Dan, just be honest. What can these kdf folks actually expect? Will they see a kdf faction by 2014? Just be honest. At this rate, how long does throwing bones to them take before it results in a "faction"?
If we take Al Rivera's comment about "the further we plan out the less certain things become , as items planned further out are more and more subject to change" , how can he do that exactly ?
I'm sorry to say this , but its very hypocritical to "demand" that someone "be honest" .
It implys that if you do not ask him to "be honest" then he's not .
Yet if he cannot / will not be "honest" with you because he's well aware that "plans change" (a lesson he and we were taught over and over again in 2011) -- then he becomes the "bad guy" who refuses to "be honest" .
In short , you want to crucify him for his unwillingness to spin you (yet another) tale about the KDF .
Yet another tale that you could (at best) add to Peregrine Falcon's "History of the KDF" entry on STOWiki .
You know what , if you want to live in a dream world , go on , keep asking for details about 2013-2014-2015 .
You will get your share of dissapointment (one way or another) -- and then you will be happy . HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY !
You will be miserable , but you will be happy to be let down one more time .
So "just be honest ..." -- that's what you want , isn't it ?
PWE wants a healthy game, but different individuals have different opinions. Some would argue that a healthy 2 faction pvp game should be the goal, while others may argue having a full level 1-51 experience for KDF would be another goal. At the end of the day, Cryptic has to decide how we spend our manpower and address the long term health of the game (which is what everyone at Cryptic/PW is ultimately watching over).
So Cryptic has approached the healthy game target with different options and right now that option is focus on End Game because nearly everyone is Level 51 so any effort there benefits everyone and the long term health of the game the most. If we can do more, we will.
Well if that doesn't have "The needs of the many..." written all over it, and really that should be everyone's (players included) focus anyways. Everyone has gotten so caught up in the "Well the Feds got this, so when are the KDF finally going to get that.."
Facts are simple:
1) They pushed out the production of the game WAY too fast right from the start, don't know why they were given such a tight deadline, but they were.
2) First in line Lifetime members has surpassed what that lump sum covered for subscription, maintenance, development
3) STO and Cryptic have been caught up in a commercial ping-pong game for how many years now? Just because Cryptic and PWE are bed buddies doesn't exactly mean they've agreed who's sleeping on what side of the bed yet. (or that they ever will)
4)F2P was obviously pushed faster than what Cryptic wanted. All the issues that came up from the P2P/F2P migration are evidence enough of that.
5) C-store/C-points push: With everything else that's gone on and the uncertainty of funding cash flow it's only natural somethings are gotta take a hit or have to be left behind.
I'm on my 3rd fed and 1st Klingon simply because of the level cap and I've only been playing since the 1st of Feb. Klingons in Star Trek have never been as equals to StarFleet/Federation. The fact that they took on a life of their own with the fans is probably the only reason why there's even any KDF playablity at all.
If all the KDF players really want KDF content that badly then why don't they all band together and hash out some coherent storylines and then the KDF community works together as a whole to bash them out the best that can be in the foundry. Not only would that give the KDF players some more content but it could prove to be the starting off point that Cryptic could use to port and remake those into full KDF content.
The KDF players REALLY truely do have a very unique and golden opportunity to really shape the KDF story arc if enough people were willing to cooperate on a grand scale project like that. Then it really would be a win/win for everyone.
If we take Al Rivera's comment about "the further we plan out the less certain things become , as items planned further out are more and more subject to change" , how can he do that exactly ?
I'm sorry to say this , but its very hypocritical to "demand" that someone "be honest" .
It implys that if you do not ask him to "be honest" then he's not .
Yet if he cannot / will not be "honest" with you because he's well aware that "plans change" (a lesson he and we were taught over and over again in 2011) -- then he becomes the "bad guy" who refuses to "be honest" .
In short , you want to crucify him for his unwillingness to spin you (yet another) tale about the KDF .
Yet another tale that you could (at best) add to Peregrine Falcon's "History of the KDF" entry on STOWiki .
You know what , if you want to live in a dream world , go on , keep asking for details about 2013-2014-2015 .
You will get your share of dissapointment (one way or another) -- and then you will be happy . HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY !
You will be miserable , but you will be happy to be let down one more time .
So "just be honest ..." -- that's what you want , isn't it ?
The last paragraph is quite true. There do seem to be alot od posters that appear to like being able to constantly question/moan. I understand that it can be good to ask questions, even complain. But not all the time.
I've started playing sto again since the start of the year, and I've been quite impressed with how much they are putting in to the game. I'm sure they have good intentions when they say what they're focusing on, but things change all the time. It's life I'm afraid.
hmm, the last FE was playable from what lvl.. 9? to13?
yesterday's mission is 20ish.
at this rate we could be proud to see klinks starting at lvl 1 till the end of 2012, which is fine.
IF that is what they want to do.
i would like to hear what will be done about romulans instead!
Can anyone here using the word "promise" in their post please link to a single official announcement or anything from any Cryptic official that actually has the word "promise" in it?
Just curious as I have never once seen anyone from Cryptic literally "promise" anything to anyone.
Stop being so pedantic.
When the EP says something along the lines of 'our new masters are going to get us to do a full KDF faction' that _IS_ a promise, it might not have the precise wording 'we promise to make a full KDF faction' but it's a definite indication of intent.
If you received a job offer by email saying 'we intend to pay you $50,000 per annum' and then when you started the job it turned out you were being paid $25,000 do you really think that a court would then say 'well they didn't use the words promise did they, so it's okay for them to change the terms'.
