The proc % of the doff will probably be increased in order to offset this immunity period.
The doff in question is getting an immunity period because it's unbalanced. Buffing it while trying to reduce it's effectiveness seems...counterproductive. Especially since it's proc rate was originally reduced because it was proccing too much. Any chance we could try the changes without the proc % change? Otherwise the math implies that any SNB doff enabled team is going to pretty much guarantee a buff strip every minute when the immunity wears off.
We're not going to change a Doff that does one thing into a Doff that does something completely different.
This Doff strips buffs.
He's not going to be changed into a Doff that impacts cooldowns.
Those are completely different mechanics that are only tied together by a single power that 1/3rd of the characters in game have access to.
So please stop making suggestions of this type. You're only confusing the issue and potential solutions.
For now, there's an immunity period in place and the duration of that period is all I was requesting feedback on. It sounds like 30-60 seconds is the general consensus, but I haven't heard much solid info to support one end of that spectrum or the other besides "it's too powerful unless" statements.
The proc % of the doff will probably be increased in order to offset this immunity period.
The remaining issue of "how many buffs does it strip" is still in the air. Most folks on this forum are in favor of limiting it to just a small handful. I'm thinking I could probably make this 3 and most players would see no difference in PvE since most NPCs rarely run with more than 3 buffs at a time anyway. So that's likely to happen.
If your gonna increase the proc rate, please make it AT LEAST 1 min. It may as well be a guaranteed wipe once a minute, and a player holding onto a rsp with a one minute cd at least has a fighting chance when it procs every minute. Lot of ppl keep saying "adapt", but there is little chance of "adapting" if you keep being stripped every 30secs. This is also a "fight fire with fire" type of doff. Two teams of equal skill with one team running 15 of these doffs and one team running none will always go to the team running them. They will simply win through attrition of heals since the other team will have to make up the stripped heals every rotation of the doff cd.
Folks in this very thread are insisting that is already the case without an immunity period.
how about this, give it the chance to do 1 of these 3 things per shot
strip 1 abilities- 1.2% chance, grants 30 second immunity
strip 2 abilities- 0.8% chance, grants 60 second immunity
strip 3 abilities- 0.4% chance, grants 90 second immunity
most powerful role wins, other successful roles discarded. im not a math expert, but since each doff would grants 3 rolls with a chance for one of these to succeed, the chance that it procs should proboly be quite low.
The way it works in (an MMO to remain nameless), is that "Activated Abilities" that have special functions, generally have an innate 2-3 min cooldown. While "Passive Abilities" with Procs, have an internal cooldown of around 45 seconds, before the Passive can proc anew.
Folks in this very thread are insisting that is already the case without an immunity period.
That's my point. The math for constant procs is based on 5 people running it. Not that hard with a good premade. If you increase the proc % back to what it was, I don't need 5 people running it for constant procs, I only need 1 or maybe 2. This is what made it so cried about when it was originally introduced. Minimal group changes for a huge gain in effectiveness. At least if all 5 people are running it it makes them give up BFI, Sci Team, Pattern doffs, etc across the entire group.
Folks in this very thread are insisting that is already the case without an immunity period.
Only way I could see to prove one way or the other is if a time stamped log showing the person using it and what target either be npc or a player and see how often it procs. Although based on my observations most of these that are going on are from the free ships that you can get as you level up. Most of those who are not playing legit are often using throw away accounts so if they get caught they can just move to another account for pvp purposes.
SNB does a full strip on a 2 min cooldown. Unless you want to devalue science captains, you should make sure that 3 doffs on a player do significantly less than a regular SNB.
Therefore, if you really only care for immunity numbers, here is my suggestion: 2 min immunity and one buff stripped per doff.
NPCs usually have only one buff up at a time, so this is enough for PVE.
(And just to rub it in: There is a way to restore PVP balance without even touching PVE. Find some courage and face the Geko! :P)
SNB does a full strip on a 2 min cooldown. Unless you want to devalue science captains, you should make sure that 3 doffs on a player do significantly less than a regular SNB.
