I had something similar like the "Leadership" skill in mind. Especially ships like the Galaxy class where used as command ships, meaning they coordinated other ships maneuuvers and weapons fire. Maybe we could have something like this in STO. A passive skill that improves surrounding allied ships weaphon accuracy or improve their maneuverability slightly.
Live long and prosper.
Tbo, I wouldn't be opposed to a single active leadership type console for Cruisers only with modest effects similar to what you're suggesting.
To OP, sorry for all the thread derails, I'll shut up now.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
If you're going to use a cruiser, put max points into starship thrusters on your skill tree. Trust me on this. It makes an oddy quite tolerable without any RCS consoles. I have a primary that has maxed thruster points and gets around quite well. I have an alternate that got to VA and gave it an oddy and -- my god -- it's horrific! It's a nightmare of not being able to move....
But then I checked and my alternate has no points in starship thrusters. They make quite the difference.
And you cannot make cruiser the same as vor'cha's and battlecruisers. By very nature they are meant to be more manueverable, unlike the Bortasqu. The Bortas is really the only cruiser the KDF have, and a sad excuse for one at that.
A small turn per second boost (just maybe a few points AT MOST) would have to be matched or equaled for all KDF battlecruisers, but otherwise I don't think fed cruisers need much of a turn boost. You're supposed to park sideways and stay there to broadside things. That's it.
I'm looking at this game as a whole in terms of balance. Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship. This is also a request, rather than a topic of debate.
Ships should be fun to fly as another person stated, granted cruiser are meant for tanking. However, that does not mean turning ships like the Galaxy into an elephant
on ice.
Ruling out the Federation faction because their cruisers have been given low turn rates is unacceptable, and it is a poor way of balancing between their respective KDF counterparts.
Lets also consider most KDF ships get to use cannons. The higher turn rate in combination with cannons makes them more effective in PVP and PVE, and they can cloak.
I can go on and on about how KDF ships are better, but I'm just going to keep it simple and give all Federation cruisers a bit more turn rate. I think I agree with dotkimdontshoot and say give all Fed cruisers +2 turn rate. That does away with fussing about other mechanics.
"Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship."
Wrong. They SHOULD have to. If you just give the Federation everything that sets the KDF ships apart (whether it be nimble cruisers, battlecloak, etc), then there's even less incentive to play KDF. The point is to keep the second faction alive so we can have something more interesting that the same boring PvE grind day after day.
I, for one, am happy with the setup. Unless, of course, you're willing to balance things out by giving the KDF escorts enough improvements/tweaks to actually match up properly against the Fed selection? You know, give a little, lose a little?
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Turn and Hull multipliers for teh KDf only.
The KDF uses Cannons more prevelantly becuase as a design thier vessels are not multitaskers like the federation Cruisers but built for warfare and conquest.
The feds trek the universe in hopes of finding new societies to join or trade with in the hopes of making new friends, while the KDf patrols the Universe looking for the next race to conquer and bring into the Klingon Empire as a resource provider. Very few races are treated like the Gorn and Orions and given such equal standing.
Frankly factional vessel differences became unbalanced when the Devs starting rebalancing everything based on player feedback. Now there is little difference in how ones vessel choice within a faction feels in iether faction.
The Klingons serving on my KDF Joined Trills' ship kept telling her that. She spaced the crew that wouldn't bathe daily and used Frebreeze (for metal) on the ship like it was going out of business (not to mention the assortment of Little Trees everwhere).
Problem with extra energy for shields is it only works with the regen rate.
Also, the Fed's have more cruisers than the Galaxy and Odyssey, the Excel' has a decent turn rate and inertia. As a cruiser it can turn almost as well as the Klingons can.
"Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship."
Wrong. They SHOULD have to. If you just give the Federation everything that sets the KDF ships apart (whether it be nimble cruisers, battlecloak, etc), then there's even less incentive to play KDF. The point is to keep the second faction alive so we can have something more interesting that the same boring PvE grind day after day.
I, for one, am happy with the setup. Unless, of course, you're willing to balance things out by giving the KDF escorts enough improvements/tweaks to actually match up properly against the Fed selection? You know, give a little, lose a little?
NO, players should choose to go to KDF because they like that faction, NOT because they are annoyed of flying slow Cruisers that can't do any noticeable damage.
It's very simple, federation Cruisers don't have ANY real advantage on their side. the devs should give them a higher maneuverability and some kind of special broadside beam arrays (a counterpart to the DHCs).
Of course KDF escorts should be balanced , i have no idea of this matter, but if they are weaker as they supposed to be then yeah give them what they need!
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Wrong... The cruisers have many advantages... They are the primary tank class of the entire game, able to withstand massive loads of damage and heal themselves, others, and yet still do acceptable firepower damage to the enemies. Able to take on any enemy from any firing arc.
Don't blame the ship, the game, the very trek lore itself, for your own personal shortcomings or opinions.
Like I said, max your "Thrusters" skill points and it's quite decent.
Don't frak the game and many many other players over just because you think cruisers turn too slowly.
Wrong... The cruisers have many advantages... They are the primary tank class of the entire game, able to withstand massive loads of damage and heal themselves, others, and yet still do acceptable firepower damage to the enemies. Able to take on any enemy from any firing arc.
Don't blame the ship, the game, the very trek lore itself, for your own personal shortcomings or opinions.
Like I said, max your "Thrusters" skill points and it's quite decent.
Don't frak the game and many many other players over just because you think cruisers turn too slowly.
I was talking about Fed and KDF cruisers, not cruisers in general.
And thank you, i can handle my cruiser myself.
I wouldn't use this game name and canon Trek lore in one sentence if i where you, lol.
I wouldn't want to start a list, in how many points this game and Trek canon contradict.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Wrong. They SHOULD have to. If you just give the Federation everything that sets the KDF ships apart (whether it be nimble cruisers, battlecloak, etc), then there's even less incentive to play KDF. The point is to keep the second faction alive so we can have something more interesting that the same boring PvE grind day after day.