Written communication making assertations of intent, deliberately sent to the recipient, is a form of promise.
Except in Cryptic's MMO world where we're somehow meant to assume that anything they say is a big fat lie.
When the EP says something along the lines of 'our new masters are going to get us to do a full KDF faction' that _IS_ a promise, it might not have the precise wording 'we promise to make a full KDF faction' but it's a definite indication of intent.
If you received a job offer by email saying 'we intend to pay you $50,000 per annum' and then when you started the job it turned out you were being paid $25,000 do you really think that a court would then say 'well they didn't use the words promise did they, so it's okay for them to change the terms'.
Written communication making assertations of intent, deliberately sent to the recipient, is a form of promise.
Except in Cryptic's MMO world where we're somehow meant to assume that anything they say is a big fat lie.
So for you, the answer is no. You can not provide any evidence of anyone at Cryptic ever using the word "promise" in any official communication.
Anyone else have any evidence of the word "promise" in anything from anyone at Cryptic?
So for you, the answer is no. You can not provide any evidence of anyone at Cryptic ever using the word "promise" in any official communication.
Anyone else have any evidence of the word "promise" in anything from anyone at Cryptic?
You quote a point which you then completely miss. This does not reflect well. When one's argument has become so contracted as to hang solely on the pedantic interpretation of a single word I would suggest the time has come to reevaluate one's argument.
The fact that they took on a life of their own with the fans is probably the only reason why there's even any KDF playablity at all.
When some people (me for instance) tried to mention that the Klingons had a bunch of fans, they were flamed and shot down. So you know, according to the anti-KDF, or the CDF as they are so lovingly referred to around here, you're just plain wrong about that. There's no such thing as Klingon fans.
If all the KDF players really want KDF content that badly then why don't they all band together and hash out some coherent storylines and then the KDF community works together as a whole to bash them out the best that can be in the foundry. Not only would that give the KDF players some more content but it could prove to be the starting off point that Cryptic could use to port and remake those into full KDF content.
Not the foundry thing again.
1- Cryptic has made zero move to include Foundry content into the game.
2- Cryptic has stated that there's ownership obstacles in trying to do so.
3- It still comes down to the very basic problem that Cryptic has had for two years, Fed AND KDF side: They don't have anyone in place who can make new missions. So even just taking foundry created missions and retweaking them for general use would not be possible due to their current "resource drought."
In short ... they can't make missions effectively or efficiently. They haven't been keen on making missions in over a year now. ANY missions. They're definitely ready to make new systems (DOFFs, Ground Combat, Starbases all that fun devvy stuff devs like to dev to pad a resume) but just straight up making new content to be consumed? Nah. Not enough resources.
Resource Drought!
The KDF players REALLY truely do have a very unique and golden opportunity to really shape the KDF story arc if enough people were willing to cooperate on a grand scale project like that. Then it really would be a win/win for everyone.
The opportunity doesn't exist. Foundry does not equate to actual in-game mission content. And even the foundry itself is the victim of Cryptic's current Resource Drought.
You quote a point which you then completely miss. This does not reflect well. When one's argument has become so contracted as to hang solely on the pedantic interpretation of a single word I would suggest the time has come to reevaluate one's argument.
There is no point debating a couple paragraphs of justification of name calling.
But for you, my main points are:
1) The word "promise" can have legal ramifications so using it in business can be serious
2) Nobody from Cryptic has used the word "promise" in any official statement (and if Superchum knows different he should post a link or it did not happen in my book)
3) If I was new and came into the forums and read: "Cryptic said they would try to do X and now they are not.. They fail" or "Cryptic said they would like to do Y but are not now.. So they stink" I would not put much stock in it..
But if I saw "Cryptic promised they would do X and now they are not" or "Cryptic broke their promise that they would do Y" It would be a lot more serious in my book and I might support that cause and possibly start developing ill feelings towards Cryptic.
So I feel that the use of the word "promise" when a promise was never explicitly given seems disingenuous.
4) On these text only forums all we have are our words.. We can not transmit tone, inflection, facial expressions, etc.. So we must chose our words carefully to convey the meaning we intend.
Can anyone here using the word "promise" in their post please link to a single official announcement or anything from any Cryptic official that actually has the word "promise" in it?
Just curious as I have never once seen anyone from Cryptic literally "promise" anything to anyone.
How about those of us who ARENT using that word? Forget the word "promise", we were told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that PW wanted a full KDF faction and that it in fact was already in development:
We are talking about this... it might happen. Also, had some more discussions with Perfect World today about Klingon Play and they want to invest to ensure that the Klingon Faction gets up to par with the Feds as soon as we can staff up and do it, with the emphasis on Fed vs Kdf gameplay (pvp, pve). This is good news and I'm working on the long term schedule for how we are going to get there.
1) We all know that the KDF is suffering from a lack of content right now. We at Cryptic have honestly wanted to put more time, and money into this for some time now. It wasn't possible under previous ownership.
2) PWE's games all feature a very good amount of PvP in them. They're not happy with the current state of the Klingon Empire, much like you aren't. They WANT to fix this and make the Klingons a full fledged faction.
3) The current unlock plan for the KDF is still open to change, much like the rest of our free-to-play plans. However, we feel that by locking Klingon Gameplay until after a player reached level 25 has several benefits for the Empire right now:
Players who join the Empire will already have a good understanding of how to play.
