Tyken's Rift 3, with 6 in Flow and 2 MK XI or MK X blue flow cap consoles nets me a -14.1 drain per second, and it stacks twice for a grand total of -28.2 to all subsystems against a target with no resists. This requires me to get a Very rare Commander BOff power, specing into FC and snatching up some FC consoles. Quite the investment in terms of gear slots and my 1 Commander Science BOff slot which has an uptime of 15 secs and a down time of 45 secs. So Lets compare
Science Ship:
1) Tyken's Rift 3, -28 to all subsystem before resists
2) Innate BTSS, -41 to one subsystem before resists
3) 6 weapon slots
Carrier with siphon drones:
1) Some other Cmdr level Sci BOff power
2) Innate BTSS, -41 to one subsystem before resists
3) Can have up to 2 hangers with siphon drones, from which 1 flight can each drain more than Tyken's 3 and ignores resists and can spawn every 9 seconds. I don't know how many waves you can spawn from each hanger, may be some one can add that information.
4) 6 weapon slots
Now lets look at "counters" to Siphon drones:
It's already been established that any power level boosting counters don't work as demonstrated by Mav. So we'll look at how to destroy them People can fill in the date that I don't have like the Shield and Hitpoints of Adv Siphon Drones.
Science ship:
TBR, active for 10 seconds with 10 pulses, down for 30 seconds, no Arc needed. Enough damage to skill Adv Siphon Drones?
Gravity Well, active for 12 seconds, down for 48 seconds, 90 degree fore arc required. Enough Damage to kill adv siphon drones?
PSW III will no longer kill them, not a viable option
FAW, requires running enough beams and weapons power in a primarily Aux focused ship class, UP for 10, down for 20 second, misses a lot. Does it do enough damage to kill Adv Siphon Drones?
Torp Spread. 90 degree fore or aft arc. Damage may be enough in 1 volley to wipe a flight? Adv siphon drones have shields right? 1 volley every 30 seconds
Cruiser:
FAW, Beams and weapon power not an issue, is it enough acc and damage to kill 1 or 2 flights before they reach you?
EWP. They need to be coming from behind you and you need to be able to spread it out. Up for 10 sec down for 35 secs?
Escorts:
CSV, requires 45 degree fore arc (lets face it, Turrets won't be able to clear them fast enough). Up for 10, down for 20.
FAW, on an escort? Really? That is one neutered escort incapable of killing any player.
Now looking at weapons, we also have to consider firing cycles.
Beams have a 4 sec firing cycle and a 1 sec "rest" cycle. So you need 5 seconds to change targets
DHC, 1 sec firing cycle, 2 sec rest cycle. You need at least 3 seconds to change target, or activate CSV + time to get into arc if you are not when they are launched.
Turrets, 1 sec firing, 1 sec rest I think? But won't necessarily do the damage you need to clear the drones
DC, 2 sec firing, 1 sec rest, see DHC flaws
Torps, 6 sec on Photons between shots, if running multiple 1 sec between shots, but one 1 spread every 30 or 15 seconds. Not going to keep up with Drone deployment.
Mines, won't kill a drone. Dispersal patterns are once every 45 secs. Mines have long cooldowns.
Further Down side of all these destroy them counters, it involves wasting time where you are not doing useful damage to an actual player in PvP while the carrier launching them will still be doing damage to you. You need 1 person dedicated to keep drone deployment under control per carrier. Things get worse if someone is also running those KDF pets running chronitons and tric mines.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Naz, these people who keep trying to say that they can handle Siphon Drones builds and etc. have probably really not faced off against it.
So hey, want to build a couple stupid OP Drain ships and team up in some PUG matches for
say three weeks or so? Maybe if we demonstrate the point they will finally come to terms that we are in fact correct? Heck, we should even go in Kerrat between matches and toy with people there. The Borg can do the killing and we can do the draining.
/Sigh?
Lol. Seriously, I would be up for some tests like that. We can make a video of real evidence this way (not a video where a ship lets itself surrounded by siphons. I am 100% sure that given some time, I will kill a carrier with all his pets spawning twice a minute. Now, you may say there are more carriers, and I may say well, I'm not the only one in the team. Seriously, let's have a drain carrier fight vs various teams (beam boats w escort and sci).
