Multiples of Power Siphon Drones in PVP

trueprom3theus

Ok, the close thread hammer landed on this one:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=363211

But I'd like to ask the community to lay down what seems to be broken and brainstorm some fixes suggestions. I am really curious on what people have to say and how we can come up, as a civilized community, to a consensus on what needs to be done to fix what we establish may be broken. If there is necessary, I'll update this post to include everything that needs attention.

I would start by saying that the following need a look at:

- siphon drones: go here-> http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=363461
- phaser procs
- stacking subnuc doffs (not really sure about this one, do we have a limit or the proc of the doffs is only an issue for me)
- other folks issue will be here

Please provide a fixing idea (how broken ability should work) and also a counter (to the way it works now) to the above.

teleon22

As a long time Veteran myself, I agree that Power Siphon Drones are overpowered and for the following specific reasons.

1. Power Siphon Drones force a player who is targeted by them to focus on destroying or avoiding the drones in PVP. This forced focus has the effect of allowing the Drone Carrier the ability to attack with near impunity, enabling him or her to use their other bridge officer abilities on their otherwise distracted target. This only becomes a problem when the drones can never be cleared completely for any useable amount of time; which any good siphon drone build will be able to pump out more drones every 9-10 seconds. Thus, always forcing the target to focus on the Drones or die by power drain. This un-balance has to do with effort. It takes a lot less effort to simply keep launching the Drones than it does to deal with them.

2. Power Drain resistances do not work to mitigate or even prevent the draining effect from the Siphon Drone drain. Neither does spike power increases from things like EPS-Flow, Dual Batteries or Red Matter Capacitor help to overcome the power drain over duration. This is a serious issue because it means that players can be completely drained of all subsystem power within mere seconds without any real means to recover.

3. The only viable counter to Power Siphon Drones is to eliminate them. This would at first glance seem like a fair, balanced and viable way to deal with them. However, the truth is, you will never be able to clear them all for any useable amount of time because they can be re-launched just about every 10 seconds. This is especially true in PVP where a team has two or more players launching Drones. Furthermore, chances are that they will not be the only abilities used that are draining your subsystem power levels! However, again, the issue becomes again that players must focus too much of their attention and too many of their Abilities on countering the Drones; and while they are focusing their attention on the Drones, their enemies are free to do their worst because to ignore the Drones is suicide.

So in summary: Power Siphon Drones are overpowered because of the amount of focus and Abilities that are required to counter them will leave the targeted player completely vulnerable to every other ability that the Drone Carrier can use such as: Beam Target Subsystem, Power Siphon, and Borg Tractor Beam and etc. etc. The issue is that I?m being forced to deal with a single ability with my many multiple combinations of abilities, while you the Drone Carrier are completely free to focus all of your attention on me. This is un-balanced!!!

Now, how to solve the issue? I like the idea of the Drone exploding once it has drained a pre-set amount of power.

However, I also would advocate that small fighters that every player can get, including the Scorpion fighters, were made to be specifically more effective against all Drones when set to escort or defend target mode. They should also be the priority target of small fighters. In this way, players can use their fighters, a single ability, to help mitigate the issue and not lose focus on the real target, the carrier.

trueprom3theus

My opinion about the above:

For Siphons go here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=5408411&posted=1#post5408411

Phasers are still a killer. Even if the disable immunity would work. But it doesn't. What I'll do is to either boost resistance for subsystem repair, so that no disable would be more than .5 sec, either take out shield disable proc, either have immunity for 5-10 sec when using eptx, eng team. Something similar to tac team.

Subnuc doff: not sure here what's the fix an if one is necessary. It is indeed annoying to be targeted by only 2-3 ships that have them, put on top o that a real subnuc and you're toast, lol. As of 1-1, 3 subnuc doff doesn't seem deal breaker, but in a team, it's definitely annoying. And impossible to counter. We may need a sci team doff, that procs sci teams, lol.

Unknown

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teleon22

sophlogimo wrote: »

So what would, in your opinion, be a good basic cooldown for the power siphon hangars?

I honestly have no idea, too long and they are too easily cleared. Too short and they can?t be cleared enough. Probably the best solution was one in which someone suggested that they just blow up or return to hanger once they?ve drained X amount of energy from the target.
As it is now, they just drain and drain and drain.

naz4

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost

trueprom3theus

Since both teleon and I made a thread that touches siphons, I added a link to my thread (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=5407951#post5407951) to point here, to discuss siphons.

