Feds had plenty of places where there was lack of content, prior to the FTP XP boom.
For the feds: The only hole that existed that was noticeable was at the tail end of the Rear Admiral levels. Each previous level band would open up exploration one tier ahead for you and you could "grind" out the remaining bit left by doing exploration missions that gave you the currency you needed to equip the ship you were going to upgrade to.
And this only existed if you didn't do PvP (which in the first three months a lot of players did while levelling) and ignored patrols.
That's why my bedroom cynicism isn't as strong as some. The team that exist currently at Cryptic is the one working on the game, not the one from the first year after launch.
The one that worked on the game up until launch created, two years later even, most of the content this game has.
I don't think Heretic's been shy about sating that himself, but it was better to get the system out and add to it later than sit on it for several more months.
Exactly. The iterations to the Duty Officer System have beaten my expectations so far and has been rather transparent.
The Duty Officer system's integration into ship interiors (complete with bartender, counselor, etc.) came a lot sooner than I expected. It's not perfect, it's not even great--but it's damn good and represents one of the most consistently supported features of the game, whether we're talking about development-side or client-side.
I don't pin my hopes on Cryptic delivering an amazing territorial control game but I do think that systems designers like Heretic are some of the best shots at getting that territory control that Klingons have wanted since Day One.
(I contend that had starbases, doffs, and territory control been in at launch, a Klingon Episode progression would've been a non-issue for the hardcore players that make up the KDF base).
Let's talk track record, MMOs and end-game expectations from hardcore MMO players ...
When people think end-game in an MMO they oftentimes imagine things like raids. Dragons. World of Warcraft. Stuff like that.
Cryptic is a company that designed Hamidon. A large growing single celled blob. As an end-game encounter in its very first game. Cryptic is the company that has designed STFs, and redesigned them twice.
Their track record with the standards of MMO end-game is almost as bad as their track record with Klingon development. I'd say the only thing they've done worse than end-game development in STO is crafting development.
So here the game sits ... 2 years in ... with a raiding structure that is a half-hearted attempt, a loot drop rate that even the devs can barely say "roll the dice" with a straight face, and a series of half-done gameplay mechanics ranging from the Genesis exploration system to the Diplomacy system to the DOFF system.
And now you all think END-GAME is the solution?
Look at what they've made so far. And compare that to all the other End-Games in the industry.
Yeah. Confidence and Inspiration has been instilled! amirite?
Like I said, this is another empty promise. Deflecting the continued criticism of their failure to develop a second faction, something pretty standard in a lot of MMOs, to give you all hope on some other aspect of gameplay that they've never been able to deliver on before either.
Good luck trekkers. You're going to need it as the game boldly stumbles into mechanics cryptic has never developed before!
"MMO EndGame" per se has evolved A LOT in the last decade.
EQ did NOT start with any endgame. When they started to develop MOBs that they THOUGHT were unkillable; yet players started to devise strategies using multiple groups - even though ONLY the group that gave the kill blow got the EXP - they started to design more of these encounters and added the 36 person Raid group - but Raid were still a grind and the 'tank and spank' strategy reigned supreme - and teh highest level Raid required a YEAR PLUS of runs to get everyone geared for the next expansion wit TOUGHER raids, etc.
Then came CoH (before WoW) which had the idea at teh start to get away from the standard EQ 'loot grind' system and away from 'must kill MOB X to get Loot Item Y' system. In the end, they found it didn't work as well as they hoped and players missed it so over then years shifted the game loot system more towards that style of play. Created one 'Raid Zone' with the Hamidon; and promised expanded Rai zones, but in th end (at leasty uo to 'Going Rogue' just rework the same old Hamidon encounter and tried to give alternate styles of 'engame' content.
Cut to vanilla WoW - which about 6 months after launch had it's raid system in place where they figured it would take a top tier Guild aboutr a years worth of weekly runs through MC toi get the gear to kill everything (including Ragnaros); and then progress. Originnal system had 20 man and 40 man Group Raids, and MOB 'ginnicks' that required different strategies (although some were still 'tank and spank'. As the years progressed, Bl;izzard itself found thios type of endgame paradigm unsustainable in that their data mining showed less then 10% of the paying population ever did these endgame raids - and less then that made it to the very end/hardest raid content (despite the end game raiders being one of the most VOCAL group of players. thus, they started 'simplifying' some WoW mechanics - and went to a 10 to 15 man raid structure for all new Endgame Raid contemt - and lessened many requirements in an attempt to make the Raiding endgame more accessable.
And every MMO after has done the same as teh big corporations realize (for the sub model) $15 a month is $15 a month and the silent casual player's money is just a good as te hardcore raider; and as WoW found out during the shift; WoW GAINED a lot of casuials who did pay for a time (yes, they're in decline now, but trhe 'casual endgame' shift DID work for a few years.
So next we have Cryptic retirning with CO and STO - and they learned from CoH that you CAN'T do an MMO without a loot system; AND they also take teh position that any Endgame content should have elements that catyer to BOTH the hardcore and casual gamer alike (and actually most MMOs including WoW and SWToR are doing the majority of their endgame content in that fashiion.
The original days of 'it's a second job' style of Endgame are dead. And for anyone (and I'm not taking Suoerchum here as that wasn't his point) who thinks even teh STF Elites are 'tough' and 'a grind' - no, compared to the days of 40 man WoW Molten Core and Black Wing Lair Dragon Raids; they're not anywhere NEAR that level of Grind or Difficulty - not even close.
But to Superchum's point - across the MMO industry, the days of catering to 'hardcore' Endgame Raiiders in the manner of EO or vanilla WoW are LONG GONE, and the 800 lbs gorilla that is WoW has been moving away from it for years - and SWToR has followed suit.
