Agreed, regarding DC/DHCs being useless without a proper turnrate stat. About the only KDF cruiser/battlecruiser that can actually use cannons properly is the Vor'cha/Tor'kaht/K'Tinga, and that's if you give 'em Aux to Dampeners, evasive Conn doffs, Pattern Omega, and stick 1-2 RCS consoles on 'em.
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).
you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"
WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.
using more then 2 turn consoles is fairly build derailing, 4 to just get what my vorcha can have with 2 really illustrates my point. it turns less for no reason. the ship just has to turn enough for it to use single cannons reasonably well, 10 base with just 1 or 2 turn consoles would accomplish that well. the regent with a base of 9 would work ok too. 8 base is the absolute minimum for single cannon usefulness in pvp imo. it can be hard to even keep good broad side up time with less then 8 turn on a target at close range
I frequently throw my ship in reverse and do epe to keep targets in arc. I was doing it just a few minutes ago with my GalX. I love throwing a cruiser in reverse.
@bitemepwe: Surely i tried that ship but i just can't stand it looks (to say it mildly).
Yes i also have tried the D'Kora, Galor and the new Regent. Those ships are great, i wish all Federation ships had similar BOFF & Console layouts. My issue is that i don't like them very much (in fact having the D'Kora, Excelsior and the Galor generating more Firepower than a Galaxy Class is a joke IMHO).
For me, the only satisfying Fed Cruiser is the Regent Class. Lots of Tac BOFF slots, a good amout of Engieering BOFF slots and even a Lt. universal BOFF slot. (I just wish it would look more like a Galaxy Class ).
Live long and prosper.
So because every ship but the Galaxy isn't visually pleasing enough for you means that you wont use them and you end up demanding an increase in the turn rate of the Galaxy? There is a ship that you admit you like play-style wise, stop griping and use the Regent. Heck if you use the Sovreign scheme the saucer section is the Galaxy's turned 90 degrees, its like you have part of the Galaxy in it. To complain that the most powerful ship in the game isnt the best looking (Galaxy) is about the same as the T5 Constitution guys demanding a VA Connie. Face it, its not going to happen.
I HATE the look of the Garumba, but its an awesome ship, and I use it all of the time on my KDF.
So because every ship but the Galaxy isn't visually pleasing enough for you means that you wont use them and you end up demanding an increase in the turn rate of the Galaxy? There is a ship that you admit you like play-style wise, stop griping and use the Regent. Heck if you use the Sovreign scheme the saucer section is the Galaxy's turned 90 degrees, its like you have part of the Galaxy in it. To complain that the most powerful ship in the game isnt the best looking (Galaxy) is about the same as the T5 Constitution guys demanding a VA Connie. Face it, its not going to happen.
I HATE the look of the Garumba, but its an awesome ship, and I use it all of the time on my KDF.
I just find cruisers (including the regent) in STO to be too static and thus just boring.
In my opinion they don't need to be that slow turning, the devs should give them similar turn rates as science ships IMO.
I really think it wouldn't be game breaking or balance breaking. They just wouldn't be as boring to fly as they are now.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).
you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"
WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.
Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
I DON'T want Fed battlecruisers. However, I have trouble seeing how the heck a battlecruiser's gonna keep it's nose on an escort in PvP without the aforementioned buffs. I don't give a flying eff about PvE, it doesn't require max performance out of your ship build anywhere except no-win and maybe elite STFs. Of course you can keep the nose of the Vor'cha on a snail-speed probes/spheres, or on the dumb-as-rocks NPCs you go up against. PvE is not the standard of measure we should be using, and for good reason.
In PvP (where the specifics of game mechanics are actually put to the test, and players have to have SKILL and TIMING, as opposed to mindlessly spamming the spacebar), you have to have some of these things to use your DHCs/DCs against escorts, which are always moving pretty darn fast (using 1-2 omegas, evasive conn doffs, batteries, deuterium, etc). Against other cruisers, you don't need 'em as much.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).
you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"
WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.
Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
wow, this here? so pve it hurts, my god.
and were back to everyone's ideologies and what they 'feel'. thats a bunch of TRIBBLE. the ships are a group of stats with a ship avatar attached to them. there is a grave imbalance between these groups of stats from faction to faction. the only ideology that maters here is the pursuit of balance.
False. You're trying to make balance = identical. That's not it at all. Balance across the entire faction is already there. Across all ship classes. You're just whining for a more manueverable cruiser. That's not balance, not by a long shot.
P.S. PvP is so broken and boring it should NOT be the measure to base things upon. It isn't the reason people play this game. It's an afterthought. You look at the history of the development of this game and that's abundantly clear.
False. You're trying to make balance = identical. That's not it at all. Balance across the entire faction is already there. Across all ship classes. You're just whining for a more manueverable cruiser. That's not balance, not by a long shot.
