, maybe go with the ones that have the longest remaining duration, so it still has some bite.
Make it so the person who is running 3 of these doffs can at most apply 1 proc per 1 minute and 30 secs
What this ensures:
You won't be stripping that CRF with 2 secs left on the clock, you might strip that EPTS or RSF. So it's useful, but not as powerful as SNB.
Reducing the proc rate on the DOff user (not the victim) to 1 minute and 30 secs balances it out with the SNB cooldown. While if the victim is unlucky enough they can be stripped multiple times just like they could be SNB'd multiple times in a row.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Completely possible. But doing so would not address the primary situation where this doff proc becomes imbalanced and un-fun: Teams of players all using it in tandem.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I thought about removing my Dogs Bollocks and replacing them with my keyboard when I play, so his natural tendency to pay attention to himself emulates the attention needed to PvE though it may be unfair to my Dog to lose his bollocks for an aspect of gameplay that is not his fault and does not concern him.
R.I.P
But if say it is reduced to 1 proc every 1 min and 30 secs, in a 5 man team running all of these doffs they could at most apply 5 1-3 buff strips in a theoretical 1:30 min window. With say only a 10 sec immunity, it is possible for them apply at least 5 strips or even more on the opposing team.
In which case, putting the restriction on the Doff user would overall reduce the number of procs occuring. THe primary issue right now, is that with 1 person running 3 they proc more often than a sci captain's SNB, with a 5 man team, it's an extra 5 SNBs which statistically wise can proc far more often than 5 sci captain's with SNB.
In a team setting, I would put forward the idea that limiting the number of procs from the source would be far more effective at eliminating the imbalance un-fun nature of getting stripped so often as opposed to adding a short term immunity to the victim.
As it is now, an immunity on the victims would still make it possible for a 5 man team each running 3 of these DOffs to strip another 5 man team twice within a 1 minute and 30 sec window. Unlikely, but still very possible. Limiting how often the proc can occurs would ensure that this situation would never happen. Note, I am suggesting that at most a person can apply 1 strip every 1 minute and 30 secs, not that they should apply 1 strip every 1 minute and 30 secs. They can still go long dry spells without any strips.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
In another game medics had an ability to "strip" buffs from players. In PvP it also caused similar issues. The way those designers went about correcting it was similar to what you are suggesting but it had some slight modifications. That game was also heading in a direction of massive buffing and buff wars in PvP so the ability was introduced to combat some of those issues. The logic those designers followed was:
So I think if you followed similar logic and reduced the number of buffs that could be stripped and the stripping was done randomly that would go a long way. Say 3 buffs stripped randomly per application???
I would probably not limit it to polaron weaponary and ship if we are going to stick this into the snb doff. Also, I would keep the proc chance to 0.5% because it would lower the value of the jem'hadar set if the chance to proc goes to 1%.
I thought this set bonus never actually functioned. Is it working now?
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I'd strongly suggest using the "worst case scenario" (i.e. a full five-man team abusing the mechanics to the hilt) as the baseline for any hotfixes or balance patches.
With the SNB DOffs, you're really only looking at how it affects high-end PvP teams (as well as the public queues, since it's mega unfun for pubs to warp into a five-man SNB team).
Pretty much everything you've suggested is a good start... if you'd like to keep the DOff in the game, maybe make it so it's more of a "one DOff", exotic kind of thing. Something that's definitely nice and useful when it procs, but you can't stack it and it's not really exploitable or scalable with anything.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Agree with fallout. A 30 sec immunity is not even comfortable, a snb is 1.5 min if I remember correctly, and pls bort, no more than 3 buffs removed. Even with immunity for 30 sec, you could still in theory be w/o ep to shields all the time. Maybe also tune up the sub doffs to remove up to a defensive and up to 2 offensive skills? Kind of advantages the healers tbh but maybe make sure you remove up to 2 either offense or defense powers and one of the other one.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I agree with "random effects not being fun". I would favor lengthening the immunity if need be.
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'd still say it be better to limit how often it procs so that after the first proc, that ship can't proc again for at least 1.5 minutes. So its like a mini SNB
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
The issue I see with this is that, in theory, while targeted by 5 ships, you can still be doff-subnuked 5 times, if there is no immunity. And to make them proc less can be achieved by reducing the proc chance to something lower than .5. I don't oppose that to be honest but I doubt it will be implemented.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
What can you do, as a ship, if all of your active buffs are removed? How much time do you need in order to be effective again after being hit? How long do the buffs you apply really last? How long do they NEED to last in order for you to feel like you've gotten your use from them? If you blew all of your cooldowns, will they have refreshed before the immunity period is over, or will you just potentially get stripped again unless the immunity timer is longer than your buff cooldowns?
There are other angles to examine here beyond just "that's annoying, I don't want it to happen to me again for X sec." I'd like to hear some analysis on the reasons behind anyone's particular time preference.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
What it really needs is a method of countering it or at the very least having the proc chance reduced/amount equip-able reduced if you can equip 5 at any given time then its more than any other doff in the game and with the current proc chance I should imagine the people here complaining about it are doing so with good reason, you have to put constraints on these things perhaps if you eqiup more than X of a doff then upon proc-ing they start a period of time (say... 5 minutes) in which none of them will proc thus allowing a player to recover rather than having their buffs stripped and put on constant cooldown.
that's just my suggestion, I'm sure the hardcore PvPers here will have better suggestions as they will know the system better than me
The new counter is the new Time Console that reverses time! We should all go open lockboxes for the SNB counter.
Oh, but watch out for the Tric minefield behind you! LOL