HMM, well I've been thinking about this.
And maybe it would make more sense to give both sides differnt flavours of cruiser:
large cruisers that can tank much (Galaxy/Star Cruiser/Negh'varMarauder)
medium cruisers that tank less and maneuver more (Sovereign/Vor'cha)
and small cruisers that can tank even less but actually turn really well (Excelsior/K't'inga).
Right now it seems rather arbitrary which ships have which turnrate and why, at least on the Fed side.
This would be the preferable solution and the one I expect the STO-Devs to embrace given past history. I don't see a point in restricting players to one faction or another just to be optimal at a certain style of play.
at the end of the day these ships are just a collection of stats, it doesn't mater what they look like, they should all be on equal terms, giving up 1 thing for an advantage in another. the bortas and the orian ships would get the same buff i would give to fed cruiser turn rate, they are stat clones of fed ships after all.
to say fed cruisers can tank better is an illusion, not counting how much better maco shield is then KHG shield. the ships both have the same access to abilities, only the kdf ships can use higher damage, low arc weapons easier, turn to protect damaged shield facings better, and get turned around and fly toward someone that needs heals more easily. they give up 1 device slot and maybe a tiny amount of hull for this, wile also getting a cloak. the fed ships simply cant do any of that with their TRIBBLE turn rate, and they get to slot an extra battery to make up for it.
the kdf raptors and bops being inadequate is another issue, id like to see it addressed as much as i would like fed cruisers stop being a turn rate anomaly in this game.
at the end of the day these ships are just a collection of stats, it doesn't mater what they look like, they should all be on equal terms, giving up 1 thing for an advantage in another. the bortas and the orian ships would get the same buff i would give to fed cruiser turn rate, they are stat clones of fed ships after all.
to say fed cruisers can tank better is an illusion, not counting how much better maco shield is then KHG shield. the ships both have the same access to abilities, only the kdf ships can use higher damage, low arc weapons easier, turn to protect damaged shield facings better, and get turned around and fly toward someone that needs heals more easily. they give up 1 device slot and maybe a tiny amount of hull for this, wile also getting a cloak. the fed ships simply cant do any of that with their TRIBBLE turn rate, and they get to slot an extra battery to make up for it.
the kdf raptors and bops being inadequate is another issue, id like to see it addressed as much as i would like fed cruisers stop being a turn rate anomaly in this game.
Very true, i couldn't say it better.
I think the main problem is that the devs estimate some powers just in the wrong way.
For example, a higher turn rate is much more valuable than a ship device slot.
As you said, being able to use much more powerful weapons (DHCs) is much more valuable than 5 or 10 percent more hull. In a game where you can heal 50 percent of your hull in seconds a difference of 5 or 10 percent more or less hull means nothing.
Live long and prosper.
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- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
The turnrates are fine for pressure dps broadside beamboat w/repair support roles. The problem is since Season 5 the defensive boosts in terms of Doffs, Stats, STF, skill buffs (RSP) and other gear has boosted defense to the point that the beam broadside dps isn't nearly as effective as it once was and the need for x-repairs has diminished compared to what it used to be.
So, now people want to use cruisers as the KDF BCs to feel like they're contributing rather than creating an environment to make the broadside beamboats usefull again. The influx of Lotto ships, Z-store ships, and Fleet ships w/o balance considerations hasn't helped any either.
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So, the real elephant in the room isn't even turn rates. It's that beams are severely underwhelming compared to cannons. This is why anytime you see a beam-wielding escort in your STF, you groan. Solution: Nudge beams up a bit to make them more competitive against cannons.
So, the real elephant in the room isn't even turn rates. It's that beams are severely underwhelming compared to cannons. This is why anytime you see a beam-wielding escort in your STF, you groan. Solution: Nudge beams up a bit to make them more competitive against cannons.
That would affect everyone using beams.
That would include Beam Escorts, Sci Ships etc.
The Solution that would IMO make more sense would be to properly reflect what Roach said about Feds having larger power reserves on their giant cruisers:
Give the Fed cruisers more bonus power overall.
Mainly that the federation/ Star Fleet has better Warp technology and shield technology and the Klingons/KDF has more hull and better impulse technology. The better impulse technology being why thier vessels turn better for the most part.
Most Fed ships don't have better warp or shield technology, and better warp technology is also completely irrelevant in a game that favors combat over everything.
No. There are a whole host of other factors -- number of crew, bridge officer, console, and device slots (all Fed T5 cruisers have 4 devices, all KDF T5 battle cruisers have 3 devices except for the Bortas/Bortasqu') all make a difference.
1) Crew is irrelevant.