P.S. PvP is so broken and boring it should NOT be the measure to base things upon. It isn't the reason people play this game. It's an afterthought. You look at the history of the development of this game and that's abundantly clear.
they would still not even be close to identical, no other changes are being purposed. fed cruisers would still turn worse, have a bit more hull, 4 devices, no cloak, and no DC use. the only thing im saying should change, again, is the turn rate, buffed by 2, so their turn rate isn't such a liability and an anomaly compared to all other ships in game.
the only people that think pvp is broken are those that don't know how to play. its not perfect, but its mostly solid. pvp is the only place were balance is a 'thing'. shooting helpless npcs has nothing to do with balance. it just has to look cool and npcs need to die. the entire game was built around player ships fighting player ships, the stats and abilities were all created to interact when players use them against other players. its abundantly clear that the only class you should bother pveing in is tactical, science and toothless engineering captains are nearly worthless in pve. game doesn't seem purpose built for pve after all.
they would still not even be close to identical, no other changes are being purposed. fed cruisers would still turn worse, have a bit more hull, 4 devices, no cloak, and no DC use. the only thing im saying should change, again, is the turn rate, buffed by 2, so their turn rate isn't such a liability and an anomaly compared to all other ships in game.
the only people that think pvp is broken are those that don't know how to play. its not perfect, but its mostly solid. pvp is the only place were balance is a 'thing'. shooting helpless npcs has nothing to do with balance. it just has to look cool and npcs need to die. the entire game was built around player ships fighting player ships, the stats and abilities were all created to interact when players use them against other players. its abundantly clear that the only class you should bother pveing in is tactical, science and toothless engineering captains are nearly worthless in pve. game doesn't seem purpose built for pve after all.
Yeah, if this game were really built around PvE, the boff skills would not be what they are. . .simply because most of 'em are either not needed, or are useless against NPCs (subnucleonic beam being one). For every skill in a player's arsenal, there is a possible counter to it (subnukes cleared by sci team, debuffs cleared by tac team, etc). About the only thing that doesn't seem to have a direct 'counter', in my experience, is RSP. You'd have to try shooting through it with Directed Energy Modulation, or try to massively drain away the shields with drain builds, and even that is an imperfect solution.
PvP should have more prominence in the game when it comes to resources and play options. . .the fact that it does not is a travesty and a major waste of potential gameplay. PvP is not 'broken', it's just challenging. True, there are some players that can effectively faceroll everyone else all by themselves (min-maxers and other high-skill players that really squeeze every ounce of potential out of their stats). But even they have weaknesses, there's no such thing as a perfect, unbeatable build. Tractor-beam or otherwise immobilize a tanky escort enough, and you'll land enough DPS to kill it. They are also not the norm, they are the elite. Most of 'em have some sense of fair play, as well.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
PvP should have more prominence in the game when it comes to resources and play options. . .the fact that it does not is a travesty and a major waste of potential gameplay. PvP is not 'broken', it's just challenging. True, there are some players that can effectively faceroll everyone else all by themselves (min-maxers and other high-skill players that really squeeze every ounce of potential out of their stats). But even they have weaknesses, there's no such thing as a perfect, unbeatable build. Tractor-beam or otherwise immobilize a tanky escort enough, and you'll land enough DPS to kill it. They are also not the norm, they are the elite. Most of 'em have some sense of fair play, as well.
This.
I am personally known to have one of the best tanks in my fleet, it only takes about 3 or 4 good Escorts about 5 minutes to take me down, but that's me flying an Odyssey Tank/Healer build. The reason I have gone for that is because Fed Cruisers (like the Odyssey) are better tanks, in that they can Shield tank much much better. The Odyssey has the highest Shield Modifier of any Cruiser in the game - of course I'm gonna use it as my tank. But my build is far from perfect, when most of my good healing buffs are on, all it takes is a Science ship to sub-nuc me and I've lost my strong advantage. This means you can't just use brute force against my build all of the time, you have to be clever.
I then decided to get a DPS Tank build, and found most of the Fed ones useless, because they are so danged Tanky. I then stumbled across the Negh'var and the Vor'cha, and was amazed at the stats. I (naturally) fly those now, as well as the Bortasqu', for DPS Tanks, but none of them I have geared for my usually setup of Tanky/Healer, because KDF Battle Cruisers just aren't good at it (at least in terms of Shield tanking compared to Fed cruisers).
My point is, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have advantages and disadvantages. Cruisers are healboats, and Battle Cruisers are..... meant for battle. People are complaining the Cruisers don't have enough turn rate or DPS compared to the Battle Cruiser, do they need it? In PvE you can shoot stuff all day and it wouldn't make a difference what your build is, but PvP is exactly what brings you to the test. That's where you maximise the strengths of your ships. Oh, Feds have Escorts for damage, Cruisers for healboats and Science Vessels for debuffers. KDF have BattleCruisers, Raiders, Raptors and Destroyers as DPS, but only have a couple of Flight-Deck Cruisers and a Carrier for healboats. Oh, sure the Klingons have better DPS orientated ship... they are the Klingons dude! Of course they do! :P
In either case, the KDF have fewer healboats, so assuming their ships get damage quite a bit by a few rounds of Escort passes, they don't have many ships to choose from when they try to heal themselves. Granted, the BattleCruisers do kinda, but not to the extent as the Fed Cruisers. The Fed Cruisers can keep Escorts alive all day, the KDF ships can't, there simply isn't enough of them and assuming there will be, they'll compromising on DPS, which is their strength as the overall fleet.
