Tangentally related to your comment about ship layouts, I remember seeing something about you wanting to change your ship loadout after the last couple of big pvps. If you're interested shoot me a tell and I'll see what I can do to help
Useless ? You're doing it wrong. I'll go fetch my Recon, we can go into the ques, and I can make your ship look sorry on overall damage and kill counts. PSW3 is far from useless. It does 13k on average when a target has lost it's shields.
In theory, yes. But in practice, for that to help, I have to be both within 3 km range when the shields are down and they must remain down between me seeing it and hitting the button. Now, ask yourself, when your shields are completely down, how long do they stay down?
[,,,]
And I see you -still- aren't mounting beam arrays?
Correct. The reason is rather simple: The slow turn rate of the Tolerance (especially with the new, more conventional power settting) leads to people getting into the front and back arcs quite often, which greatly reduces effective DPS. I need one beam fore and one aft to take advantage of the ship's innate target subsystems ability, but apart from that, turrets simply allow a better sustained dps.
[...] Seriously? You can't even drop a facing with it when you've hit me with it. You don't have the consoles for it. FAW is a much better choice here especially in an arena as it enables you to put decent pressure on several targets. It also increases Rate of fire which is mandatory for Tetryon users to get the most out of the rather meh proc.
EPS Flow regulator literally does nothing other than recover your energy after a full impulsing anymore. There is litterally nien, cero, zero, nada, no reason to ever mount one on any ship ever. [...]
I believe the recovery rate of the weapon power levels has improved by installing it. But would your statement mean that the EPS skill doesn't help, either?
Polarize is not really going to help you all that much unless you are trying to run like a scared lil girl (and even then, you are in a Carrier), you are better off with either a second hazards or second TB.
I am in Ker'rat often. Having a copy of PH is useful there, and with the two lab scientists, I only need one ST.
Also stop with the 3x Teams. You are killing your cooldown cycles, and durability as a direct result.
Well, before I had 4 teams, so let's just say I am improving. XD
The build is actually worse now some how than when you started. [,...]
Long enough if you aren't a total sloth on the buttons. Also if you ran FAW or played against people that didnt' suck there'd be a good chance you'd also score an incidental kill, against someone you guys weren't directly focusing on. Go click the link of that match I linked, that was in a Recon (which has only one tac console in the way of advantage... but doesn't have pets to your ship) with PSW3, TBR2, and VM1. That match only lasted a little less than 13 minutes. Your match I could tell just by looking at the #s lasted for over half an hour. Notice how my #s are comparable to what you did in 30 minutes? You can thank PSW3, TBR2, FAW, 6 Beams and properly managed tac captain buffs for that.
They hump your backside because your ship is uber squishy and goes down like a cheap hooker in Bangkok. If you could actually tank without blowing your full load of heals, people wouldn't shoot you as often.
Also, if you -still- are having issues with people humping your ship, run TBR3 and push them away.
the EPS skill helps, the console does not. EPS skill protects you from Tykens, gives a lil resistance against polaron procs, and plas leech. It also, increases your speed that energy recovers when you switch buttons. It also, helps all energy recovery where as the console? See below.
The EPS console makes "transfer rate" better.. but it literally does not work vs beam overload. I don't even bother with an EPS in Thunders escort because the -50 power bounces back almost instantly if I don't smash the space bar directly after firing an overload. This actually raises my over all dps anyway since, even with a 4DHC pattern you'd have moments where your power drain starts to signficantly affect dps.
The console literally does not help with weapon power drain from firing weapons.
Yes you only need one Sci team, however with three different Team skills it doesn't matter anyway because inevitably against people that don't suck (and no offense to the 'rat crowd but most of them are there for a reason.. it's because they aren't Premade Grade and fear quieng against pvpers) you will eat a team that's not ST.
You put Turrets on for one. Turrets don't do DPS unless it's part of a Cannon Rapid Fire alpha strike. Which carriers can't do anyway. You have three team skills. but now you have a couple dev lab doffs to knock ST down to it's global so that's equivalent to what you had before. Also Cannons (and this includes turrets) lose tons of DPS output at ranges of 5km and farther. Beams do more DPS anyway than a turret so even without factoring in medium range to long range shooting (which should be your objective anyway, unless you are popping TBR and or PSW) you still will do more dps with beams in a match. You seriously lose over 50 percent of DPS from Cannons and more as the weapon ranges go out from 6km to 10km.
Polarize isn't going to help you against full bore teams. It doesn't save you from Gravity well, or warp plasma, it doesn't save you from the many chroniton procs, nor does it help vs Target Engines. It's an escort, tac vorcha, and sci ship skill only. Carriers are so unagile that really to stay on a target I don't even have to use tractor beam. It's just there for formality sake to reduce defense scores when the GWs are off.
Also seriously, ditch that Detection Grid. It's doing NOTHING for you. You get more service for detection out of an aux battery and as I stated before the only reason you are seeing people is because they are getting too close to you without their auxes set to a higher setting. Not because you have the grid. I gaurantee you'll never see my Vorcha coming when you have the grid up.
Move the Borg there, Ditch the EPS console, and put in two SIF Generators. You'll be harder to crack, your heals will be better etc.