The lack of content can now be made the "correct" amount of content, for leveling a new KDF Character, without having to resort to waiting in long PvP Queues, or grinding endlessly.
We really do want to make 25 levels of new content for the Klingon Empire, and it's easier to start at the beginning.
I know it's hard to see, and I can understand why it's difficult to see. The KDF has been through the ringer for awhile now. We want to make this better for you.
For now, once we make the transition to free-to-play, the plan is that new players will need to spend 25 levels as a federation player first, which we admit is going to be rough on the Klingons. However, once we have finished the KDF side of the game, we think that great things will happen for The Empire. We just have to get there first.
As always, thanks for your patience, and understanding.
We're actually increasing our development team's size in order to be able to make more new content. This means more Featured Episodes, more regular new content, and possibly even more new STFs.
On top of this, we plan on putting quite a bit of work into the Klingon side of the game in order to bring them up to par with what the Federation experience is.
No. If anything, this means that the Klingon Faction has a very large update coming to it later on down the line so that it can finally be a full fledged faction, as The Empire was always meant to be.
Actually, we've been saying for sometime now that it was not possible to bring the KDF up to par with the Federation.
Only recently have we changed that tune, and began to say that we intend to bring the KDF up to par with the Federation.
This is the difference that last month or so has brought us, and I think it's a great thing for the KDF!
However, as you not above, it's going to take us some time to get there. We understand that our Klingon Players have been through the rough. We get to fix this now, but it's going to take us some time. I know it's difficult, but please, remember that this is some of the best news, if not the best news for the KDF, in a very long time.
We've actually already outlined the basics of this:
KDF gameplay will temporarily be "unlocked" by reaching level 25 on the Federation side.
Once unlocked, new Klingon Players will start at roughly level 18, and rapidly advance to level 21 or so. (As outlined in the Ask Cryptic).
Current KDF content will be touched up in order to provide for a better, current KDF experience.
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
I really do acknowledge the shape The Empire is in, as does the rest of Cryptic and PWE. We also really are working on remedying this situation.
I'm really looking forward to the release of the big KDF content patch, when I can hopefully post something along the lines of:
"Yeah... that pizza you thought we would never deliver in the form of KDF content. We might not be Domino's, but we do deliver."
Only, much less confrontational than that, so I'll probably just post some patch notes and revel in the glory of battle with you all on my KDF character.
Do plans change? Of course they do. Obvious statement is obvious. However that is NOT what Dan said in this thread. He said that different people at PW wanted different things for the KDF. That being the case, it was highly misleading to only tell us ONE option that PW was considering over and over and over and over and over and over again with no mention of the fact that it was only one OPTION. They made it sound like PW as a whole had decided what they wanted for the KDF and that it was already in the works. Again, highly misleading.
I'll respond to this, insofar as the issue I think you're trying to get to, and do so without responding quite in kind.
I do think 'lie' is too strong. I don't think Dan Stahl has 'lied' at all; yes, I do believe that. I do think that he tends to couch his stated goals in such a way as to hedge all his bets. Really, this isn't a bad thing usually; if I were in his position, I would want to try to get the idea across that there's a lot of stuff we want to do, and that (for example) there might be a point, someday, when we will get a full -- not merely 'fuller' -- KDF faction. Someday. Maybe. I wouldn't want to make people unhappy or angry. So I think I'd be speaking much the same way and much the same things Dan is. It's not a horrible way to do things, just a bit obfuscating, and it's not 'lying.'
That being said, I would also like to think that someone would nudge me when it was time to stop doing that.
At some point, so-called "PR talk" and "spin" gets seriously in the way of the message. I think it's a bit harsh to call what Dan is doing 'spin' but if there was a more neutral word I could use, I would. And that's part of the issue. We, on the net in general, have come to equate 'spin' (for wont of a more neutral term) and PR with 'advertising' and thus, 'lying.' We have a very negative view of it at best. And I think unfortunately that's the pigeonhole Dan finds himself dangled over.
Some people feel Dan has outright lied. I'm not quite willing to go that far. I think he has a lot of goals, wants us to embrace those goals, but some of those goals just cannot and will not be done with Cryptic's resources. But that detail doesn't get mentioned.
So what I, and I think Kirkfat, and others, are asking for is not for Dan to 'tell the truth,' but for Dan to lay down the law. No matter what I 'want' for the game, no matter what I would give someone else's grandmother for to see in the game, I think this is more important. It may torque some people off, if not most of the 'vocal minority,' but, I think that's worth it. I believe that uncertainty is the enemy of medium- and long-term relations between the players and Cryptic. Can the KDF expect anything in the next six months to a year? Can the KDF expect to have a fleshed-out faction or should they be monster/creep play? Answers to questions like that. Not goals, not plans, not hopes; no 'spin,' no hedging of bets, no cake. What can Cryptic deliver?
Wether that question gets answered or not is, of course, a question in and of itself.
geeze nagus,
those are just "facts" and "statements". you should read between the lines to get what he actually means. \
Don't just read the words. "Be" the words.
Read the sentences like you where typing them in Dan's mind. Been through all he has been through. Forget everything you know, and just read them like Dan thinks. Not in facts, but in parables and fables. Maybe an irish sea chanty or two.
I guess whenever anyone from cryptic types something, we need some sort of translation device to tell us what it actually means.
Other companies don't have this problem.
Yeah, all positive PR talk. Plenty more linked to my sig as I'm sure you're aware. Tired of it. Rather have what Dan told us today - it's a no go because they aren't willing to invest the resources it would require.