This once again comes down to the way the Fed fleet and KDF fleets are designed, Fed Cruisers are meant to be healboats, they are big builky head-to-kill things that nobody in their right mind would touch unless they have a good team, but Battle Cruisers are the Escort/Cruiser hybrid, bringing with them less survivability.
Play my missions on Holodeck! Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series) Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series) Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
Fed Cruisers are meant to be healboats, they are big builky head-to-kill things that nobody in their right mind would touch unless they have a good team.
I'm sorry but I don't like the fact that I should be forced to heal my team-mates and do no damage to anything, If I am doing a solo mission for example in a cruiser I can't do anything to the NPCs because they have too much damned health and resistance to my beams stupidly low damage 1/4 that of DHCs (of the same energy type) I can tank all day long but that's only half the fight and it's no fun either, I play a cruiser so that I can adapt and still manage to kill something SOLO in a fair time my escort takes 20 seconds to kill a borg negh'var in CSE solo my cruiser takes about 2 or more minutes to do the same job. I can understand that cruisers shouldn't be able to keep up with tactical buffs and abilities but I shouldn't be unable to do damage because I'm in a cruiser.
An example of this is shortly before season six I was going through elite STFs destroying ships fairly quickly in my cruiser and still watching escorts do so far more quickly, this was far more fun than it is now, I was able to tank my way through the more powerful ships in the game while doing the damage needed to take it down before it took me down, this gave me a better ability to handle PvP as well. However under the current system I can't take down some of the larger targets as they simply force me to tank and I just can't push the damage output to break that. THIS is the problem I have with cruisers, not the turn rate.
I'm sorry but I don't like the fact that I should be forced to heal my team-mates and do no damage to anything, If I am doing a solo mission for example in a cruiser I can't do anything to the NPCs because they have too much damned health and resistance to my beams stupidly low damage 1/4 that of DHCs (of the same energy type) I can tank all day long but that's only half the fight and it's no fun either, I play a cruiser so that I can adapt and still manage to kill something SOLO in a fair time my escort takes 20 seconds to kill a borg negh'var in CSE solo my cruiser takes about 2 or more minutes to do the same job. I can understand that cruisers shouldn't be able to keep up with tactical buffs and abilities but I shouldn't be unable to do damage because I'm in a cruiser.
An example of this is shortly before season six I was going through elite STFs destroying ships fairly quickly in my cruiser and still watching escorts do so far more quickly, this was far more fun than it is now, I was able to tank my way through the more powerful ships in the game while doing the damage needed to take it down before it took me down, this gave me a better ability to handle PvP as well. However under the current system I can't take down some of the larger targets as they simply force me to tank and I just can't push the damage output to break that. THIS is the problem I have with cruisers, not the turn rate.
In PvE, all you need is a bunch of good weapons and 100 base into Weapon power level and you're sorted. Naturally, Escorts are supposed to decimate in 20 seconds, that is their pupose, to do damage. I have already explained that in PvP, Cruisers support the Escorts, otherwise the Escorts have no heals from an allied external source to fall back on.
Play my missions on Holodeck! Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series) Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series) Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
I would be able to tank an elite cube in my cruiser and before season 6 I did so but back then I had decent damage figures, now I'm running a slightly more refined build which should produce more damage (refined because it stopped doing the damage it used to) but is still feeble and frankly if this doesn't change I'm more than likely to turn my attention to another game because frankly as a casual player I'm fed up
I agree with cruisers supplying heals in PvP but it shouldn't come at the price of any and all damage capability
I agree with this, however I have a fleetmate who is a Tactical character and wants to fly Cruisers (Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovvy, etc.) and I provided him with a good tanky build. Because he is a Tactical with damage buffs, he can easily do damage in a Galaxy, and has drawn aggro than three other people in an STF whoa are all in Escorts that obliterate stuff in their path, and he doesnt have any points into Threat Control either.
The way I see it, Cruisers have to be adapted to the playstyle of the profession of the player's Captain. Engineers will have more tanky setups, Science characters will have more healing/debuff setups and Tacticals will always have that damage capability. This is the workaround to flying a Fed Cruiser with decent damage, use it with a Tactical character.
Some will argue that you want to maintain the ability of tanking... you are a Cruiser, you have that already :P. Some will also argue with the fact that Engineering should be able to do damage also, I agree, all should, but knowhere near to the extent of Tactical Captains in Escorts or, in this case, Cruisers.