2) 1 Device slot is inferior to the Higher Turn rate, DHCs and Cloaking ability of the KDF BCs.
3) There is no disparity in consoles, at least I can't think of any of the top of my head with regards to Cruisers vs. KDF BCs.
at the end of the day these ships are just a collection of stats, it doesn't mater what they look like, they should all be on equal terms, giving up 1 thing for an advantage in another. the bortas and the orian ships would get the same buff i would give to fed cruiser turn rate, they are stat clones of fed ships after all.
to say fed cruisers can tank better is an illusion, not counting how much better maco shield is then KHG shield. the ships both have the same access to abilities, only the kdf ships can use higher damage, low arc weapons easier, turn to protect damaged shield facings better, and get turned around and fly toward someone that needs heals more easily. they give up 1 device slot and maybe a tiny amount of hull for this, wile also getting a cloak. the fed ships simply cant do any of that with their TRIBBLE turn rate, and they get to slot an extra battery to make up for it.
the kdf raptors and bops being inadequate is another issue, id like to see it addressed as much as i would like fed cruisers stop being a turn rate anomaly in this game.
I could not agree more or convey it any better myself.
That would affect everyone using beams.
That would include Beam Escorts, Sci Ships etc.
That's the point, Beams themselves are very underpowered, 1 DHC does 4 times the damage of 1 beam array (2x damage per hit and 2x firing rate, I looked this up ingame) so the guy is right beams need a damage boost
As for this... well this is laughable, I can throw the weapon power on my cruiser off the scale, it still doesn't help me get beyond 1700 damage per hit.
Cruisers don't need more energy, beams need more damage
That's the point, Beams themselves are very underpowered, 1 DHC does 4 times the damage of 1 beam array (2x damage per hit and 2x firing rate, I looked this up ingame) so the guy is right beams need a damage boost
As for this... well this is laughable, I can throw the weapon power on my cruiser off the scale, it still doesn't help me get beyond 1700 damage per hit.
Cruisers don't need more energy, beams need more damage
Don't forget the Devs need to STOP NERFING POWERS every 30 days. It kills the game for a casual player or for someone who only plays 1-2 hours per night. Does anyone else find it freakin' maddening to have to constantly swap out your powers or skills in PvP all the time and even more so for PvE? It's crazy. I know the Devs don't want the "perfect build" being able to be created, but with them constantly TRIBBLE with stuff, I've found I particuarly don't care about my build any longer. I used to spend lots of $$$ on Lobi stuff looking for a slight edge...but why bother? In fact, what chance do I stand playing a few hours per night, against someone who logs in 7-8+ hours per day? It's not even close, nor is it worth PvP anymore.
Weapon power, ship turning and LESS nerfing I would say are my 3 biggest beefs with the game at this time.
The turnrates are fine for pressure dps broadside beamboat w/repair support roles. The problem is since Season 5 the defensive boosts in terms of Doffs, Stats, STF, skill buffs (RSP) and other gear has boosted defense to the point that the beam broadside dps isn't nearly as effective as it once was and the need for x-repairs has diminished compared to what it used to be.
So, now people want to use cruisers as the KDF BCs to feel like they're contributing rather than creating an environment to make the broadside beamboats usefull again. The influx of Lotto ships, Z-store ships, and Fleet ships w/o balance considerations hasn't helped any either.
I never saw Federation Cruisers a Healboats (in a canon sense).
You are right, Beam Arrays should be stronger, as they are now you can't even scratch someones hull.
To be honest, i wouldn't even notice if my crusier (fed) would have one less device slot.
They are far less useful than a Tac console slot, a higher turn rate or even more ship power in general.
But i am also in favour to give Cruisers a similar turnrate as Science ships. Not because they could do their job better, but it is just boring to fly a ship that needs 45 seconds for a 360 degrees turn.
It is just not fun to fly a unmaneuverable slow ship with no firepower that serves only as target practice for enemy escorts.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
No. Fed cruisers are just fine, assuming you know how to use the darn things. They aren't supposed to be nimble.
If you really want a nimble cruiser, just get some evasive maneuver Conn doffs, stock up with Aux2Dampeners and other mobility-boosters (including engine batteries), and get Pattern Omega if your cruiser of choice has a LTC tac slot.
You want an innately nimble cruiser, join KDF and fly a Vor'cha (or the fleet Tor'kaht).
I'm looking at this game as a whole in terms of balance. Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship. This is also a request, rather than a topic of debate.
Ships should be fun to fly as another person stated, granted cruiser are meant for tanking. However, that does not mean turning ships like the Galaxy into an elephant
on ice.
Ruling out the Federation faction because their cruisers have been given low turn rates is unacceptable, and it is a poor way of balancing between their respective KDF counterparts.
