Fed Cruisers are generally there to support repair teammates while applying Broadside pressure DPS
"Broadside pressure DPS" again, this is laughable, I take my engineer in their Excelsior and put them up against an oddy (with a broadside of at least 6 beams) I run tac team and rotate shield frequencies and watch my shields regen faster than their broadside is damaging them.
"Broadside pressure DPS" there's no pressure in that, there's no need for me to go defensive as a result of this and I'm getting the full force of it because I can't move as fast as any escort/science ship in the game, these are going to miss escorts at least 50% of the time so why the hell would they feel any pressure if I don't?
I have to agree with Yreodred in that every ship should be able to operate sensibly alone and unaided, that means they have to capable of destroying an enemy ship WITHOUT an escort to 'help' them, as I stated earlier:
you can tank until the cows come home... take everything in the game but if you can't dish out enough damage ... then you aren't going to kill anything and will have to continue tanking until an escort turns up unless there isn't one in which case you're going nowhere.
Sadly this is what has happened to the vast majority of fed cruisers, why should I fly a mere damage sponge as a result of choosing a cruiser, if I wanted a damage sponge i'd fly the oddy not an excelsior
I have to agree with Yreodred in that every ship should be able to operate sensibly alone and unaided, that means they have to capable of destroying an enemy ship WITHOUT an escort to 'help' them
How do you explain all the PvP'ers in Cruiser who can do exactly this^^. Attack, Defend against and destroy an enemy ship, be it NPC or Player, in combat?
I do agree that many of the Federation Cruisers need a turn rate boost because they are simply annoying and un-fun to play in PVE and PVP because you cannot seem to move or avoid anything.
So, if I were to agree to the increase in turn rate by 2 for every Federation Cruiser, than we must do something for the KDF Cruisers, because they have weaker shield modifiers and less hull! So I?d propose giving them an innate +5% all damage resistance to demonstrate that they have thicker and better built hulls for combat.
Also, while Federation Cruisers such as the Galaxy Class are larger than Klingon Cruisers, their overall mass is similar because the Klingons really pile on thick armor plating comparatively to the Federation who with their larger Warp Cores and redundant systems, relied more on technology and better shielding.
How do you explain all the PvP'ers in Cruiser who can do exactly this^^. Attack, Defend against and destroy an enemy ship, be it NPC or Player, in combat?
I can beat players but not by my ability to do damage but with my ability to use my ship, like me with other peoples broadsides NPCs will sit and laugh at me when I sit and broadside them.
As I have said previously dual EPTXs didn't work for me, I didn't have what I needed when I needed it and went boom more often with dual EPtX than without it and before season six went live it was a decent build that was good at everything (it stripped shields, it pounded hulls to death) more important it was capable of fulfilling defence and offence in a nicely balanced manner
how do I explain to you that a combination of 2 abilities can neutralise a broadside?
Ulti', you have played besides my engineer, Kaylee, the Excel' I use with that character has an average turn rate of 18.2 with only two rcs's, 16.1 with only one rcs. The balance of the engi' consoles arer Neutronium armor. Thats a pretty good turn rate for a cruiser (heck, even a sci) and still has 125 power to weapons while using a Lt. Commander tactical boff. Wouldn't you agree with me that the Feds' do have maneuvaerable (not neccesarily nimble) cruiser, its just not every cruiser thats the case.
Hey bud.
The Excel is decent, but it actually has a lesser turn rate than the base (RALH) Negh'var.
Which also has a cloak, can use DHCs and has the same hull. IIRC it has the same shield mod, but that I'm not 100% sure on atm.
On top of this, the Excel is on its way to being yesterday's ship as fleets slowly unlock the higher tiers of fleet ships.
Deal, you can have 1 more point of turn rate on the raptors(the only real piloting difference according to wiki) so that they are equal to the Fed escorts and one of your 20$ raptors without a combat cloak can have another Tac console.
The major problem with the Raptor is the turn axis.
While it has a base turn of 15, the axis is towards the rear of the ship - due to the placement of the forward guns on the in game model it actually suffers a performance decrease with lower arc weapons (DC/DHC, the best weapons for a Raptor).
This is something that should have been corrected a long time ago and it's why I generally stick to the Guramba for Escort style play KDF side.
So, if I were to agree to the increase in turn rate by 2 for every Federation Cruiser, than we must do something for the KDF Cruisers, because they have weaker shield modifiers and less hull!
I think you forgot that they have the ability to equip, and actually use, DHCs and DCs - as well as have innate cloaks that don't require a console.
the fed cruisers are basically only good at turtleling, healing, and shooting beam arrays for mild to moderate pressure damage.
the kdf cruisers have many different options. they can do everything a fed cruiser can, and a properly built DHC vorcha can be as dangerous as a cross between a fed cruiser, escort and sci ship combined.
with 3 turn rate consoles giving me 25 turn rate, a tractor beam and eject plasma i can keep someone immobilized for almost a minute, with only about 30 seconds down time in between. i got all the most powerful cruiser heals, wile at the same time i can effectively use escort weapons. vorcha is the funnest ship to fly imo
"Broadside pressure DPS" again, this is laughable, I take my engineer in their Excelsior and put them up against an oddy (with a broadside of at least 6 beams) I run tac team and rotate shield frequencies and watch my shields regen faster than their broadside is damaging them.
"Broadside pressure DPS" there's no pressure in that, there's no need for me to go defensive as a result of this and I'm getting the full force of it because I can't move as fast as any escort/science ship in the game, these are going to miss escorts at least 50% of the time so why the hell would they feel any pressure if I don't?