Now they need to do the same with the Romulan Faction and tell them it's a no go too. Let's not lead your customers on any longer about things that may never happen. I'm glad to see Dan has stopped all discussions about future game developments except the things that WILL be out soon.
The first part of your statement above is going beyond what I said. I have not ruled out anything when it comes to the KDF and I continue to investigate all opportunities, with discussions ongoing. What I am doing is focusing on the immediate future content which is going live over the next three months.
We ask for transparency in planning and then bash the hell out of them for any violations. No wonder communication has dried up with internet lawyers like Nagus on the case I'm not even sure why this thread is 30+ pages, what do you want them to say?
We ask for transparency in planning and then bash the hell out of them for any violations.
Real tansparency is not misleading. In this case all they had to say was that PW was considering several different options on what to do with the KDF. But rather than saying that, they only told us about one option, and they told us that one option over and over and over and over again without any mention that it was just one option. That wasnt real transparency and only served to mislead people into believing something that obviously didnt happen.
After reading through the devs comments, I really do not think they understand their current situation. If your competitor has more content, ("SW:TOR" has eight fully functional factions while you only have one), you should real consider going out of business. As a result of overcharging for the little content you have, the fans will hold the devs responsible for their publicly made statements. Its all about trust.
Subscribers and 'paying' Free to Play players are both customers. Regardless about how an individual pays for the game, the exchange of money changes the overall relationship. When the developers publicly promise to deliver something, the consumer makes an investment based upon current and future content. Once the developer goes back on a publicly made promise, they break the trust that was originally established with the consumer. According to the dynamics that happen behind the scenes, the statements publicly made by all employees should be reflective. Saying, "We are thinking about..." is different from saying, "We are work on..." One of those statements means debating internally, and the other one means something is in action.
"Star Trek" has been here way before Cryptic and Perfect World had arrived, and it will be here for many-many years after the companies are gone. My question to Cryptic and Perfect World is, "Do you want to be remembered in the short term, or do you want to make a long term impact?" ...and, "What type of long term impression do you want to make?"
Cryptic and Perfect World is made up of some very talented individuals, and each one should be respected for their contributions. As long as those contributions are 'worth the price', capitalism at its best, people will have no problem with making an investment.
Let us use the latest addition to "Star Trek: Online" as an example. Just as an example. Cryptic and Perfect World created this awesome space station, and they got everyone excited about 'celebrating' "First Contact Day". Once consumers were finally walking through the station, the end result lacked in overall substance. Great work on the design aesthetics, but the event lacks overall depth. If the devs created a more robust experience, more people would have been convinced to buy the on sale c-point items. Why? People would feel like their investment is having an equally rewarding affect. Again, the Utopia Planitia research facility is a really nice addition to the game; however, the station's overall purpose to the gaming experience lacks substance. Its the same thing with the Klingon faction.
Why drive up hype over "Klingon Appreciation Week" or events if you are not giving everyone a substantial reward for their investment?
We love you Cryptic. We love you Perfect World.
Give your consumers a substantial reason, through actions, that tell us you are worth the investment.
----
On a separate note, putting that Odyssey on sale, during this event, would have gotten you massive raves and praise. I am talking about EPIC raves that says, "Cryptic and Perfect World loves their fans."
How about those of us who ARENT using that word? Forget the word "promise", we were told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that PW wanted a full KDF faction and that it in fact was already in development:
...
Do plans change? Of course they do. Obvious statement is obvious. However that is NOT what Dan said in this thread. He said that different people at PW wanted different things for the KDF. That being the case, it was highly misleading to only tell us ONE option that PW was considering over and over and over and over and over and over again with no mention of the fact that it was only one OPTION. They made it sound like PW as a whole had decided what they wanted for the KDF and that it was already in the works. Again, highly misleading.
I understand what you are saying. Indeed some of you are not using the word promise and therefore I did not make that group focus of my comment there.
I do see a lot of statements you posted of what they would like to do, what they plan to do, what they want to do.. But as you will note.. They did not say in any of those statements they "promised" literally to do any of those.. Which again was the focus of my point.
I do still get your points as well.. And you know my position that I see you as already receiving a special personal explanation while you would like more questions answered.
I can also understand why you may want to have these additional questions answered.. But I also do not see the point as knowing the "why" in this case will not change the "what"... And if some people here do not like the reason (which seems to me almost inevitable on these forums) of this additional "why" it may increase the discontent. As such I do not see the benefit for Cryptic.
I do see a lot of statements you posted of what they would like to do, what they plan to do, what they want to do.. But as you will note.. They did not say in any of those statements they "promised" literally to do any of those.. Which again was the focus of my point.
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
So, in light of that comment from Stormshade ... thoughts? Comments? More defense of Cryptic?
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
So, in light of that comment from Stormshade ... thoughts? Comments? More defense of Cryptic?
GoS interview, Dan flat out says they didn't finish it as F2P jumped in front.
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
So, in light of that comment from Stormshade ... thoughts? Comments? More defense of Cryptic?
Was that supposed to be your evidence of the word "promise" in an offical statement? Because I really think I missed it there.
I know you say there is evidence but honestly I do not believe you. If finding it with Google is easy for you then just post a link and I will acquiesce the point that Cryptic has never used the word "prmoise" in an official statement. Otherwise I find your statement without evidence to be moot.