The thing now is to make endgame grindy but accessable; and Cryptic's STOs are in line with that philosophy.
That really has nothing to do with my question. My question is what does PW want, since we have been told 2 contradictory things.
and that surprises you? how many times have we been lied to by both him and PW now?
It was probably both. At the time of the sale (May, 2011) PW probably felt there was revenue to be made by making the KDF more viable
thats because there is revenue to be made by doing so. regardless of when they came to that conclusion. if anyone denies that i'm forced to question both their intelligence and their real intentions.
After 10-11 months of data they've come to the conclusion that the KDF will never have a major fan-base following and that putting too many resources into that direction is just a waste of money
based on what exactly? common sense says the exact opposite is true
So ultimately it's just easier to focus primarily on end-game for both groups - and also expanding on PvP and making the war actually viable seems like a reasonable choice as it kills several birds with one stone.
sounds like you're making excuses for them lying to us yet again.
If Dan himself answered your question, would your questions still be unsatisfied?
considering how often what he says is not true, and his habit of talking in circles nobody in their right mind would be satisfied with any answers from him. because i'll bet good money they are not answers.
Or that they think making end game content will benefit all people and add to the game's longevity.
end game content is irrelevant when there is no content to get you to endgame in the first place. the route you suggest here is by design doomed to failure.
I tend to believe whatever said later. This may point to the fact that STO has not been commercially that successful even aftar f2p hence cancelling development of KDF faction.
if its really that bad, I wouldn't expect the game to be around a whole lot longer
To give you my personal 2 GPLs, Nagus, I suspect there's a gulf between what you want to hear and the truth. As much as it would be cool to have Klingon content from the Academy all the way to Dahar Master, I suspect that it will be unlikely that we'll see that in the near future, largely becuase the faction doesn't have that big of a draw.
the faction doesn't have that big of a draw because there is no faction to draw people in. thats the problem. cryptic talks in circular logic - 'there aren't enough players playing klingons so theres no reason to work on them' which, by using that logic, there was no point in making the game in the first place because there were no fed or klingon players when it was created. see the problem? they will get people when there is a reason for people to play them. there currently is not.
But to preempt any "chicken and egg" arguments, I will simply ask, rhetorically: with all of the various Star Trek series that have come out between TOS and now, we have there never been any movies or series based on the Klingons? Because people don't watch Star Trek for the Klingons. Similarly, most players don't play STO for the Klingons, or the Romulans, etc.: they play it for the UFP.
thats circular logic. they watch and play for the UFP because thats all they have ever come out with to date. you can't watch or play what doesn't exist.
Some would argue that a healthy 2 faction pvp game should be the goal, while others may argue having a full level 1-51 experience for KDF would be another goal
you realize you said exactly the same thing twice there?
So Cryptic has approached the healthy game target with different options and right now that option is focus on End Game because nearly everyone is Level 51 so any effort there benefits everyone and the long term health of the game the most. If we can do more, we will.
you realize that your statement here makes no sense right?
you're coming in here making direct contradictions to things stated directly only weeks ago. you've shown just how untrustworthy anything you say here really is. its beginning to be a serious problem for several people at cryptic at this point.
And lastly, rememebr this whole thing is probably out of the Dev's hands and even DStahl's hands as I'm sure the decision was made at upper management levels
which has nothing to do with him saying two different things or being evasive, or not telling the truth. if he has nothing truthful to say he should say nothing. keep in mind that no employee can be forced to mislead anyone. if they told him to say something that was not true and he refused they can't take action of any kind against him, or he would have grounds to get the company in very serious trouble. the point being: the 'cryptic/PW/etc... told him to say things' argument is not true.
They didn't change their mind.
It was just another completely hollow/empty promise in terms of the topic of the KDF.
this sums it up pretty well
In the world of MMOs there's no such thing as a promise. Anyone who thinks differently is, for lack of a better word, delusional.
anyone who makes claims like that and expects people to believe them, is delusional. you're making excuses for the company repeatedly lying to us. even your signature makes bs claims like that (by the way, its not true - when a member of a company posts things like they have making claims, they are speaking on behalf of a company in an official capacity. its more 'set in stone' than you think)
I think any good Ferengi worth his salt could see that, if there was a change, it is probably because faction equality won't earn much of a profit, so far as the current playerbase is concerned
second full faction = more people playing said faction. that is basic logic. don't even try to tell me they wouldn't make more money off it than they do now.
Maybe if more players tried the Klingon faction, they might change their minds
circular logic. there is nothing worth trying at present. and cryptic has done everything they can to discourage people from even trying it. gee, I wonder what that implies.
But shareholders don't typically respond to questions on forums
this has nothing to do with shareholders and you know it
. Them and the Marketing people have more control over development direction than the developers themselves.
no they don't. shareholders telling a company to kill a faction because its not making money when improving it would? makes no sense. and marketing? not if the company is competent they don't.
The problem is, these kinds of blatant contradictions and PR spin leave people unclear of what is really going on
uh, nagus....its pretty clear what that means in this point. we were lied to from day one about their intentions toward the KDF because it would have been suicide to say what they really were from day one
some people are going to feel like a promise has been broken as they can't accept that things need to change
seriously, whats wrong with you? you can't possibly mean that in a serious manner. 'some people will feel like a promise has been broken?' what fantasy land are you living in? they said one thing and then did the exact opposite. they have done it repeatedly in the past. that is not a 'broken promise' that is the very definition of a lie. and you're trying to excuse it.