I have to agree with Yreodred in that every ship should be able to operate sensibly alone and unaided, that means they have to capable of destroying an enemy ship WITHOUT an escort to 'help' them, as I stated earlier:
Sadly this is what has happened to the vast majority of fed cruisers, why should I fly a mere damage sponge as a result of choosing a cruiser, if I wanted a damage sponge i'd fly the oddy not an excelsior
The fact Broadside pressure damage is underperforming has nothing to do w/turnrate perhaps you should read the rest of my post to find the reasons why instead of selectively taking things out of context.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I can beat players but not by my ability to do damage but with my ability to use my ship, like me with other peoples broadsides NPCs will sit and laugh at me when I sit and broadside them.
So you are out played by a NPC enemy, but not a real player enemy?
I don't understand how that can happen without the NPCs having 1-shot kills or metaphasic shielding or some such built in special ability that makes them hard to kill.
Can you not use the ship as well against teh NPCs as you do against the other players,
employing the same tactics to achieve a kill?
how do I explain to you that a combination of 2 abilities can neutralise a broadside
That you may be doing something wrong if the living players you fight die but the NPCs you fight, whom do not have rotating EPTx abilities, survive.
The Excel is decent, but it actually has a lesser turn rate than the base (RALH) Negh'var.
Which also has a cloak, can use DHCs and has the same hull. IIRC it has the same shield mod, but that I'm not 100% sure on atm.
On top of this, the Excel is on its way to being yesterday's ship as fleets slowly unlock the higher tiers of fleet ships.
The major problem with the Raptor is the turn axis.
While it has a base turn of 15, the axis is towards the rear of the ship - due to the placement of the forward guns on the in game model it actually suffers a performance decrease with lower arc weapons (DC/DHC, the best weapons for a Raptor).
This is something that should have been corrected a long time ago and it's why I generally stick to the Guramba for Escort style play KDF side.
I think you forgot that they have the ability to equip, and actually use, DHCs and DCs - as well as have innate cloaks that don't require a console.
It's not even close, KDF BCs are clearly and unequivocally superior to Fed Cruisers.
As dontdrunkimshoot once aptly said:
KDF BCs are better at doing damage by design. This doesn't mean KDF Cruisers can nor should do the roles Feds Cruisers can. A KDF cruiser is there to apply consistant high pressure damage to weaken targets for BoPs and Escorts to pick off. A KDF Cruiser isn't going to keep a KDF Raider in a fight like supporting a Tac Escort would in Fed Cruiser's case. Raiders are too weak. KDF Escorts don't have the fire power Feds have. A KDF cruiser doesn't have Fed Sci Ships consistantly debuffing targets as much as BoPs b/c BoPs have to run nor to KDF Sci ships come close to Fed Sci ship options. They're different playstyles and imo it's wrong for KDF Cruisers to try an emulate Fed Cruiser just as it's wrong for a BoP to try and emulate an Escort and Fed Cruisers to try and emulate KDF Cruisers.
Really why boost the turnrate? It does nothing to help the lacking broadside pressure damage. It takes away an existing playstyle.
On the other hand I agreed w/a previous poster that if there were a way to designate a Cruiser as a team "leader" to provide some sort of buff options for the team I'd be open to that. Particularly if it could be tailored by faction.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So you are out played by a NPC enemy, but not a real player enemy?
I don't understand how that can happen without the NPCs having 1-shot kills or metaphasic shielding or some such built in special ability that makes them hard to kill.
knowing the borg and new fleet action NPCs this is most likely true especially considering I have only had this issue since season 6 went live
The logical flaw is in assuming "Cruiser" and "Battlecruiser" are the same designation. They are not. No more than "Rear Admiral" and "Vice Admiral" are. But they both have part of the same word, right?? They should be the same right??? Yeah... riiiiight...
Quit whining and crying. They are not the same, and should not be the same. 2 different classes entirely.
The logical flaw is in assuming "Cruiser" and "Battlecruiser" are the same designation. They are not. No more than "Rear Admiral" and "Vice Admiral" are. But they both have part of the same word, right?? They should be the same right??? Yeah... riiiiight...
Quit whining and crying. They are not the same, and should not be the same. 2 different classes entirely.
That's right, they are not the same, but they're not balanced either. That's why people are asking for the buff to turn rate, not cloaks, not DHC's, a turn rate buff.
That's right, they are not the same, but they're not balanced either. That's why people are asking for the buff to turn rate, not cloaks, not DHC's, a turn rate buff.
You already GOT a cloak and DHC option. Dreadnaught, anyone?
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
It's not even close, KDF BCs are clearly and unequivocally superior to Fed Cruisers.
Even though the only difference between them is a 3 point turnrate difference and the ability to mount DHCs (which are useless without a good turnrate stat)
Sorry, the arguement that an average 3 point difference in turnrate and the ability to mount DHCs makes the fed fleet Cruisers useless in comparison to the Fleet KDF Battle Cruisers is silly considering they are not designed to the same playstyle.
One is a multitask designed Cruiser meant to use its Engineering and Science abilities to augment its tactical limitations to win in a fight.
While the other is a limited Science using vessel designed to dish out damage while relying on its Engineering abilites to keep it alive.
Its Apples versus Oranges. Bioth are edible but they do not taste of work the same way.
Having a higher turn rate will not make the fed Cruiser better at combat. It will not do more damage all of a sudden becuase of such a change, unless it relies on the use of Engineering or Science abilities coupled with that higher turn rate.
Suddenly mounting DHCs on every fed cruiser makes no sense as we never saw the Feds use cannons on thier vessels before the introduction of the Escort. Not even the famed Dreadnought (the AGT galaxy) used cannons in the show.