Real tansparency is not misleading. In this case all they had to say was that PW was considering several different options on what to do with the KDF. But rather than saying that, they only told us about one option, and they told us that one option over and over and over and over again without any mention that it was just one option. That wasnt real transparency and only served to mislead people into believing something that obviously didnt happen.
So they do too much spin on the forums and sometimes get caught up in the heat of the argument. They're human. Come on, you've made your point and you're just belaboring the hell out of it now. You won, they said one thing and did another. Again. But even you have to admit the simplest of logic dictates they work on endgame to give all the bored Admirals something to do before filling up ranks 1-25 of KDF content that you'll only see if you're leveling a lowbie.
GoS interview, Dan flat out says they didn't finish it as F2P jumped in front.
Then if its already part done, they have that much less to do and probably could put some of it out, now. However given the reliability of statements made by cryptic, it is much more likely, it was never touched to begin with.
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
So, in light of that comment from Stormshade ... thoughts? Comments? More defense of Cryptic?
Oh, was that the 'We're not Domino's but we do deliver' statement Stormshade made? Yeah, I don't know what was up with that. It's hard to blame Stormshade for that, though; I imagine they purposely keep people in positions like Stormy's and Bran's out of the loop. Their job was to communicate and not decide. But that must really be a sucky situation to be in, to say something like that and then have the rug pulled out from under you.
For starters, I would hope they weren't Domino's. That's, like, the Hershey's chocolate of pizza. I'd hope they'd aim a BIT higher, at least!
Then if its already part done, they have that much less to do and probably could put some of it out, now. However given the reliability of statements made by cryptic, it is much more likely, it was never touched to begin with.
So you could come to the forums and nail them for putting out buggy content before it was ready. Of course :rolleyes:
I'm no Cryptic fanboy, check my post history, but this is just ridiculous.
Was that supposed to be your evidence of the word "promise" in an offical statement? Because I really think I missed it there.
No. I just wanted to see what you had to say in defense of Cryptic in light of Stormshade's very explicit comment there that Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
It's pretty clear in that statement that the team was doing work on the KDF. That the work was going to, how did he put it ... oh yeah, once completed allow new players to start at level 1 and experience the faction as ... what were his words ... a full and complete faction.
Now it's all about keeping it monster faction and focusing on end-game?
My evidence on their use of the word promise is being withheld as I feel you need to learn how to search better.
No, I'm more than happy to focus on that statement by Stormshade as clear and as explicit as it is regarding development and work that he says right there the team was actually doing at the time.
Work was done.
It does two things.
1- Reminds me of Dan's statements about the DS9 FE that he says he played parts of LAST year which we find out wasn't really possible since that got made THIS year.
2- Supports my theory that Stormshade was making all of those comments (which Nagus quoted) just to quash forum discussion on the topic.
If finding it with Google is easy for you then just post a link and I will acquiesce the point that Cryptic has never used the word "prmoise" in an official statement. Otherwise I find your statement without evidence to be moot.
I'm not trying to fish for you. I'm trying to teach you how to fish! Happy hunting! It's all out there and easy for you to find.
Then if its already part done, they have that much less to do and probably could put some of it out, now. However given the reliability of statements made by cryptic, it is much more likely, it was never touched to begin with.
I would speculate that it is more likely that they have a lot of pieces done for various parts but until it is all put together properly it will not work correctly..
Sorta like a car.. The engine, tires, steering wheel, computer chip, etc.. Are all made individually and then eventually put together into a working vehicle.. But just putting some of the parts together (like an engine and computer but no sterring wheel and tires) will not create a working product. But again, that just is my guess.
So you could come to the forums and nail them for putting out buggy content before it was ready. Of course :rolleyes:
I'm no Cryptic fanboy, check my post history, but this is just ridiculous.
Don't assume you know what I would do, because you don't.
The fact is, its probably true, it was never done. We heard about the 2800 mission from Dan only to have De Angelo say, he didn't know what Dan was talking about. THAT, speaks volumes about the reliability of statements.
I'm not trying to fish for you. I'm trying to teach you how to fish! Happy hunting! It's all out there and easy for you to find.
Sorry, but that is not the way it works. You present a claim. You back up your claim. It is not the duty of the recipient to validate your claims, real or imagined.
Hey Superchum, a gorilla can perform quantum mathematics! I say it is true so now you prove it is true. LOL
Anyways if you can not present any evidence, which I believe you would have if you did indeed have it, then that point is moot in my book and not worthy of further discussion.
I would speculate that it is more likely that they have a lot of pieces done for various parts but until it is all put together properly it will not work correctly..
Sorta like a car.. The engine, tires, steering wheel, computer chip, etc.. Are all made individually and then eventually put together into a working vehicle.. But just putting some of the parts together (like an engine and computer but no sterring wheel and tires) will not create a working product. But again, that just is my guess.
That is a possibility as well, but even still, if that's the case, making complete missions with all that work done, would be much easier. And if that's the case, they could then push singular missions out, on a more routine basis and expand the KDF faction over time. I made that suggestion, at least once. I'm a realist in that it will take time, but it is do able, and it will pay off.
Logic is simple, give the player more, they will play it.
Comments
If we take Al Rivera's comment about "the further we plan out the less certain things become , as items planned further out are more and more subject to change" , how can he do that exactly ?
I'm sorry to say this , but its very hypocritical to "demand" that someone "be honest" .
It implys that if you do not ask him to "be honest" then he's not .
Yet if he cannot / will not be "honest" with you because he's well aware that "plans change" (a lesson he and we were taught over and over again in 2011) -- then he becomes the "bad guy" who refuses to "be honest" .