I, for one, am happy with the setup. Unless, of course, you're willing to balance things out by giving the KDF escorts enough improvements/tweaks to actually match up properly against the Fed selection? You know, give a little, lose a little?
There's no wrong. Everyone has a choice, and no one should be forced to play one faction because SOME of the ships in the other faction have turn rates they don't agree with.
I'm not here to say ALL Klingon ships are better. I'm not here to say that Klingon ships are overpowered. Some of you are going overboard with this.
My point is that certain ships, like the Galaxy could use a small boost in turn rate. Giving a couple of Fed cruisers like the Galaxy a turn rate boost does not mean refitting the entire Klingon fleet.
Do you really think the KDF isn't matched up well against the Federation? Lets consider the Constitution and K'T'Inga. They made the Constitution a Tier 2 Lt.Commander ship, but the K'T'Inga a Tier 3 Commander ship with 4 weapon slots, better shields, more hull strength, double the crew and a high turn rate. They are even on par with the Excelsior, a store bought item. That's not properly balanced in the least.
Again, this post is not to say KDF is overpowered compared to the Feds. It is to request a small turn rate boost for some ships like the Galaxy. No need to get in a bind about it. The producers probably won't even consider the request.
what I'm trying to get at is the balance or rather SEVERE LACK thereof, why should I have to choose between damage OR tanking? the answer? I SHOULDN'T! but because escort damage has got out of hand and cryptic took the wrong approach to sorting it I now DO HAVE to make that decision, if the balance was sorted my cruiser build would be fine, I have reached the limit of my ship (I've used 5 different builds on the damned thing and reached the most effective compromise) now it's down to the balance which I have watched slowly degrade since F2P went live and go out the window with season 6
Bring back the combat balance, watch cruiser and science ship captains rejoice and watch the escort pilots cry and complain like the rest of us have thanks to them, watch them call BS and foul play because the game is headed back in the right direction!
It'll never happen despite the fact they are trying to make money out of cruisers that are useless due to their own work... but I can dream and dream I will
Again, this post is not to say KDF is overpowered compared to the Feds. It is to request a small turn rate boost for some ships like the Galaxy. No need to get in a bind about it. The producers probably won't even consider the request.
I agree. We're not asking for cloaks or an equivalent fraction wide power for FEDs but given that the KDF cruisers get higher turn rates, better inertia, cloaks and the ability to equip DC's on their ships in exchange for a small chunk of hit points a turn rate buff or inertia change isn't out of line.
I agree. We're not asking for cloaks or an equivalent fraction wide power for FEDs but given that the KDF cruisers get higher turn rates, better inertia, cloaks and the ability to equip DC's on their ships in exchange for a small chunk of hit points a turn rate buff or inertia change isn't out of line.
Edited to be more clear.
Then fix the turn point pivot on the Qin raptor (rendering it nearly useless against Fed escorts in the same weight class) and give one of the fleet raptors a 5th tac console (since the devs so kindly gave the Feds a friggin Defiant with 5 tac consoles). You want equalization, fine. How about some for the KDF?
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Look at the way the fleets are designed. The KDF primarily rely on their Battle Cruisers and sometimes Raptors for pure up damage, with support Bird-of-Prey's, Carriers and Destroyers as support vessels. The Feds rely on Escorts for pure-up damage, because that's what they are designed to do, supported by healing Cruisers and debuffing Science ships. This is why KDF Battle Cruisers are like this, because they are the primary weapon for the KDF whereas the Fed Cruisers are not.
Fed Cruisers aren't the primary weapon of the fleet, KDF Cruisers are. That's why they are so awesome and Fed Cruisers aren't up to their level generally, because they are support ships. Each Fed ship has a specific role that contributes to the overall fleet. KDF ships all revolve around Battle Cruisers.
Play my missions on Holodeck! Return of Ja'Dok Series (6 Part Series) Enemy of the Exile Series (4 Part Series) Task Force Ja'Dok Series (3 Part Series)
Is this the one-way street where canon is used to justify a really terrible mechanic when the rest of the game tosses cannon out the window?
Like the KDF having dedicated Sci ships?
Somethings need to be in a game for simple quality of life and mechanical balance.
Wow, Over react and get defensive much?
I wasn't using canon to defend anything but was refering to a canon belief I read some where that mentioned the differences in technologies between fed and KDF at one time that would explain the Battle Cruisers higher turnrate in response to someone elses post.
Thanks for the blind and emotional attack though.
If you go back an read my posts I haven't said I anything about the feds not getting a turnrate boost for Cruisers. I said give all Cruisers in game and the KDF Battle Cruisers the same boost so the whole system moves up and ultimately remains the same.
The feds get a slightly better turn for them and the KDF do not lose thier already existing difference in ship design to the whims of the feds.
You right though,
"Somethings need to be in a game for simple quality of life and mechanical balance."
How about they give some that simple quality of life and game balance to the KDF by finishing our faction and fixing the Raptor TRIBBLE poor turnrate?
Or would that not qualify since its not a fed request?
The Klingons serving on my KDF Joined Trills' ship kept telling her that. She spaced the crew that wouldn't bathe daily and used Frebreeze (for metal) on the ship like it was going out of business (not to mention the assortment of Little Trees everwhere).
You must use bleach and even the the odor will not truelly go away. Have you replaced the air scrubbers in your vessel in the last 30 days?
It's very simple, federation Cruisers don't have ANY real advantage on their side. the devs should give them a higher maneuverability and some kind of special broadside beam arrays (a counterpart to the DHCs).
Besides greater numbers?
The federation player has many options of Cruisers to chose from if the current one they are using doesn't fit the build they have in mind. Granted most of the Cruisers are primarily Engineering and Science heavy, except the the Heavy Cruiser, the Assualt Cruiser and the Odysses.
