This has taken a while to get here, I'm impressed at how long it kept an air of civility. I got trolled SO hard in one of his first threads. It was a long con. He let it build up, acting like he was truly interested in learning about STO for a while, only to explain why anyone with a comment was a fool.
I am a fan of sapere aude. Words must be very convincing (with numbers and stuff mixed into it) to convince me. Hard, cold data. That is why battles convince me, and if you have followed this thread, the battles that occured against rally good people did make me change my build.
Then can I "dare" you to share you information as to the following "counter points" you gave to my original post, so that I might bask in the glorious glow of your divine enlightenment?
Most notably I would ask how you came/what data you used to decide that 4 beams were better than 5 or 6 beams.
Hard, cold data as it were would be nice here to see how you reached this conclusion.
Next I would like to see the cold hard data as it were, regarding FAW, BO, or any other ability providing more damage than Attack Pattern Beta or Delta for a carrier, specifically an Atrox if possible. Mostly we would be discounting BO3, FAW3, and similar Klink carrier only powers that the Atrox cannot realistically use, since again this is about the Atrox.
Ultimately BO will provide more burst than most any other option, but mostly I am looking at total damage here.
Please also make sure this data is complete, partial data such as not including fighters would be a poor resource in this regard. For good dps measures I'd suggest using stalkers or peregrines, but realize peregrines need to be more heavily micro'd to return the best results.
Further it would also be good to note that APB or APD both improve there returns in a team setting where as BO is static and infact FAW gets worse with more targets around unless you are using it for cleanup duty.
If you could provide the cold hard data for either of these two disputed cases, I would be most intrigued. Mostly the data I have seen leads to a contrary view to your own, so I would like to see the data that has given you the view you hold.
So no fight. Then maybe you're not as good as you claim.
Yea hes really not that good.. i think i saw him play a few times. pretty sure you could beat him in less then a min. he really just likes to troll people in the forum bc he cant beat anybody in-game.
You are giving scientists a bad name, have you even considered or tried any of the suggestions?
Part of research is testing new things out, accepting that your hypothesis is incorrect, changing X to Y to ensure that the sucess or failure was caused by X. A good scientist knows that you shouldn't do research alone and that making the data "work" for you to make you look better is bad taste.
After 20+ pages of disregarding suggestions, this thread should just end.
Finally, you claim to be a man of science and yet multiple times in this discussion you talk of "Proof." what does science say of proof?
I might have been in slight err about the TDG (I doubt it. I'm scheduling a test weekend against -competent- pilots. those that have and don't have the grid) but I'm not wrong on anything else I've posted.
There's nothing in this game barring that one fluke that you know better than I on, I'm afraid. This isn't arrogance talking. This is Experience.
Also, I don't appreciate being called a Parasite. Infact I bet I throw more friendly buffs to my allies in a pvp match than you do Mr I Have To Soak Every Heal I have just to live through an Alpha strike delivered by a lone punk MVAM because I refuse to run EPTS.
Notice how during our bouts, my hull at -all times- was higher than your own? with your multiple hull heals versus my none? Now, who do you think any of the famous engi captains is going to want to heal first. Me with my superior burst dps, superior tanking, and superior crowd control... or you... with your sole benefit being Screen Clutter?
Know why? Cause I know how important shield tanking is.
Also, you're running turrets. Useless on a carrier, you aren't fast enough nor agile enough to stay in close to get any kind of dps out of the turrets, furthermore, turret DPS is a joke without CRF.
Seriously, not even a week ago you figured your double torps and DBB upfront was usable. And now you are all like "this beam array idea is stupid I'll never broadside!" You know, the Voquv is even more Fat than an Atrox, and guess what everyone runs on those. Beams. Know why? Cause you can broadside even in something that positively obese and once you factor in Range Dropoff, turrets suck even harder. Easily. Infact it's easier to broadside in ships that aren't going to be focused into becoming Respawn Bait.