I suggest you become stockholder then. PW will be paying out nearly 100 million dollars in dividends this month and you would surely be better placed to get a frank answer as well as a nice check.
we are all paying customers. we're just as important as the stockholders. our money decides what happens to the game
Cryptic needs to come out and say the Romulans will be monster play too. They obviously don't have the resources to finish a 2nd faction much less add a 3rd.
its not looking like there will be romulans at all. because by the logic they are using for stopping KDF development, romulans will be just as unprofitable
If they can't take the financial hit to develop a product before they make a profit from it, then they need to just stop leading us on with PR feel-good statements about making the KDF what it should be. Just stop.
indeed
There isn't a collective policy document that says "This is what we want" or "this is how to spend your money"
so... you're saying there is neither a proper budget worked out, nor a proper design doc then? thats not encouraging
Ultimately, there needs to be a concensus about how we approach the KDF faction issue and I think I was pretty clear in the Gates of G podcast as to where that was at...
you're backtracking, making excuses, shifting blame and talking in circles. you were very clear about the intentions toward the KDF in the past, now you're backtracking and trying to make us believe something other than what you made quite clear already. thats not the first time you've done that, and you're not the only dev to do that either. sounds like the staff in general has problems with the truth.
Have you seen our Hiring Page? We are absolutely staffing up and continue to
i've seen it, and i've also seen no influx of newbie developers that are 'in training'
The Makers of STO will never be as Black & White in Their answers, as it appears you would like Them to be
if a company has problems being truthful and clear to its own customers, its an indication they are doing things they shouldn't. its an indication that they are not a company that anyone should do business worth. would you eat at a restaurant if the chef gave you the runaround when you asked what he actually put in your food?
The talk about PWE wanting "two healthy factions", that "this was their investment", that "PWE was willing to spend money to make money" were actually PR statements
in other words it was a lie
Now that he is back, he's taken some cues from D'Angelo and is trying to be more factual.
could have fooled me
He has admitted Cryptic either does not have the resources to make a full KDF faction or is unwilling to risk the financial investment it would require.
no he hasn't. but he might as well had
Why should Cryptic focus on the Level 0-50 content when the game census shows the majority of players at level 50?
is this a serious question? because in order to get to level 50 you need content to play through to earn the xp to level.
Developing endgame isn't relegating KDF to monsterplay.
No, I'm repeating what Dan said in the new GoS interview. He said that at launch the KDF was like LTORO's monster play, and that PW would have preferred than had just stayed that way and Cryptic focused on end game and PvP content than expanding the KDF's PvE.
I think the base issue that is irritating the people who are grumbling here -- myself included -- is the feeling of priorities that are shifting either too rapidly or too dramatically, mostly the latter. It's expressing frustration that at one point, making a full KDF faction was expressed as a priority; then after a period of time where there seemed to be minimal work in achieving that goal, that hope, the priority shifted to endgame content.*
Now, we need endgame content. I don't see anyone in this thread -- anyone -- saying that STO has perfectly fine endgame content, I'm happy grinding STFs and everyone else should be too, shut your pie hole. Bottom line is, we need endgame content/systems.
The problem people have is the apparent disconnects between what was said when Cryptic announced STO (Two full factions!), what actually happened when STO launched, what work was or was not done on the KDF in that time, what was said when Cryptic was bought by PWE (back to a full KDF faction), the work done or not done between then and now, and the more recent announcement of refocussing efforts on Endgame and saying that KDF development is not going to advance at any greater a rate.**
Yes, yes, 'priorities change.' I even agree with that. But... what changed? What changed from a bit under a year ago when PWE said 'We want to make an equal KDF faction,' to now when KDF development will not be -- and apparently has not been -- increased? Did something change at PWE? Did someone change at PWE? Did PWE look at some mass of numbers and make a reverse decision? We just don't know. And we never will.
Honestly, I don't think knowing the 'why' will make a whit of difference.
Now I get that Cryptic has a small staff. But I think this should be a very stark lesson in MMO development for future developers and Cryptic's future projects. And now, STO's failure or success lies entirely on Cryptic's doorstep, which I am confident Cryptic is painfully aware of every day. For all that we say 'they should do X,' or 'they shouldn't do Y' or 'Don't listen to Z, they're an insane tosser!' we'll only know in hindsight how well it went.
* - I can even see how the sudden shift from '25% of the playerbase has a character at level cap to 'the majority of players are at level cap' 'took place. They made it easier to level. So of course all those hordes of new players looking for things to do have gone off elsewhere. Now it's suddenly a crisis to get endgame content in. Which I find curious since this is what people have been saying since Launch. Shocker.
** - I'm reasonably sure they're going to keep doing KDF-specific stuff, just... not a lot of it. I will be extremely shocked if some sort of analogue to 'First Contact Day' is made for the KDF.
....
Maybe so. Maybe not. I dont know and neither do you, which is why I'm *asking*. If he cares to actually answer the question I'm asking, then we will finally know.
It seems to me that the above statement answers this question you selectively ignored:
...
Dan has posted 6 times in this thread so far, including directly answering your questions in his first post. Do you feel you deserve some additional special personal explanations beyond what you have already received in this thread?
...
And to me the answer seems to be yes, you do feel like you deserve an additional special personal explanation in addition to the special personal explanation you already received.
Honestly, I don't think knowing the 'why' will make a whit of difference.
I'll float this theory out there:
The most blatant and clear commentary about Cryptic and PWE wanting a full KDF faction came from Stormshade. These comments were done to stifle hot threads with tons of negative criticism.
So I say that the plan wasn't there. That the comments were just posted to douse an inflammatory topic on the forums and placate forum goers.