This fits the federation very well as they always use the Engineering or science path first in a conflict and fall to voilence as the last resort.
Of course the Cruiser is not weak at combat iether and if piloted well with a good build that acccents its strengths the only way to take one down is by combined fire power from multiple attackers, and even then it takes a measure of skill to kill one.
The fed Cruiser is not near the weakling in combat you make it out to be.
Of course KDF escorts should be balanced , i have no idea of this matter, but if they are weaker as they supposed to be then yeah give them what they need!
They are not weaker nor are they more powerful.
They are different in design as befits a dedicated warship. They are not the multitasker like the federation Cruiser.
Which is why I still say boost fed Cruisers and The KDF battle Cruisers by 1 or 2 points and everyone is happy.
Or should be unless this whole, " Buff the Cruisers turnrate" initative is just PvP oriented to lessen a slight advantage the KDf has instead of giving balance to a poor aspect of gameplay.
"Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship."
Wrong. They SHOULD have to. If you just give the Federation everything that sets the KDF ships apart (whether it be nimble cruisers, battlecloak, etc), then there's even less incentive to play KDF. The point is to keep the second faction alive so we can have something more interesting that the same boring PvE grind day after day.
So you are OK with Federations having a clear advantage with regards to Escorts?
Next time there is a thread asking for many of the much needed Raptor improvements, I look forward to seeing you post:
"If you want better Escort style ships, go play Feds".
I wasn't using canon to defend anything but was refering to a canon belief I read some where that mentioned the differences in technologies between fed and KDF at one time that would explain the Battle Cruisers higher turnrate in response to someone elses post.
I never see you "refer" to things breaking cannon when it comes to the many things KDF side that do this.
I'll be more than happy to apologize if I'm wrong.
You must use bleach and even the the odor will not truelly go away. Have you replaced the air scrubbers in your vessel in the last 30 days?
Replaced the air scubbers? I've ADDED to them! I've even resorted to urethaning the interior of the ship and a rotational venting of the atmosphere of the decks. I've cut back the use of Gakh in meal plans and even decaf' in the cloaking devices (when we find them)!
So you are OK with Federations having a clear advantage with regards to Escorts?
Next time there is a thread asking for many of the much needed Raptor improvements, I look forward to seeing you post:
"If you want better Escort style ships, go play Feds".
Ulti', you have played besides my engineer, Kaylee, the Excel' I use with that character has an average turn rate of 18.2 with only two rcs's, 16.1 with only one rcs. The balance of the engi' consoles arer Neutronium armor. Thats a pretty good turn rate for a cruiser (heck, even a sci) and still has 125 power to weapons while using a Lt. Commander tactical boff. Wouldn't you agree with me that the Feds' do have maneuvaerable (not neccesarily nimble) cruiser, its just not every cruiser thats the case.
I know that when I fighting against Klingon battlecruiser, I am more concerned with it outdoing damage to me before I can outlast it and turn the tide. Fed ships tend to be a tough nut to crack, especially with Klingon ships having Lt. Tac boffs (only able to use CRF1, BO2). When I get in real trouble I can throw EM, AID and EPE plus Deut tanks to buy time to recoup. They arent perfect, but they have thier advantages.
That's not a argument, what are greater numbers are good for if all those ships turn like a elephant on ice?
Let me just point out how i see things: (as far as i know, please correct me if i am wrong )
Advantages Federations Cruiser:
- a tiny bit more hull
- 1 device slot more
Advantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser:
- can use Dual Heavy Cannons (sorry, but that advantage is much too powerful. IMHO)
- Higher turn Rate
Disadvantages Federation cruiser:
- Very low turn Rate
- No Dual Heavy Cannons (or a more Starfleet-ish equivalent)
Disadvantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser
- 1 device slot less
- a tiny bi less Hull
I don't want to make any ship stronger than the other, but as i see things, federation Cruisers get advantages they don't really need.
My point is that ALL cruisers should get a higher turn rate, and that the devs should introduce something like a boardside heavy beam array weapon for Federation ships.
If all cruisers would get a higher turn rate i could easily live with the KDF having a slightly higher turn Rate, but as it is now the differences are too great IMO.
Sorry if i was unclear in a previous post.
I don't get the point of giving Cruisers such a low turn rate, while Science ships have a much more aceptable turn rate. Both ship types should get a equal turn rate IMO. They are already different enough, Cruisers rely on weapons, Science ships rely on their "magic". Their field of activity doesn't collide with each other anyway, so i don't see a reason to differ them so much.
Things i would change:
Cruisers would become more like slower but heavier Escorts (damage wise), since every ship can survive on its own (which is a good start IMO). I like that idea, as i already said, i hate it when Cruisers are degraded to healerships. (My hackles raise even by writing that word.)
To be honest i never liked that Stone/scissor/paper MMO pattern. You can't press Star Trek ships into such a mechanic without loosing how Star Trek ships work in the first place.
And i never liked this much too powerful "over distance" healing we have in STO, every ships hould be able to take care of itself. The main difference of STOs ships should be their field of activity in Battle.
In my opinion Cruisers should get a equal firepower as Escorts (no need to rage here, lol), Crusiers would still be much slower, so they still could be outmaneuvered by escorts. The Cruisers main Firepower should be to the sides (just as now , but much stronger, so they pose a real threat), while escorts have their main firepower to the front (as we have it).
An Escorts survivability would lie in its high maneuverability and speed, while a Cruisers survivability lies in its Engineering powers (this should balanced better IMO).
So the choice to do damage would be: "do i want a fast and agile ship or a more slower and bigger ship?"
A science ship can do damage as well when choosing the right science powers, of course.
Additionally Cruisers, Science and escorts should provide different passive bonuses to all other friendly ships in their vicinity, something like Cruisers could give some percent better healing powers, escorts more damage, and science a bit more maneuverability.