Lets also consider most KDF ships get to use cannons. The higher turn rate in combination with cannons makes them more effective in PVP and PVE, and they can cloak.
I can go on and on about how KDF ships are better, but I'm just going to keep it simple and give all Federation cruisers a bit more turn rate. I think I agree with dotkimdontshoot and say give all Fed cruisers +2 turn rate. That does away with fussing about other mechanics.
Don't forget the Devs need to STOP NERFING POWERS every 30 days. It kills the game for a casual player or for someone who only plays 1-2 hours per night. Does anyone else find it freakin' maddening to have to constantly swap out your powers or skills in PvP all the time and even more so for PvE? It's crazy.
This is true, if they were to reset the combat system to the way it was going into F2P all the balance issues would be fixed (with the turn rate exception but I fly an excelsior so I barely notice it) also if you want a fair build you can settle on I can give you mine,,, until they nerf cruisers/buff escorts yet again it will hold it's own in 1 on 1 and can tank fairly well in PvE (though don't try it on with a tac cube... I promise you will go boom), I fly circles round most cruisers and beat the oddy and regent on every occation I have fought them (i even managed it with a grade 41 tac with nothing better than Mk VIII stuff on the ship) also as it doesn't rely on any 'powerful skills' I doubt they will be nerfed and thus it holds a stronger position than some of the 'better' builds.
Ships should be fun to fly as another person stated, granted cruiser are meant for tanking. However, that does not mean turning ships like the Galaxy into an elephant on ice.
also I think your elephant on ice would turn faster than the ingame Galaxy class...
I'm looking at this game as a whole in terms of balance. Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship. This is also a request, rather than a topic of debate.
Ships should be fun to fly as another person stated, granted cruiser are meant for tanking. However, that does not mean turning ships like the Galaxy into an elephant
on ice.
Ruling out the Federation faction because their cruisers have been given low turn rates is unacceptable, and it is a poor way of balancing between their respective KDF counterparts.
That's a bit of a strawman as there are many good turnrate Fed Escorts and Sci ships. Even the Ods can boost it's turnrate w/saucer sep (the issue then becomes inertia rating). This doesn't even count the Galor nor Ferengi Cruiser lotto ships. If you really want to make the slow boats turn better you're going to have to do like the others have mentioned and use things like Aux2damp, Omega Shields, APO on the few that have the option, evasives w/doffs, deut device, etc.
I prefer to fly nimble ships myself, but that doesn't mean I think slow broadside ships shouldn't exist. It just so happens Feds have more of those than KDF. It'd be like me complaining about KDF not having a nimble Sci ship (and no the BoP isn't even close to a Sci ship).
Fyi, crew does matter for Tac Team effectiveness and subsystem repairs.
KDF BCs don't have the tank capability b/c they're designed to be used more offensively, cannons work w/Dem better which means less Boff slot(s) for repair abilities. This means doubling down on things like RSP or EPTS3 which means less team repair abilities. They're not even close to the same roles Fed Cruisers are intended for.
If you want a better turnrate and some Eng options use the Z-Store Carrier Escort.
Edit: To respond to poster's edit
KDF Raiders, Sci Ships, Cross Repair Cruisers, Escort options are and have been for a long time worse than Fed options. The KDF carriers are better at pressure DPS and using OP pets. KDF BCs are better at applying pressure dps and in the Fleet Tor'Kaht's case better than most KDF options for even Escorts. So, no KDF ships aren't better.
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I never saw Federation Cruisers a Healboats (in a canon sense).
You are right, Beam Arrays should be stronger, as they are now you can't even scratch someones hull.
To be honest, i wouldn't even notice if my crusier (fed) would have one less device slot.
They are far less useful than a Tac console slot, a higher turn rate or even more ship power in general.
But i am also in favour to give Cruisers a similar turnrate as Science ships. Not because they could do their job better, but it is just boring to fly a ship that needs 45 seconds for a 360 degrees turn.
It is just not fun to fly a unmaneuverable slow ship with no firepower that serves only as target practice for enemy escorts.
Live long and prosper.
What role do you see the Fed Cruisers having if not the pressure DPS w/cross repair support?
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I prefer to fly nimble ships myself, but that doesn't mean I think slow broadside ships shouldn't exist. It just so happens Feds have more of those than KDF
The problem with longer fed ships isn't the turn rate, I can hold a target in my broadside easily without RCS consoles the problem with "Slow broadside ships" is their broadside is worthless, if I get caught in a broadside the only thing I notice is the pretty show of lights, the damage is non-existent 200 per hit unbuffed... big deal... use rotate shield frequencies, suddenly your shield regen faster that the broadside is damaging them.
due to the point above, why use a broadside, 1 ability makes it utterly worthless and before anyone says anything NO THEY SHOULD NERF THE ABILITY!