Over all, I'm ready fore some (constructive) action, and I'll be ready to kick some siphon a$$ since duke nukem took all my bubble gum. But wait, that was naz :eek:. Lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Lol. Seriously, I would be up for some tests like that. We can make a video of real evidence this way (not a video where a ship lets itself surrounded by siphons. I am 100% sure that given some time, I will kill a carrier with all his pets spawning twice a minute. Now, you may say there are more carriers, and I may say well, I'm not the only one in the team. Seriously, let's have a drain carrier fight vs various teams (beam boats w escort and sci).
Over all, I'm ready fore some (constructive) action, and I'll be ready to kick some siphon a$$ since duke nukem took all my bubble gum. But wait, that was naz :eek:. Lol.
Let's see you say that after dealing with TR3s, VMS and lolarons coupled with that there champ
You won't.
It's not a matter of "letting anything" what are you going to do, run away and abandon your team mates, and leave them to die to get away from the pods? You act like splitting the party up, is a good idea in pvp. You know better.
You can spam faw all you want, but you can't chain faw anymore. there's 5 second gaps, the carrier can and will get to use the gaps in faw, tbr, GW, and warp plas. to keep 2 to 3 carriers supressed requires -constant- team work, and vent cooridination of using your AOEs properly, while the carriers can be pugs, just spamming wave after wave.
God help you if there's VM, and tykens on the field as well. And there's no saving you even by divine intervention if there's lolarons and sub nucs as well.
Lol. Seriously, I would be up for some tests like that. We can make a video of real evidence this way (not a video where a ship lets itself surrounded by siphons. I am 100% sure that given some time, I will kill a carrier with all his pets spawning twice a minute. Now, you may say there are more carriers, and I may say well, I'm not the only one in the team. Seriously, let's have a drain carrier fight vs various teams (beam boats w escort and sci).
Over all, I'm ready fore some (constructive) action, and I'll be ready to kick some siphon a$$ since duke nukem took all my bubble gum. But wait, that was naz :eek:. Lol.
OMG!!!! I know how to solve the Siphon Drone problem quick and easy! Why not give each Siphon Drone the Energy Siphon Ability. The same ability that comes in the Science Profession in the Bridge Officer Ability tree!
In this way, each Drone will only each cast a level one Power Siphon, level two for advanced drones whenever it is available and therefore they will not always be draining power from my ship! Furthermore, if they use the same ability, it should be resisted in the same way. What about them apples? Anyone have an issue with that solution? :cool:
Let's see you say that after dealing with TR3s, VMS and lolarons coupled with that there champ
You won't.
It's not a matter of "letting anything" what are you going to do, run away and abandon your team mates, and leave them to die to get away from the pods? You act like splitting the party up, is a good idea in pvp. You know better.
You can spam faw all you want, but you can't chain faw anymore. there's 5 second gaps, the carrier can and will get to use the gaps in faw, tbr, GW, and warp plas. to keep 2 to 3 carriers supressed requires -constant- team work, and vent cooridination of using your AOEs properly, while the carriers can be pugs, just spamming wave after wave.
God help you if there's VM, and tykens on the field as well. And there's no saving you even by divine intervention if there's lolarons and sub nucs as well.
What you said may be true or may not. I assume an equally skilled team, using at least a cannon escort and 3, maybe 4 tac beam boats. Guarantee the carrier team gets nailed. But in the sense of fairness, what I say is kind of stupid team, lol, good maybe only for this demo. When you get focused by many, subnuc-ed to death by subnuc or the subnuc doffs, and get no heals from your team, you don't stand a chance no matter what, siphons or not.
Lolarons are indeed another example of how jacked up the drains are. And I also use them on some builds... Call me exploiter, lol, but when most ppl do same thing, sometimes the only way to keep up is to do the same. Still, i think insulators resist them but the flow cap can boost the heck out of them. Plus if you have the astrophysicist trait (I think that's the one that gives +10 flow).
Set aside the fact siphons really need a look into them and fixed, I think most of us if not all agree with that. What should we do would be to organize some fun matches (lol, if any can name carriers w siphons fun) in which we have 1, max 2 carriers. I think that is normally what you may encounter in a team, not common to see more than 2. As I said before, whoever brings in a team w siphons should be doomed to be siphoned for the rest of his playing time in sto, lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Lol. Seriously, I would be up for some tests like that. We can make a video of real evidence this way (not a video where a ship lets itself surrounded by siphons. I am 100% sure that given some time, I will kill a carrier with all his pets spawning twice a minute. Now, you may say there are more carriers, and I may say well, I'm not the only one in the team. Seriously, let's have a drain carrier fight vs various teams (beam boats w escort and sci).