Live long and prosper.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Then fix the turn point pivot on the Qin raptor (rendering it nearly useless against Fed escorts in the same weight class) and give one of the fleet raptors a 5th tac console (since the devs so kindly gave the Feds a friggin Defiant with 5 tac consoles). You want equalization, fine. How about some for the KDF?
Deal, you can have 1 more point of turn rate on the raptors(the only real piloting difference according to wiki) so that they are equal to the Fed escorts and one of your 20$ raptors without a combat cloak can have another Tac console.
I'll even do you a solid and advocate putting it on the Fleet Qin and not mention KDF's stronger carrier pets (CRF and tricobolts? WTF?), Aceton Assimilator(god I want to smack the Dev that thought these things up) and B'rel enhanced battle cloaks in this "balance" discussion. In exchange we get a bonus to our cruiser turn rates so that KDF's nimbler, DC equipping, cloaking without a console cruisers don't outshine us to such a degree.
I can't see the KDF players giving up their BOP combat cloaks anyway. Running away to heal while cloaked is just a hair too practical in PVP.
That's not a argument, what are greater numbers are good for if all those ships turn like a elephant on ice?
Let me just point out how i see things: (as far as i know, please correct me if i am wrong )
Advantages Federations Cruiser:
- a tiny bit more hull
- 1 device slot more
Advantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser:
- can use Dual Heavy Cannons (sorry, but that advantage is much too powerful. IMHO)
- Higher turn Rate
Disadvantages Federation cruiser:
- Very low turn Rate
- No Dual Heavy Cannons (or a more Starfleet-ish equivalent)
Disadvantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser
- 1 device slot less
- a tiny bi less Hull
I don't want to make any ship stronger than the other, but as i see things, federation Cruisers get advantages they don't really need.
My point is that ALL cruisers should get a higher turn rate, and that the devs should introduce something like a boardside heavy beam array weapon for Federation ships.
If all cruisers would get a higher turn rate i could easily live with the KDF having a slightly higher turn Rate, but as it is now the differences are too great IMO.
Sorry if i was unclear in a previous post.
I don't get the point of giving Cruisers such a low turn rate, while Science ships have a much more aceptable turn rate. Both ship types should get a equal turn rate IMO. They are already different enough, Cruisers rely on weapons, Science ships rely on their "magic". Their field of activity doesn't collide with each other anyway, so i don't see a reason to differ them so much.
Things i would change:
Cruisers would become more like slower but heavier Escorts (damage wise), since every ship can survive on its own (which is a good start IMO). I like that idea, as i already said, i hate it when Cruisers are degraded to healerships. (My hackles raise even by writing that word.)
To be honest i never liked that Stone/scissor/paper MMO pattern. You can't press Star Trek ships into such a mechanic without loosing how Star Trek ships work in the first place.
And i never liked this much too powerful "over distance" healing we have in STO, every ships hould be able to take care of itself. The main difference of STOs ships should be their field of activity in Battle.
In my opinion Cruisers should get a equal firepower as Escorts (no need to rage here, lol), Crusiers would still be much slower, so they still could be outmaneuvered by escorts. The Cruisers main Firepower should be to the sides (just as now , but much stronger, so they pose a real threat), while escorts have their main firepower to the front (as we have it).
An Escorts survivability would lie in its high maneuverability and speed, while a Cruisers survivability lies in its Engineering powers (this should balanced better IMO).
So the choice to do damage would be: "do i want a fast and agile ship or a more slower and bigger ship?"
A science ship can do damage as well when choosing the right science powers, of course.
Additionally Cruisers, Science and escorts should provide different passive bonuses to all other friendly ships in their vicinity, something like Cruisers could give some percent better healing powers, escorts more damage, and science a bit more maneuverability.
Live long and prosper.
The issue is game play style. KDF BCs are designed for DPS. In order to apply them they need to give up 2 Eng console slots for RCS, at least 1 Boff slot for turnrate, if possible a 2nd for a movement debuff. They need to spend another Eng high level Boff slot on Dem. Basically, they can't support their teammates as they're built out to support themselves and apply heavy pressure dps.
KDF Raiders/Escorts are there to apply spike damage and debuff.
Feds are by design meant to out grind a KDF assault and counter w/their Sci's and Escorts. Fed Cruisers are generally there to support repair teammates while applying Broadside pressure DPS. This is why Fed Cruisers are tankier b/c the Boff layout fits that role very well.
I hate to break it to you, but it's not the Escorts damage making other roles obsolete. It's actually the solo defensive boosts since Season 5. Boosting Fed Cruiser turnrate does nothing to address the main issue. It has the side effect or removing a playstyle from the game. I thought we went over this yesterday? What happened?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Deal, you can have 1 more point of turn rate on the raptors(the only real piloting difference according to wiki) so that they are equal to the Fed escorts and one of your 20$ raptors without a combat cloak can have another Tac console.
I'll even do you a solid and advocate putting it on the Fleet Qin and not mention KDF's stronger carrier pets (CRF and tricobolts? WTF?), Aceton Assimilator(god I want to smack the Dev that thought these things up) and B'rel enhanced battle cloaks in this "balance" discussion. In exchange we get a bonus to our cruiser turn rates so that KDF's nimbler, DC equipping, cloaking without a console cruisers don't outshine us to such a degree.
I can't see the KDF players giving up their BOP combat cloaks anyway. Running away to heal while cloaked is just a hair too practical in PVP.
Only the Brel can repair while cloaked.
NPCs pets were a bad idea for both sides.