Therefore, if you really only care for immunity numbers, here is my suggestion: 2 min immunity and one buff stripped per doff.
That's far too large of a nerf. Stripping 2-3 buffs without any immunity would be fine. But why not just remove the strip effect and apply a cooldown penalty to the target instead?
For now, there's an immunity period in place and the duration of that period is all I was requesting feedback on. It sounds like 30-60 seconds is the general consensus, but I haven't heard much solid info to support one end of that spectrum or the other besides "it's too powerful unless" statements.
Borticus, my post previously in this thread went into considerable detail attempting to answer this very question; if any of the reasoning didn't seem like 'solid info', could you please take a look at my post and explain where I failed to elucidate sufficiently?
Borticus, my post previously in this thread went into considerable detail attempting to answer this very question; if any of the reasoning didn't seem like 'solid info', could you please take a look at my post and explain where I failed to elucidate sufficiently?
Nah, you did good. Thank you.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
An argument for at least 30 seconds; if an escort is stripped immediately after hitting rapid fire / attack patterns, they are guaranteed at least one active, effective buffed attack cycle before being proc'ed again.
This is where my 60-second number comes from; I feel that you should have at least one buff cycle worth of 'normal' combat where you are not having to fly defensively and receive heavy heals from the team before being at risk of a second proc.
Hilbert had this for a reason for 2 min. I happen to agree with him.
SNB does a full strip on a 2 min cooldown. Unless you want to devalue science captains, you should make sure that 3 doffs on a player do significantly less than a regular SNB.
Even a three doff strip is a HUGE advantage in pvp. And it's the "lite" version of the crowning captain only sci power. Making it faster than the actual Sci Captains seriously calls in to question the need to sci captains and their usefulness.
I think anything more than that would be nerfing them too much. Sounds about right, but difficult to tell without testing. The immunity is per target, correct? Not a global "I can only fire off one proc every 30sec" type of thing? And can you double check to make sure the immunity in no way effects the SNB captain power?
I think anything more than that would be nerfing them too much. Sounds about right, but difficult to tell without testing. The immunity is per target, correct? Not a global "I can only fire off one proc every 30sec" type of thing? And can you double check to make sure the immunity in no way effects the SNB captain power?
Immunity is applied to the target. If you switch targets, you have another chance to proc.
This does not affect SNB in any way.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
These changes should appear on Tribble soon, and I'd like to hear more feedback after you've gotten your hands on 'em.
They might not be as big of changes as this community wants, but I'm keeping an eye on them to see if more is truly warranted.
Good changes... this should make them far less of a pain in a group situation... it in fact makes them better in PvE where enemies never have more then 2 buffs up anyway, and the proc rate is getting doubled.
I'm starting to feel like you're just trolling me now.
It has no effect on SNB. What more do you want me to tell you?
He wanted you to tell him exactly what you did.
He is not trolling, he is just pointing out that Cryptic's track record with patches has been... less than optimal. You might remember the Omega engines, the MACO shield, the Jem'hadar shield and many things more that had highly problematic unintended side effects because you guys did not test it properly.
And SNB is just too important of a captain skill to risk a patch with the "usual" quality.
This doff, 0.5sec after it removes 3 buffs, places an invisible flag onto the target, specific to this doff's power. It is called "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" and it lasts 30sec.
No player will ever have the ability to see this flag without the use of dev-level debug commands.
This flag is read by one power, and only one. That power, is this doff. If it attempts to proc again, it looks for the flag on the target. If the flag is present, the proc is discarded instead of being applied. If the flag is not present, the proc goes off, buffs are stripped, a flag is applied, and the whole process repeats.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
This doff, 0.5sec after it removes 3 buffs, places an invisible flag onto the target, specific to this doff's power. It is called "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" and it lasts 30sec.
No player will ever have the ability to see this flag without the use of dev-level debug commands.
This flag is read by one power, and only one. That power, is this doff. If it attempts to proc again, it looks for the flag on the target. If the flag is present, the proc is discarded instead of being applied. If the flag is not present, the proc goes off, buffs are stripped, a flag is applied, and the whole process repeats.
lol, that would be funny if that "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" flag made some one immune from a traditional snb too. that might have been what he wanted to make sure was not going to happen.
we will see how those changes go, its certainly better then before i think.