Here are my thoughts for siphons:

Siphons are definitely op, easy to use for the least skilled players and somehow provide an unfair advantage. I would be for "slightly" tune them so that batteries can provide at least a 10-20 power to that level and allow you to evasive out. Counters right now would be to either run, either kill them. Killing them happens using csv and faw. I personally think faw is more efficient since you don't have to spend 18.5 sec in a bug to turn 180degrees (lol at dass). Indeed IMO an escort w faw doesn't look right but it works like a charm. Also ewp, psw works decently well. Even though those are work arounds, it would be nice for cryptic to take a look at them and see if there is something to be done to adjust them but not to the point of making them useless.

teleon22

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost

trueprom3theus

sophlogimo wrote: »

So what would, in your opinion, be a good basic cooldown for the power siphon hangars?

I wouldn't mess with the cool down, I would rather have a possibility of partially resist them or to give an option of escaping them, even if window of opportunity would be a small one.

praxi5

Easiest fix?

Properly implement the resistance mechanic. If Power Insulators can pretty much turn CPB/Tachyon Beam/Energy Siphon/Tyken's Rift into a joke, why do these Siphon Drones get a free pass?

naz4

Reduce the quantity of drone spawning to 1 and increase it's hull. Nett effect would be reduced drain but increased survivability. Drains enough power to be useful but not enough to be crippling an OP.

Same with Danubes as above.

Phaser procs, reduce chance of proc to 1.25%

Sub nuke doffs have been adjusted drasticly. Previously used to be 2.5% chance to proc, now 0.5%. Down side of using them is you'ld have to get rid of bfi doffs thereby reducing survivability. In summary, leave them alone for now.

teleon22

One thing is for sure, I absolutely don't understand the decision not to use the exact same power drain formula on all of the power drain abilities so that each power drain ability could be resisted in the same way or by the same mechanics. If all power drain abilities used the same formula, power draining would only become more effective with stacking power drains on top of each other. This would work exactly the same way as Buff and De-Buff where effectiveness increases with the stack.

naz4

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost

havam

naz4 wrote: »

Reduce the quantity of drone spawning to 1 and increase it's hull. Nett effect would be reduced drain but increased survivability. Drains enough power to be useful but not enough to be crippling an OP.

Same with Danubes as above.

Phaser procs, reduce chance of proc to 1.25%

Sub nuke doffs have been adjusted drasticly. Previously used to be 2.5% chance to proc, now 0.5%. Down side of using them is you'ld have to get rid of bfi doffs thereby reducing survivability. In summary, leave them alone for now.

these sound like good ideas

Unknown

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marctraiderz

My advice on this particular issue, fix the problem at the roots.

The whole power draining system needs a serious revamp.

trueprom3theus

naz4 wrote: »

Done

I posted a possible fix in the other thread.....

naz4 wrote: »

Reduce the quantity of drone spawning to 1 and increase it's hull. Nett effect would be reduced drain but increased survivability. Drains enough power to be useful but not enough to be crippling an OP.

Added your siphon fix idea ^^^^.

Thing is that I agree is awkward siphons not to be resisted a bit by insulators. Or maybe they are but drain too much energy. To be devils advocate, some folks just don't like the actual counters: escorts hate becoming beamscorts with faw(that would kill the siphons in a heart beat) and some other players don't like to run away of them (or pay attention). On the other side, every idiot can get a carrier and spawn the siphons. But this also applies to the d-flyer with tractors. And the darn phaser procs. Lol. Even though in this case pol hull is available for every ship class.

I personally disagree with your idea naz. Having only one siphon pet, even if you give it 30000k hull would make it too easy to destroy since you don't need any aoe ability or targeting switch. I think the best approach is to make power insulators resist a little and also have batteries/ep to x giving an above 10-20 power to the level. Let's be honest, they really die easy. And if you pay attention, as soon as you notice them approaching you may take evasive actions to avoid them. The only thing as I find very annoying is if you don't have faw, those buggers are really a pain in the butt.

teleon22

marctraiderz wrote: »

My advice on this particular issue, fix the problem at the roots.

The whole power draining system needs a serious revamp.

The way I would fix every single Power Drain Ability in the game is with this formula below. Cryptic, go ahead and use it if you find it worthwhile. It is posted publically and free information for you to use, so use it!

Energy Siphon: Drain enemy power levels by X per second over 10 seconds. Drain effect improved with higher auxiliary power level.

Power Drain: X = 0.1 * ((Sum (Flow Capacitor Bonus + bonus from consoles + bonus from equipment)) ? Sum (target Flow Capacitors + bonus from consoles + bonus from equipment))*auxiliary power level/duration of effect.