Everything that DDIS mentioned is irrelevant as the two factors that made the difference where simply the better turnrate and DHCs. Any fed cruiser can use EWP, heal and use Science abilities.
SO fix boost Cruisers and Battle Cruiser equally in turnrate and focus on fixing beams to be more damaging in combat becuase to just up the Fed cruiser to be equal to the KDF Battle Cruiser is silly.
It destroys any reason for faction vessel differences, makes the reasons to try another faction just that much less, as vessel gameplay would not change or feel even different and turns the game vanilla becuase the only place said changes would have any value is PvP.
And as many have stated STO is not a PvP focused game so making these changes is a ego driven choice to make the player feel better about playing other players only, it will not make an already easy PvE experience any easier.
Yeah, just upping the Cruisers turnrate instead of upping both the Cruiser and battle Cruisers by the same amount is a veiled attempt to overcome some percieved weakness of the Cruiser in PvP. A weakness that I have never seen, as many players fly thier cruisers very well in PvP.
Making DHCs widespread on all fed cruisers would be exactly the same, ego driven to compensate for poor vessel design or use on part of the player.
Even though the only difference between them is a 3 point turnrate difference and the ability to mount DHCs (which are useless without a good turnrate stat)
Sorry, the arguement that an average 3 point difference in turnrate and the ability to mount DHCs makes the fed fleet Cruisers useless in comparison to the Fleet KDF Battle Cruisers is silly considering they are not designed to the same playstyle.
One is a multitask designed Cruiser meant to use its Engineering and Science abilities to augment its tactical limitations to win in a fight.
While the other is a limited Science using vessel designed to dish out damage while relying on its Engineering abilites to keep it alive.
Its Apples versus Oranges. Bioth are edible but they do not taste of work the same way.
Having a higher turn rate will not make the fed Cruiser better at combat. It will not do more damage all of a sudden becuase of such a change, unless it relies on the use of Engineering or Science abilities coupled with that higher turn rate.
Suddenly mounting DHCs on every fed cruiser makes no sense as we never saw the Feds use cannons on thier vessels before the introduction of the Escort. Not even the famed Dreadnought (the AGT galaxy) used cannons in the show.
Everything that DDIS mentioned is irrelevant as the two factors that made the difference where simply the better turnrate and DHCs. Any fed cruiser can use EWP, heal and use Science abilities.
SO fix boost Cruisers and Battle Cruiser equally in turnrate and focus on fixing beams to be more damaging in combat becuase to just up the Fed cruiser to be equal to the KDF Battle Cruiser is silly.
It destroys any reason for faction vessel differences, makes the reasons to try another faction just that much less, as vessel gameplay would not change or feel even different and turns the game vanilla becuase the only place said changes would have any value is PvP.
And as many have stated STO is not a PvP focused game so making these changes is a ego driven choice to make the player feel better about playing other players only, it will not make an already easy PvE experience any easier.
Yeah, just upping the Cruisers turnrate instead of upping both the Cruiser and battle Cruisers by the same amount is a veiled attempt to overcome some percieved weakness of the Cruiser in PvP. A weakness that I have never seen, as many players fly thier cruisers very well in PvP.
Making DHCs widespread on all fed cruisers would be exactly the same, ego driven to compensate for poor vessel design or use.
Agreed, regarding DC/DHCs being useless without a proper turnrate stat. About the only KDF cruiser/battlecruiser that can actually use cannons properly is the Vor'cha/Tor'kaht/K'Tinga, and that's if you give 'em Aux to Dampeners, evasive Conn doffs, Pattern Omega, and stick 1-2 RCS consoles on 'em. It's a beast for DPS at that point, and probably outdoes the Raptors in tanking as well. But you're giving up a fair amount in exchange for that sort of tactical mobility.
Again, I'll say: If people want to fly a nimble cruiser, they should play KDF and get a Vor'cha/Tor'kaht, instead of just demanding/suggesting that Fed cruisers be given a higher turn rate.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
a single point of base turn rate is a huge deal. everything that buffs turn rate is multiplied by that base. in a vorcha with 10 base, i can have a high 20s turn rate easily. in my ktinga with its 11 base, i can even get mid 30s with 4 turn consoles, low 30s with 3. the excelsior with an 8 base? basically cant get over 20.
1 or 2 points makes a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.
i can set my ktinga up to basically be an escort, only with EPtS3, DEM2+, EWP, tractor beam or repulsers, and still have decent heals to keep at least my self alive. or i can set it up exactly like i would set up a fed assault cruiser devoted entirely to healing and support, only it would have an 11 base turn rate and all the advantages that gives. same thing in a vorcha R. thats the problem. only full on support odyssey level of healing a kdf cruiser cant quite match. but thats all irreverent if a recluse is around
giveing fed cruisers 2 turn more would not take anything away from the kdf cruisers, DHC use is something that will still set them WAY apart. single cannon builds can be pretty damaging, but its nothing compared to the burst a fleet ktinga or fleet vorcha can pull off. even with fed cruisers geting +2, only the excelsior would match the vorcha, and its a TRIBBLE support ship, its for kirks. we would have star and assaults with 9, galaxys and odysseys with 8, it still wouldn't be better then the 10 and 11 you get on the kdf side. with no dhc's you cant out do kdf cruiser damage, the average fed cruiser is still more limited then the kdf cruiser!
nothing is taken away
nothing is made less valuable
nothing will effectively be able to replace anything else post change
there is little tangible advantage post change, its would just be much more pleasurable to fly them
fed cruisers would get slightly more kirk like options, single cannons would be more useable on them
for the life of me, i do not understand why anyone would argue against this.
for the life of me, i do not understand why anyone would argue against this.