The problem with longer fed ships isn't the turn rate, I can hold a target in my broadside easily without RCS consoles the problem with "Slow broadside ships" is their broadside is worthless, if I get caught in a broadside the only thing I notice is the pretty show of lights, the damage is non-existent 200 per hit unbuffed... big deal... use rotate shield frequencies, suddenly your shield regen faster that the broadside is damaging them.
due to the point above, why use a broadside, 1 ability makes it utterly worthless and before anyone says anything NO THEY SHOULD NERF THE ABILITY!
Please see my 1st post in this thread #35.
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fair enough, I mentioned another major cause of the imbalance, see my first post on the subject: # 10 (got completely ignored)
Regarding the PvE aspect, the Fleet missions are better designed for multiroles rather than raw dps. Protecting transports and No Win Scenario especially. I think more missions like those would continue to make the broadsiding/repairing role viable in PvE.
For PvP in good fights Extend Shields is still needed (though not as much) and we're agreed on the lacking broadside damage. To me though I'd boost all weapons damage (ie MK XIV) and Sci abilities which would help offset all the defensive boosts since Season 5. I'm not sure where the current "cap" for weapons power is, but I'd have cruiser have say 150 so they're always at a consistant rate if they'd like. Escorts would have the normal cap to better fit their spike design.
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What role do you see the Fed Cruisers having if not the pressure DPS w/cross repair support?
I said i don't see them as healboats.
They should be good in pressure DPS as you call it, in general Battlefield control, but mostly the should shine as multirole ships that can take care of themselves when there is no other ship as support.
I just refuse to see the Galaxy Class/Sovereign or even the Nebula as a ship that maily sends repair teams to defiant like ships, while those are fighting an enemiy.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
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I wouldn't as I mention earlier 1 DHC already does 4x the damage per hit (which means even more DPS) of 1 beam array I already say that's more than enough damage for 1 ship. I take my escort into a 20 fleet defence and have no trouble killing stuff solo (except the siege cruisers at the end) yet my cruiser (running tetryon for added shield stripping) spends 10 minutes bouncing fire off a standard cruisers shields having... wait for it... ZERO effect while this this erodes away at my shields using TWO beams to my SIX that say's EVERYTHING
I said i don't see them as healboats.
They should be good in pressure DPS as you call it, in general Battlefield control, but mostly the should shine as multirole ships that can take care of themselves when there is no other ship as support.
I just refuse to see the Galaxy Class/Sovereign or even the Nebula as a ship that maily sends repair teams to defiant like ships, while those are fighting an enemiy.
Live long and prosper.
Thanks, this is the point I've been making for ages... look at the dominion war for example, they had a group of escorts... had a small fleet of the things yet they were out-classed AND out-gunned by a 200 yes two hundred year old cruiser...
would you escort fanatics like to explain therefore why my cruiser should either: be unable to destroy anything on it's own OR have the damage capacity to do that and have no ability to survive and thus be unable to destroy anything at all?
I wouldn't as I mention earlier 1 DHC already does 4x the damage per hit (which means even more DPS) of 1 beam array I already say that's more than enough damage for 1 ship. I take my escort into a 20 fleet defence and have no trouble killing stuff solo (except the siege cruisers at the end) yet my cruiser (running tetryon for added shield stripping) spends 10 minutes bouncing fire off a standard cruisers shields having... wait for it... ZERO effect while this this erodes away at my shields using TWO beams to my SIX that say's EVERYTHING
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you read the Cruiser build threads in the PvP forums? They may help your DPS output. I don't think you should have the trouble you're having w/PvE NPCs.
There's 2 threads 2.0 and 3.0, the OP of them does a very good job detailing strength weaknesses and builds.
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I said i don't see them as healboats.
They should be good in pressure DPS as you call it, in general Battlefield control, but mostly the should shine as multirole ships that can take care of themselves when there is no other ship as support.
I just refuse to see the Galaxy Class/Sovereign or even the Nebula as a ship that maily sends repair teams to defiant like ships, while those are fighting an enemiy.
Live long and prosper.
I guess I was looking for a more detailed reply. For example, by Battlefield control would you like passive "leadership" type boosts to allies in the zone, eg similar to EvE Commader ships?
Keep in mind I recall various occassions Captains sending repair teams and Extending shields as far as IP consistancy is concerned regarding the repair support role.
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you read the Cruiser build threads in the PvP forums? They may help your DPS output. I don't think you should have the trouble you're having w/PvE NPCs.
