We are currently evaluating a change where orders could only be cancelled by the character that created them, and the escrowed Dilithium from a cancelled order would be deposited directly back into that character's personal balance rather than the account wide exchange balance.
I wouldn't bother putting any effort into preventing players from moving dilithium between their characters. Since with the exchange using c-points which are account wide this will always be possible just maybe not really easy. A player could always just buy c-points on one character and then sell the c-points on another character for dilithium. Thus, effectively moving dilithium for at worse a small spread fee of the difference between the buy and sell. And, when this is on Holodeck the market inefficiencies should be small because players will know what prices to currently expect.
That said, having players put up offers just to cancel them to move dilithium is bad. I would suggest another tab which would allow players to put up dilithium into the exchange balance which could then be taken out by another character. Or some other straight forward efficient way of moving dilithium between the characters on an account.
As far as the exchange functionality goes. It seemed to work pretty good. It's a bit inefficient at this point. I traded a bit last night and was able to accumulate about 200k dilithium pretty easily at no net cost of c-points by taking advantage of the inefficiencies. But, I would expect that once the prices stabilize and more players operate to make a market this should work itself out.
Finally, I understand the desire for an upper and lower trading limit to remove the possibility for really bad trades. But, would it be possible to base the limits off of average recent trades. For example, the minimum could be half of the last days or weeks average trades and the maximum could be double the last periods average. That way, it's dynamic but still serves its purpose even better without requiring constant updating.
That said, having players put up offers just to cancel them to move dilithium is bad. I would suggest another tab which would allow players to put up dilithium into the exchange balance which could then be taken out by another character. Or some other straight forward efficient way of moving dilithium between the characters on an account.
This is a great idea...one can only hope it's implemented.
As a regular subscriber, here's my take on Dilithium prices:
Currently on Holodeck, obtaining a 1200 C-Point T5 ship through ingame methods means acquiring 500 Emblems.
1200 C-Points cost 15$ (disregarding the fact that they can only be bought in 500 CP increments, so I can't buy the exact amount), which equates to a month's subscription fee.
Gathering 500 Emblems in a month means getting 16-17 per day on average. How much can I potentially get from dailies?
Deferi: 3+1+1
Neutral Zone: 1+1+1
B'Tran Cluster VA: 3+1 (+1/30 min, additionally)
PvP: 3
Fleet Action: 3
Foundry: 3
(VA STFs: 3 - but players usually prefer the RA ones, as those are less of a hassle, even if they end up with Marks of Valor instead of Emblems)
In total, that's 21+ Emblems. Obviously, earning all of this would take more time than I have, but keeping up the 17 Emblem average is possible in my experience, meaning that I can earn a 1200 CP item ingame in a month or less of Emblem grinding. (Sure, this is a one-time single-character acquisition, not an account-wide infinite-reclaim unlock like the C-Store purchase, but it makes no difference to me, because I don't use any Premium ship on more than one character.)
In short, I can get that 1200 CP value towards my ship two equivalent ways right now:
1. Buy 1200 C-Points for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 17 Emblems per day on average.
---
With the F2P changes, the prices have been increased, but the 400 CP stipend neatly covers that (with a few exceptions), so I don't have to include either factor in my calculations.
In the Dilithium economy, the maximum amount of Refined Dilithium that can be earned per day is 8000. The equivalent of 1 Emblem is 480 Dilithium, as far as daily mission rewards go. So, if the price of a 1200 CP item is now 500 Emblem, then the equivalent of that would be 500x480=240k Dilithium. Divided by the refinement limit, 8000, this is exactly 30 days' worth of Dilithium grinding. So, if we want to get 1200 CP in 30 days, the exchange rate would have to be 240k / 1200 = 200 rD/CP (as others have noted).
Thus, in the new system, the equivalent options for that 1200 CP value would be:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 8000 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 200 rD/CP rate.
---
If the typical exchange rate goes considerably over 200 rD/CP, then NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME someone spends grinding, it becomes mathematically impossible for them to get that value in a month. In that case, I'd get more value out of my 15$ if I skipped a month of subscription and bought Cryptic Points with it instead. That's right: the Dilithium Exchange could create a situation where NOT PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH brings you CLOSER TO A NEW SHIP THAN PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH.
As a regular subscriber, here's my take on Dilithium prices:
Currently on Holodeck, obtaining a 1200 C-Point T5 ship through ingame methods means acquiring 500 Emblems.
1200 C-Points cost 15$ (disregarding the fact that they can only be bought in 500 CP increments, so I can't buy the exact amount), which equates to a month's subscription fee.
Gathering 500 Emblems in a month means getting 16-17 per day on average. How much can I potentially get from dailies?