Well, I've been experimenting with 2x BA and 4x Turrets lately too. However I don't really understand what you're trying to achieve here. You have two BA and couple it with Beam Overload, that alone is questionable, however you are limited to BO2. So you have a huge spike in energy drain, a from my experience 50/50 hit-chance and mediocre damage - at best. I really do not understand why you keep this Beam Overload. I kinda could when you were using Dual Beams, but please.... with Arrays? Personally I was trying to use CRF 1 there with the 4 Turrets, then trying around SCV1, but all of these solutions are somewhat bleh.
I investigated CRF1, too. But over the long run, this only increases turret damage by 7.5% (30 second cooldown plus 10 second duration, and 30% increase), so, just as you say, it is indeed "somewhat bleh".
I guess Mav is right with his suggestion about using 6x Arrays, even I usually get back to my original 6x BA layout.
Maybe he is, or maybe not. Consider this: If I can only bear a broadside 66% of the time (which is a rather optimistic guess, IMO), this drops the average number of beams to shoot to 3.75, if each BA does 750 dps, that makes it roughly 2800 dps from the beams. Using 4 turrets and 2 beam I will always have at least something like 4*550+750= 2950 dps. So it does not really make a difference, and with this setup.I should do a little more dps over time.
More stuff to come: You are using three "Team" skills, even while you basicly can only use two in combination.
But in different situations. I combine TT and ST when the hull is fine and switch to either TT+ET or ST+ET when not, depending on overall state of the shields. It gives me one more option to choose from.
With your two Dev Lab Scientist DOffs, you basicly got these two Team skills covered with your ST2. I am using this myself with ST3 and I barely touch TT1, let alone getting the idea of putting ET1 in my already limited to hell Engineering slots. Actually I am more and more thinking about just ditching the TT completely.
How would you counter an alpha strike then?
I don't know if Polarize Hull is really useful on a Carrier. Myself I never missed it a single time on the Atrox. You could either put another Tractor Beam instead, maybe even Scramble Sensors or choose HE1 instead. Another note on this matter: Your PH clashes with HE, so if you're going to PH yourself, you have one of your main hull heal for your team on CD. Is that really worth it?
Well, Borg can really go on your nerves with their tractor beams. Remember, this build is both for PvP and PvE.
I'd also try to switch HE3 with ST3, especially with those DOffs ST3 is a real joy to use. I couldn't believe it myself, but ST3 is a real noticable improvement over ST2, especially with those mentioned DOffs.
I have been thinking about that, too, but I feel more comfortable with a stronger hull heal right now. (also, consider the tribble patch notes about transphasic torpedos)
I have to disagree with PSW3 being "useless", it is not. However it is definatly less convenient to use than lets say on your typical Sci Ship. A well timed PSW3 can cause critical damage on your enemy.
The same is true for a well-timed BO2. The question is, what is if the timing is not well, because there just isn't the opportunity? Which happened to me quite often during the tests.
However this "well timed" is hard to achieve with a skill that is limited on a 3km radius with a ship which turns like a brick. You also need to be trained into PSW to make it usefull. Of course if your Particle(?) Generators are unskilled, it loses most of its punch - just like virtually every skill out there.
After all I'd rather put TBR3 in there, haven't done so yet because it would also clash with my 2xTB1 copies.
Hm. So you basically took PSW3 just to fill the slow somehow, and you hope that some time during the ecnounter, you're lucky enough to use it meaningfully?
Your console layout is a bit awkward too. While I do understand your more damaged oriented playstyle for keeping those two Energy Damage consoles down there, I do not understand the rest. Why not a single SIF console to support your ASIF and HE? Why not a single Shield Emitter to support your ST and TSS? I know Mav said the latter ones suck, however I think having one or two can really make a difference.
I have tested them in the past... the difference isn't all that high, and I rather like to have shield capacity. The only real options for changing the console layout would have been to remove the TDF and/or the EPS flow regulator, everything else is just required from my POV.
The more and more I think about it, the more I guess you're trying to do something with the Atrox which more or less doesn't work: Being *effectively* offensive in terms of DPS.
That's true, and it may well be the case that it isn't possible. But that won't stop me from trying.
Correct. The reason is rather simple: The slow turn rate of the Tolerance (especially with the new, more conventional power settting) leads to people getting into the front and back arcs quite often, which greatly reduces effective DPS. I need one beam fore and one aft to take advantage of the ship's innate target subsystems ability, but apart from that, turrets simply allow a better sustained dps.
[snip]
I believe the recovery rate of the weapon power levels has improved by installing it. But would your statement mean that the EPS skill doesn't help, either?
[snip]
Well, before I had 4 teams, so let's just say I am improving. XD
But you are gimping the overall damaging. If you mix up your already limited weapon slots, you won't get any real benefit from any skill. Using Canon skills will only work for 2/3 of your weapons, using FAW will only work for 1/3. That BO2 with Beam Arrays simply is a joke. I tried this myself over and over again from this games release - it wasn't really worth it back then and it definatly ain't worth it back now.
I have been experimenting with either 2xBA/4xTur against 6xBA since two weeks and most of the time the 6xBA variant works just better. Of course due to the higher firing rate of those turrets the Tetryon proc is more effective - but since it's a joke ATM anyways, it doesn't matter.