Over all, I'm ready fore some (constructive) action, and I'll be ready to kick some siphon a$$ since duke nukem took all my bubble gum. But wait, that was naz :eek:. Lol.
May I ask what gives you the impression that the Siphon Drones are only being launched twice a minute or every 30 seconds? I can launch them just about every 10 seconds.
See, this is why I don't take seriously what you say are counters.
I don't mean to be a devil's advocate... but I have no problems against siphon drones. I used to until I started running a different setup for fvk. I run tbr 1, torp spread 2, and faw1. I'm in an scioddy engi healboat.
Either have the tacs on the team target the mothership or have them run layouts that arent single target focused (can you imagine a tac bug with more aoe tac abilities? O_o... those poor poor drones :P
May I ask what gives you the impression that the Siphon Drones are only being launched twice a minute or every 30 seconds? I can launch them just about every 10 seconds.
See, this is why I don't take seriously what you say are counters.
Good catch, my bad. Typo/user error. I mean for every faw that lasts 10 seconds, I count on killing that siphon spawn. And I'm sure that I can, if I'm not gang banged by more ships and my team won't suck. Think i can also stack some energy beam doffs and chain faw3 (minus 5sec in between). And faw3 fries pets like popcorn in a microwave. You're correct though, with doffs you can launch them every 10 sec. Or something like that.
And what I said are not counters, are work arounds. What you kill, yea, that's a counter, lol, but I didn't mean counter = kill. We do need siphons to be looked into. We should maybe just set up a match sometime to see how the "work arounds" are, but now I'm for continuing to see how can we find a reasonable fix for this. Not that I dislike having a constructive argument but I think at the end we all agree upon this siphon fix beeping necessary and we're just debating strategies, and we should maybe leave that for the queues, lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
OMG!!!! I know how to solve the Siphon Drone problem quick and easy! Why not give each Siphon Drone the Energy Siphon Ability. The same ability that comes in the Science Profession in the Bridge Officer Ability tree!
In this way, each Drone will only each cast a level one Power Siphon, level two for advanced drones whenever it is available and therefore they will not always be draining power from my ship! Furthermore, if they use the same ability, it should be resisted in the same way. What about them apples? Anyone have an issue with that solution? :cool:
nonono! I have hopes for them to fix/break the real energy siphon and make good again! Then suddenly all the drones would have good ES! :eek:
lol.. I got cencored for pointing out that someone, by pointing out that someone was derailing, was himself derailing? Even if I pointed out that by pointing this out, I was also derailing?
Was there a law against sarcasm added in todays patch?
Well, sarcasm was OP anyway... good to see they apply fixes where needed!
Good catch, my bad. Typo/user error. I mean for every faw that lasts 10 seconds, I count on killing that siphon spawn. And I'm sure that I can, if I'm not gang banged by more ships and my team won't suck. Think i can also stack some energy beam doffs and chain faw3 (minus 5sec in between). And faw3 fries pets like popcorn in a microwave. You're correct though, with doffs you can launch them every 10 sec. Or something like that.
And what I said are not counters, are work arounds. What you kill, yea, that's a counter, lol, but I didn't mean counter = kill. We do need siphons to be looked into. We should maybe just set up a match sometime to see how the "work arounds" are, but now I'm for continuing to see how can we find a reasonable fix for this. Not that I dislike having a constructive argument but I think at the end we all agree upon this siphon fix beeping necessary and we're just debating strategies, and we should maybe leave that for the queues, lol.
I think post #67 of this thread is so far the easiest fix to implement in the game. :P
I wonder, never tried it, do siphons start sucking from the mother ship if ams-Ed? Or for that reason from the friendlies? Lol. That would be funny... If that works, we have a fix already.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I think those abilities should apply to pets. That would really add some fun to the table. Till everybody runs ams/scramble and no carriers. And if I think, it would be not as bad at all... Lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
And after another handful of seconds, the drones blow up, and your power is back in no time.
Which is why you use more than one.
Against an energy drain carrier I certainly wouldn't. But then, I don't use cannons anway.
That is two waves already. Have 2 copies of TS and 2 copies of FAW, and you are at an average of one enhanced volley per 7.5 seconds. With EWP (for example, on an Armitage class ship) as the "point defense of last resort", and a console here or there (PDS consoles, for example), you can deal with it.
The only real problem with the drones are the missing resists.
While you don't do anything?
Sorry, but this comes across as if your real problem was that you might actually be defeated by a carrier. Of course they have ways to strike and take out an opposing ship. But that is not the topic here.