Deferi: 3+1+1
Neutral Zone: 1+1+1
B'Tran Cluster VA: 3+1 (+1/30 min, additionally)
PvP: 3
Fleet Action: 3
Foundry: 3
(VA STFs: 3 - but players usually prefer the RA ones, as those are less of a hassle, even if they end up with Marks of Valor instead of Emblems)
In total, that's 21+ Emblems. Obviously, earning all of this would take more time than I have, but keeping up the 17 Emblem average is possible in my experience, meaning that I can earn a 1200 CP item ingame in a month or less of Emblem grinding. (Sure, this is a one-time single-character acquisition, not an account-wide infinite-reclaim unlock like the C-Store purchase, but it makes no difference to me, because I don't use any Premium ship on more than one character.)
In short, I can get that 1200 CP value towards my ship two equivalent ways right now:
1. Buy 1200 C-Points for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 17 Emblems per day on average.
---
With the F2P changes, the prices have been increased, but the 400 CP stipend neatly covers that (with a few exceptions), so I don't have to include either factor in my calculations.
In the Dilithium economy, the maximum amount of Refined Dilithium that can be earned per day is 8000. The equivalent of 1 Emblem is 480 Dilithium, as far as daily mission rewards go. So, if the price of a 1200 CP item is now 500 Emblem, then the equivalent of that would be 500x480=240k Dilithium. Divided by the refinement limit, 8000, this is exactly 30 days' worth of Dilithium grinding. So, if we want to get 1200 CP in 30 days, the exchange rate would have to be 240k / 1200 = 200 rD/CP (as others have noted).
Thus, in the new system, the equivalent options for that 1200 CP value would be:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 8000 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 200 rD/CP rate.
---
If the typical exchange rate goes considerably over 200 rD/CP, then NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME someone spends grinding, it becomes mathematically impossible for them to get that value in a month. In that case, I'd get more value out of my 15$ if I skipped a month of subscription and bought Cryptic Points with it instead. That's right: the Dilithium Exchange could create a situation where NOT PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH brings you CLOSER TO A NEW SHIP THAN PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH.
Note: The Tribble T5 ships are 1600 cp, not 1200, so you would have to earn/refine/buy 400 CP more. Which means 80,000 more Dilithium, and 10 days work/grind.
This assumes that the current Tribble pricing will be the set values at F2P-Day.
Note: The Tribble T5 ships are 1600 cp, not 1200, so you would have to earn/refine/buy 400 CP more.
This assumes that the current Tribble pricing will be the set values at F2P-Day.
Don't forget the stipend we'll be receiving once this goes live. It will cover that additional 400 CP. Coincidence? I think not. They *give* us 400 points per month, duping most into believing it's a benefit, then raise prices across the boards and basically eliminate that benefit.
I've never understood the driving need to grind additional ships anyway. It's not like you can respec your captain without restriction. After your free tokens are gone you have to pay real money to do it, so either you spend money on your respecs or your captain is sub-par while using most of the ships you've spent so much time and effort collecting.
Note: The Tribble T5 ships are 1600 cp, not 1200, so you would have to earn/refine/buy 400 CP more.
This assumes that the current Tribble pricing will be the set values at F2P-Day.
As I noted, the 400 CP stipend cancels out the price increase if we're viewing things in terms of 1 month, so I'm just comparing the remaining 1200 CP portion.
With the F2P changes, the prices have been increased, but the 400 CP stipend neatly covers that (with a few exceptions), so I don't have to include either factor in my calculations.
It's not like you can respec your captain without restriction. After your free tokens are gone you have to pay real money to do it, so either you spend money on your respecs or your captain is sub-par while using most of the ships you've spent so much time and effort collecting.
Part of the planned space skill revamp is that the skills modify ONE stat for ALL ship types instead of ALL stats for ONE ship type, reducing the need for respecs. Same with weeapon energy types.
agreed the so called "benefit" of 400 cp per month was screwed when they uped the price on the c-store.
i mean come that was stupid to do that to us. we subers deserve better . the 400 cp was nice until they decided to be idiots and raise the c-store items in price.
Hmmm I still think cryptic might as well sell dilithium in the c-store. I know you are trying to make it look like an economy, but id much rather a fixed price.
I am surprised to say that I dont actually mind the dilithium for cp economy.
I still think you should remove dilithium form crafting and actually put some thought into making crafting better and more rewarding, rather than just doing a quick fix like you have and make it worthless....
We will be adjusting the various limits based on our data analysis and player feedback after the exchange goes live on Tribble.
I've held my tongue up until now about your damage analysis up until now. Because your data analysis to present could yield data that has some semblance to reality, and I grudging will yield that the C-Store data may have some semblance to reality as well.
But now with the Dilthium Exchange any data that you gather will be so badly skewed that it will be useless. IT will be useless as to what player will go on the live game because there are no consequences to players actions. The Tribble C-Points (T-Points) are phony money. It has little, or no, value to players. Any value placed on the T-Points will have no bearing as how player will value in reality. You can feasibly use this data as a baseline.
And price fixing the exchange rate without even having a baseline? Insanity.