It's been done in the past. Most notably on the topic of the game going free to play. Community Reps consistently shut down that topic and doused the flames of that topic for quite some time. Even after PWE had already leaked the news but before it got posted on these very forums.
So maybe, just maybe, the whole thing was just done to shut angry forum goers up. It's not that far-fetched a theory when you see how little was actually done in terms of KDF development, and yet how actively certain topics of discussion get "stifled."
I can say without almost any hesitation that its doubtful the Gates of Stovkor team will ever see another Dev cross thier doorstep after all the TRIBBLE this one Interview has stirred up in the forums.
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
I can say without almost any hesitation that its doubtful the Gates of Stovkor team will ever see another Dev cross thier doorstep after all the TRIBBLE this one Interview has stirred up in the forums.
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
GoS podcast was fine, GoS should be fine. You all didn't approach the topic with this type of thread in mind. Think about all the other "hot" and inflammatory threads that have sprung from different podcasts that never intended for heated debate.
I can say without almost any hesitation that its doubtful the Gates of Stovkor team will ever see another Dev cross thier doorstep after all the TRIBBLE this one Interview has stirred up in the forums.
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
I can say without almost any hesitation that its doubtful the Gates of Stovkor team will ever see another Dev cross thier doorstep after all the TRIBBLE this one Interview has stirred up in the forums.
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
I echo that lament and hope for the sake of the GoS team that the Devs are more forgiving than that and don't lay the blame on the shoulders of the podcasters.
Certain people love to stir up the hornet's nest and the disappointment of the KDF players is an unfortunately easy target.
I can say without almost any hesitation that its doubtful the Gates of Stovkor team will ever see another Dev cross thier doorstep after all the TRIBBLE this one Interview has stirred up in the forums.
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
Yep.. I agree it is sad. Well, in this thread's case you know who to thank for stirring up the hornets nest.
Unfortunately it seems that some people on these forums enjoy inducing rage whether justified or completely falsified... Whether there is a purpose or not (beyond causing discontent). And don't get me started on some people here who just make TRIBBLE up and pretend it is set-in-stone-truth...
Cryptic keeps learning that the more they try to communicate like "real people" with their customers as opposed to just official announcements.. The more TRIBBLE they get. There might come a time where they just give up communicating with us with us as the almost guaranteed grief they will get (real or imagined, deserved or not) outweighs any benefit.
and we both know that the game has never been all that popular or "healthy" we've seen the speculation on numbers, I still find it odd that they never have put out a singular number on subs. Most major game companies at least put out something, Cryptic doesn't. Though the game is indeed around now, its still not that well off in many areas, PVP, End game, balance, all need attention, some more than others
If Cryptic's games weren't 'healty' at the ime PWE poinied up 50 million dollars for the company; I seriouslu DOUBT PWE would have put up that money in the first place. Atari owned Cryptic and if PWE just wanted the Cryptic game engine - they could have just biought it and kept a few of the Cryptic programmers to show their Dev staff how it works, etc.
BUT - PWE bought Cryptic lock stock and barrel - and did provide funds for future development; gave them a full year of more time to make NeverWiter into a full fledged MMO, allowed them to hire staff which they are STILL doing, etc.
If a company considers a game dead - they don't put up 50 million and then CONTINUE to fund development afterwards.
As to putting out 'had subscription numbers, the ONLY company befpre Blizzard that publically released numbers was SOE during EQs heyday (they had a running count on their webpage back in the day)
However, SOE ceased that practise soon after the release of DAoC. In 2004 and 2005 - NCSoft used to release hard number subscription breakdowns in their publically available earnings reports, but afterwards also stopped tht practise.
The fact is - no MMO developer in recent memory has ever released hard numbers per se; a year ago CCP touted EVE had gone over the 400K mark (although with all the recent issues with Captain's Quarters and othe EVE gaffs, that may or may not be the case anymore; and Blizzard (when WoW was still expanding, loved to tout 11, then 12 million (now down to 10 million, but still WAY ahead of any other MMO in subs, including SWToR - and EA ONLY released their approximate figure of about 1.7 million AFTER some analyst reports stated they were at 700K subs.
But, in general, in today's Western MMO market - no, sbscription numbers are closely guarded company secret; and also with CO and STO switch to F2P irrelivent, as the only number that matters is the amount of microtransactions in the C-Store.
Lastly, PWE didn't take STO F2P because it wasn't profitable; they took it F2P because they believed that it would become MORE profitable, and in the end, for any business, that's the bottom liine.
While our website is still officially down, we've set up a temporary location where you can download / listen to the episode which has our interview with Dan Stahl within it.
It seems to me that the above statement answers this question you selectively ignored:
And to me the answer seems to be yes, you do feel like you deserve an additional special personal explanation in addition to the special personal explanation you already received.
Good luck with that....
If Dan chooses to respond to the actual question I asked, great. If not, thats his choice. If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them. Either way I never said I deserved anything. Whatever you have deluded yourself into believing doesnt really bother me
I never said I deserved anything. If Dan chooses to respond to the question I asked, great. If not, thats his choice. Either way it has nothing to do with me deserving anything. Any other lies you want me to correct?
You did ask a question.
You did get a special personal answer from Dan to your question.
Now you want another special personal answer to another question.
All of that is true so I see no lies.
Besides can you prove I was trying to deceive you at the time I posted that? Of course not.. So agian.. No lies.
Or would you rather I "Nagused" you back by saying: Note the words "to me the answer seems to" as it appears that way to me at this time.
Anyways.. As I said before.. Good luck getting a second special personal answer after Dan already provided you one in addition to all the others he provided in this thread.