Thanks for the turn rate numbers, nice to see people supporting their arguments with data. As for why argue against? -shrug- I see no logical reason. KDf cloaks, gets DC's and will still have higher base turn. They have a deficit in hull strength(3000 base or less about 2 seconds of concentrated fire after shields drop) and lose one sci/engineering console. Given the diminishing returns of engineering consoles and the lack of good sci consoles I see no reason to not like this.
Massive amounts of Klingon players fly there
Battleship with the 5.5 turn rate because it's so great
( silence )
When the turn rate is so low there is no way
To say with numbers how much it affects every
Aspect of the ships performance.
The galaxy R needs a turn rate of 9
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Excel is decent, but it actually has a lesser turn rate than the base (RALH) Negh'var.
Which also has a cloak, can use DHCs and has the same hull. IIRC it has the same shield mod, but that I'm not 100% sure on atm.
On top of this, the Excel is on its way to being yesterday's ship as fleets slowly unlock the higher tiers of fleet ships.
Yes, the Negh'var does have a better turn rate mod' , but if I remember correctly, it has a higher inertia as well (mass to overcome) I believe its a 30 (Excel) vs 40 (NegV) which actually gives the Excel a slight turning edge.
As far as it being :yesterdays ship" time will tell, you're probably right on that, but there are listing of "Fleet" vessels that haven't even come out yet that we don't know the stats.
The DHC's only do so much when a Lt. Tac Boff is firing them too. (I really wish they would do something more to make single cannons more appealing for cruisers and sci ships as well)
The cloak, thats been since day one, the best defense is teamwork and a Nebula (something most Fed groups are short of on both accounts )
The most notale thing regarding Klingon cruiser for me is that I rarely see them in PvP, it's mostly BOP, Garumba or Carriers.
a single point of base turn rate is a huge deal. everything that buffs turn rate is multiplied by that base. in a vorcha with 10 base, i can have a high 20s turn rate easily. in my ktinga with its 11 base, i can even get mid 30s with 4 turn consoles, low 30s with 3. the excelsior with an 8 base? basically cant get over 20.
With 4 mk xi blue rcs and only moderate increase to engine power (to maintain 125 weapons power and like 70 to shields), the most I could eek out of an Excel was 24.4, I could've done more tossing more power in engines.
Honestly though, a cruiser with a turn rate more than 20 isn't that much more effective than a cruiser with a turn rate of 18, especially considering all of the engineer powers that can boost maneuverability when needed. I can pretty much get everything I need in my 90-180's, give a fresh shield and save Starfleet a small fortune in barf bags for the crew.
Yes, the Negh'var does have a better turn rate mod' , but if I remember correctly, it has a higher inertia as well (mass to overcome) I believe its a 30 (Excel) vs 40 (NegV) which actually gives the Excel a slight turning edge.
As far as it being :yesterdays ship" time will tell, you're probably right on that, but there are listing of "Fleet" vessels that haven't even come out yet that we don't know the stats.
The DHC's only do so much when a Lt. Tac Boff is firing them too. (I really wish they would do something more to make single cannons more appealing for cruisers and sci ships as well)
The cloak, thats been since day one, the best defense is teamwork and a Nebula (something most Fed groups are short of on both accounts )
The most notale thing regarding Klingon cruiser for me is that I rarely see them in PvP, it's mostly BOP, Garumba or Carriers.
I occasionally see Vor'chas, and we'll start seeing Tor'kahts as more fleets get to tier 3. It's a good battlecruiser.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Even though the only difference between them is a 3 point turnrate difference and the ability to mount DHCs (which are useless without a good turnrate stat)
Aside from dontdrunk basically covering this completely.
Sorry, the arguement that an average 3 point difference in turnrate and the ability to mount DHCs makes the fed fleet Cruisers useless in comparison to the Fleet KDF Battle Cruisers is silly considering they are not designed to the same playstyle.
You either don't actually understand or are purposefully downplaying how large 3 point base turn is.
Not designed for the same playstyle?
You keep harping on this except its been shown, repeatedly, that several of the fleet KDF Battlecruisers can literally do everything Fed cruisers in addition to also being able to get near Escorts in damage dealing.
Different playstyle?
Fed Cruisers have 1 playstyle "Big fat heal boat turtle."
That's it, that's pretty much the only playstyle available to them.
They're frustrating and unfun to fly, and several of them are unable to maneuver well enough to bring different shield facings to bear in combat.
I find it ironic you don't think this is a problem, and yet you think Raptors need to be improved.
Well, I guess they're just designed for a different style of play than escorts are and that style of play is basically to be completely inferior.
How does that sit with you? Because that's exactly what you're saying.
Well the TRIBBLE base turn rate is one thing... but I do think that a few other points made here basically sum up what is going on.
1) Base turn rate boost of even as small an amount as 2 is massive, and they can give it to us without making the KDF lose it's edge, since they will still be higher even without a boost.
2) Beam arrays are too damn weak ever since the defense bonus given to ships after that one patch a while back. As a result, the pressure ability that cruisers used to have is gone. Now we just sit and look magnificent until we are blow to pieces by a passing escort.
3) (a point brought up a loooong while back in this thread) Weapons are universal. They really shouldn't be. Ships should not all be able to use the same weapons, and yet they can. There are just too many problems with that system.