What does this look like when put into useable numbers?
Assume Flow Capacitors = 252% bonus with equipment and consoles
Assume 100 auxiliary power
Assume Target Power Insulators = 79% with equipment and consoles

X =0.1*(252%)-79%) *100/10
X = 1.73 over ten seconds or a total of 17.3 power drained to all subsystems over ten seconds. This can stack with other power drains if done this way. Higher power insulator value will reduce this. See another example here:

What does this look like when put into useable numbers?
Assume Flow Capacitors = 252% bonus with equipment and consoles
Assume 100 auxiliary power level
Assume Target Power Insulators = 135% with equipment and consoles
X =0.1*(252%)-79%) *100/10
X = 1.17 over ten seconds or a total of 11.7 power drained to all subsystems over ten seconds.

trueprom3theus

marctraiderz wrote: »

My advice on this particular issue, fix the problem at the roots.

The whole power draining system needs a serious revamp.

I concur! Everything in this game, more or less, that does power drains, should be resisted by power insulators.

criminius

Say AWWWW

Alll kidding aside, I hope they do something quick about this otherwise I sense that this will further hurt FvK. Maybe another way to kill klinks even further?

trueprom3theus

criminius wrote: »

Say AWWWW

Alll kidding aside, I hope they do something quick about this otherwise I sense that this will further hurt FvK. Maybe another way to kill klinks even further?

Lmao. More klings doing pushups?

Seriously, may be just me, but haven't seen more than 3 kling carriers in a pug ever.

aquitaine985

I don't really see what there is to discuss. Broken mechanics are talked about in the forums to the EXTREME, and very little tends to be done, there are likely dozens of threads wih all this in by now. Why do another?

teleon22

trueprom3theus wrote: »

I concur! Everything in this game, more or less, that does power drains, should be resisted by power insulators.

What about what I suggest above your post? I think that forumla could work and be balanced. The only issue with it is, if my Power Insulators have a higher bonus than your Flow Capacitors, you won't be able to drain me.... but is that really an issue?

dassemsto

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost

trueprom3theus

teleon22 wrote: »

The way I would fix every single Power Drain Ability in the game is with this formula below. Cryptic, go ahead and use it if you find it worthwhile. It is posted publically and free information for you to use, so use it!

Energy Siphon: Drain enemy power levels by X per second over 10 seconds. Drain effect improved with higher auxiliary power level.

Power Drain: X = 0.1 * ((Sum (Flow Capacitor Bonus + bonus from consoles + bonus from equipment)) ? Sum (target Flow Capacitors + bonus from consoles + bonus from equipment))*auxiliary power level/duration of effect.

What does this look like when put into useable numbers?
Assume Flow Capacitors = 252% bonus with equipment and consoles
Assume 100 auxiliary power
Assume Target Power Insulators = 79% with equipment and consoles

X =0.1*(252%)-79%) *100/10
X = 1.73 over ten seconds or a total of 17.3 power drained to all subsystems over ten seconds. This can stack with other power drains if done this way. Higher power insulator value will reduce this. See another example here:

What does this look like when put into useable numbers?
Assume Flow Capacitors = 252% bonus with equipment and consoles
Assume 100 auxiliary power level
Assume Target Power Insulators = 135% with equipment and consoles
X =0.1*(252%)-79%) *100/10
X = 1.17 over ten seconds or a total of 11.7 power drained to all subsystems over ten seconds.

I think we should go up to 40-50 power drain easy, but sort of paying attention on how that stacks. Normally, a total of 50-60 power drain would partially immobilize you, especially if that's to all systems. I think that finding a level on how much drain would seem right (like a max and a min one can achieve) is next to impossible. We don't know the formulas (we only have reverse engineered ideas on how it may be), there are so many other factors (how many people drain you, insulators, flows...). Thing is the power drains can't be team-stopped other than using the magical team batts, but in theory can be focused on target, thus having too much stack can result in siphons 2.0, and if the drain is smaller it becomes useless if not used as a team. So yea, I don't really have an answer, lol, any ideas?

dassemsto

aquitaine985 wrote: »

I don't really see what there is to discuss. Broken mechanics are talked about in the forums to the EXTREME, and very little tends to be done, there are likely dozens of threads wih all this in by now. Why do another?

oh, things ARE being done... just not the right things...

bye "good-psw3"! say hello to CPB and Tachyon beam for me! Wherever it is you go, i'm sure you'll find them there!

teleon22

trueprom3theus wrote: »

I think we should go up to 40-50 power drain easy, but sort of paying attention on how that stacks. Normally, a total of 50-60 power drain would partially immobilize you, especially if that's to all systems. I think that finding a level on how much drain would seem right (like a max and a min one can achieve) is next to impossible. We don't know the formulas (we only have reverse engineered ideas on how it may be), there are so many other factors (how many people drain you, insulators, flows...). Thing is the power drains can't be team-stopped other than using the magical team batts, but in theory can be focused on target, thus having too much stack can result in siphons 2.0, and I the drain is smaller it becomes useless if not used as a team. So yea, I don't really have an answer, lol, any ideas?