Basically, if you want to fly a Cruiser, I suggest using this rule:-
You want a Tanky Cruiser? Use an Engineer. You want a debuffing/healing Cruiser? Use a Science Officer. You want a DPS Cruiser? Use a Tactical.
Play my missions on Holodeck! Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series) Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series) Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
You want a Tanky Cruiser? Use an Engineer. You want a debuffing/healing Cruiser? Use a Science Officer. You want a DPS Cruiser? Use a Tactical.
The thing is that cruisers are supposed to adapt, I don't want one OR the other OR the next, what I want from my cruiser is to be capable of all of these roles to a degree, so I may not be The best in any role so I won't be the ultimate tank or the ultimate damage dealing cruiser or the ultimate healing cruiser, but I will be damned good Support cruiser as I will be capable of all these roles up to a point and beyond that you will need a specialised ship.
This is what I used to run before season 6 went live but with season 6 they robbed me of my damage capability, the role I'm looking for is what I expect from a ship that claims to be a vessel of exploration, if you are exploring then you don't know what you are up against so you build something that can:
1: Defend itself in the event that it should encounter a hostile force, meaning it has to do fair amounts of damage (DPSl)
2: For the above reason it must be able to take some punishment (Tank)
3: As it is exploring it must have the ability to investigate things (Science)
An exploration vessel should have the ability to specialise in one of these categories but still fulfil the other two at the same time. Under the rule you have suggested there would be no Exploration vessels, you would have a similar thing to the oddy, have a tac version, an engi version and a sci version and none is capable of properly handling all possible occurrences, something an exploration vessel should do
I then decided to get a DPS Tank build, and found most of the Fed ones useless, because they are so danged Tanky. I then stumbled across the Negh'var and the Vor'cha, and was amazed at the stats. I (naturally) fly those now, as well as the Bortasqu', for DPS Tanks, but none of them I have geared for my usually setup of Tanky/Healer, because KDF Battle Cruisers just aren't good at it (at least in terms of Shield tanking compared to Fed cruisers).
Thats the point, most people wanting to fly a Cruiser want to to that because they expect those ships to be like in the shows. Able to take care of themselves and able to do a good amount of damage. Federation Cruisers can't do this very well compared to other ships in this game.
Of course you can tickle your enemy to death, but thats not what most of us want your ships to do.
Surely one can use some BOFF powers that support DPS for a cruiser, but they are by far not powerful enough to my expectations and standards. Thats why many people (including myself) are dissappointed with Federation Cruisers, serving as healboats is boring and not fun (IMO), especially when doing Solo PvE or just casual Ker'rat PvP missions.
You can however fly a Galor, D'Kora or Regent (if you got the EC/ZEN), but in my opinion all Starfleet cruisers should just as able to do a good amount of Damage (and be more maneuverable) and they shouldn't be as boring as they are now.
In my opinion Federation Cruisers are the most boring and dull ships in the Game. (althrough they are the most iconic ones, the devs must have a wierd sense of humor. )
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
In my opinion Federation Cruisers are the most boring and dull ships in the Game.
You know they are also the most popular and (second only to fed sci ships) the least catered to hence my request for a general balancing at the Player level rather than the ship level so that they can work with the ships pretty much the way they are but have a 'normalised' balance level between professions and weapons see:
The issue is game play style. KDF BCs are designed for DPS.
Feds are by design meant to out grind a KDF assault and counter w/their Sci's and Escorts. Fed Cruisers are generally there to support repair teammates while applying Broadside pressure DPS. This is why Fed Cruisers are tankier b/c the Boff layout fits that role very well.
(In real life) if Starfleet and the KDF were two actual factions and they were "at war" with each other, Starfleet would be kneeling before its' KDF counterparts and the battle between the factions would last less than 30 days. The ships the Feds have just wouldn't cut it against the KDF. Does anyone really think the Feds would stand a freakin' chance against the KDF? So, why pretend in-game? It's foolish!
You know they are also the most popular and (second only to fed sci ships) the least catered to hence my request for a general balancing at the Player level rather than the ship level so that they can work with the ships pretty much the way they are but have a 'normalised' balance level between professions and weapons see:
If they enacted that then all the ships would be more fun and new content would be easier to produce
The majority of the players in Cruisers must be addicted to PvE. In PvP most players in a Cruiser get their arses reamed. Go into Kerr'at. Over, and over, and over again I see players in cruisers being tormented and constantly are blowing up. You don't see KDF blowing up nearly as much. Therefore, one must assume Fed players in Cruisers are morons, don't know how to play the game, or simply just go into PvP areas and don't care if their ships suck and are not prepared for combat...OR KDF players are just that much more skilled. Harsh words, but true! How many of you are probably salivating to rip me a new A-hole for saying this, but...go into a PvP area you you KNOW ITS TRUE!
(In real life) if Starfleet and the KDF were two actual factions and they were "at war" with each other, Starfleet would be kneeling before its' KDF counterparts and the battle between the factions would last less than 30 days. The ships the Feds have just wouldn't cut it against the KDF. Does anyone really think the Feds would stand a freakin' chance against the KDF? So, why pretend in-game? It's foolish!