In short , you want to crucify him for his unwillingness to spin you (yet another) tale about the KDF .
Yet another tale that you could (at best) add to Peregrine Falcon's "History of the KDF" entry on STOWiki .
You know what , if you want to live in a dream world , go on , keep asking for details about 2013-2014-2015 .
You will get your share of dissapointment (one way or another) -- and then you will be happy .
HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY !
You will be miserable , but you will be happy to be let down one more time .
So "just be honest ..." -- that's what you want , isn't it ?
Well if that doesn't have "The needs of the many..." written all over it, and really that should be everyone's (players included) focus anyways. Everyone has gotten so caught up in the "Well the Feds got this, so when are the KDF finally going to get that.."
Facts are simple:
1) They pushed out the production of the game WAY too fast right from the start, don't know why they were given such a tight deadline, but they were.
2) First in line Lifetime members has surpassed what that lump sum covered for subscription, maintenance, development
3) STO and Cryptic have been caught up in a commercial ping-pong game for how many years now? Just because Cryptic and PWE are bed buddies doesn't exactly mean they've agreed who's sleeping on what side of the bed yet. (or that they ever will)
4)F2P was obviously pushed faster than what Cryptic wanted. All the issues that came up from the P2P/F2P migration are evidence enough of that.
5) C-store/C-points push: With everything else that's gone on and the uncertainty of funding cash flow it's only natural somethings are gotta take a hit or have to be left behind.
I'm on my 3rd fed and 1st Klingon simply because of the level cap and I've only been playing since the 1st of Feb. Klingons in Star Trek have never been as equals to StarFleet/Federation. The fact that they took on a life of their own with the fans is probably the only reason why there's even any KDF playablity at all.
If all the KDF players really want KDF content that badly then why don't they all band together and hash out some coherent storylines and then the KDF community works together as a whole to bash them out the best that can be in the foundry. Not only would that give the KDF players some more content but it could prove to be the starting off point that Cryptic could use to port and remake those into full KDF content.
The KDF players REALLY truely do have a very unique and golden opportunity to really shape the KDF story arc if enough people were willing to cooperate on a grand scale project like that. Then it really would be a win/win for everyone.
The last paragraph is quite true. There do seem to be alot od posters that appear to like being able to constantly question/moan. I understand that it can be good to ask questions, even complain. But not all the time.
I've started playing sto again since the start of the year, and I've been quite impressed with how much they are putting in to the game. I'm sure they have good intentions when they say what they're focusing on, but things change all the time. It's life I'm afraid.
yesterday's mission is 20ish.
at this rate we could be proud to see klinks starting at lvl 1 till the end of 2012, which is fine.
IF that is what they want to do.
i would like to hear what will be done about romulans instead!
Stop being so pedantic.
When the EP says something along the lines of 'our new masters are going to get us to do a full KDF faction' that _IS_ a promise, it might not have the precise wording 'we promise to make a full KDF faction' but it's a definite indication of intent.
If you received a job offer by email saying 'we intend to pay you $50,000 per annum' and then when you started the job it turned out you were being paid $25,000 do you really think that a court would then say 'well they didn't use the words promise did they, so it's okay for them to change the terms'.
Written communication making assertations of intent, deliberately sent to the recipient, is a form of promise.
Except in Cryptic's MMO world where we're somehow meant to assume that anything they say is a big fat lie.
So for you, the answer is no. You can not provide any evidence of anyone at Cryptic ever using the word "promise" in any official communication.
Anyone else have any evidence of the word "promise" in anything from anyone at Cryptic?
I do. But I think you need to get better google search skills and find what I found on your own. Happy hunting!
You quote a point which you then completely miss. This does not reflect well. When one's argument has become so contracted as to hang solely on the pedantic interpretation of a single word I would suggest the time has come to reevaluate one's argument.
When some people (me for instance) tried to mention that the Klingons had a bunch of fans, they were flamed and shot down. So you know, according to the anti-KDF, or the CDF as they are so lovingly referred to around here, you're just plain wrong about that. There's no such thing as Klingon fans.
Not the foundry thing again.
1- Cryptic has made zero move to include Foundry content into the game.
2- Cryptic has stated that there's ownership obstacles in trying to do so.
3- It still comes down to the very basic problem that Cryptic has had for two years, Fed AND KDF side: They don't have anyone in place who can make new missions. So even just taking foundry created missions and retweaking them for general use would not be possible due to their current "resource drought."
In short ... they can't make missions effectively or efficiently. They haven't been keen on making missions in over a year now. ANY missions. They're definitely ready to make new systems (DOFFs, Ground Combat, Starbases all that fun devvy stuff devs like to dev to pad a resume) but just straight up making new content to be consumed? Nah. Not enough resources.
Resource Drought!
The opportunity doesn't exist. Foundry does not equate to actual in-game mission content. And even the foundry itself is the victim of Cryptic's current Resource Drought.
This debate has already happened:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3077027
There is no point debating a couple paragraphs of justification of name calling.
But for you, my main points are:
1) The word "promise" can have legal ramifications so using it in business can be serious
2) Nobody from Cryptic has used the word "promise" in any official statement (and if Superchum knows different he should post a link or it did not happen in my book)
3) If I was new and came into the forums and read: "Cryptic said they would try to do X and now they are not.. They fail" or "Cryptic said they would like to do Y but are not now.. So they stink" I would not put much stock in it..