The drones will be back in Ten Seconds. Your power will still be TRIBBLE at that point. Hell you'll probably be Dead.
Even if your whole team fields counters, I hate to break this to you, but carrier spawn rate is much faster than their counters.
You have no choice if you use cannons. Your options with torps are also cripplingly limited.
Yeah, good luck with keeping up with 4 wings that can deploy every 10 seconds, in live pvp and not those little 1v1s you like so much.
What part of Shut Down Completely don't you get there?
Yeah, that's actually their problem. What do you think people have been trying to say this whole time. The resists don't work, and their spawn rate is better than the counters when coupled with the advanced drone durability.
Pvp Doesn't happen in a vacuum. The thing is siphon pods literally shut down every subsystem in your arsenal. Weapon power based counters do not work, batteries do not work, EPS power Transfer Doesn't work. Movement based counters like Eject Warp Plasma do not work, nor do firing angle based solutions because you have to Move to use them.
Sure 1v1 it's not That bad. But then pvp doesn't happen 1v1. Unless you lurk in challenge ques all the time. En masse, you'll be dealing with Sci Bops loaded up for drains, 2 carriers, and probably a tac flying around in all of that mess as well. Maybe 2. Your entire team will be shut down in seconds. 2 to 3 Vms is more than enough to take a whole team out of the equation, while the pods, TR3, Tractor, all come out to play. At that point, any defensive buffs you do manage to get up get sub nucced off, and the 2 tacs just alpha their way through your entire team.
There is literally nothing you can do about it fedside either, even running a full bore AOE team, because of how ludicrously fast they spawn, and all of the other shutdowns on the field.
Because Power Insulators, Doesn't Work. If it did work, they'd be far far more managable and the skills and abilities that you think are counters, would actually be counters.
Sounds to me more like you don't play an awful lot of 5v5 against competent opponents, if you think the "counters" work properly.
Sophocles, I think a lot of the pvp ballance could be addressed by implementing a different pvp style and more maps. Definitely pvp finds its most ballance in close skilled teams. In 1-1 I feel the victory stays with whoever can stay alive more and in same time can put out some damage. The gaps become bigger in 1-1. If you would know your opponent before, you could get some different counters/Boff layout that could transform a defeat in a victory. In 5-5, the gaps become thinner. That's why the ballance must be achieved for 5-5. No matter how much you try to ballance 1-1, you can't close the gaps like in 5-5, unless everybody flies same ship and same boff layout. in a team is more likely your buddy will have a timely heal or debuff or counter than you would in 1-1. Still, I enjoy more 1-1s just because there is not so much spam, stuns, disables and things like that. That's the downside in a team. But ballance, must be done considering team play, I'm all in for that.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
There is nothing I can say that will make you change your point of view. It boils down to different experiences within the game.
I'd rather takes his word based on his experience, than your word based on your lack of experience.
Any moderately skilled pvper knows 1v1 does not work in STO. Building a ship that can not be killed by a single opponent is the easiest thing in the world. Heck, building a ship that can't be destroyed by two other ships isn't difficult. And using said ship to faceroll n00bs is also no difficult task. When you realize this, and are ready to join the queues for grown ups, you may grasp the meaning of whats being debated here. (I realized this after about of month of 1v1, back in -09, but hey, everyone develops at their own pace)
I stayed quiet civil in this thread and seems like this thread is starting to derail - common cause.... Let's see
seems the cause of the all the upset people is permanent... I haven't seen a single thread in the pvp forum the last weeks, that hasn't been trolled into oblivion by two people/players who shall remain nameless...
seems the cause of the all the upset people is permanent... I haven't seen a single thread in the pvp forum the last weeks, that hasn't been trolled into oblivion by two people/players who shall remain nameless...