4) What Federation ships sacrifice and KDF ships sacrifice are not even CLOSE to even for balance's sake. 3k more hp and another device slot. Ok, the device slot is useful (to a point), but 3k hp? That's 3 shots from one of my cruisers beam arrays (with some damage boosters on it), or ONE shot, I say again ONE shot from a DHC on my raptor. The KDF sacrifice that, but gain an almost universal +2 or +3 turn rate in addition to better weapon options. Now the DHC is null, since again, klingon ships are designed for combat, whereas most fed cruisers are refitted exploration ships (with the exception of the sovereign, regent, and dreadnaught classes).
5) Already pointed out, but there is NO WAY TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. No matter what happens, someone can still cry foul. It's part of the game. Get used to it (as much as it sickens me to say that, being a proud sovy pilot, and I'm an engi too XD).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
With 4 mk xi blue rcs and only moderate increase to engine power (to maintain 125 weapons power and like 70 to shields), the most I could eek out of an Excel was 24.4, I could've done more tossing more power in engines.
Honestly though, a cruiser with a turn rate more than 20 isn't that much more effective than a cruiser with a turn rate of 18, especially considering all of the engineer powers that can boost maneuverability when needed. I can pretty much get everything I need in my 90-180's, give a fresh shield and save Starfleet a small fortune in barf bags for the crew.
using more then 2 turn consoles is fairly build derailing, 4 to just get what my vorcha can have with 2 really illustrates my point. it turns less for no reason. the ship just has to turn enough for it to use single cannons reasonably well, 10 base with just 1 or 2 turn consoles would accomplish that well. the regent with a base of 9 would work ok too. 8 base is the absolute minimum for single cannon usefulness in pvp imo. it can be hard to even keep good broad side up time with less then 8 turn on a target at close range
There is no need for this. If you are having trouble turning you are not specced right.
I have no problem turning an assault cruiser fast enough to keep 180 degree single cannons on most targets. You need to max out impulse thrusters and engine performance skills and run at least 50 power to engines and turning will be great.
Yes KDF cruisers still turn better, but often at the expense of less hull, shields, or less sci consoles, the only KDF cruisers with 3 sci consoles are the Fleet Ktinga and the Corsair retro/Fleet corsair, all others have 1 or 2 while many Fed cruisers get 3 or 4 sci consoles making them better at tanking. Everything is balanced the way it is now.
There is no need for this. If you are having trouble turning you are not specced right.
I have no problem turning an assault cruiser fast enough to keep 180 degree single cannons on most targets. You need to max out impulse thrusters and engine performance skills and run at least 50 power to engines and turning will be great.
Yes KDF cruisers still turn better, but often at the expense of less hull, shields, or less sci consoles, the only KDF cruisers with 3 sci consoles are the Fleet Ktinga and the Corsair retro/Fleet corsair, all others have 1 or 2 while many Fed cruisers get 3 or 4 sci consoles making them better at tanking. Everything is balanced the way it is now.
why are you ok with fed cruisers having a huge built in disadvantage? because your used to it?
if your about to die, an extra 3k hull multiplied by your integrity skill will grant you about a single second of additional life. max hitpoint is not important, the rate at which you can heal is. max hitpoints only offers you an advantage against possible 1 shots
every benefit of science consoles goes down the drain if you cant protect a shield facing by being able to turn well between TTs.
Yes but combine this increase in hull with the the 4 Sci consoles of the Fleet Star cruiser or the sci oddy and you gain a tanking ability no KDF cruiser can match, it wouldn't be fair for them to have the same turn rate as KDF cruisers in addition to the better tanking. 4 sci consoles vs the 2 sci consoles on a Vorcha/Fleet Torkat or Negvar is a huge boost to shields KDF doesn't have.
I play both factions about equally as I have 3 level 50s in each faction and can look at it from both sides and it seems pretty fair as it is now.
The other option would be less than polite to say.
Aside from dontdrunk basically covering this completely.
It bears repeating.
3 points of base turn rate is huge, really huge.
You either don't actually understand or are purposefully downplaying how large 3 point base turn is.
Not designed for the same playstyle?
You keep harping on this except its been shown, repeatedly, that several of the fleet KDF Battlecruisers can literally do everything Fed cruisers in addition to also being able to get near Escorts in damage dealing.
Different playstyle?
Fed Cruisers have 1 playstyle "Big fat heal boat turtle."
That's it, that's pretty much the only playstyle available to them.
They're frustrating and unfun to fly, and several of them are unable to maneuver well enough to bring different shield facings to bear in combat.
I find it ironic you don't think this is a problem, and yet you think Raptors need to be improved.
Well, I guess they're just designed for a different style of play than escorts are and that style of play is basically to be completely inferior.
How does that sit with you? Because that's exactly what you're saying.
Actually I've been the one harping on playstyle and I went into detail as to why. This request would solve nothing. It would waste dev time and in the end still lead to more complaints from people who don't understand why they're not having fun. It's not turnrate. I've gone over the reasons a ton now. Feel free to read my previous posts.
(Side note to a previous poster the lower the inertia value the WORSE it is)
Please try and see the forest from the trees.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
How do you explain all the PvP'ers in Cruiser who can do exactly this^^. Attack, Defend against and destroy an enemy ship, be it NPC or Player, in combat?
@bitemepwe: Maybe this way, STO is a Star Trek game. Lol.
No seriously, i believe that some players may be able to do what you said, but i think the game shouldn't classify Cruisers as support/healboats in the first place.
My point is that their BOFF & Console layout should be allow them to act more flexible, so are able to do Serious damage on a regular basis, similar as escorts (but not that extreme).