EPS helps your energy recovery, so that major spike on weapons power after BO will be recovered faster. Other than that it mainly helps when switching power levels, which I do quite often in the Atrox, and of course after dropping out of full impulse.
Well, you got your ST buffed with those DOffs, so practically you got:
2xST, 1x TT, 1x ET - you are back to four Team skills again and even gimping your DOff setup by making it worthless.
I really do not misjudge "alternative" builds or playstyles, but there are so many flaws or weird things going on, I can only wonder why. Why after so many people gave you so many detailed tips and hints on how and what to improve.
But you are gimping the overall damaging. If you mix up your already limited weapon slots, you won't get any real benefit from any skill. Using Canon skills will only work for 2/3 of your weapons, using FAW will only work for 1/3. That BO2 with Beam Arrays simply is a joke. I tried this myself over and over again from this games release - it wasn't really worth it back then and it definatly ain't worth it back now.
I have been experimenting with either 2xBA/4xTur against 6xBA since two weeks and most of the time the 6xBA variant works just better. Of course due to the higher firing rate of those turrets the Tetryon proc is more effective - but since it's a joke ATM anyways, it doesn't matter.
EPS helps your energy recovery, so that major spike on weapons power after BO will be recovered faster. Other than that it mainly helps when switching power levels, which I do quite often in the Atrox, and of course after dropping out of full impulse.
Well, you got your ST buffed with those DOffs, so practically you got:
2xST, 1x TT, 1x ET - you are back to four Team skills again and even gimping your DOff setup by making it worthless.
I really do not misjudge "alternative" builds or playstyles, but there are so many flaws or weird things going on, I can only wonder why. Why after so many people gave you so many detailed tips and hints on how and what to improve.
But in different situations. I combine TT and ST when the hull is fine and switch to either TT+ET or ST+ET when not, depending on overall state of the shields. It gives me one more option to choose from.
But that does not work. Using ST puts TT on global cooldown, which lasts 15 secs. So within those 15 secs, you'll usually end up with either using another ST or try to use TT - which renders your DOff layout pointless. Because your bascily 2xST doesn't work since it always clashes with TT.
http://postimage.org/image/ye1ypokqd/full/ Here's that match for you again. I was probably done with it in 1/3 the time you were finished with yours and mine's not a fluke, I have many many matches of this thing doing what it does best which is murdering the face off people. This is again a Recon. It has access to most of the same offensive powers your carrier has. I only have 1 more tac console, which gives me +7 percent energy dps overall compared to your ship.
You put me in a super long match in my recon and I could probably quadruple that score easy.
But you are gimping the overall damaging. If you mix up your already limited weapon slots, you won't get any real benefit from any skill. Using Canon skills will only work for 2/3 of your weapons, using FAW will only work for 1/3.
Hence BO2, because I get the same out of it, regardless of the exact weapon composition.
Hence BO2, because I get the same out of it, regardless of the exact weapon composition.
No you don't. You are completely hosing your damage out put and don't even realize it, and your justifying it because people like to shoot you on your backside.
And you refuse to realize, that the reason they keep shooting you is because it's ludicrously easy to down your shields in the first place.
I should not be able to on my first pass, barring extreme luck, be able to not only down your facings on my first run through you, but vape 40-60 percent of your hull in the process. This is exactly why people get behind you and unload repeatedly. Also, turret DPS is jack and TRIBBLE, against anything but a bop or perhaps a shuttle you won't even tickle someone's shields in the first place. If I got lucky on a hot run on you you'd be dead completely on my first pass with the way your ship is setup right now (and with the way it was before). As it stands, you'd be dead against any pair of escorts on my skill level, or better before you can say "Green Diaper!"
No you don't. You are completely hosing your damage out put and don't even realize it, and your justifying it because people like to shoot you on your backside.
Not only th backside. Approaching the opponent, I could only use 3 beams. having passed by the enemy and trying to turn, I only get to shoot with three beams. It happens quite often with such a low turn rate ship. This isn't even a cruiser, it turns so much slower.
I should not be able to on my first pass, barring extreme luck, be able to not only down your facings on my first run through you, but vape 40-60 percent of your hull in the process. This is exactly why people get behind you and unload repeatedly. Also, turret DPS is jack and TRIBBLE, against anything but a bop or perhaps a shuttle you won't even tickle someone's shields in the first place. If I got lucky on a hot run on you you'd be dead completely on my first pass with the way your ship is setup right now (and with the way it was before). As it stands, you'd be dead against any pair of escorts on my skill level, or better before you can say "Green Diaper!"
Not only th backside. Approaching the opponent, I could only use 3 beams. having passed by the enemy and trying to turn, I only get to shoot with three beams. It happens quite often with such a low turn rate ship. This isn't even a cruiser, it turns so much slower.
Please, show me in a fight. ^^
Then don't approach head on. Beams have a 250 degree arc. All you have to do to come in on a broadside against a team is aim your ship to the right or left upon entry at like a 5 to 10 degree angle from your spawn and fly straight ahead. Instant Broadside, now cut engine power to half and keep circling around. With FAW cycling, you'll be broad siding -someone- at all times, if not multiple targets at the same DPS as the first guy you are wailing on.
Also again approaching targets, turrets (even if you ran 6 turrets) will do less damage at 9km than 3 beams will. Due to cannon inaccuracy, and range depreciation.