Edit: Nice edit there.. Complete with your trademarked "If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them" statement. Yeah thanks for the advice.. I did not know I had a choice in reading the forums or not. I really really really appreicate you telling me and so many others that again and again over the years. Statements like that make you seem so wise.
Maybe, but thats not what he said. Once again, I am responding to what he actually *said*, not what he didnt say. He *said* different people at PW wanted different things, so my question is why were we told only ONE thing until now?
I have an honest quiestion for you:
Say DStahl DID answer your question as to why he represented the one group of people he spoke to as 'PWE'. What would that do regarding the current situation and direction Cryptic/PWE are taking the game today? Would such an answer somehow change what Dan has said multiple times in this thread is te direction they are taking the game (IE developing more Level 50+ endgame content for both factions to use)?
I really am curious as to why it's so important for you to have an answer about what was said in the past, an how it helps anything with regard to what's happening now. Would it somehow make DStahl more 'trustworthy' is your eys, or something like that.
Again, Dans no lomnger denying what he said in the past, and made a post stating he realizes it lead to confusion and admitted he did in fact represent the few persons he was talking to as 'all of PWE', and apologized. At this point, I on't get wht the issue is beyond the fact that Dan has stated that post F2P, development priorities have changed?
(And BTW, I'm NOT happy with the situation myself as it also affects the future of FEs <-- Which is the content I have most enjoyed to date; and which is also being shevlved/cut back on; so I'm not rying to give him a pass - but why are you so interested in te deeper reason WHY he represented his PWE discussions as he did. One way or another, that's water under the bridge, IMO.)
You did ask a question.
You did get a special personal answer from Dan to your question.
Now you want another special personal answer to another question.
All of that is true so I see no lies.
There are a lot of things I want, but that doesnt mean I think I "deserve" them. Therefore if you are saying that I *do* think that, when I in fact do not, you are blatantly lying. It couldnt be simpler
Say DStahl DID answer your question as to why he represented the one group of people he spoke to as 'PWE'. What would that do regarding the current situation and direction Cryptic/PWE are taking the game today? Would such an answer somehow change what Dan has said multiple times in this thread is te direction they are taking the game (IE developing more Level 50+ endgame content for both factions to use)?
Honestly, I am personally curious why he and SS told us over and over only one side of the story, as if that were what PW as a whole were saying. I am also curious if he is doing the same thing now. They told us that one side multiple times, just like he has said the current side multiple times. So if anything, I am hoping they stop that kind of misleading communication going forward.
I think you must have misread that post, as you did the one above.
I was responding to Naga's question about why PWE said two different things. Then you decided to give me a history lesson, as if that had anything to do with Naga asked. It didn't. And that's really the issue. No one cares why it happened - that's ancient history. We only care about what steps need to be taken to remedy it. The past will not fix the future.
If you truly believe it has nothing to do with the question and your response, then you clearly do not understand the issue. Begone. *waves dismissively*
There are a lot of things I want, but that doesnt mean I think I "deserve" them. Therefore if you are saying that I do think that, when I in fact do not, you are blatantly lying. I mean, I get that you dont like me or my questions; and thats fine. But the fact that the best response you can come up with is a lie is just pathetic. And funny
So funny you edited your post to remove your accusation that I was telling a lie... But put it in this one after. Doin great Nagus!
But yes, your words and actions on this thread made me believe you felt you deserved another special personal answer from Dan. You say you do not feel you deserve one (but still want your second question answered).. Fine. You do not feel you deserve one... But it still comes off that way to me.
But yes, your words and actions on this thread made me believe you felt you deserved another special personal answer from Dan. You say you do not feel you deserve one (but still want your second question answered).. Fine. You do not feel you deserve one... But it still comes off that way to me.
You are completely free to delude yourself into believing what you like. Since you obviously are not aware, this is a "discussion" forum for "discussing" things. People post questions they would *like* answered, and the Devs sometimes respond. At that point, people can "discuss" what the Devs said and ask more questions, which the Devs can also respond to if they choose. Either way, what you think I think is completely off topic to the subject of this thread.
You are completely free to delude yourself into believing what you like. Since you obviously are not aware, this is a "discussion" forum for "discussing" things. People post questions they would *like* answered, and the Devs sometimes respond. At that point, people can "discuss" what the Devs said and ask more questions, which the Devs can also respond to if they choose. Either way, what you think I think is completely off topic to the subject of this thread.
Just posting my opinion which you know we are all free to do.
And you know what is coming now: "If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them"
Hopefully that advice helps you as much as it helped me.
Just posting my opinion which you know we are all free to do.
Which, in this case, is completely off topic to the subject of this thread. So the question is, were you unaware that discussing what I thought I deserved was off topic to the subject of what PW wants for the KDF faction, or did you willingly break the forum rules? Dont worry, its a rhetorical question
Which, in this case, is completely off topic to the subject of this thread. So the question is, were you unaware that discussing what I thought I deserved was off topic to the subject of what PW wants for the KDF faction, or did you willingly break the forum rules? Dont worry, its a rhetorical question
When all else fails go to the forum rules right Nagus?
So you are contuning to take the thread off topic by discussing why you think I may have been taking the thread off topic? (Breaking those rules yourself.. But do as you say, not as you do right Nagus?)
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Anyways.. Back on topic..
KDF should have been monster play from the get go. Perhaps if so much effort was not put into the KDF we might have had multiple monster play factions by now instead of what we have today.
Comments
For the feds: The only hole that existed that was noticeable was at the tail end of the Rear Admiral levels. Each previous level band would open up exploration one tier ahead for you and you could "grind" out the remaining bit left by doing exploration missions that gave you the currency you needed to equip the ship you were going to upgrade to.
And this only existed if you didn't do PvP (which in the first three months a lot of players did while levelling) and ignored patrols.