As a matter of fact I have had a look at those and I tried out the dual EPtX powers and found it didn't work for me, I found I could get an EPtS when I REALLY needed one or I couldn't get EPtW when I REALLY needed it.
I also put a tactical in the same ship (Boff skills, relevant DOFFs, same equipment standard, same power levels, I originally built the toon for that ship before I put them in an escort, etc, etc) and had the same DPS problem my engineer has so I think I've hit the combined limit of the ship and beams and it SUCKS
As a matter of fact I have had a look at those and I tried out the dual EPtX powers and found it didn't work for me, I found I could get an EPtS when I REALLY needed one or I couldn't get EPtW when I REALLY needed it.
Say what? You mean you COULDN'T get it when you really needed one? How's that work? Those builds are designed to have both of those powers running constantly. You bind those powers to a button, flip fire select to full auto, and then tape the button down. Are you being subnuc'ed or something?
I fly the Science Bortasqu' (as I mentioned earlier), which has a lower turn rate than the Odyssey, has a cloak (which is only 80% as effective) and can equip DHC's. Equipping DHC's on it is a ridiculous idea because you'll never get to use them most of the time, so the option is either Beams or Turrets, preferrably Beams because they do more damage.
I can tell you, I do enough damage as it is in the Bortasqu' as it is with 7 Beams and 1 DH Beam. I have a Boff layout identical to a Star Cruiser (with the exception of a Beam Overload 2 instead of APD1) to help exploit the tankiness of it and use the Battle side of it in the weapons, and I fly it in an Engineer and tear things apart. Discounting the Autocannon (special console which actually I don't use half the time), as soon as I broadside another players ship, I can tell they are taking damage because of the sheer power of the ship I am flying.
The Science Bortasqu' has +10 Weapons and +10 Shields. The +10 Weapons is matched byt he Regent and the Tac Odyssey, so both are capable of doing the same (especially the Odyssey, which can be setup almost identically). Of course the difference is the the 4 Tactical Console compared to the 3 of the Tact Odyssey, but 1 console less doesn't make as much of a difference with Beams compared to DHC's, meaning it could be considered effectively null.
In either case, assuming I set up my Odyssey identically to my Bortasqu' with Disruptor Beams etc., I can asure you that I would do damage on a similar level to it (slightly less due to a loss of only 1 Tac console).
My point is, it really is a matter of setting your ship up. The Bortasqu' is just a beefed up Fed Cruiser on the Klingon side if you look at it, so Fed ships have no real reason to say they can't do damage, its just the setup of the ship that matters.
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As a matter of fact I have had a look at those and I tried out the dual EPtX powers and found it didn't work for me, I found I could get an EPtS when I REALLY needed one or I couldn't get EPtW when I REALLY needed it.
I also put a tactical in the same ship (Boff skills, relevant DOFFs, same equipment standard, same power levels, I originally built the toon for that ship before I put them in an escort, etc, etc) and had the same DPS problem my engineer has so I think I've hit the combined limit of the ship and beams and it SUCKS
Something seems off, I'd like to not derail this thread. So, I'll just offer a few suggestions (keep in mind it's been a very long time since I flew a Fed cruiser).
For PvE use APB (or APD) and FAW broadside w/Tet glider and DEM3. Even though DEM doesn't work so well w/Beams it's still xtra damage and really manual shield distrobution or binding shield distrobution w/keep bind should keep you alive w/a couple of hull/shield rep boffs.
Fit a TB, it'll drop the main targets defense getting more hits and better quality hits.
Use EWP damage is nice, movement (defense) debuff is better.
Use Polaron or Phasers.
Invest Skill Points in flow caps and use flow cap consoles/deflector. This boosts Tet glider proc and polaron drain if you use it. Another option for Tet glider is to use 2 part jem set for xtra polaron damage boosts (basically the same as having an xtra Tac Console iirc).
Don't use ACC for PvE, Crit Hit and Crit Damage are better since NPCs don't have high defensive ratings and w/movement debuffs (TB EWP) you should have quality hits anyway. Last I heard FaW was broken and not taking ACC attributes into count anyway.
Use Aux2Batt w/Tech doffs to reduce DEM EWP etc cooldowns.
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I guess I was looking for a more detailed reply. For example, by Battlefield control would you like passive "leadership" type boosts to allies in the zone, eg similar to EvE Commader ships?
Keep in mind I recall various occassions Captains sending repair teams and Extending shields as far as IP consistancy is concerned regarding the repair support role.
I am sorry, here is what i was talking about.