So, in the thread that got closed, I pointed out that I ran the counters that Sophokles is advocating, and the result was that with only one carrier on the field, I could (barely) keep up with the spam, and do NOTHING ELSE. The reply was 'What did you or your team do wrong', which I didn't get to reply to. Here is my reply:
The mistake I made was thinking like you do. I tried to put enough counters in my build that I could keep up with the relentless waves of siphon drones etc, thinking I would somehow be 'winning' those engagements. The reality of the situation was that far from winning, I was at best keeping even, because the effort I was expending on just countering the pets was so great that I had nothing 'left' to fight the carrier with in the tiny windows I had where there were no drones present. That's really the TLDR, the rest of this is me being very detailed and a bit pedantic, so I understand if you leave it at that:)
You seem to be thinking that if a ship dedicates the vast bulk of its resources to negating the pets a carrier spawns, that is somehow an advantage. It isn't. In a one on one situation, it means yeah, you won't die from the pets (and you MIGHT not die to the carrier, if you have a decent tank and know how to use it), BUT it also means that you will never, ever beat the carrier, because you will be so busy dealing with the pets that you can never put enough dmg together in an alpha strike to break through any decent carrier's tank. So, yay, I bring a tailor built counter to siphons, and at best I get a stalemate 1 v 1. Already, this seems like a problem (remember, you want 1 v 1 fights to always terminate, right?).
In a team, the situation is actually WORSE, as it means my team is always automatically down one effective ship, just sweeping up the spam, and that's assuming there's only one carrier on the field. Once you get multiple carriers in the mix, countering the pets becomes simply impossible for any one ship to handle (I mean literally impossible, given the max number of targets AOE powers can hit, versus the number of incoming targets). So, now what? Lose yet another ship to spam duty? Or lose a ship to siphon draining? Either way, it's a loss.
Now, to deal with predictable counters:
1) You say "my experience is different that yours (and imply that your experience is the superior standard to judge by)". Response: Possible, but unlikely - probably none of the hardcore PVP community knows me well, as I don't often talk in OPvP, I'm not part of any premades, and what little people do know is probably not that impressive - I run a Beamscort MVAE, do okay in most pug queue matches, and generally just try to have fun. In short, I am 'average' - I know why running beams isn't smart, but do it anyway. I ran [Borg] mod weapons in matches just because I was too lazy to get Acc mod weapons, etc. The point is, if I, as a fairly experienced but altogether average player can't make your advice work, then your counters aren't good enough for the general population, so shouldn't be held up as any kind of far-reaching solution.
2) You retry "You used the counters wrong" - Response: First, your reasoning is circular - the counters work, so I must have used them wrong, therefore my evidence is invalid because the counters work. Second: Weapon power 125+, FAW2 x 2, TS 1 x 2, APO3, APB 2, 4 MKXII blue phaser consoles, Beam Arrays and torps front/rear, both PDS consoles, Theta vent console, stacking Tac captain buffs when I could. My experience was that I made a mess of pets for like 30 seconds at a time, but because doing so put so many powers on GCD that even if I had somehow run Beam Overload or some other spike powers, they wouldn't have refreshed before another wave of pets was incoming, and with two carriers, all those counters were insufficient. Thus, unable to contribute to my team beyond spam clearance, and even then I wasn't enough. You say I used them wrong. Show me how. (Oh, ps switched from Danubes to Peregrines after first death - Peregrines on 'escort' didn't seem to help either)
3) "Your build was wrong" - see above - Also, I would add that TS alone is useless against advanced siphon drones because they have shields, and even FAW is dicey since it takes more than one hit to knock one down (Usually like 3-4, in my experience). I was forced to use BOTH powers together to kill a wave, which means your 7.5 seconds figure was actually 15 seconds in practice.
4) "I don't engage in text battles" - That's why I gave you detailed info from actual in-game use. If you've got actual experience with this to back up your claims, by all means, post it. I don't even mean 'screens or it didn't happen', I just mean explain the flow of the battle and how you managed to use them correctly. Just know that unless you can explain how I should be getting my torps to one-shot advanced drones through shields, I'm not buying the claims you're making about recharge times vs respawn times, etc.
Comments
Science Ship:
1) Tyken's Rift 3, -28 to all subsystem before resists
2) Innate BTSS, -41 to one subsystem before resists
3) 6 weapon slots
Carrier with siphon drones:
1) Some other Cmdr level Sci BOff power
2) Innate BTSS, -41 to one subsystem before resists
3) Can have up to 2 hangers with siphon drones, from which 1 flight can each drain more than Tyken's 3 and ignores resists and can spawn every 9 seconds. I don't know how many waves you can spawn from each hanger, may be some one can add that information.
4) 6 weapon slots
Now lets look at "counters" to Siphon drones:
It's already been established that any power level boosting counters don't work as demonstrated by Mav. So we'll look at how to destroy them People can fill in the date that I don't have like the Shield and Hitpoints of Adv Siphon Drones.
Science ship:
TBR, active for 10 seconds with 10 pulses, down for 30 seconds, no Arc needed. Enough damage to skill Adv Siphon Drones?