You already got the preview. Just times what I did to you on my first pass X2.2. And you get Respawn. I'm not some super genius ebil fluke hax player. The only difference really between myself and the other Premade Quality Escort players out there is 1 I post on the forums, with in depth details of my builds, and of how to improve others, and 2, I prefer abit more CC in my DPS. (hence why I fly Mvam). 3, I also roll a Recon, and roll Cruisers frequently and sporadically I fly a Karfi. You were at 60 percent, to 40 percent hull almost -every time- I came in on you. me + Kedric or me +naz, or me + damian here would = one dead you, it's simple math really. You had trouble even staying at 40 percent when I came in on you with my straight up anti carrier/cruiser CC setup with GW1 now simply times that by 2.2 and you are very very very dead.
Why 2.2 instead of just a 2? because they have access to a LTCmdr Tac slot which -will- give them superior dps on a lead in if they are flying properly (and most of the time they do)
[...]
you know....the "im right and all of you just don't understand even tho i get my *** handed to me every match" type....[...]
I know this must be hard to accept for you, but I simply don't "get my...". See, I am not talking out of theory. I observe it in PUG matches. Hence I'd love to test in 1v1 against vet players, because if what you say is true, the only real way to find that out is by doing just that.
Not only th backside. Approaching the opponent, I could only use 3 beams. having passed by the enemy and trying to turn, I only get to shoot with three beams. It happens quite often with such a low turn rate ship. This isn't even a cruiser, it turns so much slower.
Don't approach right in front then. -_-
One of the first things you learn when commanding any Cruiser would be getting your broadside right and yes, it can be done with an Atrox. Maybe you don't know it, but back in the day the Galaxy had the same turnrate the Atrox has nowadays.
Those Turrets are more or less worthless. Of course you hit and you deal damage - but those hits are so weak, it doesn't matter anyways. Simple as is. I even was foolish enough to buy some [Acc]x3 Turrets and it still wasn't good enough. Your Atrox simply isn't meant to be a one man show, if people are constantly on your back, get your teammates to help you or try to get rid of that annoying Escort. However mounting Turrets, even 6x Turrets on your ship won't help you against that Escort.
I know this must be hard to accept for you, but I simply don't "get my...". See, I am not talking out of theory. I observe it in PUG matches. Hence I'd love to test in 1v1 against vet players, because if what you say is true, the only real way to find that out is by doing just that.
1v1 does not work in this game unless you mirror captains and ships, as i've stated for you in this thread days ago.
what works 1v1 does not work in team play, as ive stated before in this thread for you.
why do you listen to nothing?
what is it about your brain that does not accept best practices as stated from the vet players in your thread!
I know this must be hard to accept for you, but I simply don't "get my...". See, I am not talking out of theory. I observe it in PUG matches. Hence I'd love to test in 1v1 against vet players, because if what you say is true, the only real way to find that out is by doing just that.
1v1 in *any* MMO is a very questionable thing. PvP in MMOs are meant to be team games, where every player and class gets to fill some sort of role.
PUG matches are also hard to judge, my Atrox quite rules in most PUG matches, then I encounter some premades and it just sucks. Hell in some PUGs even in full healing mode I can kill a few others with ease - that doesn't make this thing a killer.:rolleyes:
But several things have changed since then, especially the shield type and the power setting. So show me again.
Without EPTS it won't really change anything. Without proper beams your dps won't do anything more to me than you did before. (actually your damage will be lower since you have just a couple of beams fore and aft which staggers their firing cycle which means you beam overload can be stuck in a form of activation purgatory for 1 to 2 firing cycles)
Without a proper CC in the cmdr slot (or at least photonic officer 3 instead of CC) you still won't slow me down.
All you can do is hope you get lucky with pet procs and you saw how that worked out for you last time. Not too well. I'm mid workout right now besides, and if I can snag up another scort captain I'll show you just how boned your ship would be in a pug environment against people that don't suck.
I have to ask, what do you think I would have to gain by misleading you on build advice seriously? Victory? I have a 90 percent win loss ratio anyway in arena ques. I'm actually bored of beating people so easily and soundly that I don't even have to think or try anymore. It's actually hurting my own timing and skill level playing against people that can't even be bothered to build proper ships, because again it requires little effort to win. I don't want to backslide and get worse at the game. I want to do the opposite. I want people to enjoy playing pvp. And I know they don't by me just facerolling them, because it's obvious that I'm doing so if they ever see me actually put some effort into it. I know people in general don't like to lose. I would like to see this community grow, but it can't as long as people fly horrible builds and get frustrated and say "well I can beat these guys that means the guys that beat me are just hax!". It can't as long as pve encourages failboat builds by being Autowin just by showing up. I want to enjoy playing pvp for more than just "I'm hanging out with my friends" again. I want to have that rush of victory again, and frankly I just don't get that now.
At the very least I can try to alleviate the problem by sharing my accumulated knowledge. (as someone that's been a part of 4 different premades most of which within my own original fleet that I'm -still- with over the last two years I've learned alot of tricks of the various trades)
Am all for this empirics thingie. Someone please provide some hard data to your prognosis.
I have to ask, what do you think I would have to gain by misleading you on build advice seriously?