The issue w/KDF Escorts and Raiders is the same as the Fed Cruisers. It's not the turnrate, but defenses have been boosted to the point where Fed Cruisers no longer apply pressure dps like they should and most KDF Escorts/Raiders don't alpha like they should. Seriously look at the Fed vs KDF fleet escort options. Feds have an escort w/decloak bonus and 5 tac consoles and 3rd rear weapon mount (the raiders don't have this). One of the KDF Fleet raiders has all of 16k base hull.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The issue w/KDF Escorts and Raiders is the same as the Fed Cruisers. It's not the turnrate, but defenses have been boosted to the point where Fed Cruisers no longer apply pressure dps like they should and most KDF Escorts/Raiders don't alpha like they should. Seriously look at the Fed vs KDF fleet escort options. Feds have an escort w/decloak bonus and 5 tac consoles and 3rd rear weapon mount (the raiders don't have this). One of the KDF Fleet raiders has all of 16k base hull.
I don't consider NPC pets a mistake in general, just poorly balanced between factions. I keep hoping Photonic fleet will get buffed because of all the pets flying around.
I must fight a lot of B'Rel's then because I see BOP's disappear and come back with full health all the time. Passive hull and shield regen greatly increase out of combat anyway, even if they have to decloak 20 KM from the fun they are still out of combat.
The one Fed escort with decloak and 5 tac consoles also has to burn a console for its decloak and is more accurately compared to the Raptors then B.O.P.s.
Fleet ships are poorly designed in general with little reason applied to their stats and cost so I'm not sure why people keep bringing them up. The knock off bird of prey we get is pure trash even with a 20 degree turn rate and the sci ships with low shield mods and thin hulls are never going to PVP worth a damn.
All we're asking for is a buff to the turn rate of our cruisers so they don't lose out to KDF cruisers on so many levels. As is KDF cruisers are just better and given the federation's status as the "cruiser faction" of STO that's kind of messed up.
I never see you "refer" to things breaking cannon when it comes to the many things KDF side that do this.
Becuase STO has very little to do with canon in any form, soft or hard.
Also I wasn't refering to canon being broken just that canonically speaking the KDF was considered to have better impulse technology and used a lot more armor than teh feds.
Hence that may be a reasoning behind the KDF having higher turn rates on thier battle Cruisers in the game.
I don't consider NPC pets a mistake in general, just poorly balanced between factions. I keep hoping Photonic fleet will get buffed because of all the pets flying around.
I must fight a lot of B'Rel's then because I see BOP's disappear and come back with full health all the time. Passive hull and shield regen greatly increase out of combat anyway, even if they have to decloak 20 KM from the fun they are still out of combat.
The one Fed escort with decloak and 5 tac consoles also has to burn a console for its decloak and is more accurately compared to the Raptors then B.O.P.s.
Fleet ships are poorly designed in general with little reason applied to their stats and cost so I'm not sure why people keep bringing them up. The knock off bird of prey we get is pure trash even with a 20 degree turn rate and the sci ships with low shield mods and thin hulls are never going to PVP worth a damn.
All we're asking for is a buff to the turn rate of our cruisers so they don't lose out to KDF cruisers on so many levels. As is KDF cruisers are just better and given the federation's status as the "cruiser faction" of STO that's kind of messed up.
Pets increase loads on server and client side. Pet debuffs are better than most Sci abilities. Pets can be spammed faster then they can be cleared thanks to Doffs. Pets clutter the UI. I fail to see anything good about them.
Shields only repair themselves while uncloaked or for 5 sec if Eng Team is used while cloaked which only a B'rel can do.
Don't even bring Fed Sci ships into this, you'll lose compared to the KDF options.
The Fleet MVAE and Fleet Defiant are much better than KDF options. Only the Jem Bug ships is better and arguably not by much esp in a team setting.
Fed Cruisers don't lose out to KDF Cruisers. The Fleet Tor'Kaht, the best KDF BC, won't break a properly tanked Fed Cruiser all other things being equal. The Fed Cruiser should have enough to toss a repair to an ally if it's just being hit by a single ship. They're different roles as part of a different faction design.
Again, all you would be doing by giving Cruisers a turn boost is removing a playstyle from the game. You have other options in both factions across all ships types. You're missing the underlying issue w/Eng Captains in general (their power mgt is less important w/all the system power boost options post Season 5), defensive boosts post Season 5 mean the broadside damage is less effective and there's less need for cross repair support.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
When I'm in my cruiser I tend to use it for Broadsiding and Team Support, the turn rate isn't a problem for me as cruisers arent meant to turn fast like escorts
That's not a argument, what are greater numbers are good for if all those ships turn like a elephant on ice?
Let me just point out how i see things: (as far as i know, please correct me if i am wrong )
Advantages Federations Cruiser:
- a tiny bit more hull
- 1 device slot more
Advantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser:
- can use Dual Heavy Cannons (sorry, but that advantage is much too powerful. IMHO)
- Higher turn Rate
Disadvantages Federation cruiser:
- Very low turn Rate
- No Dual Heavy Cannons (or a more Starfleet-ish equivalent)
Disadvantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser
- 1 device slot less
- a tiny bi less Hull
I
Yreodred, have you ever tried the Excelsior? Its a pretty powerful and maneuverable ship. I really think that this would fix 99% of your grievances with cruisers (except that they all dont look like a Galaxy class).
I must fight a lot of B'Rel's then because I see BOP's disappear and come back with full health all the time. Passive hull and shield regen greatly increase out of combat anyway, even if they have to decloak 20 KM from the fun they are still out of combat.
How do you explain those Defiants that never cloak and heal from near death to full shields and hull in combat?
Should we KDf players be upset becuase someone plays thier vessel of choice to its advantages instead of harping on its weaknesses?
The one Fed escort with decloak and 5 tac consoles also has to burn a console for its decloak and is more accurately compared to the Raptors then B.O.P.s.
Its also the best escort in the game just under the Bug ship and it was given an extra consoles slot so that cloak, if used, does not handicap the ship in any way.
Fleet ships are poorly designed in general with little reason applied to their stats and cost so I'm not sure why people keep bringing them up. The knock off bird of prey we get is pure trash even with a 20 degree turn rate and the sci ships with low shield mods and thin hulls are never going to PVP worth a damn.