I had something similar like the "Leadership" skill in mind. Especially ships like the Galaxy class where used as command ships, meaning they coordinated other ships maneuuvers and weapons fire. Maybe we could have something like this in STO. A passive skill that improves surrounding allied ships weaphon accuracy or improve their maneuverability slightly.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
This would be the preferable solution and the one I expect the STO-Devs to embrace given past history. I don't see a point in restricting players to one faction or another just to be optimal at a certain style of play.
to say fed cruisers can tank better is an illusion, not counting how much better maco shield is then KHG shield. the ships both have the same access to abilities, only the kdf ships can use higher damage, low arc weapons easier, turn to protect damaged shield facings better, and get turned around and fly toward someone that needs heals more easily. they give up 1 device slot and maybe a tiny amount of hull for this, wile also getting a cloak. the fed ships simply cant do any of that with their TRIBBLE turn rate, and they get to slot an extra battery to make up for it.
the kdf raptors and bops being inadequate is another issue, id like to see it addressed as much as i would like fed cruisers stop being a turn rate anomaly in this game.
I think the main problem is that the devs estimate some powers just in the wrong way.
For example, a higher turn rate is much more valuable than a ship device slot.
As you said, being able to use much more powerful weapons (DHCs) is much more valuable than 5 or 10 percent more hull. In a game where you can heal 50 percent of your hull in seconds a difference of 5 or 10 percent more or less hull means nothing.
Live long and prosper.
So, now people want to use cruisers as the KDF BCs to feel like they're contributing rather than creating an environment to make the broadside beamboats usefull again. The influx of Lotto ships, Z-store ships, and Fleet ships w/o balance considerations hasn't helped any either.
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THANK YOU!
Now if only the devs would do something about this and one of the games MAJOR issues would be sorted
That would affect everyone using beams.
That would include Beam Escorts, Sci Ships etc.
The Solution that would IMO make more sense would be to properly reflect what Roach said about Feds having larger power reserves on their giant cruisers:
Give the Fed cruisers more bonus power overall.
Is this the one-way street where canon is used to justify a really terrible mechanic when the rest of the game tosses cannon out the window?
Like the KDF having dedicated Sci ships?
Somethings need to be in a game for simple quality of life and mechanical balance.
Most Fed ships don't have better warp or shield technology, and better warp technology is also completely irrelevant in a game that favors combat over everything.
It means KDF Cruisers are better, which they are.
The Raptors are inferior to Fed Escorts, on the flip side. (Although the Destroyers are generally very good).
1) Crew is irrelevant.
2) 1 Device slot is inferior to the Higher Turn rate, DHCs and Cloaking ability of the KDF BCs.
3) There is no disparity in consoles, at least I can't think of any of the top of my head with regards to Cruisers vs. KDF BCs.
I could not agree more or convey it any better myself.
That's the point, Beams themselves are very underpowered, 1 DHC does 4 times the damage of 1 beam array (2x damage per hit and 2x firing rate, I looked this up ingame) so the guy is right beams need a damage boost
As for this... well this is laughable, I can throw the weapon power on my cruiser off the scale, it still doesn't help me get beyond 1700 damage per hit.
Cruisers don't need more energy, beams need more damage
Don't forget the Devs need to STOP NERFING POWERS every 30 days. It kills the game for a casual player or for someone who only plays 1-2 hours per night. Does anyone else find it freakin' maddening to have to constantly swap out your powers or skills in PvP all the time and even more so for PvE? It's crazy. I know the Devs don't want the "perfect build" being able to be created, but with them constantly TRIBBLE with stuff, I've found I particuarly don't care about my build any longer. I used to spend lots of $$$ on Lobi stuff looking for a slight edge...but why bother? In fact, what chance do I stand playing a few hours per night, against someone who logs in 7-8+ hours per day? It's not even close, nor is it worth PvP anymore.
Weapon power, ship turning and LESS nerfing I would say are my 3 biggest beefs with the game at this time.
I never saw Federation Cruisers a Healboats (in a canon sense).
You are right, Beam Arrays should be stronger, as they are now you can't even scratch someones hull.
To be honest, i wouldn't even notice if my crusier (fed) would have one less device slot.
They are far less useful than a Tac console slot, a higher turn rate or even more ship power in general.
But i am also in favour to give Cruisers a similar turnrate as Science ships. Not because they could do their job better, but it is just boring to fly a ship that needs 45 seconds for a 360 degrees turn.
It is just not fun to fly a unmaneuverable slow ship with no firepower that serves only as target practice for enemy escorts.
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I'm looking at this game as a whole in terms of balance. Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship. This is also a request, rather than a topic of debate.
Ships should be fun to fly as another person stated, granted cruiser are meant for tanking. However, that does not mean turning ships like the Galaxy into an elephant
on ice.