Everquest's combat skill system is somewhat more complete than STO's exploration system.
The one that worked on the game up until launch created, two years later even, most of the content this game has.
The Duty Officer system's integration into ship interiors (complete with bartender, counselor, etc.) came a lot sooner than I expected. It's not perfect, it's not even great--but it's damn good and represents one of the most consistently supported features of the game, whether we're talking about development-side or client-side.
I don't pin my hopes on Cryptic delivering an amazing territorial control game but I do think that systems designers like Heretic are some of the best shots at getting that territory control that Klingons have wanted since Day One.
(I contend that had starbases, doffs, and territory control been in at launch, a Klingon Episode progression would've been a non-issue for the hardcore players that make up the KDF base).
"MMO EndGame" per se has evolved A LOT in the last decade.
EQ did NOT start with any endgame. When they started to develop MOBs that they THOUGHT were unkillable; yet players started to devise strategies using multiple groups - even though ONLY the group that gave the kill blow got the EXP - they started to design more of these encounters and added the 36 person Raid group - but Raid were still a grind and the 'tank and spank' strategy reigned supreme - and teh highest level Raid required a YEAR PLUS of runs to get everyone geared for the next expansion wit TOUGHER raids, etc.
Then came CoH (before WoW) which had the idea at teh start to get away from the standard EQ 'loot grind' system and away from 'must kill MOB X to get Loot Item Y' system. In the end, they found it didn't work as well as they hoped and players missed it so over then years shifted the game loot system more towards that style of play. Created one 'Raid Zone' with the Hamidon; and promised expanded Rai zones, but in th end (at leasty uo to 'Going Rogue' just rework the same old Hamidon encounter and tried to give alternate styles of 'engame' content.
Cut to vanilla WoW - which about 6 months after launch had it's raid system in place where they figured it would take a top tier Guild aboutr a years worth of weekly runs through MC toi get the gear to kill everything (including Ragnaros); and then progress. Originnal system had 20 man and 40 man Group Raids, and MOB 'ginnicks' that required different strategies (although some were still 'tank and spank'. As the years progressed, Bl;izzard itself found thios type of endgame paradigm unsustainable in that their data mining showed less then 10% of the paying population ever did these endgame raids - and less then that made it to the very end/hardest raid content (despite the end game raiders being one of the most VOCAL group of players. thus, they started 'simplifying' some WoW mechanics - and went to a 10 to 15 man raid structure for all new Endgame Raid contemt - and lessened many requirements in an attempt to make the Raiding endgame more accessable.
And every MMO after has done the same as teh big corporations realize (for the sub model) $15 a month is $15 a month and the silent casual player's money is just a good as te hardcore raider; and as WoW found out during the shift; WoW GAINED a lot of casuials who did pay for a time (yes, they're in decline now, but trhe 'casual endgame' shift DID work for a few years.
So next we have Cryptic retirning with CO and STO - and they learned from CoH that you CAN'T do an MMO without a loot system; AND they also take teh position that any Endgame content should have elements that catyer to BOTH the hardcore and casual gamer alike (and actually most MMOs including WoW and SWToR are doing the majority of their endgame content in that fashiion.
The original days of 'it's a second job' style of Endgame are dead. And for anyone (and I'm not taking Suoerchum here as that wasn't his point) who thinks even teh STF Elites are 'tough' and 'a grind' - no, compared to the days of 40 man WoW Molten Core and Black Wing Lair Dragon Raids; they're not anywhere NEAR that level of Grind or Difficulty - not even close.
But to Superchum's point - across the MMO industry, the days of catering to 'hardcore' Endgame Raiiders in the manner of EO or vanilla WoW are LONG GONE, and the 800 lbs gorilla that is WoW has been moving away from it for years - and SWToR has followed suit.
The thing now is to make endgame grindy but accessable; and Cryptic's STOs are in line with that philosophy.
and that surprises you? how many times have we been lied to by both him and PW now?
thats because there is revenue to be made by doing so. regardless of when they came to that conclusion. if anyone denies that i'm forced to question both their intelligence and their real intentions.
based on what exactly? common sense says the exact opposite is true
sounds like you're making excuses for them lying to us yet again.
considering how often what he says is not true, and his habit of talking in circles nobody in their right mind would be satisfied with any answers from him. because i'll bet good money they are not answers.
end game content is irrelevant when there is no content to get you to endgame in the first place. the route you suggest here is by design doomed to failure.
if its really that bad, I wouldn't expect the game to be around a whole lot longer
the faction doesn't have that big of a draw because there is no faction to draw people in. thats the problem. cryptic talks in circular logic - 'there aren't enough players playing klingons so theres no reason to work on them' which, by using that logic, there was no point in making the game in the first place because there were no fed or klingon players when it was created. see the problem? they will get people when there is a reason for people to play them. there currently is not.
thats circular logic. they watch and play for the UFP because thats all they have ever come out with to date. you can't watch or play what doesn't exist.
you realize you said exactly the same thing twice there?
you realize that your statement here makes no sense right?
you're coming in here making direct contradictions to things stated directly only weeks ago. you've shown just how untrustworthy anything you say here really is. its beginning to be a serious problem for several people at cryptic at this point.
which has nothing to do with him saying two different things or being evasive, or not telling the truth. if he has nothing truthful to say he should say nothing. keep in mind that no employee can be forced to mislead anyone. if they told him to say something that was not true and he refused they can't take action of any kind against him, or he would have grounds to get the company in very serious trouble. the point being: the 'cryptic/PW/etc... told him to say things' argument is not true.