Gravity Well, active for 12 seconds, down for 48 seconds, 90 degree fore arc required. Enough Damage to kill adv siphon drones?
PSW III will no longer kill them, not a viable option
FAW, requires running enough beams and weapons power in a primarily Aux focused ship class, UP for 10, down for 20 second, misses a lot. Does it do enough damage to kill Adv Siphon Drones?
Torp Spread. 90 degree fore or aft arc. Damage may be enough in 1 volley to wipe a flight? Adv siphon drones have shields right? 1 volley every 30 seconds
Cruiser:
FAW, Beams and weapon power not an issue, is it enough acc and damage to kill 1 or 2 flights before they reach you?
EWP. They need to be coming from behind you and you need to be able to spread it out. Up for 10 sec down for 35 secs?
Escorts:
CSV, requires 45 degree fore arc (lets face it, Turrets won't be able to clear them fast enough). Up for 10, down for 20.
FAW, on an escort? Really? That is one neutered escort incapable of killing any player.
Now looking at weapons, we also have to consider firing cycles.
Beams have a 4 sec firing cycle and a 1 sec "rest" cycle. So you need 5 seconds to change targets
DHC, 1 sec firing cycle, 2 sec rest cycle. You need at least 3 seconds to change target, or activate CSV + time to get into arc if you are not when they are launched.
Turrets, 1 sec firing, 1 sec rest I think? But won't necessarily do the damage you need to clear the drones
DC, 2 sec firing, 1 sec rest, see DHC flaws
Torps, 6 sec on Photons between shots, if running multiple 1 sec between shots, but one 1 spread every 30 or 15 seconds. Not going to keep up with Drone deployment.
Mines, won't kill a drone. Dispersal patterns are once every 45 secs. Mines have long cooldowns.
Further Down side of all these destroy them counters, it involves wasting time where you are not doing useful damage to an actual player in PvP while the carrier launching them will still be doing damage to you. You need 1 person dedicated to keep drone deployment under control per carrier. Things get worse if someone is also running those KDF pets running chronitons and tric mines.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Lol. Seriously, I would be up for some tests like that. We can make a video of real evidence this way (not a video where a ship lets itself surrounded by siphons. I am 100% sure that given some time, I will kill a carrier with all his pets spawning twice a minute. Now, you may say there are more carriers, and I may say well, I'm not the only one in the team. Seriously, let's have a drain carrier fight vs various teams (beam boats w escort and sci).
Over all, I'm ready fore some (constructive) action, and I'll be ready to kick some siphon a$$ since duke nukem took all my bubble gum. But wait, that was naz :eek:. Lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Let's see you say that after dealing with TR3s, VMS and lolarons coupled with that there champ
You won't.
It's not a matter of "letting anything" what are you going to do, run away and abandon your team mates, and leave them to die to get away from the pods? You act like splitting the party up, is a good idea in pvp. You know better.
You can spam faw all you want, but you can't chain faw anymore. there's 5 second gaps, the carrier can and will get to use the gaps in faw, tbr, GW, and warp plas. to keep 2 to 3 carriers supressed requires -constant- team work, and vent cooridination of using your AOEs properly, while the carriers can be pugs, just spamming wave after wave.
God help you if there's VM, and tykens on the field as well. And there's no saving you even by divine intervention if there's lolarons and sub nucs as well.
funny guy....lol
In this way, each Drone will only each cast a level one Power Siphon, level two for advanced drones whenever it is available and therefore they will not always be draining power from my ship! Furthermore, if they use the same ability, it should be resisted in the same way. What about them apples? Anyone have an issue with that solution? :cool:
What you said may be true or may not. I assume an equally skilled team, using at least a cannon escort and 3, maybe 4 tac beam boats. Guarantee the carrier team gets nailed. But in the sense of fairness, what I say is kind of stupid team, lol, good maybe only for this demo. When you get focused by many, subnuc-ed to death by subnuc or the subnuc doffs, and get no heals from your team, you don't stand a chance no matter what, siphons or not.
Lolarons are indeed another example of how jacked up the drains are. And I also use them on some builds... Call me exploiter, lol, but when most ppl do same thing, sometimes the only way to keep up is to do the same. Still, i think insulators resist them but the flow cap can boost the heck out of them. Plus if you have the astrophysicist trait (I think that's the one that gives +10 flow).