But if I saw "Cryptic promised they would do X and now they are not" or "Cryptic broke their promise that they would do Y" It would be a lot more serious in my book and I might support that cause and possibly start developing ill feelings towards Cryptic.
So I feel that the use of the word "promise" when a promise was never explicitly given seems disingenuous.
4) On these text only forums all we have are our words.. We can not transmit tone, inflection, facial expressions, etc.. So we must chose our words carefully to convey the meaning we intend.
How about those of us who ARENT using that word? Forget the word "promise", we were told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that PW wanted a full KDF faction and that it in fact was already in development:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3715871#post3715871
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3740402#post3740402
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3740435#post3740435
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3740506#post3740506
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3753196#post3753196
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3753677#post3753677
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3755422#post3755422
Do plans change? Of course they do. Obvious statement is obvious. However that is NOT what Dan said in this thread. He said that different people at PW wanted different things for the KDF. That being the case, it was highly misleading to only tell us ONE option that PW was considering over and over and over and over and over and over again with no mention of the fact that it was only one OPTION. They made it sound like PW as a whole had decided what they wanted for the KDF and that it was already in the works. Again, highly misleading.
I'll respond to this, insofar as the issue I think you're trying to get to, and do so without responding quite in kind.
I do think 'lie' is too strong. I don't think Dan Stahl has 'lied' at all; yes, I do believe that. I do think that he tends to couch his stated goals in such a way as to hedge all his bets. Really, this isn't a bad thing usually; if I were in his position, I would want to try to get the idea across that there's a lot of stuff we want to do, and that (for example) there might be a point, someday, when we will get a full -- not merely 'fuller' -- KDF faction. Someday. Maybe. I wouldn't want to make people unhappy or angry. So I think I'd be speaking much the same way and much the same things Dan is. It's not a horrible way to do things, just a bit obfuscating, and it's not 'lying.'
That being said, I would also like to think that someone would nudge me when it was time to stop doing that.
At some point, so-called "PR talk" and "spin" gets seriously in the way of the message. I think it's a bit harsh to call what Dan is doing 'spin' but if there was a more neutral word I could use, I would. And that's part of the issue. We, on the net in general, have come to equate 'spin' (for wont of a more neutral term) and PR with 'advertising' and thus, 'lying.' We have a very negative view of it at best. And I think unfortunately that's the pigeonhole Dan finds himself dangled over.
Some people feel Dan has outright lied. I'm not quite willing to go that far. I think he has a lot of goals, wants us to embrace those goals, but some of those goals just cannot and will not be done with Cryptic's resources. But that detail doesn't get mentioned.
So what I, and I think Kirkfat, and others, are asking for is not for Dan to 'tell the truth,' but for Dan to lay down the law. No matter what I 'want' for the game, no matter what I would give someone else's grandmother for to see in the game, I think this is more important. It may torque some people off, if not most of the 'vocal minority,' but, I think that's worth it. I believe that uncertainty is the enemy of medium- and long-term relations between the players and Cryptic. Can the KDF expect anything in the next six months to a year? Can the KDF expect to have a fleshed-out faction or should they be monster/creep play? Answers to questions like that. Not goals, not plans, not hopes; no 'spin,' no hedging of bets, no cake. What can Cryptic deliver?
Wether that question gets answered or not is, of course, a question in and of itself.
Congratulations, you won this thread.
We ask for transparency in planning and then bash the hell out of them for any violations. No wonder communication has dried up with internet lawyers like Nagus on the case
Real tansparency is not misleading. In this case all they had to say was that PW was considering several different options on what to do with the KDF. But rather than saying that, they only told us about one option, and they told us that one option over and over and over and over again without any mention that it was just one option. That wasnt real transparency and only served to mislead people into believing something that obviously didnt happen.
Subscribers and 'paying' Free to Play players are both customers. Regardless about how an individual pays for the game, the exchange of money changes the overall relationship. When the developers publicly promise to deliver something, the consumer makes an investment based upon current and future content. Once the developer goes back on a publicly made promise, they break the trust that was originally established with the consumer. According to the dynamics that happen behind the scenes, the statements publicly made by all employees should be reflective. Saying, "We are thinking about..." is different from saying, "We are work on..." One of those statements means debating internally, and the other one means something is in action.
"Star Trek" has been here way before Cryptic and Perfect World had arrived, and it will be here for many-many years after the companies are gone. My question to Cryptic and Perfect World is, "Do you want to be remembered in the short term, or do you want to make a long term impact?" ...and, "What type of long term impression do you want to make?"
Cryptic and Perfect World is made up of some very talented individuals, and each one should be respected for their contributions. As long as those contributions are 'worth the price', capitalism at its best, people will have no problem with making an investment.
Let us use the latest addition to "Star Trek: Online" as an example. Just as an example. Cryptic and Perfect World created this awesome space station, and they got everyone excited about 'celebrating' "First Contact Day". Once consumers were finally walking through the station, the end result lacked in overall substance. Great work on the design aesthetics, but the event lacks overall depth. If the devs created a more robust experience, more people would have been convinced to buy the on sale c-point items. Why? People would feel like their investment is having an equally rewarding affect. Again, the Utopia Planitia research facility is a really nice addition to the game; however, the station's overall purpose to the gaming experience lacks substance. Its the same thing with the Klingon faction.
Why drive up hype over "Klingon Appreciation Week" or events if you are not giving everyone a substantial reward for their investment?
We love you Cryptic. We love you Perfect World.
Give your consumers a substantial reason, through actions, that tell us you are worth the investment.