this sums it up pretty well
anyone who makes claims like that and expects people to believe them, is delusional. you're making excuses for the company repeatedly lying to us. even your signature makes bs claims like that (by the way, its not true - when a member of a company posts things like they have making claims, they are speaking on behalf of a company in an official capacity. its more 'set in stone' than you think)
second full faction = more people playing said faction. that is basic logic. don't even try to tell me they wouldn't make more money off it than they do now.
circular logic. there is nothing worth trying at present. and cryptic has done everything they can to discourage people from even trying it. gee, I wonder what that implies.
this has nothing to do with shareholders and you know it
no they don't. shareholders telling a company to kill a faction because its not making money when improving it would? makes no sense. and marketing? not if the company is competent they don't.
uh, nagus....its pretty clear what that means in this point. we were lied to from day one about their intentions toward the KDF because it would have been suicide to say what they really were from day one
30 seperate quotes, some by different people, and none are labeled as to who said what...
Too confusing for me.
No, I'm repeating what Dan said in the new GoS interview. He said that at launch the KDF was like LTORO's monster play, and that PW would have preferred than had just stayed that way and Cryptic focused on end game and PvP content than expanding the KDF's PvE.
Now, we need endgame content. I don't see anyone in this thread -- anyone -- saying that STO has perfectly fine endgame content, I'm happy grinding STFs and everyone else should be too, shut your pie hole. Bottom line is, we need endgame content/systems.
The problem people have is the apparent disconnects between what was said when Cryptic announced STO (Two full factions!), what actually happened when STO launched, what work was or was not done on the KDF in that time, what was said when Cryptic was bought by PWE (back to a full KDF faction), the work done or not done between then and now, and the more recent announcement of refocussing efforts on Endgame and saying that KDF development is not going to advance at any greater a rate.**
Yes, yes, 'priorities change.' I even agree with that. But... what changed? What changed from a bit under a year ago when PWE said 'We want to make an equal KDF faction,' to now when KDF development will not be -- and apparently has not been -- increased? Did something change at PWE? Did someone change at PWE? Did PWE look at some mass of numbers and make a reverse decision? We just don't know. And we never will.
Honestly, I don't think knowing the 'why' will make a whit of difference.
Now I get that Cryptic has a small staff. But I think this should be a very stark lesson in MMO development for future developers and Cryptic's future projects. And now, STO's failure or success lies entirely on Cryptic's doorstep, which I am confident Cryptic is painfully aware of every day. For all that we say 'they should do X,' or 'they shouldn't do Y' or 'Don't listen to Z, they're an insane tosser!' we'll only know in hindsight how well it went.
* - I can even see how the sudden shift from '25% of the playerbase has a character at level cap to 'the majority of players are at level cap' 'took place. They made it easier to level. So of course all those hordes of new players looking for things to do have gone off elsewhere. Now it's suddenly a crisis to get endgame content in. Which I find curious since this is what people have been saying since Launch. Shocker.
** - I'm reasonably sure they're going to keep doing KDF-specific stuff, just... not a lot of it. I will be extremely shocked if some sort of analogue to 'First Contact Day' is made for the KDF.
It seems to me that the above statement answers this question you selectively ignored:
And to me the answer seems to be yes, you do feel like you deserve an additional special personal explanation in addition to the special personal explanation you already received.
Good luck with that....
I'll float this theory out there:
The most blatant and clear commentary about Cryptic and PWE wanting a full KDF faction came from Stormshade. These comments were done to stifle hot threads with tons of negative criticism.
So I say that the plan wasn't there. That the comments were just posted to douse an inflammatory topic on the forums and placate forum goers.
It's been done in the past. Most notably on the topic of the game going free to play. Community Reps consistently shut down that topic and doused the flames of that topic for quite some time. Even after PWE had already leaked the news but before it got posted on these very forums.
So maybe, just maybe, the whole thing was just done to shut angry forum goers up. It's not that far-fetched a theory when you see how little was actually done in terms of KDF development, and yet how actively certain topics of discussion get "stifled."
Thats sad, really really sad.
I was so hoping that GoS could be a STO related podcast that the Devs could take part in and relax upon rather than just come under more fire from the masses.
GoS podcast was fine, GoS should be fine. You all didn't approach the topic with this type of thread in mind. Think about all the other "hot" and inflammatory threads that have sprung from different podcasts that never intended for heated debate.
what he said.
I echo that lament and hope for the sake of the GoS team that the Devs are more forgiving than that and don't lay the blame on the shoulders of the podcasters.
Certain people love to stir up the hornet's nest and the disappointment of the KDF players is an unfortunately easy target.
We're being played, and not just by Cryptic.
(Hypothetical water cooler discussion about KDF )
Yep.. I agree it is sad. Well, in this thread's case you know who to thank for stirring up the hornets nest.
Unfortunately it seems that some people on these forums enjoy inducing rage whether justified or completely falsified... Whether there is a purpose or not (beyond causing discontent). And don't get me started on some people here who just make TRIBBLE up and pretend it is set-in-stone-truth...
Cryptic keeps learning that the more they try to communicate like "real people" with their customers as opposed to just official announcements.. The more TRIBBLE they get. There might come a time where they just give up communicating with us with us as the almost guaranteed grief they will get (real or imagined, deserved or not) outweighs any benefit.
Bummer for GoS. So sad.
If Cryptic's games weren't 'healty' at the ime PWE poinied up 50 million dollars for the company; I seriouslu DOUBT PWE would have put up that money in the first place. Atari owned Cryptic and if PWE just wanted the Cryptic game engine - they could have just biought it and kept a few of the Cryptic programmers to show their Dev staff how it works, etc.