Then your are not using it corectly. The Aquarius with its 20 turnrate is very much the lesser bugship in capability of BOff layout and aplication thanks now. All it lacks is that 5th tactical console slot.
All we're asking for is a buff to the turn rate of our cruisers so they don't lose out to KDF cruisers on so many levels. As is KDF cruisers are just better and given the federation's status as the "cruiser faction" of STO that's kind of messed up.
On what many levels?
How are the feds losing out? becuase they are designed differently as befits a Cruiser?
Fed cruisers are Engineering and Science BOff heavy with Tactical being the third emphasis. This fits with what we have seen in the genre and is only moved away from when we get to those cruiser more designed for warfare instead of multitasking.
The KDF battle Cruisers are Engineering and Tactical heavy with maybe a single LT Science BOff. Designed as a Warship with little of the multitasking ability to feds enjoy.
Is it the ability to mount cannons? Why is that a surprise? The genre shows that the KDF used cannons on just about every warship they have in service.
I have yet to find the scene that shows the Federation Cruiser with cannons being used in combat. The federation came up with the Escort class to solve the the problem that thier cruisers are not designed fo warfare.
The low turn rate? Thats a game balance concept more than anything else meant to reflect the fact that the Federation cruiser is and of itself not a warship.
That points to the whole difference between teh two factions. The feds are not a faction designed to war, the KDF is.
Boosting the turnrate of the feds cruisers is fine if such a low turn rate was a detirment to enjoying gameplay.
Boost it 1-2 points and match the KDF with the same boost to keep gameplay even and maintain the factional differences in Cruiser versus Battle Cruiser.
Otherwise this is a ego driven request meant to make someone feel better becuase thier vessel of choice didn't kick tail like they remember in the movies and TV shows.
You can't balance around Plot devices.
on a side note its not the numerical turnrate value that we KDF becry, but the pivot point.
Its too far back on its chassis to make for tight turns at any speed. They could keep the Raptor at a 15 turnrate if they would just move that pivot point forward a little to lessen the nose travel of the vessel.
Or if thats too much of a stepping on the feds toes as having the fast tight turning escorts, then give the Fleet Qin and Somraw a 5th tactical consoles slot.
Comments
Lol, yes. I would imagine so.
Tbo, I wouldn't be opposed to a single active leadership type console for Cruisers only with modest effects similar to what you're suggesting.
To OP, sorry for all the thread derails, I'll shut up now.
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
But then I checked and my alternate has no points in starship thrusters. They make quite the difference.
And you cannot make cruiser the same as vor'cha's and battlecruisers. By very nature they are meant to be more manueverable, unlike the Bortasqu. The Bortas is really the only cruiser the KDF have, and a sad excuse for one at that.
A small turn per second boost (just maybe a few points AT MOST) would have to be matched or equaled for all KDF battlecruisers, but otherwise I don't think fed cruisers need much of a turn boost. You're supposed to park sideways and stay there to broadside things. That's it.
"Players should not have to go to KDF just to fly a more nimble ship."
Wrong. They SHOULD have to. If you just give the Federation everything that sets the KDF ships apart (whether it be nimble cruisers, battlecloak, etc), then there's even less incentive to play KDF. The point is to keep the second faction alive so we can have something more interesting that the same boring PvE grind day after day.
I, for one, am happy with the setup. Unless, of course, you're willing to balance things out by giving the KDF escorts enough improvements/tweaks to actually match up properly against the Fed selection? You know, give a little, lose a little?
The Klingons serving on my KDF Joined Trills' ship kept telling her that. She spaced the crew that wouldn't bathe daily and used Frebreeze (for metal) on the ship like it was going out of business (not to mention the assortment of Little Trees everwhere).
Problem with extra energy for shields is it only works with the regen rate.
It's very simple, federation Cruisers don't have ANY real advantage on their side. the devs should give them a higher maneuverability and some kind of special broadside beam arrays (a counterpart to the DHCs).
Of course KDF escorts should be balanced , i have no idea of this matter, but if they are weaker as they supposed to be then yeah give them what they need!
Live long and prosper.
Don't blame the ship, the game, the very trek lore itself, for your own personal shortcomings or opinions.
Like I said, max your "Thrusters" skill points and it's quite decent.
Don't frak the game and many many other players over just because you think cruisers turn too slowly.
And thank you, i can handle my cruiser myself.
I wouldn't use this game name and canon Trek lore in one sentence if i where you, lol.
I wouldn't want to start a list, in how many points this game and Trek canon contradict.
Live long and prosper.
There's no wrong. Everyone has a choice, and no one should be forced to play one faction because SOME of the ships in the other faction have turn rates they don't agree with.
I'm not here to say ALL Klingon ships are better. I'm not here to say that Klingon ships are overpowered. Some of you are going overboard with this.
My point is that certain ships, like the Galaxy could use a small boost in turn rate. Giving a couple of Fed cruisers like the Galaxy a turn rate boost does not mean refitting the entire Klingon fleet.
Do you really think the KDF isn't matched up well against the Federation? Lets consider the Constitution and K'T'Inga. They made the Constitution a Tier 2 Lt.Commander ship, but the K'T'Inga a Tier 3 Commander ship with 4 weapon slots, better shields, more hull strength, double the crew and a high turn rate. They are even on par with the Excelsior, a store bought item. That's not properly balanced in the least.
Again, this post is not to say KDF is overpowered compared to the Feds. It is to request a small turn rate boost for some ships like the Galaxy. No need to get in a bind about it. The producers probably won't even consider the request.
Bring back the combat balance, watch cruiser and science ship captains rejoice and watch the escort pilots cry and complain like the rest of us have thanks to them, watch them call BS and foul play because the game is headed back in the right direction!