Ruling out the Federation faction because their cruisers have been given low turn rates is unacceptable, and it is a poor way of balancing between their respective KDF counterparts.
Lets also consider most KDF ships get to use cannons. The higher turn rate in combination with cannons makes them more effective in PVP and PVE, and they can cloak.
I can go on and on about how KDF ships are better, but I'm just going to keep it simple and give all Federation cruisers a bit more turn rate. I think I agree with dotkimdontshoot and say give all Fed cruisers +2 turn rate. That does away with fussing about other mechanics.
This is true, if they were to reset the combat system to the way it was going into F2P all the balance issues would be fixed (with the turn rate exception but I fly an excelsior so I barely notice it) also if you want a fair build you can settle on I can give you mine,,, until they nerf cruisers/buff escorts yet again it will hold it's own in 1 on 1 and can tank fairly well in PvE (though don't try it on with a tac cube... I promise you will go boom), I fly circles round most cruisers and beat the oddy and regent on every occation I have fought them (i even managed it with a grade 41 tac with nothing better than Mk VIII stuff on the ship) also as it doesn't rely on any 'powerful skills' I doubt they will be nerfed and thus it holds a stronger position than some of the 'better' builds.
also I think your elephant on ice would turn faster than the ingame Galaxy class...
That's a bit of a strawman as there are many good turnrate Fed Escorts and Sci ships. Even the Ods can boost it's turnrate w/saucer sep (the issue then becomes inertia rating). This doesn't even count the Galor nor Ferengi Cruiser lotto ships. If you really want to make the slow boats turn better you're going to have to do like the others have mentioned and use things like Aux2damp, Omega Shields, APO on the few that have the option, evasives w/doffs, deut device, etc.
I prefer to fly nimble ships myself, but that doesn't mean I think slow broadside ships shouldn't exist. It just so happens Feds have more of those than KDF. It'd be like me complaining about KDF not having a nimble Sci ship (and no the BoP isn't even close to a Sci ship).
Fyi, crew does matter for Tac Team effectiveness and subsystem repairs.
KDF BCs don't have the tank capability b/c they're designed to be used more offensively, cannons work w/Dem better which means less Boff slot(s) for repair abilities. This means doubling down on things like RSP or EPTS3 which means less team repair abilities. They're not even close to the same roles Fed Cruisers are intended for.
If you want a better turnrate and some Eng options use the Z-Store Carrier Escort.
Edit: To respond to poster's edit
KDF Raiders, Sci Ships, Cross Repair Cruisers, Escort options are and have been for a long time worse than Fed options. The KDF carriers are better at pressure DPS and using OP pets. KDF BCs are better at applying pressure dps and in the Fleet Tor'Kaht's case better than most KDF options for even Escorts. So, no KDF ships aren't better.
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What role do you see the Fed Cruisers having if not the pressure DPS w/cross repair support?
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The problem with longer fed ships isn't the turn rate, I can hold a target in my broadside easily without RCS consoles the problem with "Slow broadside ships" is their broadside is worthless, if I get caught in a broadside the only thing I notice is the pretty show of lights, the damage is non-existent 200 per hit unbuffed... big deal... use rotate shield frequencies, suddenly your shield regen faster that the broadside is damaging them.
due to the point above, why use a broadside, 1 ability makes it utterly worthless and before anyone says anything NO THEY SHOULD NERF THE ABILITY!
Please see my 1st post in this thread #35.
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fair enough, I mentioned another major cause of the imbalance, see my first post on the subject: # 10 (got completely ignored)
Regarding the PvE aspect, the Fleet missions are better designed for multiroles rather than raw dps. Protecting transports and No Win Scenario especially. I think more missions like those would continue to make the broadsiding/repairing role viable in PvE.
For PvP in good fights Extend Shields is still needed (though not as much) and we're agreed on the lacking broadside damage. To me though I'd boost all weapons damage (ie MK XIV) and Sci abilities which would help offset all the defensive boosts since Season 5. I'm not sure where the current "cap" for weapons power is, but I'd have cruiser have say 150 so they're always at a consistant rate if they'd like. Escorts would have the normal cap to better fit their spike design.
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I said i don't see them as healboats.
They should be good in pressure DPS as you call it, in general Battlefield control, but mostly the should shine as multirole ships that can take care of themselves when there is no other ship as support.
I just refuse to see the Galaxy Class/Sovereign or even the Nebula as a ship that maily sends repair teams to defiant like ships, while those are fighting an enemiy.