----
On a separate note, putting that Odyssey on sale, during this event, would have gotten you massive raves and praise. I am talking about EPIC raves that says, "Cryptic and Perfect World loves their fans."
I understand what you are saying. Indeed some of you are not using the word promise and therefore I did not make that group focus of my comment there.
I do see a lot of statements you posted of what they would like to do, what they plan to do, what they want to do.. But as you will note.. They did not say in any of those statements they "promised" literally to do any of those.. Which again was the focus of my point.
I do still get your points as well.. And you know my position that I see you as already receiving a special personal explanation while you would like more questions answered.
I can also understand why you may want to have these additional questions answered.. But I also do not see the point as knowing the "why" in this case will not change the "what"... And if some people here do not like the reason (which seems to me almost inevitable on these forums) of this additional "why" it may increase the discontent. As such I do not see the benefit for Cryptic.
Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
So, in light of that comment from Stormshade ... thoughts? Comments? More defense of Cryptic?
GoS interview, Dan flat out says they didn't finish it as F2P jumped in front.
Was that supposed to be your evidence of the word "promise" in an offical statement? Because I really think I missed it there.
I know you say there is evidence but honestly I do not believe you. If finding it with Google is easy for you then just post a link and I will acquiesce the point that Cryptic has never used the word "prmoise" in an official statement. Otherwise I find your statement without evidence to be moot.
So they do too much spin on the forums and sometimes get caught up in the heat of the argument. They're human. Come on, you've made your point and you're just belaboring the hell out of it now. You won, they said one thing and did another. Again. But even you have to admit the simplest of logic dictates they work on endgame to give all the bored Admirals something to do before filling up ranks 1-25 of KDF content that you'll only see if you're leveling a lowbie.
Then if its already part done, they have that much less to do and probably could put some of it out, now. However given the reliability of statements made by cryptic, it is much more likely, it was never touched to begin with.
Oh, was that the 'We're not Domino's but we do deliver' statement Stormshade made? Yeah, I don't know what was up with that. It's hard to blame Stormshade for that, though; I imagine they purposely keep people in positions like Stormy's and Bran's out of the loop. Their job was to communicate and not decide. But that must really be a sucky situation to be in, to say something like that and then have the rug pulled out from under you.
For starters, I would hope they weren't Domino's. That's, like, the Hershey's chocolate of pizza. I'd hope they'd aim a BIT higher, at least!
So you could come to the forums and nail them for putting out buggy content before it was ready. Of course :rolleyes:
I'm no Cryptic fanboy, check my post history, but this is just ridiculous.
No. I just wanted to see what you had to say in defense of Cryptic in light of Stormshade's very explicit comment there that Meanwhile, the development team has begun work on new content for the KDF, which, once completed, will allow new players to start at level 1, as a Klingon Player, experiencing the faction as a full, and complete faction, the way that both us at Cryptic, and our Players, have always wanted it to be.
It's pretty clear in that statement that the team was doing work on the KDF. That the work was going to, how did he put it ... oh yeah, once completed allow new players to start at level 1 and experience the faction as ... what were his words ... a full and complete faction.
Now it's all about keeping it monster faction and focusing on end-game?
My evidence on their use of the word promise is being withheld as I feel you need to learn how to search better.
No, I'm more than happy to focus on that statement by Stormshade as clear and as explicit as it is regarding development and work that he says right there the team was actually doing at the time.
Work was done.
It does two things.
1- Reminds me of Dan's statements about the DS9 FE that he says he played parts of LAST year which we find out wasn't really possible since that got made THIS year.
2- Supports my theory that Stormshade was making all of those comments (which Nagus quoted) just to quash forum discussion on the topic.
I'm not trying to fish for you. I'm trying to teach you how to fish! Happy hunting! It's all out there and easy for you to find.
I would speculate that it is more likely that they have a lot of pieces done for various parts but until it is all put together properly it will not work correctly..
Sorta like a car.. The engine, tires, steering wheel, computer chip, etc.. Are all made individually and then eventually put together into a working vehicle.. But just putting some of the parts together (like an engine and computer but no sterring wheel and tires) will not create a working product. But again, that just is my guess.
The same Dan that said he played an FE that wasn't actually made until this year according to the folks that made it.
And that's one of my problems with that particular source of information. Citation needed.
Anyways, as I've stated, STO is currently in the midst of a Resource Drought. This is coming on the heels of a Content Drought.
This doesn't bode well for the game's future. It is essentially suggesting that the game is in maintenance mode.
They did. That one new mission. That's what was done.
Don't assume you know what I would do, because you don't.
The fact is, its probably true, it was never done. We heard about the 2800 mission from Dan only to have De Angelo say, he didn't know what Dan was talking about. THAT, speaks volumes about the reliability of statements.
Sorry, but that is not the way it works. You present a claim. You back up your claim. It is not the duty of the recipient to validate your claims, real or imagined.
Hey Superchum, a gorilla can perform quantum mathematics! I say it is true so now you prove it is true. LOL
Anyways if you can not present any evidence, which I believe you would have if you did indeed have it, then that point is moot in my book and not worthy of further discussion.
That is a possibility as well, but even still, if that's the case, making complete missions with all that work done, would be much easier. And if that's the case, they could then push singular missions out, on a more routine basis and expand the KDF faction over time. I made that suggestion, at least once. I'm a realist in that it will take time, but it is do able, and it will pay off.
Logic is simple, give the player more, they will play it.
The new FE came out, you played it didn't you?