It'll never happen despite the fact they are trying to make money out of cruisers that are useless due to their own work... but I can dream and dream I will
I agree. We're not asking for cloaks or an equivalent fraction wide power for FEDs but given that the KDF cruisers get higher turn rates, better inertia, cloaks and the ability to equip DC's on their ships in exchange for a small chunk of hit points a turn rate buff or inertia change isn't out of line.
Edited to be more clear.
Then fix the turn point pivot on the Qin raptor (rendering it nearly useless against Fed escorts in the same weight class) and give one of the fleet raptors a 5th tac console (since the devs so kindly gave the Feds a friggin Defiant with 5 tac consoles). You want equalization, fine. How about some for the KDF?
Fed Cruisers aren't the primary weapon of the fleet, KDF Cruisers are. That's why they are so awesome and Fed Cruisers aren't up to their level generally, because they are support ships. Each Fed ship has a specific role that contributes to the overall fleet. KDF ships all revolve around Battle Cruisers.
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Wow, Over react and get defensive much?
I wasn't using canon to defend anything but was refering to a canon belief I read some where that mentioned the differences in technologies between fed and KDF at one time that would explain the Battle Cruisers higher turnrate in response to someone elses post.
Thanks for the blind and emotional attack though.
If you go back an read my posts I haven't said I anything about the feds not getting a turnrate boost for Cruisers. I said give all Cruisers in game and the KDF Battle Cruisers the same boost so the whole system moves up and ultimately remains the same.
The feds get a slightly better turn for them and the KDF do not lose thier already existing difference in ship design to the whims of the feds.
You right though,
How about they give some that simple quality of life and game balance to the KDF by finishing our faction and fixing the Raptor TRIBBLE poor turnrate?
Or would that not qualify since its not a fed request?
R.I.P
You must use bleach and even the the odor will not truelly go away. Have you replaced the air scrubbers in your vessel in the last 30 days?
R.I.P
The federation player has many options of Cruisers to chose from if the current one they are using doesn't fit the build they have in mind. Granted most of the Cruisers are primarily Engineering and Science heavy, except the the Heavy Cruiser, the Assualt Cruiser and the Odysses.
This fits the federation very well as they always use the Engineering or science path first in a conflict and fall to voilence as the last resort.
Of course the Cruiser is not weak at combat iether and if piloted well with a good build that acccents its strengths the only way to take one down is by combined fire power from multiple attackers, and even then it takes a measure of skill to kill one.
The fed Cruiser is not near the weakling in combat you make it out to be.
They are not weaker nor are they more powerful.
They are different in design as befits a dedicated warship. They are not the multitasker like the federation Cruiser.
Which is why I still say boost fed Cruisers and The KDF battle Cruisers by 1 or 2 points and everyone is happy.
Or should be unless this whole, " Buff the Cruisers turnrate" initative is just PvP oriented to lessen a slight advantage the KDf has instead of giving balance to a poor aspect of gameplay.
R.I.P
So you are OK with Federations having a clear advantage with regards to Escorts?
Next time there is a thread asking for many of the much needed Raptor improvements, I look forward to seeing you post:
"If you want better Escort style ships, go play Feds".
I never see you "refer" to things breaking cannon when it comes to the many things KDF side that do this.
I'll be more than happy to apologize if I'm wrong.
I guess you missed where I posted that in this very thread, and in fact spoke directly about Raptors being inferior in the very same post of mine that you quoted.
Here is a thread in the KDF sub-forums, where I say the very same thing.
Replaced the air scubbers? I've ADDED to them! I've even resorted to urethaning the interior of the ship and a rotational venting of the atmosphere of the decks. I've cut back the use of Gakh in meal plans and even decaf' in the cloaking devices (when we find them)!
Ulti', you have played besides my engineer, Kaylee, the Excel' I use with that character has an average turn rate of 18.2 with only two rcs's, 16.1 with only one rcs. The balance of the engi' consoles arer Neutronium armor. Thats a pretty good turn rate for a cruiser (heck, even a sci) and still has 125 power to weapons while using a Lt. Commander tactical boff. Wouldn't you agree with me that the Feds' do have maneuvaerable (not neccesarily nimble) cruiser, its just not every cruiser thats the case.
I know that when I fighting against Klingon battlecruiser, I am more concerned with it outdoing damage to me before I can outlast it and turn the tide. Fed ships tend to be a tough nut to crack, especially with Klingon ships having Lt. Tac boffs (only able to use CRF1, BO2). When I get in real trouble I can throw EM, AID and EPE plus Deut tanks to buy time to recoup. They arent perfect, but they have thier advantages.
Let me just point out how i see things:
(as far as i know, please correct me if i am wrong
Advantages Federations Cruiser:
- a tiny bit more hull
- 1 device slot more
Advantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser:
- can use Dual Heavy Cannons (sorry, but that advantage is much too powerful. IMHO)
- Higher turn Rate
Disadvantages Federation cruiser:
- Very low turn Rate
- No Dual Heavy Cannons (or a more Starfleet-ish equivalent)
Disadvantages Klingon Defense Force Cruiser
- 1 device slot less
- a tiny bi less Hull
I don't want to make any ship stronger than the other, but as i see things, federation Cruisers get advantages they don't really need.
My point is that ALL cruisers should get a higher turn rate, and that the devs should introduce something like a boardside heavy beam array weapon for Federation ships.
If all cruisers would get a higher turn rate i could easily live with the KDF having a slightly higher turn Rate, but as it is now the differences are too great IMO.
Sorry if i was unclear in a previous post.
I don't get the point of giving Cruisers such a low turn rate, while Science ships have a much more aceptable turn rate. Both ship types should get a equal turn rate IMO. They are already different enough, Cruisers rely on weapons, Science ships rely on their "magic". Their field of activity doesn't collide with each other anyway, so i don't see a reason to differ them so much.