You aren't going to stumble upon some uber hax build that runs counter to what almost every single hardened pvp fleet is running. Not only do we have group experience, and a firm grasp on team tactics, but we also have more people to sift through the combat logs, interpret data, and evaluate Time On Target vs Target Death ratios, but also cause frankly each of us for the most part has alot more game time in than you do. If you want to roll whatever you want thats fine. Run Boarding party for all I care. But don't say you know better than, well your Proven Betters, especially when "Oh well he was wrong about TDG! HE CAN BE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE FOREVER!" I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. And I haven't even confirmed TDG yet. I'm pretty certain though, that Premades (namely Pandas or TSI here especially) would be using TDG every chance they got if it was worth slotting... coincidentally I don't ever really remember seeing it, save for when one of them first got a nebula. Couldn't be because in the overall picture, it's garbage. Because sure, you -might- get a spotting in before the alpha gets dumped on you.
But... it still doing nothing to help your survival in the first place once it comes. Good Pvpers, are always at least Semi Hardened against surprise alpha strikes 24/7 anyway to have more time to react to the full salvo. It's also one and done. Sensor scan is a much better cloak removal ability which works for the whole team instead of one clown build.
Good Pvpers don't need to run Garbage Skills like CPB which you don't even time right to prevent a recloaking. I've watched you in kerrat a couple of times now cloaked, Good and Great PvPers run Good cloak surpressors like Tractor Beam (go ask minimax@emojoe about how ghey my tractor beam is for knocking him out of cloak), or run skills that can hit cloaked enemies and potentially one shot the bop ******* that's coming in like PSW3 (you can again ask poor mini what it's like having my tac buffed recon slap him one with a PSW3 while he's cloaked), or completely TRIBBLE their alpha over, and still potentially kill them before decloak is finished with TBR3. Failing any of the above, they run Viral Matrix 3, to shut down the ship when they detect the ship, hose the guys alpha completely and simultaneously prevent him from properly defending himself from the counter attack.
Also tell me, what exactly is your ship supposed to do on the battlefield, I really want to know at this point. Crowd Control? I do better CC in my MVAM than you do in your carrier. DPS? Please you couldn't even down a facing on an MVAM that was running Double Offense in his sci slots. Healing? How? I shoot even 4 volleys at you, and you soak all your heals just to survive the assault. Leaving me 3 to 4 seconds of CRF3 to go dump into someone else and send them to the respawn point. I tank better than you do, which means an Escort can throw more heals, more safely than your carrier.
Clutter up the screen with pets? I can do that in you guessed it an MVAM, Just let me put two mine launchers on, a dispersal pattern in one of my lt spots, and some scorpion fighters. Couple that with my pets, and hm maybe I should buy an AMS to TRIBBLE people over big time... and there you go, I just out did you there, by still doing all the above while cluttering a screen at the same time. Now I won't do this, because while I am a TRIBBLE, I'm not a Douche but I could.
Also, I don't appreciate being called a Parasite. Infact I bet I throw more friendly buffs to my allies in a pvp match than you do Mr I Have To Soak Every Heal I have just to live through an Alpha strike delivered by a lone punk MVAM because I refuse to run EPTS.
Huh, I just rescanned the build. I thought i saw epts in there but hey, it's not.
Doesnt' sound like it with the last few posts i've seen. Best end this thread whilst people are still being sort of civil to you.
I dont know if its your choice of words that make you sound arrogant or you just being arrogant full stop. Either way, your not making friends. All you'll do is paint an even bigger bullseye on your ship for all the pvp'ers out there and boy will you get some "hard" data.
Doesnt' sound like it with the last few posts i've seen.[...]
Yes, it does. I was basically saying "even Mav can err, so check everything and think for yourself" and you somehow understood "mav errs all the time".
Honestly guys, does it really matter if he listens? Let him continue to run 1 on 1 builds in 5v5+ queues. He certainly isn't the first to farm PvP, rage at respawn or quit a match when things don't go his way. He won't be the last. Personally, I love a Furrier that buckles under a little coordinated effort.
We just need to remember folks like this when they push for major changes to the way an MMO is played.
Okay, Sivar was so kind to let me test my new build in a 1v1 against two of his toons. We did 4 runs, one against his sci toon in a raptor, one against his tac toon in a BortasQ, each 10 minutes with my pets equipped, and 10 minutes without, just to test the Tolerance's tanking. It was a stalemate in all four cases, although with pets, I naturally did more damage than without. I got his cruiser down to 61 percent once, but that may be because of sheer luck. Anyway, such tests show that the ship does what it is designed for and is on the same level as his ships.
Now, if only someone with a tac escort could offer me the chance...