BUT - PWE bought Cryptic lock stock and barrel - and did provide funds for future development; gave them a full year of more time to make NeverWiter into a full fledged MMO, allowed them to hire staff which they are STILL doing, etc.
If a company considers a game dead - they don't put up 50 million and then CONTINUE to fund development afterwards.
As to putting out 'had subscription numbers, the ONLY company befpre Blizzard that publically released numbers was SOE during EQs heyday (they had a running count on their webpage back in the day)
However, SOE ceased that practise soon after the release of DAoC. In 2004 and 2005 - NCSoft used to release hard number subscription breakdowns in their publically available earnings reports, but afterwards also stopped tht practise.
The fact is - no MMO developer in recent memory has ever released hard numbers per se; a year ago CCP touted EVE had gone over the 400K mark (although with all the recent issues with Captain's Quarters and othe EVE gaffs, that may or may not be the case anymore; and Blizzard (when WoW was still expanding, loved to tout 11, then 12 million (now down to 10 million, but still WAY ahead of any other MMO in subs, including SWToR - and EA ONLY released their approximate figure of about 1.7 million AFTER some analyst reports stated they were at 700K subs.
But, in general, in today's Western MMO market - no, sbscription numbers are closely guarded company secret; and also with CO and STO switch to F2P irrelivent, as the only number that matters is the amount of microtransactions in the C-Store.
Lastly, PWE didn't take STO F2P because it wasn't profitable; they took it F2P because they believed that it would become MORE profitable, and in the end, for any business, that's the bottom liine.
Point your browser to .... http://k-l-i-n-g-o-n-s.com/gos/
If Dan chooses to respond to the actual question I asked, great. If not, thats his choice. If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them. Either way I never said I deserved anything. Whatever you have deluded yourself into believing doesnt really bother me
You did ask a question.
You did get a special personal answer from Dan to your question.
Now you want another special personal answer to another question.
All of that is true so I see no lies.
Besides can you prove I was trying to deceive you at the time I posted that? Of course not.. So agian.. No lies.
Or would you rather I "Nagused" you back by saying: Note the words "to me the answer seems to" as it appears that way to me at this time.
Anyways.. As I said before.. Good luck getting a second special personal answer after Dan already provided you one in addition to all the others he provided in this thread.
Edit: Nice edit there.. Complete with your trademarked "If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them" statement. Yeah thanks for the advice.. I did not know I had a choice in reading the forums or not. I really really really appreicate you telling me and so many others that again and again over the years. Statements like that make you seem so wise.
I have an honest quiestion for you:
Say DStahl DID answer your question as to why he represented the one group of people he spoke to as 'PWE'. What would that do regarding the current situation and direction Cryptic/PWE are taking the game today? Would such an answer somehow change what Dan has said multiple times in this thread is te direction they are taking the game (IE developing more Level 50+ endgame content for both factions to use)?
I really am curious as to why it's so important for you to have an answer about what was said in the past, an how it helps anything with regard to what's happening now. Would it somehow make DStahl more 'trustworthy' is your eys, or something like that.
Again, Dans no lomnger denying what he said in the past, and made a post stating he realizes it lead to confusion and admitted he did in fact represent the few persons he was talking to as 'all of PWE', and apologized. At this point, I on't get wht the issue is beyond the fact that Dan has stated that post F2P, development priorities have changed?
(And BTW, I'm NOT happy with the situation myself as it also affects the future of FEs <-- Which is the content I have most enjoyed to date; and which is also being shevlved/cut back on; so I'm not rying to give him a pass - but why are you so interested in te deeper reason WHY he represented his PWE discussions as he did. One way or another, that's water under the bridge, IMO.)
There are a lot of things I want, but that doesnt mean I think I "deserve" them. Therefore if you are saying that I *do* think that, when I in fact do not, you are blatantly lying. It couldnt be simpler
Honestly, I am personally curious why he and SS told us over and over only one side of the story, as if that were what PW as a whole were saying. I am also curious if he is doing the same thing now. They told us that one side multiple times, just like he has said the current side multiple times. So if anything, I am hoping they stop that kind of misleading communication going forward.
If you truly believe it has nothing to do with the question and your response, then you clearly do not understand the issue. Begone. *waves dismissively*
So funny you edited your post to remove your accusation that I was telling a lie... But put it in this one after. Doin great Nagus!
But yes, your words and actions on this thread made me believe you felt you deserved another special personal answer from Dan. You say you do not feel you deserve one (but still want your second question answered).. Fine. You do not feel you deserve one... But it still comes off that way to me.
You are completely free to delude yourself into believing what you like. Since you obviously are not aware, this is a "discussion" forum for "discussing" things. People post questions they would *like* answered, and the Devs sometimes respond. At that point, people can "discuss" what the Devs said and ask more questions, which the Devs can also respond to if they choose. Either way, what you think I think is completely off topic to the subject of this thread.
Just posting my opinion which you know we are all free to do.
And you know what is coming now: "If my posts bother you then you have the choice not to read them"
Hopefully that advice helps you as much as it helped me.
Which, in this case, is completely off topic to the subject of this thread. So the question is, were you unaware that discussing what I thought I deserved was off topic to the subject of what PW wants for the KDF faction, or did you willingly break the forum rules? Dont worry, its a rhetorical question
When all else fails go to the forum rules right Nagus?
So you are contuning to take the thread off topic by discussing why you think I may have been taking the thread off topic? (Breaking those rules yourself.. But do as you say, not as you do right Nagus?)
<clap> <clap> <clap>
Anyways.. Back on topic..
KDF should have been monster play from the get go. Perhaps if so much effort was not put into the KDF we might have had multiple monster play factions by now instead of what we have today.