I am not even remotely consider that anyone here might post to mislead anyone. But that doesn't mean that everything anyone here sais is applicable for something few people do, such as a tactical carrier. See, you for example are a big fan of regenerative shields, while others prefer high cap ones or resilient ones. That does not mean that either of the two sides is wrong, it could just be that looking from a different perspective, you get a different point of view.
[...]It's actually hurting my own timing and skill level playing against people that can't even be bothered to build proper ships, because again it requires little effort to win.
It works well to demonstrate something, which is what this was about.
No it really doesn't.
All 1v1 is for is DPS testing, combat log parsing, and calling out to the other guy on vent and asking him just how debilitating was that debuff you just threw.
Your ship is already demonstrated to be vastly inferior to my Escort in terms of tanking (which should be just out right impossible, especially given how aggressive my sci slots are) in a 1v1... where there's a whole lot less DPS and CC flying around.
It's also worse on DPS. It's worse on CC. So what's it good for? Cluttering up the screen with pets? That only lasts as long as you aren't in the respawn zone.
Think about that for a second. An Escort is better at Crowd Control, than your Carrier is. That's like revoke your gamer card territory. It's also better at Tanking, and Throwing Down Damage.
So even if 1v1 were to prove anything, it should have proven that your ship needs a massive overhaul. Not a minor tweak, but a total rebuild from the ground up. Coincidentally there's someone in this very thread that runs a build that is almost exactly what you are trying to accomplish in a different ship (however said ship really isn't all that different in the Offense department when all is said and done so you could easily replicate it), said person also beat you 7- and 0 while you were in a rather inept Defense Build while in his Escort. Said person has also broken down Math of weapons for you, and explained why various weapon choices are good and some are utterly bad for your ship.
And you are -still- debating that person rather than think "hey maybe I should try his build for a while". I'm not a patient person, so I'm starting to run a little thin here on it, and am about maybe 3 posts away from washing my hands of this thread and leaving you to drown in the deep waters of the pvp ques.
Am all for this empirics thingie. Someone please provide some hard data to your prognosis.
What does hard data change here? You got ET1, one of basicly four Team powers. It doesn't make sense. Switch it out for EPtS1 which provides:
- Boost in shield power
- Boost in shield resistence
- Repairs shields which are disabled
- Regens damaged shields
It also does not clash with your other three team abilities. What kind of hard data do you need? Either keep your ET and change your DOff layout - which would hardly make any sense, really - or ditch the ET and just get that EPtS. There is no need for hard data. A build with four Team powers just wastes slot. Concentrate on one thing: Either ET or ST or TT. But don't do ET and ST and TT. especially combined with one of those DOff buffed.....:eek:
Mav is right after all: He suggests a build which obviously works and instead of just give it a try and play it for a few days, all you want is prove or hard data. While everything I see is you as someone who obviosuly tries to be the renegade and come in with a rather alternative build for the Atrox which he tries to get working. Now you radically changed it - but for the worse. I don't understand just what you are trying to achieve here.
What does hard data change here? You got ET1, one of basicly four Team powers. It doesn't make sense. Switch it out for EPtS1 which provides:
- Boost in shield power
- Boost in shield resistence
- Repairs shields which are disabled
- Regens damaged shields
It also does not clash with your other three team abilities. What kind of hard data do you need? Either keep your ET and change your DOff layout - which would hardly make any sense, really - or ditch the ET and just get that EPtS. There is no need for hard data. A build with four Team powers just wastes slot. Concentrate on one thing: Either ET or ST or TT. But don't do ET and ST and TT. especially combined with one of those DOff buffed.....:eek:
IIRC EPTS1 between it's full shield power boosting and native resistance gives your shields a roughly 27 percent or so damage resistance. Shields (non Resilient/Maco) stop 90 percent of damage to your hull. Anything that keeps them up longer is better than something that doesn't do so. Resilient shields /Maco furthermore reduce that damage by 50 percent making it an effective fifty percent hull resist console for free as long as the shield is still standing. Making it even more imperative to keeping the shields up.
EPTS also gives what a 2k heal or so to shields?
ET1 heals what... 5k hull at most? And... woo clears a systems knock of... which batteries -and- an EPTX system does anyway.
Comments
In theory, yes. But in practice, for that to help, I have to be both within 3 km range when the shields are down and they must remain down between me seeing it and hitting the button. Now, ask yourself, when your shields are completely down, how long do they stay down?
Correct. The reason is rather simple: The slow turn rate of the Tolerance (especially with the new, more conventional power settting) leads to people getting into the front and back arcs quite often, which greatly reduces effective DPS. I need one beam fore and one aft to take advantage of the ship's innate target subsystems ability, but apart from that, turrets simply allow a better sustained dps.
I believe the recovery rate of the weapon power levels has improved by installing it. But would your statement mean that the EPS skill doesn't help, either?
I am in Ker'rat often. Having a copy of PH is useful there, and with the two lab scientists, I only need one ST.
Well, before I had 4 teams, so let's just say I am improving. XD
How so?
somebody stop this guy, he's driving off a cliff.
based on your attitude in this thread you are anything but tolerant. therefore......
lol, im just gonna stop there, keep doing it, its like you are referring to your ship, as you, in 3rd person.
it just adds that right zing to the recipe of your horrible demise.
logging in now....where can i hunt this fool?