Set aside the fact siphons really need a look into them and fixed, I think most of us if not all agree with that. What should we do would be to organize some fun matches (lol, if any can name carriers w siphons fun) in which we have 1, max 2 carriers. I think that is normally what you may encounter in a team, not common to see more than 2. As I said before, whoever brings in a team w siphons should be doomed to be siphoned for the rest of his playing time in sto, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
May I ask what gives you the impression that the Siphon Drones are only being launched twice a minute or every 30 seconds? I can launch them just about every 10 seconds.
See, this is why I don't take seriously what you say are counters.
Either have the tacs on the team target the mothership or have them run layouts that arent single target focused (can you imagine a tac bug with more aoe tac abilities? O_o... those poor poor drones :P
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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Good catch, my bad. Typo/user error. I mean for every faw that lasts 10 seconds, I count on killing that siphon spawn. And I'm sure that I can, if I'm not gang banged by more ships and my team won't suck. Think i can also stack some energy beam doffs and chain faw3 (minus 5sec in between). And faw3 fries pets like popcorn in a microwave. You're correct though, with doffs you can launch them every 10 sec. Or something like that.
And what I said are not counters, are work arounds. What you kill, yea, that's a counter, lol, but I didn't mean counter = kill. We do need siphons to be looked into. We should maybe just set up a match sometime to see how the "work arounds" are, but now I'm for continuing to see how can we find a reasonable fix for this. Not that I dislike having a constructive argument but I think at the end we all agree upon this siphon fix beeping necessary and we're just debating strategies, and we should maybe leave that for the queues, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
nonono! I have hopes for them to fix/break the real energy siphon and make good again! Then suddenly all the drones would have good ES! :eek:
lol.. I got cencored for pointing out that someone, by pointing out that someone was derailing, was himself derailing? Even if I pointed out that by pointing this out, I was also derailing?
Was there a law against sarcasm added in todays patch?
Well, sarcasm was OP anyway... good to see they apply fixes where needed!
I think post #67 of this thread is so far the easiest fix to implement in the game. :P
Hey, it is a good fix for the Siphon Drones and you know it!!!
Besides, Siphon drones won't get the bonus from say stuff like Flow Capasitors or will they? That might be a bit OP even then. lol
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
The drones will be back in Ten Seconds. Your power will still be TRIBBLE at that point. Hell you'll probably be Dead.
Even if your whole team fields counters, I hate to break this to you, but carrier spawn rate is much faster than their counters.
You have no choice if you use cannons. Your options with torps are also cripplingly limited.
Yeah, good luck with keeping up with 4 wings that can deploy every 10 seconds, in live pvp and not those little 1v1s you like so much.
What part of Shut Down Completely don't you get there?
Yeah, that's actually their problem. What do you think people have been trying to say this whole time. The resists don't work, and their spawn rate is better than the counters when coupled with the advanced drone durability.
Pvp Doesn't happen in a vacuum. The thing is siphon pods literally shut down every subsystem in your arsenal. Weapon power based counters do not work, batteries do not work, EPS power Transfer Doesn't work. Movement based counters like Eject Warp Plasma do not work, nor do firing angle based solutions because you have to Move to use them.
Sure 1v1 it's not That bad. But then pvp doesn't happen 1v1. Unless you lurk in challenge ques all the time. En masse, you'll be dealing with Sci Bops loaded up for drains, 2 carriers, and probably a tac flying around in all of that mess as well. Maybe 2. Your entire team will be shut down in seconds. 2 to 3 Vms is more than enough to take a whole team out of the equation, while the pods, TR3, Tractor, all come out to play. At that point, any defensive buffs you do manage to get up get sub nucced off, and the 2 tacs just alpha their way through your entire team.
There is literally nothing you can do about it fedside either, even running a full bore AOE team, because of how ludicrously fast they spawn, and all of the other shutdowns on the field.
Because Power Insulators, Doesn't Work. If it did work, they'd be far far more managable and the skills and abilities that you think are counters, would actually be counters.
Sounds to me more like you don't play an awful lot of 5v5 against competent opponents, if you think the "counters" work properly.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
You're the one implying I was butt hurt.
I know for a fact you don't 5v5. So why even comment on what happens in a 5v5, against Skilled opponents?
I stayed quiet civil in this thread and seems like this thread is starting to derail - common cause.... Let's see
I'd rather takes his word based on his experience, than your word based on your lack of experience.