Ok, firstly this, if the federation couldn't stand up to the KDF then they wouldn't have survived the multiple wars they have had with them and they wouldn't have survived Wolf 359, which they did, so don't tell me how rubbish fed cruisers are.
one must assume Fed players in Cruisers are morons, don't know how to play the game, or simply just go into PvP areas and don't care if their ships suck and are not prepared for combat...
On the subject of this, I'm not going to get overly annoyed over this, but i will offer you a 1 on 1 PvP with my cruiser as I rebuilt the ship shortly before season 6 as a result of a PvP I had with a friend, I was able to hold them off but I was eventually beaten by them, I then rebuilt the ship and they refused to give me a rematch.
No, I can't tank as well as some of the hardcore PvPers can and no I can't dish out the Hardcore PvP damage figures, I'm a casual player but I can hold my own in a 1 on 1. (My handle is @adamkafei if you want to take up the offer)
Some of you expert players have spent a lot of time explaining the
Role of tbe Fed cruiser I'n this game.
The problem is this
Fed cruisers are not heal boats designed to support tiny
Support ships I'n cannon,
Archer was a cruiser caption (cruiser )
Kirk was a cruiser caption. ( heavy cruiser )
Picard was a cruiser caption. ( battleship )
Sisko was a escort/destroyer caption
Janeway was a destroyer caption
This is what Fans saw this is what they want
The role picked by this game I'n no way resembles
What we all know the true role of these ships were.
The dungeons and dragons adventure party mentality
Of cryptic is the problem
As a long time fan of star trek I find the role
Of Fed cruisers protrayed in this game insulting
New fans to the game will be disappointed then angry
And then they will leave
At least pve is somewhat enjoyable I'n a Fed cruiser
It's the only thing saving this game, pve is the only place
Where the game feels like star trek
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Fed cruisers are not heal boats designed to support tiny
Support ships I'n cannon,
Exactly, if we look at canon, it's quite the opposite, the cruisers do the work, do damage, take damage Simultaneously while the escorts provide quick punch with low defence (They were built to be glass cannons LITERALLY in every sense of the term) and the science ships did science ship stuff
STO is not canon and nobody has any business supporting STO with canon, it's quite the opposite and it's about time people realised this and that cryptic/PWE realised this and more importantly ACTED upon it
So we are back to canon again? I was given the impression that canon was not to be used in this thread on an aspect of gameplay.
If so then I say that the KDF battle cruisers in STO, as one of two very dominate types, are portrayed very well with the faster turn and DPS minded design fits very well with what we see as canon for klingon society.
I still like my idea of raising the base turnrate of both fed cruisers and KDF battle cruisers by 1to 2 points each and everyone is happy. The fed cruiser become alittle more agile and fun to play and the KDF battle cruisers lose nothing for the change.
So we are back to canon again? I was given the impression that canon was not to be used in this thread on an aspect of gameplay.
If so then I say that the KDF battle cruisers in STO, as one of two very dominate types, are portrayed very well with the faster turn and DPS minded design fits very well with what we see as canon for klingon society.
Ok, I would have this conversation on my thread dedicated to ship balance (That's where it belongs) but as I have said earlier fed cruisers shouldn't be incapable of being independent simply because they should be dishing out heals. Here I explained the requirements of an exploration cruiser, which is exactly what the federation built.
I still like my idea of raising the base turnrate of both fed cruisers and KDF battle cruisers by 1to 2 points each and everyone is happy. The fed cruiser become alittle more agile and fun to play and the KDF battle cruisers lose nothing for the change.
With regard to this, I don't have a problem with it either (though it might made keeping a target in my broadside using my Excelsior) it would make the vast majority of cruisers more viable. With regard to the person complaining about the Galaxy class, it was always designed even by Starfleet to have all it's firepower forward facing so while yes while at a near standstill it should turn like nobody's business, it's so big that with any forward speed it is going to be slow, it is always going to be slow and due to it's design flaws, there is nothing anyone can do about that. (except waste console space on RCS and max out your impulse thrusters+engine performance)
Comments
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).
you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"
WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.
Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
I frequently throw my ship in reverse and do epe to keep targets in arc. I was doing it just a few minutes ago with my GalX. I love throwing a cruiser in reverse.
So because every ship but the Galaxy isn't visually pleasing enough for you means that you wont use them and you end up demanding an increase in the turn rate of the Galaxy? There is a ship that you admit you like play-style wise, stop griping and use the Regent. Heck if you use the Sovreign scheme the saucer section is the Galaxy's turned 90 degrees, its like you have part of the Galaxy in it. To complain that the most powerful ship in the game isnt the best looking (Galaxy) is about the same as the T5 Constitution guys demanding a VA Connie. Face it, its not going to happen.
I HATE the look of the Garumba, but its an awesome ship, and I use it all of the time on my KDF.