They hump your backside because your ship is uber squishy and goes down like a cheap hooker in Bangkok. If you could actually tank without blowing your full load of heals, people wouldn't shoot you as often.
Also, if you -still- are having issues with people humping your ship, run TBR3 and push them away.
the EPS skill helps, the console does not. EPS skill protects you from Tykens, gives a lil resistance against polaron procs, and plas leech. It also, increases your speed that energy recovers when you switch buttons. It also, helps all energy recovery where as the console? See below.
The EPS console makes "transfer rate" better.. but it literally does not work vs beam overload. I don't even bother with an EPS in Thunders escort because the -50 power bounces back almost instantly if I don't smash the space bar directly after firing an overload. This actually raises my over all dps anyway since, even with a 4DHC pattern you'd have moments where your power drain starts to signficantly affect dps.
The console literally does not help with weapon power drain from firing weapons.
Yes you only need one Sci team, however with three different Team skills it doesn't matter anyway because inevitably against people that don't suck (and no offense to the 'rat crowd but most of them are there for a reason.. it's because they aren't Premade Grade and fear quieng against pvpers) you will eat a team that's not ST.
You put Turrets on for one. Turrets don't do DPS unless it's part of a Cannon Rapid Fire alpha strike. Which carriers can't do anyway. You have three team skills. but now you have a couple dev lab doffs to knock ST down to it's global so that's equivalent to what you had before. Also Cannons (and this includes turrets) lose tons of DPS output at ranges of 5km and farther. Beams do more DPS anyway than a turret so even without factoring in medium range to long range shooting (which should be your objective anyway, unless you are popping TBR and or PSW) you still will do more dps with beams in a match. You seriously lose over 50 percent of DPS from Cannons and more as the weapon ranges go out from 6km to 10km.
Polarize isn't going to help you against full bore teams. It doesn't save you from Gravity well, or warp plasma, it doesn't save you from the many chroniton procs, nor does it help vs Target Engines. It's an escort, tac vorcha, and sci ship skill only. Carriers are so unagile that really to stay on a target I don't even have to use tractor beam. It's just there for formality sake to reduce defense scores when the GWs are off.
Also seriously, ditch that Detection Grid. It's doing NOTHING for you. You get more service for detection out of an aux battery and as I stated before the only reason you are seeing people is because they are getting too close to you without their auxes set to a higher setting. Not because you have the grid. I gaurantee you'll never see my Vorcha coming when you have the grid up.
Move the Borg there, Ditch the EPS console, and put in two SIF Generators. You'll be harder to crack, your heals will be better etc.
you just dont understand what "the tolerance" is here to do!
"the tolerance" is here to kick ***, run away, and take names. and then "the tolerance" will meet you back at the respawn point!
some people, if you only understood....its "the tolerance"!
I investigated CRF1, too. But over the long run, this only increases turret damage by 7.5% (30 second cooldown plus 10 second duration, and 30% increase), so, just as you say, it is indeed "somewhat bleh".
Maybe he is, or maybe not. Consider this: If I can only bear a broadside 66% of the time (which is a rather optimistic guess, IMO), this drops the average number of beams to shoot to 3.75, if each BA does 750 dps, that makes it roughly 2800 dps from the beams. Using 4 turrets and 2 beam I will always have at least something like 4*550+750= 2950 dps. So it does not really make a difference, and with this setup.I should do a little more dps over time.
But in different situations. I combine TT and ST when the hull is fine and switch to either TT+ET or ST+ET when not, depending on overall state of the shields. It gives me one more option to choose from.
How would you counter an alpha strike then?
Well, Borg can really go on your nerves with their tractor beams. Remember, this build is both for PvP and PvE.
I have been thinking about that, too, but I feel more comfortable with a stronger hull heal right now. (also, consider the tribble patch notes about transphasic torpedos)
The same is true for a well-timed BO2. The question is, what is if the timing is not well, because there just isn't the opportunity? Which happened to me quite often during the tests.
Hm. So you basically took PSW3 just to fill the slow somehow, and you hope that some time during the ecnounter, you're lucky enough to use it meaningfully?
I have tested them in the past... the difference isn't all that high, and I rather like to have shield capacity. The only real options for changing the console layout would have been to remove the TDF and/or the EPS flow regulator, everything else is just required from my POV.
That's true, and it may well be the case that it isn't possible. But that won't stop me from trying.
But you are gimping the overall damaging. If you mix up your already limited weapon slots, you won't get any real benefit from any skill. Using Canon skills will only work for 2/3 of your weapons, using FAW will only work for 1/3. That BO2 with Beam Arrays simply is a joke. I tried this myself over and over again from this games release - it wasn't really worth it back then and it definatly ain't worth it back now.
I have been experimenting with either 2xBA/4xTur against 6xBA since two weeks and most of the time the 6xBA variant works just better. Of course due to the higher firing rate of those turrets the Tetryon proc is more effective - but since it's a joke ATM anyways, it doesn't matter.
EPS helps your energy recovery, so that major spike on weapons power after BO will be recovered faster. Other than that it mainly helps when switching power levels, which I do quite often in the Atrox, and of course after dropping out of full impulse.
Well, you got your ST buffed with those DOffs, so practically you got:
2xST, 1x TT, 1x ET - you are back to four Team skills again and even gimping your DOff setup by making it worthless.