Any moderately skilled pvper knows 1v1 does not work in STO. Building a ship that can not be killed by a single opponent is the easiest thing in the world. Heck, building a ship that can't be destroyed by two other ships isn't difficult. And using said ship to faceroll n00bs is also no difficult task. When you realize this, and are ready to join the queues for grown ups, you may grasp the meaning of whats being debated here. (I realized this after about of month of 1v1, back in -09, but hey, everyone develops at their own pace)
seems the cause of the all the upset people is permanent... I haven't seen a single thread in the pvp forum the last weeks, that hasn't been trolled into oblivion by two people/players who shall remain nameless...
i apologize
........
they suck.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH! You must be punished! FETCH... THE COMFY CHAIR!!!
what makes that even more hilarious is that we actually yell that at each other from time to time when someone fails. its great.
The mistake I made was thinking like you do. I tried to put enough counters in my build that I could keep up with the relentless waves of siphon drones etc, thinking I would somehow be 'winning' those engagements. The reality of the situation was that far from winning, I was at best keeping even, because the effort I was expending on just countering the pets was so great that I had nothing 'left' to fight the carrier with in the tiny windows I had where there were no drones present. That's really the TLDR, the rest of this is me being very detailed and a bit pedantic, so I understand if you leave it at that:)
You seem to be thinking that if a ship dedicates the vast bulk of its resources to negating the pets a carrier spawns, that is somehow an advantage. It isn't. In a one on one situation, it means yeah, you won't die from the pets (and you MIGHT not die to the carrier, if you have a decent tank and know how to use it), BUT it also means that you will never, ever beat the carrier, because you will be so busy dealing with the pets that you can never put enough dmg together in an alpha strike to break through any decent carrier's tank. So, yay, I bring a tailor built counter to siphons, and at best I get a stalemate 1 v 1. Already, this seems like a problem (remember, you want 1 v 1 fights to always terminate, right?).
In a team, the situation is actually WORSE, as it means my team is always automatically down one effective ship, just sweeping up the spam, and that's assuming there's only one carrier on the field. Once you get multiple carriers in the mix, countering the pets becomes simply impossible for any one ship to handle (I mean literally impossible, given the max number of targets AOE powers can hit, versus the number of incoming targets). So, now what? Lose yet another ship to spam duty? Or lose a ship to siphon draining? Either way, it's a loss.
Now, to deal with predictable counters:
1) You say "my experience is different that yours (and imply that your experience is the superior standard to judge by)". Response: Possible, but unlikely - probably none of the hardcore PVP community knows me well, as I don't often talk in OPvP, I'm not part of any premades, and what little people do know is probably not that impressive - I run a Beamscort MVAE, do okay in most pug queue matches, and generally just try to have fun. In short, I am 'average' - I know why running beams isn't smart, but do it anyway. I ran [Borg] mod weapons in matches just because I was too lazy to get Acc mod weapons, etc. The point is, if I, as a fairly experienced but altogether average player can't make your advice work, then your counters aren't good enough for the general population, so shouldn't be held up as any kind of far-reaching solution.
2) You retry "You used the counters wrong" - Response: First, your reasoning is circular - the counters work, so I must have used them wrong, therefore my evidence is invalid because the counters work. Second: Weapon power 125+, FAW2 x 2, TS 1 x 2, APO3, APB 2, 4 MKXII blue phaser consoles, Beam Arrays and torps front/rear, both PDS consoles, Theta vent console, stacking Tac captain buffs when I could. My experience was that I made a mess of pets for like 30 seconds at a time, but because doing so put so many powers on GCD that even if I had somehow run Beam Overload or some other spike powers, they wouldn't have refreshed before another wave of pets was incoming, and with two carriers, all those counters were insufficient. Thus, unable to contribute to my team beyond spam clearance, and even then I wasn't enough. You say I used them wrong. Show me how. (Oh, ps switched from Danubes to Peregrines after first death - Peregrines on 'escort' didn't seem to help either)
3) "Your build was wrong" - see above - Also, I would add that TS alone is useless against advanced siphon drones because they have shields, and even FAW is dicey since it takes more than one hit to knock one down (Usually like 3-4, in my experience). I was forced to use BOTH powers together to kill a wave, which means your 7.5 seconds figure was actually 15 seconds in practice.
4) "I don't engage in text battles" - That's why I gave you detailed info from actual in-game use. If you've got actual experience with this to back up your claims, by all means, post it. I don't even mean 'screens or it didn't happen', I just mean explain the flow of the battle and how you managed to use them correctly. Just know that unless you can explain how I should be getting my torps to one-shot advanced drones through shields, I'm not buying the claims you're making about recharge times vs respawn times, etc.