Good points. I do think that Engineering Team could be made the also clear power drain effects over the 5second duration. In this way, at least a player has a chance to escape. However, I do think that all power drain abilities should work the same way in-so-far-as how they are resisted.

Also, I wanted to add, that using my formula, if you stack two power drains on top of each other, you can achieve high power drain. Just plug in two energy siphons or assume that a target subsystem drain does the same thing but to a single subsystem etc. Point is, the forumla I came up with would apply to any power drain effect and it covers how they are reduced or resisted.

cmdrskyfaller

Ok let me rephrase the OP's request in a different situation.


Weapon damage should be reduced significantly because my ship can't take it. I don't know how to defend myself against another ship attacking me. Please devs make the ouchies hurt less so I don't have to put any effort into my ship build. kk thnx bye!



That is how this silly drain drone request reads like to drone spec carriers.


Here's a few facts for you:

The drain drone ship does not have as much weapons as an escort nor as a cruiser. It spec's not only points in weapons and shields like those two ships do but also in flow capacitors. Drain drones alone do not shut down a ship unless there are four wings deployed AND they've been sucking the target's power for a minimum of 30 seconds.

(If you're not aware, siphon drones were nerfed long ago so that their drain amount happened slowly and built up... so if you kill one drone the drone that is launched to replace it does not 'pick up' the power drain...it has to start from scratch..aka another 30 seconds or so to get back to max drain level).

To defeat siphon drones all you need is tractor repulsors. A 30 second re-use timer boff power that removes all siphon drones either by killing them or pushing them out of siphon range and thus resetting their drain amount. Beam fire at will kills them quickly as well. Torpedo Spread or a single mine drop finishes them off too.

All these abilities have the same re-use timer the siphon drones have: 30 seconds.

Not to mention the drones are SLOW and all you need to do to get a breather from them is hit evasive maneuvers. It resets the drain amount reached by the drones and allows you to hit them with weapons as they crawl towards you.


Now, if it takes four wings (two separate launches per hangar..aka 1 minute total to achieve 4 wings) nearly 1 minute to bring your ship down to critically low power levels...

... and you can reset the drain amount on you by merely pushing or moving out of range of the siphon drones....

...and the siphon drones are really slow...

...and they die in droves to any AOE attack....


Then pray tell HOW in the world are you complaining that they shut you down? You have to have a seriously incompetent ship build to get owned by siphon drones.


What in the world would you do when you meet a non-carrier ship that is built to defeat you without using weapons?

trueprom3theus

teleon22 wrote: »

What about what I suggest above your post? I think that forumla could work and be balanced. The only issue with it is, if my Power Insulators have a higher bonus than your Flow Capacitors, you won't be able to drain me.... but is that really an issue?

Great minds think alike, lol, I was just replying. Your ideea IMO is a good start, but I think we need more info on how exactly the resists and drains work. Also, I think that a 0 spec in flow should drain at least some small amount from a maxed speced in insulators.

If cryptic could be nice to let us know the formulas, we may be able to find something useful, but I doubt they will release anything of this. And I sort of understand why, it would open the gates of continuous "brilliant" improvements. It's really hard for any of us to be the system engineer without any extra "under the hood" info.

teleon22

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost

trueprom3theus

teleon22 wrote: »

Good points. I do think that Engineering Team could be made the also clear power drain effects over the 5second duration. In this way, at least a player has a chance to escape. However, I do think that all power drain abilities should work the same way in-so-far-as how they are resisted.

Also, I wanted to add, that using my formula, if you stack two power drains on top of each other, you can achieve high power drain. Just plug in two energy siphons or assume that a target subsystem drain does the same thing but to a single subsystem etc. Point is, the forumla I came up with would apply to any power drain effect and it covers how they are reduced or resisted.

I really like your idea with eng team. you have 5 sec to get the heck out or do something. This would add more use to a team other than tt. That can also be dependent on eps, power levels would restore faster or slower. About your formula, it's a great idea for teams but individually I think the drain is a little small. And I'm back to "no idea" scenario, lol, other than put an energy drain cap which I'm personally against by principle.