I really do not misjudge "alternative" builds or playstyles, but there are so many flaws or weird things going on, I can only wonder why. Why after so many people gave you so many detailed tips and hints on how and what to improve.
this isn't just any old tac carrier tho....
its "the tolerance"!
if only people understood.....
But that does not work. Using ST puts TT on global cooldown, which lasts 15 secs. So within those 15 secs, you'll usually end up with either using another ST or try to use TT - which renders your DOff layout pointless. Because your bascily 2xST doesn't work since it always clashes with TT.
You put me in a super long match in my recon and I could probably quadruple that score easy.
If this thread anooys you so much, just keep out of it. That'll help, really.
Hence BO2, because I get the same out of it, regardless of the exact weapon composition.
No you don't. You are completely hosing your damage out put and don't even realize it, and your justifying it because people like to shoot you on your backside.
And you refuse to realize, that the reason they keep shooting you is because it's ludicrously easy to down your shields in the first place.
I should not be able to on my first pass, barring extreme luck, be able to not only down your facings on my first run through you, but vape 40-60 percent of your hull in the process. This is exactly why people get behind you and unload repeatedly. Also, turret DPS is jack and TRIBBLE, against anything but a bop or perhaps a shuttle you won't even tickle someone's shields in the first place. If I got lucky on a hot run on you you'd be dead completely on my first pass with the way your ship is setup right now (and with the way it was before). As it stands, you'd be dead against any pair of escorts on my skill level, or better before you can say "Green Diaper!"
keep at it, you are like the funniest thing in STO pvp right now!
and sorry, once im in a thread i like to stick with it. and players like you just tend to draw my attention.
you know....the "im right and all of you just don't understand even tho i get my *** handed to me every match" type....
but hey....its "the tolerance"!
Not only th backside. Approaching the opponent, I could only use 3 beams. having passed by the enemy and trying to turn, I only get to shoot with three beams. It happens quite often with such a low turn rate ship. This isn't even a cruiser, it turns so much slower.
Please, show me in a fight. ^^
Then don't approach head on. Beams have a 250 degree arc. All you have to do to come in on a broadside against a team is aim your ship to the right or left upon entry at like a 5 to 10 degree angle from your spawn and fly straight ahead. Instant Broadside, now cut engine power to half and keep circling around. With FAW cycling, you'll be broad siding -someone- at all times, if not multiple targets at the same DPS as the first guy you are wailing on.
Also again approaching targets, turrets (even if you ran 6 turrets) will do less damage at 9km than 3 beams will. Due to cannon inaccuracy, and range depreciation.
You already got the preview. Just times what I did to you on my first pass X2.2. And you get Respawn. I'm not some super genius ebil fluke hax player. The only difference really between myself and the other Premade Quality Escort players out there is 1 I post on the forums, with in depth details of my builds, and of how to improve others, and 2, I prefer abit more CC in my DPS. (hence why I fly Mvam). 3, I also roll a Recon, and roll Cruisers frequently and sporadically I fly a Karfi. You were at 60 percent, to 40 percent hull almost -every time- I came in on you. me + Kedric or me +naz, or me + damian here would = one dead you, it's simple math really. You had trouble even staying at 40 percent when I came in on you with my straight up anti carrier/cruiser CC setup with GW1 now simply times that by 2.2 and you are very very very dead.
Why 2.2 instead of just a 2? because they have access to a LTCmdr Tac slot which -will- give them superior dps on a lead in if they are flying properly (and most of the time they do)
I know this must be hard to accept for you, but I simply don't "get my...". See, I am not talking out of theory. I observe it in PUG matches. Hence I'd love to test in 1v1 against vet players, because if what you say is true, the only real way to find that out is by doing just that.
But several things have changed since then, especially the shield type and the power setting. So show me again.
Don't approach right in front then. -_-
One of the first things you learn when commanding any Cruiser would be getting your broadside right and yes, it can be done with an Atrox. Maybe you don't know it, but back in the day the Galaxy had the same turnrate the Atrox has nowadays.
Those Turrets are more or less worthless. Of course you hit and you deal damage - but those hits are so weak, it doesn't matter anyways. Simple as is. I even was foolish enough to buy some [Acc]x3 Turrets and it still wasn't good enough. Your Atrox simply isn't meant to be a one man show, if people are constantly on your back, get your teammates to help you or try to get rid of that annoying Escort. However mounting Turrets, even 6x Turrets on your ship won't help you against that Escort.
1v1 does not work in this game unless you mirror captains and ships, as i've stated for you in this thread days ago.
what works 1v1 does not work in team play, as ive stated before in this thread for you.
why do you listen to nothing?
what is it about your brain that does not accept best practices as stated from the vet players in your thread!
1v1 in *any* MMO is a very questionable thing. PvP in MMOs are meant to be team games, where every player and class gets to fill some sort of role.
PUG matches are also hard to judge, my Atrox quite rules in most PUG matches, then I encounter some premades and it just sucks. Hell in some PUGs even in full healing mode I can kill a few others with ease - that doesn't make this thing a killer.:rolleyes:
Without EPTS it won't really change anything. Without proper beams your dps won't do anything more to me than you did before. (actually your damage will be lower since you have just a couple of beams fore and aft which staggers their firing cycle which means you beam overload can be stuck in a form of activation purgatory for 1 to 2 firing cycles)
Without a proper CC in the cmdr slot (or at least photonic officer 3 instead of CC) you still won't slow me down.