Honestly guys, does it really matter if he listens? Let him continue to run 1 on 1 builds in 5v5+ queues. He certainly isn't the first to farm PvP, rage at respawn or quit a match when things don't go his way. He won't be the last. Personally, I love a Furrier that buckles under a little coordinated effort.
We just need to remember folks like this when they push for major changes to the way an MMO is played.
We just need to remember folks like this when they push for major changes to the way an MMO is played.
I think the issue lies in the fact that such mindsets are more common place than common sense and STO seems to have an abundance to the point of over-crowding.
I haven't all but stopped playing PvP (or STO for that matter as a whole) becuase I find the PvP crowd unfun. I love the PvP crowd. The ones I know and recognize tend to be more than challenging and fighting with or against them is fun.
I merely have gotten tired of all the children running around screaming, bent on thier own ego-centric desires in belief that said desires should exist just becuase they say so.
Its the same reason I do not go to Chuckie Cheese.
The olde pvp'ers crowd are going to Chuckie Cheese's to celebrate Cryptic's 6th season of "pvp is very important to us, please hold!"
Sadly, we're going to have to throw your invitation out because of this inflamatory statement.
S'all right. I'm taking him to Fast Lane instead. ya'll have fun with the rodent and snot filled children. We'll enjoy, adult beverages and women wearing short shorts and form fitting clothes.
S'all right. I'm taking him to Fast Lane instead. ya'll have fun with the rodent and snot filled children. We'll enjoy, adult beverages and women wearing short shorts and form fitting clothes.
A ship full of heals, even if many of them could potentially be used on others, is a zombie - especially in the 1 on 1 scenario you seem to be favoring for testing purposes. Carrying on about 1 on 1, and down playing the importance of team play in an MMO, plays a bit to this type of build's strength (which is keeping itself alive and not much else).
Some people have this interesting notion that simply surviving is a win. It's not. Someone has to die.
If it wasn't for the over powered, poorly balanced pets, this build couldn't stand. I wouldn't build an entire ship around poor mechanics but that's me.
Did I miss the part where you said someone was defeated? Or did everyone just survive? I only ask because my reading comprehension can be a little off.
Well, as I wrote, I write again: There does not seem to be any fundamental flaw in the build so that it could blow up or not do damage in 1v1 against Sivar's two toons. Yes, that does not mean that it will perform just as well in a "competent Arena", but most certainly it means that it does well in my susual game environment. I would, of course, also try 5v5 on a "higher" level, but that seems to require very careful timing with joining the queues - or finding 9 other people who'd play when I have the time.
Well I dont have a 1v1 build, but Im sure I can switch some stuff around to accommodate your odd fascination with 1v1's. So to what end are we testing? If I blow you up, you admit your build is flawed? If you don't blow me up, you admit your build is flawed? On the flip side, if you blow me up, I admit your build is viable? Have you blown anyone up in this thread in a 1v1? If not, wtf are you still running a tac in a carrier? If a high dps escort is as "easy" to pilot as you say it is, why don't you contribute to some kills with all those tac abilities instead of letting them go to waste in a carrier? It's a lot harder to fly an escort and stay alive which I'm again guessing is the reason why you apparently dont fly escorts anymore.
Oh btw, jsimons right. I'm not very good at this game
Well I dont have a 1v1 build, but Im sure I can switch some stuff around to accommodate your odd fascination with 1v1's. So to what end are we testing? If I blow you up, you admit your build is flawed? If you don't blow me up, you admit your build is flawed?
Of course.
On the flip side, if you blow me up, I admit your build is viable?
No. Both of our builds are viable if we cannot destroy each other's ship in ten minutes of fighting. If I blow you up, that means your build must be flawed.
I believe the game is set up so that two ships built and operated at a competent level will not be able to destroy each other. If one of the two is destroyed, it was not built and/or operated competently.
Have you blown anyone up in this thread in a 1v1?
Steve Hale, would you answer that question, please?
Comments
:rolleyes: You know, not everyone who does not sing with the choir is a troll.
Then can I "dare" you to share you information as to the following "counter points" you gave to my original post, so that I might bask in the glorious glow of your divine enlightenment?
Most notably I would ask how you came/what data you used to decide that 4 beams were better than 5 or 6 beams.
Hard, cold data as it were would be nice here to see how you reached this conclusion.