Thank you. From your description of the implementation it sounds like it should be good. Hilbert is correct that I'm not trying to troll you, I just want to make sure that things go smoothly. If previous changes didn't have a history of severely breaking related powers I wouldn't have said anything. Given the importance of the Subnuke power -- and less than rosy past development history -- I think I made a fair inquiry, no?
This doff, 0.5sec after it removes 3 buffs, places an invisible flag onto the target, specific to this doff's power. It is called "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" and it lasts 30sec.
No player will ever have the ability to see this flag without the use of dev-level debug commands.
This flag is read by one power, and only one. That power, is this doff. If it attempts to proc again, it looks for the flag on the target. If the flag is present, the proc is discarded instead of being applied. If the flag is not present, the proc goes off, buffs are stripped, a flag is applied, and the whole process repeats.
It should come as no surprise by now bort that while in other forums you may browse players don't want or need that much detail of how the power will work, but in this forum these details are exactly what we want to know. Thanks for spelling out how the power "should" work when changed
It will be interesting to see which end of the power stack gets the buffs stripped from. Losing three stacks of Power Conduit Link won't even be noticed; whereas losing RSP, ETPS, and Tac Team is death.
I think 1% makes this still too powerful. Having to run three of them to have a high likelihood of proccing in the duration of your alpha strike, which was where they were at 0.5%, means giving up significant advantages elsewhere. If you can get a good likelihood with 1-2 of them, you can have this super-powerful ability, and give up very little to get it.
I think that if they kept the 0.5% chance with all the other changes nobody would use SNB doffs anymore. Why not try 1% and if it's still an issue, perhaps drop it down to 0.75?
is there anyway to make sure it strips 3 different buffs or is it only the first 3 it hits? to avoid someone needlessly loosing buffs that arnt really buffs and whatnot. or is that just gonna be the luck of the draw?
and a follow up, how does it determine which buffs will get stripped anyways? randomly? first come first serve? etc etc.
itf its a preset way it determines which buffs are stripped is there anyways to make sure it doesnt only just keep stipping those buffs?
Comments
The doff in question is getting an immunity period because it's unbalanced. Buffing it while trying to reduce it's effectiveness seems...counterproductive. Especially since it's proc rate was originally reduced because it was proccing too much. Any chance we could try the changes without the proc % change? Otherwise the math implies that any SNB doff enabled team is going to pretty much guarantee a buff strip every minute when the immunity wears off.
Folks in this very thread are insisting that is already the case without an immunity period.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
If your gonna increase the proc rate, please make it AT LEAST 1 min. It may as well be a guaranteed wipe once a minute, and a player holding onto a rsp with a one minute cd at least has a fighting chance when it procs every minute. Lot of ppl keep saying "adapt", but there is little chance of "adapting" if you keep being stripped every 30secs. This is also a "fight fire with fire" type of doff. Two teams of equal skill with one team running 15 of these doffs and one team running none will always go to the team running them. They will simply win through attrition of heals since the other team will have to make up the stripped heals every rotation of the doff cd.
how about this, give it the chance to do 1 of these 3 things per shot
strip 1 abilities- 1.2% chance, grants 30 second immunity
strip 2 abilities- 0.8% chance, grants 60 second immunity
strip 3 abilities- 0.4% chance, grants 90 second immunity
most powerful role wins, other successful roles discarded. im not a math expert, but since each doff would grants 3 rolls with a chance for one of these to succeed, the chance that it procs should proboly be quite low.
That's my point. The math for constant procs is based on 5 people running it. Not that hard with a good premade. If you increase the proc % back to what it was, I don't need 5 people running it for constant procs, I only need 1 or maybe 2. This is what made it so cried about when it was originally introduced. Minimal group changes for a huge gain in effectiveness. At least if all 5 people are running it it makes them give up BFI, Sci Team, Pattern doffs, etc across the entire group.