All you can do is hope you get lucky with pet procs and you saw how that worked out for you last time. Not too well. I'm mid workout right now besides, and if I can snag up another scort captain I'll show you just how boned your ship would be in a pug environment against people that don't suck.
I have to ask, what do you think I would have to gain by misleading you on build advice seriously? Victory? I have a 90 percent win loss ratio anyway in arena ques. I'm actually bored of beating people so easily and soundly that I don't even have to think or try anymore. It's actually hurting my own timing and skill level playing against people that can't even be bothered to build proper ships, because again it requires little effort to win. I don't want to backslide and get worse at the game. I want to do the opposite. I want people to enjoy playing pvp. And I know they don't by me just facerolling them, because it's obvious that I'm doing so if they ever see me actually put some effort into it. I know people in general don't like to lose. I would like to see this community grow, but it can't as long as people fly horrible builds and get frustrated and say "well I can beat these guys that means the guys that beat me are just hax!". It can't as long as pve encourages failboat builds by being Autowin just by showing up. I want to enjoy playing pvp for more than just "I'm hanging out with my friends" again. I want to have that rush of victory again, and frankly I just don't get that now.
At the very least I can try to alleviate the problem by sharing my accumulated knowledge. (as someone that's been a part of 4 different premades most of which within my own original fleet that I'm -still- with over the last two years I've learned alot of tricks of the various trades)
It works well to demonstrate something, which is what this was about.
Am all for this empirics thingie. Someone please provide some hard data to your prognosis.
I am not even remotely consider that anyone here might post to mislead anyone. But that doesn't mean that everything anyone here sais is applicable for something few people do, such as a tactical carrier. See, you for example are a big fan of regenerative shields, while others prefer high cap ones or resilient ones. That does not mean that either of the two sides is wrong, it could just be that looking from a different perspective, you get a different point of view.
I can understand that.
yeah, it demostrates the wrong way to build you ship for team efficiency.
if thats your intent, then.....
omg the lulz....
they just keep coming.
No it really doesn't.
All 1v1 is for is DPS testing, combat log parsing, and calling out to the other guy on vent and asking him just how debilitating was that debuff you just threw.
Your ship is already demonstrated to be vastly inferior to my Escort in terms of tanking (which should be just out right impossible, especially given how aggressive my sci slots are) in a 1v1... where there's a whole lot less DPS and CC flying around.
It's also worse on DPS. It's worse on CC. So what's it good for? Cluttering up the screen with pets? That only lasts as long as you aren't in the respawn zone.
Think about that for a second. An Escort is better at Crowd Control, than your Carrier is. That's like revoke your gamer card territory. It's also better at Tanking, and Throwing Down Damage.
So even if 1v1 were to prove anything, it should have proven that your ship needs a massive overhaul. Not a minor tweak, but a total rebuild from the ground up. Coincidentally there's someone in this very thread that runs a build that is almost exactly what you are trying to accomplish in a different ship (however said ship really isn't all that different in the Offense department when all is said and done so you could easily replicate it), said person also beat you 7- and 0 while you were in a rather inept Defense Build while in his Escort. Said person has also broken down Math of weapons for you, and explained why various weapon choices are good and some are utterly bad for your ship.
And you are -still- debating that person rather than think "hey maybe I should try his build for a while". I'm not a patient person, so I'm starting to run a little thin here on it, and am about maybe 3 posts away from washing my hands of this thread and leaving you to drown in the deep waters of the pvp ques.
What does hard data change here? You got ET1, one of basicly four Team powers. It doesn't make sense. Switch it out for EPtS1 which provides:
- Boost in shield power
- Boost in shield resistence
- Repairs shields which are disabled
- Regens damaged shields
It also does not clash with your other three team abilities. What kind of hard data do you need? Either keep your ET and change your DOff layout - which would hardly make any sense, really - or ditch the ET and just get that EPtS. There is no need for hard data. A build with four Team powers just wastes slot. Concentrate on one thing: Either ET or ST or TT. But don't do ET and ST and TT. especially combined with one of those DOff buffed.....:eek:
Mav is right after all: He suggests a build which obviously works and instead of just give it a try and play it for a few days, all you want is prove or hard data. While everything I see is you as someone who obviosuly tries to be the renegade and come in with a rather alternative build for the Atrox which he tries to get working. Now you radically changed it - but for the worse. I don't understand just what you are trying to achieve here.
My perception. Or yours.
IIRC EPTS1 between it's full shield power boosting and native resistance gives your shields a roughly 27 percent or so damage resistance. Shields (non Resilient/Maco) stop 90 percent of damage to your hull. Anything that keeps them up longer is better than something that doesn't do so. Resilient shields /Maco furthermore reduce that damage by 50 percent making it an effective fifty percent hull resist console for free as long as the shield is still standing. Making it even more imperative to keeping the shields up.
EPTS also gives what a 2k heal or so to shields?
ET1 heals what... 5k hull at most? And... woo clears a systems knock of... which batteries -and- an EPTX system does anyway.