Next I would like to see the cold hard data as it were, regarding FAW, BO, or any other ability providing more damage than Attack Pattern Beta or Delta for a carrier, specifically an Atrox if possible. Mostly we would be discounting BO3, FAW3, and similar Klink carrier only powers that the Atrox cannot realistically use, since again this is about the Atrox.
Ultimately BO will provide more burst than most any other option, but mostly I am looking at total damage here.
Please also make sure this data is complete, partial data such as not including fighters would be a poor resource in this regard. For good dps measures I'd suggest using stalkers or peregrines, but realize peregrines need to be more heavily micro'd to return the best results.
Further it would also be good to note that APB or APD both improve there returns in a team setting where as BO is static and infact FAW gets worse with more targets around unless you are using it for cleanup duty.
If you could provide the cold hard data for either of these two disputed cases, I would be most intrigued. Mostly the data I have seen leads to a contrary view to your own, so I would like to see the data that has given you the view you hold.
Yea hes really not that good.. i think i saw him play a few times. pretty sure you could beat him in less then a min. he really just likes to troll people in the forum bc he cant beat anybody in-game.
Part of research is testing new things out, accepting that your hypothesis is incorrect, changing X to Y to ensure that the sucess or failure was caused by X. A good scientist knows that you shouldn't do research alone and that making the data "work" for you to make you look better is bad taste.
After 20+ pages of disregarding suggestions, this thread should just end.
Finally, you claim to be a man of science and yet multiple times in this discussion you talk of "Proof." what does science say of proof?
There's nothing in this game barring that one fluke that you know better than I on, I'm afraid. This isn't arrogance talking. This is Experience.
Also, I don't appreciate being called a Parasite. Infact I bet I throw more friendly buffs to my allies in a pvp match than you do Mr I Have To Soak Every Heal I have just to live through an Alpha strike delivered by a lone punk MVAM because I refuse to run EPTS.
Notice how during our bouts, my hull at -all times- was higher than your own? with your multiple hull heals versus my none? Now, who do you think any of the famous engi captains is going to want to heal first. Me with my superior burst dps, superior tanking, and superior crowd control... or you... with your sole benefit being Screen Clutter?
Know why? Cause I know how important shield tanking is.
Also, you're running turrets. Useless on a carrier, you aren't fast enough nor agile enough to stay in close to get any kind of dps out of the turrets, furthermore, turret DPS is a joke without CRF.
Seriously, not even a week ago you figured your double torps and DBB upfront was usable. And now you are all like "this beam array idea is stupid I'll never broadside!" You know, the Voquv is even more Fat than an Atrox, and guess what everyone runs on those. Beams. Know why? Cause you can broadside even in something that positively obese and once you factor in Range Dropoff, turrets suck even harder. Easily. Infact it's easier to broadside in ships that aren't going to be focused into becoming Respawn Bait.
You aren't going to stumble upon some uber hax build that runs counter to what almost every single hardened pvp fleet is running. Not only do we have group experience, and a firm grasp on team tactics, but we also have more people to sift through the combat logs, interpret data, and evaluate Time On Target vs Target Death ratios, but also cause frankly each of us for the most part has alot more game time in than you do. If you want to roll whatever you want thats fine. Run Boarding party for all I care. But don't say you know better than, well your Proven Betters, especially when "Oh well he was wrong about TDG! HE CAN BE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE FOREVER!" I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. And I haven't even confirmed TDG yet. I'm pretty certain though, that Premades (namely Pandas or TSI here especially) would be using TDG every chance they got if it was worth slotting... coincidentally I don't ever really remember seeing it, save for when one of them first got a nebula. Couldn't be because in the overall picture, it's garbage. Because sure, you -might- get a spotting in before the alpha gets dumped on you.
But... it still doing nothing to help your survival in the first place once it comes. Good Pvpers, are always at least Semi Hardened against surprise alpha strikes 24/7 anyway to have more time to react to the full salvo. It's also one and done. Sensor scan is a much better cloak removal ability which works for the whole team instead of one clown build.