In my opinion they don't need to be that slow turning, the devs should give them similar turn rates as science ships IMO.
I really think it wouldn't be game breaking or balance breaking. They just wouldn't be as boring to fly as they are now.
Live long and prosper.
I DON'T want Fed battlecruisers. However, I have trouble seeing how the heck a battlecruiser's gonna keep it's nose on an escort in PvP without the aforementioned buffs. I don't give a flying eff about PvE, it doesn't require max performance out of your ship build anywhere except no-win and maybe elite STFs. Of course you can keep the nose of the Vor'cha on a snail-speed probes/spheres, or on the dumb-as-rocks NPCs you go up against. PvE is not the standard of measure we should be using, and for good reason.
In PvP (where the specifics of game mechanics are actually put to the test, and players have to have SKILL and TIMING, as opposed to mindlessly spamming the spacebar), you have to have some of these things to use your DHCs/DCs against escorts, which are always moving pretty darn fast (using 1-2 omegas, evasive conn doffs, batteries, deuterium, etc). Against other cruisers, you don't need 'em as much.
wow, this here? so pve it hurts, my god.
and were back to everyone's ideologies and what they 'feel'. thats a bunch of TRIBBLE. the ships are a group of stats with a ship avatar attached to them. there is a grave imbalance between these groups of stats from faction to faction. the only ideology that maters here is the pursuit of balance.
P.S. PvP is so broken and boring it should NOT be the measure to base things upon. It isn't the reason people play this game. It's an afterthought. You look at the history of the development of this game and that's abundantly clear.
they would still not even be close to identical, no other changes are being purposed. fed cruisers would still turn worse, have a bit more hull, 4 devices, no cloak, and no DC use. the only thing im saying should change, again, is the turn rate, buffed by 2, so their turn rate isn't such a liability and an anomaly compared to all other ships in game.
the only people that think pvp is broken are those that don't know how to play. its not perfect, but its mostly solid. pvp is the only place were balance is a 'thing'. shooting helpless npcs has nothing to do with balance. it just has to look cool and npcs need to die. the entire game was built around player ships fighting player ships, the stats and abilities were all created to interact when players use them against other players. its abundantly clear that the only class you should bother pveing in is tactical, science and toothless engineering captains are nearly worthless in pve. game doesn't seem purpose built for pve after all.
Yeah, if this game were really built around PvE, the boff skills would not be what they are. . .simply because most of 'em are either not needed, or are useless against NPCs (subnucleonic beam being one). For every skill in a player's arsenal, there is a possible counter to it (subnukes cleared by sci team, debuffs cleared by tac team, etc). About the only thing that doesn't seem to have a direct 'counter', in my experience, is RSP. You'd have to try shooting through it with Directed Energy Modulation, or try to massively drain away the shields with drain builds, and even that is an imperfect solution.
PvP should have more prominence in the game when it comes to resources and play options. . .the fact that it does not is a travesty and a major waste of potential gameplay. PvP is not 'broken', it's just challenging. True, there are some players that can effectively faceroll everyone else all by themselves (min-maxers and other high-skill players that really squeeze every ounce of potential out of their stats). But even they have weaknesses, there's no such thing as a perfect, unbeatable build. Tractor-beam or otherwise immobilize a tanky escort enough, and you'll land enough DPS to kill it. They are also not the norm, they are the elite. Most of 'em have some sense of fair play, as well.
This.
I am personally known to have one of the best tanks in my fleet, it only takes about 3 or 4 good Escorts about 5 minutes to take me down, but that's me flying an Odyssey Tank/Healer build. The reason I have gone for that is because Fed Cruisers (like the Odyssey) are better tanks, in that they can Shield tank much much better. The Odyssey has the highest Shield Modifier of any Cruiser in the game - of course I'm gonna use it as my tank. But my build is far from perfect, when most of my good healing buffs are on, all it takes is a Science ship to sub-nuc me and I've lost my strong advantage. This means you can't just use brute force against my build all of the time, you have to be clever.
I then decided to get a DPS Tank build, and found most of the Fed ones useless, because they are so danged Tanky. I then stumbled across the Negh'var and the Vor'cha, and was amazed at the stats. I (naturally) fly those now, as well as the Bortasqu', for DPS Tanks, but none of them I have geared for my usually setup of Tanky/Healer, because KDF Battle Cruisers just aren't good at it (at least in terms of Shield tanking compared to Fed cruisers).
My point is, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have advantages and disadvantages. Cruisers are healboats, and Battle Cruisers are..... meant for battle. People are complaining the Cruisers don't have enough turn rate or DPS compared to the Battle Cruiser, do they need it? In PvE you can shoot stuff all day and it wouldn't make a difference what your build is, but PvP is exactly what brings you to the test. That's where you maximise the strengths of your ships. Oh, Feds have Escorts for damage, Cruisers for healboats and Science Vessels for debuffers. KDF have BattleCruisers, Raiders, Raptors and Destroyers as DPS, but only have a couple of Flight-Deck Cruisers and a Carrier for healboats. Oh, sure the Klingons have better DPS orientated ship... they are the Klingons dude! Of course they do! :P
In either case, the KDF have fewer healboats, so assuming their ships get damage quite a bit by a few rounds of Escort passes, they don't have many ships to choose from when they try to heal themselves. Granted, the BattleCruisers do kinda, but not to the extent as the Fed Cruisers. The Fed Cruisers can keep Escorts alive all day, the KDF ships can't, there simply isn't enough of them and assuming there will be, they'll compromising on DPS, which is their strength as the overall fleet.