Just look at the Galor Class, thats what i have in mind when thinking about a good BOFF & Console Layout for a fed Cruiser. (I'm sorry but sometimes i find it hard to get the right words to say what i mean. I'm no native english speaker .)
Yreodred, have you ever tried the Excelsior? Its a pretty powerful and maneuverable ship. I really think that this
would fix 99% of your grievances with cruisers (except that they all dont look like a Galaxy class).
Surely i tried that ship but i just can't stand it looks (to say it mildly).
Yes i also have tried the D'Kora, Galor and the new Regent. Those ships are great, i wish all Federation ships had similar BOFF & Console layouts. My issue is that i don't like them very much (in fact having the D'Kora, Excelsior and the Galor generating more Firepower than a Galaxy Class is a joke IMHO).
For me, the only satisfying Fed Cruiser is the Regent Class. Lots of Tac BOFF slots, a good amout of Engieering BOFF slots and even a Lt. universal BOFF slot. (I just wish it would look more like a Galaxy Class ).
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
"Broadside pressure DPS" again, this is laughable, I take my engineer in their Excelsior and put them up against an oddy (with a broadside of at least 6 beams) I run tac team and rotate shield frequencies and watch my shields regen faster than their broadside is damaging them.
"Broadside pressure DPS" there's no pressure in that, there's no need for me to go defensive as a result of this and I'm getting the full force of it because I can't move as fast as any escort/science ship in the game, these are going to miss escorts at least 50% of the time so why the hell would they feel any pressure if I don't?
I have to agree with Yreodred in that every ship should be able to operate sensibly alone and unaided, that means they have to capable of destroying an enemy ship WITHOUT an escort to 'help' them, as I stated earlier:
Sadly this is what has happened to the vast majority of fed cruisers, why should I fly a mere damage sponge as a result of choosing a cruiser, if I wanted a damage sponge i'd fly the oddy not an excelsior
R.I.P
So, if I were to agree to the increase in turn rate by 2 for every Federation Cruiser, than we must do something for the KDF Cruisers, because they have weaker shield modifiers and less hull! So I?d propose giving them an innate +5% all damage resistance to demonstrate that they have thicker and better built hulls for combat.
Also, while Federation Cruisers such as the Galaxy Class are larger than Klingon Cruisers, their overall mass is similar because the Klingons really pile on thick armor plating comparatively to the Federation who with their larger Warp Cores and redundant systems, relied more on technology and better shielding.
Hey bud.
The Excel is decent, but it actually has a lesser turn rate than the base (RALH) Negh'var.
Which also has a cloak, can use DHCs and has the same hull. IIRC it has the same shield mod, but that I'm not 100% sure on atm.
On top of this, the Excel is on its way to being yesterday's ship as fleets slowly unlock the higher tiers of fleet ships.
The major problem with the Raptor is the turn axis.
While it has a base turn of 15, the axis is towards the rear of the ship - due to the placement of the forward guns on the in game model it actually suffers a performance decrease with lower arc weapons (DC/DHC, the best weapons for a Raptor).
This is something that should have been corrected a long time ago and it's why I generally stick to the Guramba for Escort style play KDF side.
I think you forgot that they have the ability to equip, and actually use, DHCs and DCs - as well as have innate cloaks that don't require a console.
Here's what the fleet Cruisers & BCs look like side by side, and here is a review I did a while back on them.
It's not even close, KDF BCs are clearly and unequivocally superior to Fed Cruisers.
As dontdrunkimshoot once aptly said:
The fact Broadside pressure damage is underperforming has nothing to do w/turnrate perhaps you should read the rest of my post to find the reasons why instead of selectively taking things out of context.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
R.I.P
KDF BCs are better at doing damage by design. This doesn't mean KDF Cruisers can nor should do the roles Feds Cruisers can. A KDF cruiser is there to apply consistant high pressure damage to weaken targets for BoPs and Escorts to pick off. A KDF Cruiser isn't going to keep a KDF Raider in a fight like supporting a Tac Escort would in Fed Cruiser's case. Raiders are too weak. KDF Escorts don't have the fire power Feds have. A KDF cruiser doesn't have Fed Sci Ships consistantly debuffing targets as much as BoPs b/c BoPs have to run nor to KDF Sci ships come close to Fed Sci ship options. They're different playstyles and imo it's wrong for KDF Cruisers to try an emulate Fed Cruiser just as it's wrong for a BoP to try and emulate an Escort and Fed Cruisers to try and emulate KDF Cruisers.
Really why boost the turnrate? It does nothing to help the lacking broadside pressure damage. It takes away an existing playstyle.
On the other hand I agreed w/a previous poster that if there were a way to designate a Cruiser as a team "leader" to provide some sort of buff options for the team I'd be open to that. Particularly if it could be tailored by faction.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
knowing the borg and new fleet action NPCs this is most likely true especially considering I have only had this issue since season 6 went live
Sounds like an issue with the NPCs being made too tough to give a sense of challenge as oppossed to being design to play smarter to give a challenge.
R.I.P
Quit whining and crying. They are not the same, and should not be the same. 2 different classes entirely.
That's right, they are not the same, but they're not balanced either. That's why people are asking for the buff to turn rate, not cloaks, not DHC's, a turn rate buff.
You already GOT a cloak and DHC option. Dreadnaught, anyone?
Even though the only difference between them is a 3 point turnrate difference and the ability to mount DHCs (which are useless without a good turnrate stat)
Sorry, the arguement that an average 3 point difference in turnrate and the ability to mount DHCs makes the fed fleet Cruisers useless in comparison to the Fleet KDF Battle Cruisers is silly considering they are not designed to the same playstyle.