Good Pvpers don't need to run Garbage Skills like CPB which you don't even time right to prevent a recloaking. I've watched you in kerrat a couple of times now cloaked, Good and Great PvPers run Good cloak surpressors like Tractor Beam (go ask minimax@emojoe about how ghey my tractor beam is for knocking him out of cloak), or run skills that can hit cloaked enemies and potentially one shot the bop ******* that's coming in like PSW3 (you can again ask poor mini what it's like having my tac buffed recon slap him one with a PSW3 while he's cloaked), or completely TRIBBLE their alpha over, and still potentially kill them before decloak is finished with TBR3. Failing any of the above, they run Viral Matrix 3, to shut down the ship when they detect the ship, hose the guys alpha completely and simultaneously prevent him from properly defending himself from the counter attack.
Also tell me, what exactly is your ship supposed to do on the battlefield, I really want to know at this point. Crowd Control? I do better CC in my MVAM than you do in your carrier. DPS? Please you couldn't even down a facing on an MVAM that was running Double Offense in his sci slots. Healing? How? I shoot even 4 volleys at you, and you soak all your heals just to survive the assault. Leaving me 3 to 4 seconds of CRF3 to go dump into someone else and send them to the respawn point. I tank better than you do, which means an Escort can throw more heals, more safely than your carrier.
Clutter up the screen with pets? I can do that in you guessed it an MVAM, Just let me put two mine launchers on, a dispersal pattern in one of my lt spots, and some scorpion fighters. Couple that with my pets, and hm maybe I should buy an AMS to TRIBBLE people over big time... and there you go, I just out did you there, by still doing all the above while cluttering a screen at the same time. Now I won't do this, because while I am a TRIBBLE, I'm not a Douche but I could.
I could also do this in a Recon.
Now? I'm not feeling so nice.
Huh, I just rescanned the build. I thought i saw epts in there but hey, it's not.
PS: Can my bop haz heals?
Sure /APD and Transfer shield strength 1 buffs.
No
10characterlimitisinfuratingRAEG!
Doesnt' sound like it with the last few posts i've seen. Best end this thread whilst people are still being sort of civil to you.
I dont know if its your choice of words that make you sound arrogant or you just being arrogant full stop. Either way, your not making friends. All you'll do is paint an even bigger bullseye on your ship for all the pvp'ers out there and boy will you get some "hard" data.
Yes, it does. I was basically saying "even Mav can err, so check everything and think for yourself" and you somehow understood "mav errs all the time".
We just need to remember folks like this when they push for major changes to the way an MMO is played.
Now, if only someone with a tac escort could offer me the chance...
Drown it?
I think the issue lies in the fact that such mindsets are more common place than common sense and STO seems to have an abundance to the point of over-crowding.
I haven't all but stopped playing PvP (or STO for that matter as a whole) becuase I find the PvP crowd unfun. I love the PvP crowd. The ones I know and recognize tend to be more than challenging and fighting with or against them is fun.
I merely have gotten tired of all the children running around screaming, bent on thier own ego-centric desires in belief that said desires should exist just becuase they say so.
Its the same reason I do not go to Chuckie Cheese.
But how is a ship that has mostly heals a "1v1 build"?
The olde pvp'ers crowd are going to Chuckie Cheese's to celebrate Cryptic's 6th season of "pvp is very important to us, please hold!"
Sadly, we're going to have to throw your invitation out because of this inflamatory statement.
S'all right. I'm taking him to Fast Lane instead. ya'll have fun with the rodent and snot filled children. We'll enjoy, adult beverages and women wearing short shorts and form fitting clothes.
Those women have sexy adams' apples.
Some people have this interesting notion that simply surviving is a win. It's not. Someone has to die.
If it wasn't for the over powered, poorly balanced pets, this build couldn't stand. I wouldn't build an entire ship around poor mechanics but that's me.
I'll toy with him again after my workout and after I fix a buddy's computer. Soccer Strikes Again...
1v1 still means nothing however. The game isn't 1v1. It's 5v5 or more (if in a private challenge)
Oh btw, jsimons right. I'm not very good at this game
Saturday "night" 7:30 pm EST is sunday 01:30 AM German time. I am over 35, I need my sleep.
Of course.
No. Both of our builds are viable if we cannot destroy each other's ship in ten minutes of fighting. If I blow you up, that means your build must be flawed.
I believe the game is set up so that two ships built and operated at a competent level will not be able to destroy each other. If one of the two is destroyed, it was not built and/or operated competently.
Steve Hale, would you answer that question, please?
pft 1:30 Am is easy to stay up to. I often stay up till 2am, especially on the weekends.
Well, you are a sleep deprivation hero. I am not.