This once again comes down to the way the Fed fleet and KDF fleets are designed, Fed Cruisers are meant to be healboats, they are big builky head-to-kill things that nobody in their right mind would touch unless they have a good team, but Battle Cruisers are the Escort/Cruiser hybrid, bringing with them less survivability.
Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series)
Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series)
Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
I'm sorry but I don't like the fact that I should be forced to heal my team-mates and do no damage to anything, If I am doing a solo mission for example in a cruiser I can't do anything to the NPCs because they have too much damned health and resistance to my beams stupidly low damage 1/4 that of DHCs (of the same energy type) I can tank all day long but that's only half the fight and it's no fun either, I play a cruiser so that I can adapt and still manage to kill something SOLO in a fair time my escort takes 20 seconds to kill a borg negh'var in CSE solo my cruiser takes about 2 or more minutes to do the same job. I can understand that cruisers shouldn't be able to keep up with tactical buffs and abilities but I shouldn't be unable to do damage because I'm in a cruiser.
An example of this is shortly before season six I was going through elite STFs destroying ships fairly quickly in my cruiser and still watching escorts do so far more quickly, this was far more fun than it is now, I was able to tank my way through the more powerful ships in the game while doing the damage needed to take it down before it took me down, this gave me a better ability to handle PvP as well. However under the current system I can't take down some of the larger targets as they simply force me to tank and I just can't push the damage output to break that. THIS is the problem I have with cruisers, not the turn rate.
In PvE, all you need is a bunch of good weapons and 100 base into Weapon power level and you're sorted. Naturally, Escorts are supposed to decimate in 20 seconds, that is their pupose, to do damage. I have already explained that in PvP, Cruisers support the Escorts, otherwise the Escorts have no heals from an allied external source to fall back on.
Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series)
Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series)
Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
I agree with this, however I have a fleetmate who is a Tactical character and wants to fly Cruisers (Excelsior, Galaxy, Sovvy, etc.) and I provided him with a good tanky build. Because he is a Tactical with damage buffs, he can easily do damage in a Galaxy, and has drawn aggro than three other people in an STF whoa are all in Escorts that obliterate stuff in their path, and he doesnt have any points into Threat Control either.
The way I see it, Cruisers have to be adapted to the playstyle of the profession of the player's Captain. Engineers will have more tanky setups, Science characters will have more healing/debuff setups and Tacticals will always have that damage capability. This is the workaround to flying a Fed Cruiser with decent damage, use it with a Tactical character.
Some will argue that you want to maintain the ability of tanking... you are a Cruiser, you have that already :P. Some will also argue with the fact that Engineering should be able to do damage also, I agree, all should, but knowhere near to the extent of Tactical Captains in Escorts or, in this case, Cruisers.
Basically, if you want to fly a Cruiser, I suggest using this rule:-
You want a Tanky Cruiser? Use an Engineer. You want a debuffing/healing Cruiser? Use a Science Officer. You want a DPS Cruiser? Use a Tactical.
Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series)
Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series)
Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
The thing is that cruisers are supposed to adapt, I don't want one OR the other OR the next, what I want from my cruiser is to be capable of all of these roles to a degree, so I may not be The best in any role so I won't be the ultimate tank or the ultimate damage dealing cruiser or the ultimate healing cruiser, but I will be damned good Support cruiser as I will be capable of all these roles up to a point and beyond that you will need a specialised ship.
This is what I used to run before season 6 went live but with season 6 they robbed me of my damage capability, the role I'm looking for is what I expect from a ship that claims to be a vessel of exploration, if you are exploring then you don't know what you are up against so you build something that can:
1: Defend itself in the event that it should encounter a hostile force, meaning it has to do fair amounts of damage (DPSl)
2: For the above reason it must be able to take some punishment (Tank)
3: As it is exploring it must have the ability to investigate things (Science)
An exploration vessel should have the ability to specialise in one of these categories but still fulfil the other two at the same time. Under the rule you have suggested there would be no Exploration vessels, you would have a similar thing to the oddy, have a tac version, an engi version and a sci version and none is capable of properly handling all possible occurrences, something an exploration vessel should do
Of course you can tickle your enemy to death, but thats not what most of us want your ships to do.
Surely one can use some BOFF powers that support DPS for a cruiser, but they are by far not powerful enough to my expectations and standards. Thats why many people (including myself) are dissappointed with Federation Cruisers, serving as healboats is boring and not fun (IMO), especially when doing Solo PvE or just casual Ker'rat PvP missions.