One is a multitask designed Cruiser meant to use its Engineering and Science abilities to augment its tactical limitations to win in a fight.
While the other is a limited Science using vessel designed to dish out damage while relying on its Engineering abilites to keep it alive.
Its Apples versus Oranges. Bioth are edible but they do not taste of work the same way.
Having a higher turn rate will not make the fed Cruiser better at combat. It will not do more damage all of a sudden becuase of such a change, unless it relies on the use of Engineering or Science abilities coupled with that higher turn rate.
Suddenly mounting DHCs on every fed cruiser makes no sense as we never saw the Feds use cannons on thier vessels before the introduction of the Escort. Not even the famed Dreadnought (the AGT galaxy) used cannons in the show.
Everything that DDIS mentioned is irrelevant as the two factors that made the difference where simply the better turnrate and DHCs. Any fed cruiser can use EWP, heal and use Science abilities.
SO fix boost Cruisers and Battle Cruiser equally in turnrate and focus on fixing beams to be more damaging in combat becuase to just up the Fed cruiser to be equal to the KDF Battle Cruiser is silly.
It destroys any reason for faction vessel differences, makes the reasons to try another faction just that much less, as vessel gameplay would not change or feel even different and turns the game vanilla becuase the only place said changes would have any value is PvP.
And as many have stated STO is not a PvP focused game so making these changes is a ego driven choice to make the player feel better about playing other players only, it will not make an already easy PvE experience any easier.
Yeah, just upping the Cruisers turnrate instead of upping both the Cruiser and battle Cruisers by the same amount is a veiled attempt to overcome some percieved weakness of the Cruiser in PvP. A weakness that I have never seen, as many players fly thier cruisers very well in PvP.
Making DHCs widespread on all fed cruisers would be exactly the same, ego driven to compensate for poor vessel design or use on part of the player.
R.I.P
Agreed, regarding DC/DHCs being useless without a proper turnrate stat. About the only KDF cruiser/battlecruiser that can actually use cannons properly is the Vor'cha/Tor'kaht/K'Tinga, and that's if you give 'em Aux to Dampeners, evasive Conn doffs, Pattern Omega, and stick 1-2 RCS consoles on 'em. It's a beast for DPS at that point, and probably outdoes the Raptors in tanking as well. But you're giving up a fair amount in exchange for that sort of tactical mobility.
Again, I'll say: If people want to fly a nimble cruiser, they should play KDF and get a Vor'cha/Tor'kaht, instead of just demanding/suggesting that Fed cruisers be given a higher turn rate.
1 or 2 points makes a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.
i can set my ktinga up to basically be an escort, only with EPtS3, DEM2+, EWP, tractor beam or repulsers, and still have decent heals to keep at least my self alive. or i can set it up exactly like i would set up a fed assault cruiser devoted entirely to healing and support, only it would have an 11 base turn rate and all the advantages that gives. same thing in a vorcha R. thats the problem. only full on support odyssey level of healing a kdf cruiser cant quite match. but thats all irreverent if a recluse is around
giveing fed cruisers 2 turn more would not take anything away from the kdf cruisers, DHC use is something that will still set them WAY apart. single cannon builds can be pretty damaging, but its nothing compared to the burst a fleet ktinga or fleet vorcha can pull off. even with fed cruisers geting +2, only the excelsior would match the vorcha, and its a TRIBBLE support ship, its for kirks. we would have star and assaults with 9, galaxys and odysseys with 8, it still wouldn't be better then the 10 and 11 you get on the kdf side. with no dhc's you cant out do kdf cruiser damage, the average fed cruiser is still more limited then the kdf cruiser!
nothing is taken away
nothing is made less valuable
nothing will effectively be able to replace anything else post change
there is little tangible advantage post change, its would just be much more pleasurable to fly them
fed cruisers would get slightly more kirk like options, single cannons would be more useable on them
for the life of me, i do not understand why anyone would argue against this.
Thanks for the turn rate numbers, nice to see people supporting their arguments with data. As for why argue against? -shrug- I see no logical reason. KDf cloaks, gets DC's and will still have higher base turn. They have a deficit in hull strength(3000 base or less about 2 seconds of concentrated fire after shields drop) and lose one sci/engineering console. Given the diminishing returns of engineering consoles and the lack of good sci consoles I see no reason to not like this.
Battleship with the 5.5 turn rate because it's so great
( silence )
When the turn rate is so low there is no way
To say with numbers how much it affects every
Aspect of the ships performance.
The galaxy R needs a turn rate of 9
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Yes, the Negh'var does have a better turn rate mod' , but if I remember correctly, it has a higher inertia as well (mass to overcome) I believe its a 30 (Excel) vs 40 (NegV) which actually gives the Excel a slight turning edge.
As far as it being :yesterdays ship" time will tell, you're probably right on that, but there are listing of "Fleet" vessels that haven't even come out yet that we don't know the stats.
The DHC's only do so much when a Lt. Tac Boff is firing them too. (I really wish they would do something more to make single cannons more appealing for cruisers and sci ships as well)
The cloak, thats been since day one, the best defense is teamwork and a Nebula (something most Fed groups are short of on both accounts
The most notale thing regarding Klingon cruiser for me is that I rarely see them in PvP, it's mostly BOP, Garumba or Carriers.
With 4 mk xi blue rcs and only moderate increase to engine power (to maintain 125 weapons power and like 70 to shields), the most I could eek out of an Excel was 24.4, I could've done more tossing more power in engines.