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I wouldn't as I mention earlier 1 DHC already does 4x the damage per hit (which means even more DPS) of 1 beam array I already say that's more than enough damage for 1 ship. I take my escort into a 20 fleet defence and have no trouble killing stuff solo (except the siege cruisers at the end) yet my cruiser (running tetryon for added shield stripping) spends 10 minutes bouncing fire off a standard cruisers shields having... wait for it... ZERO effect while this this erodes away at my shields using TWO beams to my SIX that say's EVERYTHING
Thanks, this is the point I've been making for ages... look at the dominion war for example, they had a group of escorts... had a small fleet of the things yet they were out-classed AND out-gunned by a 200 yes two hundred year old cruiser...
would you escort fanatics like to explain therefore why my cruiser should either: be unable to destroy anything on it's own OR have the damage capacity to do that and have no ability to survive and thus be unable to destroy anything at all?
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you read the Cruiser build threads in the PvP forums? They may help your DPS output. I don't think you should have the trouble you're having w/PvE NPCs.
There's 2 threads 2.0 and 3.0, the OP of them does a very good job detailing strength weaknesses and builds.
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I guess I was looking for a more detailed reply. For example, by Battlefield control would you like passive "leadership" type boosts to allies in the zone, eg similar to EvE Commader ships?
Keep in mind I recall various occassions Captains sending repair teams and Extending shields as far as IP consistancy is concerned regarding the repair support role.
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As a matter of fact I have had a look at those and I tried out the dual EPtX powers and found it didn't work for me, I found I could get an EPtS when I REALLY needed one or I couldn't get EPtW when I REALLY needed it.
I also put a tactical in the same ship (Boff skills, relevant DOFFs, same equipment standard, same power levels, I originally built the toon for that ship before I put them in an escort, etc, etc) and had the same DPS problem my engineer has so I think I've hit the combined limit of the ship and beams and it SUCKS
Say what? You mean you COULDN'T get it when you really needed one? How's that work? Those builds are designed to have both of those powers running constantly. You bind those powers to a button, flip fire select to full auto, and then tape the button down. Are you being subnuc'ed or something?
I can tell you, I do enough damage as it is in the Bortasqu' as it is with 7 Beams and 1 DH Beam. I have a Boff layout identical to a Star Cruiser (with the exception of a Beam Overload 2 instead of APD1) to help exploit the tankiness of it and use the Battle side of it in the weapons, and I fly it in an Engineer and tear things apart. Discounting the Autocannon (special console which actually I don't use half the time), as soon as I broadside another players ship, I can tell they are taking damage because of the sheer power of the ship I am flying.
The Science Bortasqu' has +10 Weapons and +10 Shields. The +10 Weapons is matched byt he Regent and the Tac Odyssey, so both are capable of doing the same (especially the Odyssey, which can be setup almost identically). Of course the difference is the the 4 Tactical Console compared to the 3 of the Tact Odyssey, but 1 console less doesn't make as much of a difference with Beams compared to DHC's, meaning it could be considered effectively null.
In either case, assuming I set up my Odyssey identically to my Bortasqu' with Disruptor Beams etc., I can asure you that I would do damage on a similar level to it (slightly less due to a loss of only 1 Tac console).
My point is, it really is a matter of setting your ship up. The Bortasqu' is just a beefed up Fed Cruiser on the Klingon side if you look at it, so Fed ships have no real reason to say they can't do damage, its just the setup of the ship that matters.
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Something seems off, I'd like to not derail this thread. So, I'll just offer a few suggestions (keep in mind it's been a very long time since I flew a Fed cruiser).
For PvE use APB (or APD) and FAW broadside w/Tet glider and DEM3. Even though DEM doesn't work so well w/Beams it's still xtra damage and really manual shield distrobution or binding shield distrobution w/keep bind should keep you alive w/a couple of hull/shield rep boffs.
Fit a TB, it'll drop the main targets defense getting more hits and better quality hits.
Use EWP damage is nice, movement (defense) debuff is better.
Use Polaron or Phasers.
Invest Skill Points in flow caps and use flow cap consoles/deflector. This boosts Tet glider proc and polaron drain if you use it. Another option for Tet glider is to use 2 part jem set for xtra polaron damage boosts (basically the same as having an xtra Tac Console iirc).
Don't use ACC for PvE, Crit Hit and Crit Damage are better since NPCs don't have high defensive ratings and w/movement debuffs (TB EWP) you should have quality hits anyway. Last I heard FaW was broken and not taking ACC attributes into count anyway.
Use Aux2Batt w/Tech doffs to reduce DEM EWP etc cooldowns.
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I had something similar like the "Leadership" skill in mind. Especially ships like the Galaxy class where used as command ships, meaning they coordinated other ships maneuuvers and weapons fire. Maybe we could have something like this in STO. A passive skill that improves surrounding allied ships weaphon accuracy or improve their maneuverability slightly.
Live long and prosper.