You can however fly a Galor, D'Kora or Regent (if you got the EC/ZEN), but in my opinion all Starfleet cruisers should just as able to do a good amount of Damage (and be more maneuverable) and they shouldn't be as boring as they are now.
In my opinion Federation Cruisers are the most boring and dull ships in the Game.
(althrough they are the most iconic ones, the devs must have a wierd sense of humor.
Live long and prosper.
You know they are also the most popular and (second only to fed sci ships) the least catered to hence my request for a general balancing at the Player level rather than the ship level so that they can work with the ships pretty much the way they are but have a 'normalised' balance level between professions and weapons see:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=393911
If they enacted that then all the ships would be more fun and new content would be easier to produce
(In real life) if Starfleet and the KDF were two actual factions and they were "at war" with each other, Starfleet would be kneeling before its' KDF counterparts and the battle between the factions would last less than 30 days. The ships the Feds have just wouldn't cut it against the KDF. Does anyone really think the Feds would stand a freakin' chance against the KDF? So, why pretend in-game? It's foolish!
The majority of the players in Cruisers must be addicted to PvE. In PvP most players in a Cruiser get their arses reamed. Go into Kerr'at. Over, and over, and over again I see players in cruisers being tormented and constantly are blowing up. You don't see KDF blowing up nearly as much. Therefore, one must assume Fed players in Cruisers are morons, don't know how to play the game, or simply just go into PvP areas and don't care if their ships suck and are not prepared for combat...OR KDF players are just that much more skilled. Harsh words, but true! How many of you are probably salivating to rip me a new A-hole for saying this, but...go into a PvP area you you KNOW ITS TRUE!
Ok, firstly this, if the federation couldn't stand up to the KDF then they wouldn't have survived the multiple wars they have had with them and they wouldn't have survived Wolf 359, which they did, so don't tell me how rubbish fed cruisers are.
On the subject of this, I'm not going to get overly annoyed over this, but i will offer you a 1 on 1 PvP with my cruiser as I rebuilt the ship shortly before season 6 as a result of a PvP I had with a friend, I was able to hold them off but I was eventually beaten by them, I then rebuilt the ship and they refused to give me a rematch.
No, I can't tank as well as some of the hardcore PvPers can and no I can't dish out the Hardcore PvP damage figures, I'm a casual player but I can hold my own in a 1 on 1. (My handle is @adamkafei if you want to take up the offer)
Role of tbe Fed cruiser I'n this game.
The problem is this
Fed cruisers are not heal boats designed to support tiny
Support ships I'n cannon,
Archer was a cruiser caption (cruiser )
Kirk was a cruiser caption. ( heavy cruiser )
Picard was a cruiser caption. ( battleship )
Sisko was a escort/destroyer caption
Janeway was a destroyer caption
This is what Fans saw this is what they want
The role picked by this game I'n no way resembles
What we all know the true role of these ships were.
The dungeons and dragons adventure party mentality
Of cryptic is the problem
As a long time fan of star trek I find the role
Of Fed cruisers protrayed in this game insulting
New fans to the game will be disappointed then angry
And then they will leave
At least pve is somewhat enjoyable I'n a Fed cruiser
It's the only thing saving this game, pve is the only place
Where the game feels like star trek
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Exactly, if we look at canon, it's quite the opposite, the cruisers do the work, do damage, take damage Simultaneously while the escorts provide quick punch with low defence (They were built to be glass cannons LITERALLY in every sense of the term) and the science ships did science ship stuff
STO is not canon and nobody has any business supporting STO with canon, it's quite the opposite and it's about time people realised this and that cryptic/PWE realised this and more importantly ACTED upon it
Rant over
If so then I say that the KDF battle cruisers in STO, as one of two very dominate types, are portrayed very well with the faster turn and DPS minded design fits very well with what we see as canon for klingon society.
I still like my idea of raising the base turnrate of both fed cruisers and KDF battle cruisers by 1to 2 points each and everyone is happy. The fed cruiser become alittle more agile and fun to play and the KDF battle cruisers lose nothing for the change.
R.I.P
this is win win cruisers can now turn but faster ships stay faster
Ok, I would have this conversation on my thread dedicated to ship balance (That's where it belongs) but as I have said earlier fed cruisers shouldn't be incapable of being independent simply because they should be dishing out heals. Here I explained the requirements of an exploration cruiser, which is exactly what the federation built.
With regard to this, I don't have a problem with it either (though it might made keeping a target in my broadside using my Excelsior) it would make the vast majority of cruisers more viable. With regard to the person complaining about the Galaxy class, it was always designed even by Starfleet to have all it's firepower forward facing so while yes while at a near standstill it should turn like nobody's business, it's so big that with any forward speed it is going to be slow, it is always going to be slow and due to it's design flaws, there is nothing anyone can do about that. (except waste console space on RCS and max out your impulse thrusters+engine performance)