Nixus
Only way I could see to prove one way or the other is if a time stamped log showing the person using it and what target either be npc or a player and see how often it procs. Although based on my observations most of these that are going on are from the free ships that you can get as you level up. Most of those who are not playing legit are often using throw away accounts so if they get caught they can just move to another account for pvp purposes.
Therefore, if you really only care for immunity numbers, here is my suggestion: 2 min immunity and one buff stripped per doff.
NPCs usually have only one buff up at a time, so this is enough for PVE.
(And just to rub it in: There is a way to restore PVP balance without even touching PVE. Find some courage and face the Geko! :P)
That's far too large of a nerf. Stripping 2-3 buffs without any immunity would be fine. But why not just remove the strip effect and apply a cooldown penalty to the target instead?
Nah, you did good. Thank you.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Hilbert had this for a reason for 2 min. I happen to agree with him.
Even a three doff strip is a HUGE advantage in pvp. And it's the "lite" version of the crowning captain only sci power. Making it faster than the actual Sci Captains seriously calls in to question the need to sci captains and their usefulness.
Nixus
30 sec immunity
3 buffs stripped
1% proc rate
These changes should appear on Tribble soon, and I'd like to hear more feedback after you've gotten your hands on 'em.
They might not be as big of changes as this community wants, but I'm keeping an eye on them to see if more is truly warranted.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Immunity is applied to the target. If you switch targets, you have another chance to proc.
This does not affect SNB in any way.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thanks for the making the immunity doff specific. As soon as it hit's tribble we will take a couple of premades over there and try it out.
Nixus
I'm starting to feel like you're just trolling me now.
It has no effect on SNB. What more do you want me to tell you?
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Good changes... this should make them far less of a pain in a group situation... it in fact makes them better in PvE where enemies never have more then 2 buffs up anyway, and the proc rate is getting doubled.
Good changes.
He is not trolling, he is just pointing out that Cryptic's track record with patches has been... less than optimal. You might remember the Omega engines, the MACO shield, the Jem'hadar shield and many things more that had highly problematic unintended side effects because you guys did not test it properly.
And SNB is just too important of a captain skill to risk a patch with the "usual" quality.
This doff, 0.5sec after it removes 3 buffs, places an invisible flag onto the target, specific to this doff's power. It is called "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" and it lasts 30sec.
No player will ever have the ability to see this flag without the use of dev-level debug commands.
This flag is read by one power, and only one. That power, is this doff. If it attempts to proc again, it looks for the flag on the target. If the flag is present, the proc is discarded instead of being applied. If the flag is not present, the proc goes off, buffs are stripped, a flag is applied, and the whole process repeats.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thanks for the explanation.
lol, that would be funny if that "Doff_Proc_Buffstrip" flag made some one immune from a traditional snb too. that might have been what he wanted to make sure was not going to happen.
we will see how those changes go, its certainly better then before i think.
No way my science officer abilities gets even more nerfed by pvp crybabies!
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Thank you. From your description of the implementation it sounds like it should be good. Hilbert is correct that I'm not trying to troll you, I just want to make sure that things go smoothly. If previous changes didn't have a history of severely breaking related powers I wouldn't have said anything. Given the importance of the Subnuke power -- and less than rosy past development history -- I think I made a fair inquiry, no?
It should come as no surprise by now bort that while in other forums you may browse players don't want or need that much detail of how the power will work, but in this forum these details are exactly what we want to know. Thanks for spelling out how the power "should" work when changed
I think 1% makes this still too powerful. Having to run three of them to have a high likelihood of proccing in the duration of your alpha strike, which was where they were at 0.5%, means giving up significant advantages elsewhere. If you can get a good likelihood with 1-2 of them, you can have this super-powerful ability, and give up very little to get it.
I think that if they kept the 0.5% chance with all the other changes nobody would use SNB doffs anymore. Why not try 1% and if it's still an issue, perhaps drop it down to 0.75?
and a follow up, how does it determine which buffs will get stripped anyways? randomly? first come first serve? etc etc.
itf its a preset way it determines which buffs are stripped is there anyways to make sure it doesnt only just keep stipping those buffs?