Things i would change:
Cruisers would become more like slower but heavier Escorts (damage wise), since every ship can survive on its own (which is a good start IMO). I like that idea, as i already said, i hate it when Cruisers are degraded to healerships. (My hackles raise even by writing that word.)
To be honest i never liked that Stone/scissor/paper MMO pattern. You can't press Star Trek ships into such a mechanic without loosing how Star Trek ships work in the first place.
And i never liked this much too powerful "over distance" healing we have in STO, every ships hould be able to take care of itself. The main difference of STOs ships should be their field of activity in Battle.
In my opinion Cruisers should get a equal firepower as Escorts (no need to rage here, lol), Crusiers would still be much slower, so they still could be outmaneuvered by escorts. The Cruisers main Firepower should be to the sides (just as now , but much stronger, so they pose a real threat), while escorts have their main firepower to the front (as we have it).
An Escorts survivability would lie in its high maneuverability and speed, while a Cruisers survivability lies in its Engineering powers (this should balanced better IMO).
So the choice to do damage would be: "do i want a fast and agile ship or a more slower and bigger ship?"
A science ship can do damage as well when choosing the right science powers, of course.
Additionally Cruisers, Science and escorts should provide different passive bonuses to all other friendly ships in their vicinity, something like Cruisers could give some percent better healing powers, escorts more damage, and science a bit more maneuverability.
Live long and prosper.
Deal, you can have 1 more point of turn rate on the raptors(the only real piloting difference according to wiki) so that they are equal to the Fed escorts and one of your 20$ raptors without a combat cloak can have another Tac console.
I'll even do you a solid and advocate putting it on the Fleet Qin and not mention KDF's stronger carrier pets (CRF and tricobolts? WTF?), Aceton Assimilator(god I want to smack the Dev that thought these things up) and B'rel enhanced battle cloaks in this "balance" discussion. In exchange we get a bonus to our cruiser turn rates so that KDF's nimbler, DC equipping, cloaking without a console cruisers don't outshine us to such a degree.
I can't see the KDF players giving up their BOP combat cloaks anyway. Running away to heal while cloaked is just a hair too practical in PVP.
The issue is game play style. KDF BCs are designed for DPS. In order to apply them they need to give up 2 Eng console slots for RCS, at least 1 Boff slot for turnrate, if possible a 2nd for a movement debuff. They need to spend another Eng high level Boff slot on Dem. Basically, they can't support their teammates as they're built out to support themselves and apply heavy pressure dps.
KDF Raiders/Escorts are there to apply spike damage and debuff.
Feds are by design meant to out grind a KDF assault and counter w/their Sci's and Escorts. Fed Cruisers are generally there to support repair teammates while applying Broadside pressure DPS. This is why Fed Cruisers are tankier b/c the Boff layout fits that role very well.
I hate to break it to you, but it's not the Escorts damage making other roles obsolete. It's actually the solo defensive boosts since Season 5. Boosting Fed Cruiser turnrate does nothing to address the main issue. It has the side effect or removing a playstyle from the game. I thought we went over this yesterday? What happened?
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Only the Brel can repair while cloaked.
NPCs pets were a bad idea for both sides.
The issue w/KDF Escorts and Raiders is the same as the Fed Cruisers. It's not the turnrate, but defenses have been boosted to the point where Fed Cruisers no longer apply pressure dps like they should and most KDF Escorts/Raiders don't alpha like they should. Seriously look at the Fed vs KDF fleet escort options. Feds have an escort w/decloak bonus and 5 tac consoles and 3rd rear weapon mount (the raiders don't have this). One of the KDF Fleet raiders has all of 16k base hull.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I don't consider NPC pets a mistake in general, just poorly balanced between factions. I keep hoping Photonic fleet will get buffed because of all the pets flying around.
I must fight a lot of B'Rel's then because I see BOP's disappear and come back with full health all the time. Passive hull and shield regen greatly increase out of combat anyway, even if they have to decloak 20 KM from the fun they are still out of combat.
The one Fed escort with decloak and 5 tac consoles also has to burn a console for its decloak and is more accurately compared to the Raptors then B.O.P.s.
Fleet ships are poorly designed in general with little reason applied to their stats and cost so I'm not sure why people keep bringing them up. The knock off bird of prey we get is pure trash even with a 20 degree turn rate and the sci ships with low shield mods and thin hulls are never going to PVP worth a damn.
All we're asking for is a buff to the turn rate of our cruisers so they don't lose out to KDF cruisers on so many levels. As is KDF cruisers are just better and given the federation's status as the "cruiser faction" of STO that's kind of messed up.
R.I.P
Pets increase loads on server and client side. Pet debuffs are better than most Sci abilities. Pets can be spammed faster then they can be cleared thanks to Doffs. Pets clutter the UI. I fail to see anything good about them.
Shields only repair themselves while uncloaked or for 5 sec if Eng Team is used while cloaked which only a B'rel can do.
Don't even bring Fed Sci ships into this, you'll lose compared to the KDF options.
The Fleet MVAE and Fleet Defiant are much better than KDF options. Only the Jem Bug ships is better and arguably not by much esp in a team setting.
Fed Cruisers don't lose out to KDF Cruisers. The Fleet Tor'Kaht, the best KDF BC, won't break a properly tanked Fed Cruiser all other things being equal. The Fed Cruiser should have enough to toss a repair to an ally if it's just being hit by a single ship. They're different roles as part of a different faction design.
Again, all you would be doing by giving Cruisers a turn boost is removing a playstyle from the game. You have other options in both factions across all ships types. You're missing the underlying issue w/Eng Captains in general (their power mgt is less important w/all the system power boost options post Season 5), defensive boosts post Season 5 mean the broadside damage is less effective and there's less need for cross repair support.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Yreodred, have you ever tried the Excelsior? Its a pretty powerful and maneuverable ship. I really think that this would fix 99% of your grievances with cruisers (except that they all dont look like a Galaxy class).
R.I.P