Honestly though, a cruiser with a turn rate more than 20 isn't that much more effective than a cruiser with a turn rate of 18, especially considering all of the engineer powers that can boost maneuverability when needed. I can pretty much get everything I need in my 90-180's, give a fresh shield and save Starfleet a small fortune in barf bags for the crew.
I occasionally see Vor'chas, and we'll start seeing Tor'kahts as more fleets get to tier 3. It's a good battlecruiser.
But nowhere to the extent that you will see Fed cruisers in PvP, am I correct?
You are kidding right?
The other option would be less than polite to say.
Aside from dontdrunk basically covering this completely.
It bears repeating.
You either don't actually understand or are purposefully downplaying how large 3 point base turn is.
Not designed for the same playstyle?
You keep harping on this except its been shown, repeatedly, that several of the fleet KDF Battlecruisers can literally do everything Fed cruisers in addition to also being able to get near Escorts in damage dealing.
Different playstyle?
Fed Cruisers have 1 playstyle "Big fat heal boat turtle."
That's it, that's pretty much the only playstyle available to them.
They're frustrating and unfun to fly, and several of them are unable to maneuver well enough to bring different shield facings to bear in combat.
I find it ironic you don't think this is a problem, and yet you think Raptors need to be improved.
Well, I guess they're just designed for a different style of play than escorts are and that style of play is basically to be completely inferior.
How does that sit with you? Because that's exactly what you're saying.
1) Base turn rate boost of even as small an amount as 2 is massive, and they can give it to us without making the KDF lose it's edge, since they will still be higher even without a boost.
2) Beam arrays are too damn weak ever since the defense bonus given to ships after that one patch a while back. As a result, the pressure ability that cruisers used to have is gone. Now we just sit and look magnificent until we are blow to pieces by a passing escort.
3) (a point brought up a loooong while back in this thread) Weapons are universal. They really shouldn't be. Ships should not all be able to use the same weapons, and yet they can. There are just too many problems with that system.
4) What Federation ships sacrifice and KDF ships sacrifice are not even CLOSE to even for balance's sake. 3k more hp and another device slot. Ok, the device slot is useful (to a point), but 3k hp? That's 3 shots from one of my cruisers beam arrays (with some damage boosters on it), or ONE shot, I say again ONE shot from a DHC on my raptor. The KDF sacrifice that, but gain an almost universal +2 or +3 turn rate in addition to better weapon options. Now the DHC is null, since again, klingon ships are designed for combat, whereas most fed cruisers are refitted exploration ships (with the exception of the sovereign, regent, and dreadnaught classes).
5) Already pointed out, but there is NO WAY TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. No matter what happens, someone can still cry foul. It's part of the game. Get used to it (as much as it sickens me to say that, being a proud sovy pilot, and I'm an engi too XD).
using more then 2 turn consoles is fairly build derailing, 4 to just get what my vorcha can have with 2 really illustrates my point. it turns less for no reason. the ship just has to turn enough for it to use single cannons reasonably well, 10 base with just 1 or 2 turn consoles would accomplish that well. the regent with a base of 9 would work ok too. 8 base is the absolute minimum for single cannon usefulness in pvp imo. it can be hard to even keep good broad side up time with less then 8 turn on a target at close range
I have no problem turning an assault cruiser fast enough to keep 180 degree single cannons on most targets. You need to max out impulse thrusters and engine performance skills and run at least 50 power to engines and turning will be great.
Yes KDF cruisers still turn better, but often at the expense of less hull, shields, or less sci consoles, the only KDF cruisers with 3 sci consoles are the Fleet Ktinga and the Corsair retro/Fleet corsair, all others have 1 or 2 while many Fed cruisers get 3 or 4 sci consoles making them better at tanking. Everything is balanced the way it is now.
why are you ok with fed cruisers having a huge built in disadvantage? because your used to it?
if your about to die, an extra 3k hull multiplied by your integrity skill will grant you about a single second of additional life. max hitpoint is not important, the rate at which you can heal is. max hitpoints only offers you an advantage against possible 1 shots
every benefit of science consoles goes down the drain if you cant protect a shield facing by being able to turn well between TTs.
I play both factions about equally as I have 3 level 50s in each faction and can look at it from both sides and it seems pretty fair as it is now.
Actually I've been the one harping on playstyle and I went into detail as to why. This request would solve nothing. It would waste dev time and in the end still lead to more complaints from people who don't understand why they're not having fun. It's not turnrate. I've gone over the reasons a ton now. Feel free to read my previous posts.
(Side note to a previous poster the lower the inertia value the WORSE it is)
Please try and see the forest from the trees.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
No seriously, i believe that some players may be able to do what you said, but i think the game shouldn't classify Cruisers as support/healboats in the first place.
My point is that their BOFF & Console layout should be allow them to act more flexible, so are able to do Serious damage on a regular basis, similar as escorts (but not that extreme).
Just look at the Galor Class, thats what i have in mind when thinking about a good BOFF & Console Layout for a fed Cruiser.
(I'm sorry but sometimes i find it hard to get the right words to say what i mean. I'm no native english speaker
Surely i tried that ship but i just can't stand it looks (to say it mildly).
Yes i also have tried the D'Kora, Galor and the new Regent. Those ships are great, i wish all Federation ships had similar BOFF & Console layouts. My issue is that i don't like them very much (in fact having the D'Kora, Excelsior and the Galor generating more Firepower than a Galaxy Class is a joke IMHO).
For me, the only satisfying Fed Cruiser is the Regent Class. Lots of Tac BOFF slots, a good amout of Engieering BOFF slots and even a Lt. universal BOFF slot.
(I just wish it would look more like a Galaxy Class
Live long and prosper.