Note: So their is no misundetsanding. 'You' used in post meant to be a collective you as in 'you == Cryptic'.
seems to me that the only reason people would want a price cap removed would be to sell their dilithium at a price that would effectively be termed "way overpriced" and as such their dilithium/c-points would prob not sell at all, remember that the people buying the dilithium/c-points will look for the lowest prices, if everyone sold their c-points/dilithium for too much, no one would buy it and there would be no point in having the exchange at all, the cap is a good idea as it keeps the prices reasonable and will promote more people to use the exchange.
This is the entire ideal of a market is. Laws of Supply and Demand. Selling something at a price that customers are willing to pay. If I price something at 1,000,000 to 1, and someone take me up on that offer that was the customer's choice to pay that price. That 1,000,000 to one might seem overpriced to you, but it wasn't overpriced to the customer who paid. As long as there aren't things like a monopoly, the market is self regulating. Someone can come in and undercut my prices. That someone else gets the transaction, with me losing out.
And there can't be a monopoly, nor even an oligarchy, that I can see being creating. Anyone and everyone has the same access to the markets. And there are no big inflationary factors. One can't be generating currency at huge rates like Energy Credits. Cryptic has the control that it needs to regulate the economy: the Dilithium Refining rate.
Yeh been getting the "Dilithium Exchange is disabled" page for the last 3 hours roughly,around when holodeck went down for the patch.
Yes, and now it is impossible te retrieve all the C-store points because of that :mad:
I cannot cancel my offer. i would not be surprised if the C-store points are completely lost now.
With the F2P changes, the prices have been increased, but the 400 CP stipend neatly covers that (with a few exceptions), so I don't have to include either factor in my calculations.
In the Dilithium economy, the maximum amount of Refined Dilithium that can be earned per day is 8000. The equivalent of 1 Emblem is 480 Dilithium, as far as daily mission rewards go. So, if the price of a 1200 CP item is now 500 Emblem, then the equivalent of that would be 500x480=240k Dilithium. Divided by the refinement limit, 8000, this is exactly 30 days' worth of Dilithium grinding. So, if we want to get 1200 CP in 30 days, the exchange rate would have to be 240k / 1200 = 200 rD/CP (as others have noted).
Thus, in the new system, the equivalent options for that 1200 CP value would be:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 8000 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 200 rD/CP rate.
---
If the typical exchange rate goes considerably over 200 rD/CP, then NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME someone spends grinding, it becomes mathematically impossible for them to get that value in a month. In that case, I'd get more value out of my 15$ if I skipped a month of subscription and bought Cryptic Points with it instead. That's right: the Dilithium Exchange could create a situation where NOT PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH brings you CLOSER TO A NEW SHIP THAN PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH.
CORRECTION:
In the above analysis, I've considered the stipend as a compensation for the C-Store price increases, treating it as a bonus instead of including it in the cost of the subscription fee. While this interpretation does have some merit with comparing buying power between pre-F2P and post-F2P, it doesn't accurately represent the values gained in the new system. So, if we take the post-F2P situation as-is, without regards to the price changes, then:
The 15$ monthly subscription fee includes 5$ worth of C-Points. So, the Dilithium gained over the course of a month should be compared to 10$ worth of C-Points (800 CP), not 15$ (1200 CP). Which means that the exchange rate where you ACTUALLY break even is 240k / 800 = 300 rD/CP.
So, including the value of the stipend the subscription fee, the correct comparison is:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$, getting 400 CP and grind NO LESS THAN 800 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 300 rD/CP rate.
CONCLUSION:
While buying C-Points for a ship at over 200 rD/CP would still be a bad deal for me compared to the pre-F2P situation, it's only at 300 rD/CP where I'd be better off buying C-Points with my money instead of a subscription.
im thought the devs already said the promotional points where ok to be traded? the stoked guys said it while they were sitting next to one of the devs.
confirmation would be nice but i think they will.
In Jessie Heinig's interview on STOked Show 100, Part 1. The interview was about Dilithium and the new economy.Jessie Heinig was explaining about the Dilithium Exchange and how it worked. it was Chris that brought up the use of the Gold Account STO C-Point Stipends, and Jessie specifically talked about player selling their stipends in the Dilithium exchange.
Hence why I used, "a little more". Revo should have never had me pointed me back to see that interview . There is so much that has gone a complete 180 degrees from that interview that I think we really need some clarification. I have a collection of quotes running as I watch this that are no longer true of the dilithium economy system.
If I were to go by what was said in this interview I would feel comfortable, because things have been sooo monitized and dilithium has permeated almost all aspects of gameplay and gated so much of the content, I wonder what the heck happened.
For example, one of the statements that I was comfortable with was these two:
In general, you will choose the way that you want to earn dilithium. Do you like doing star clusters? Go and do a bunch of star clusters and earn your dilithium for the day. Do you like PvP? Do a bunch of PvP matches and earn your dilithium that way. Or get if from STFs, or fleet actions, or dailies.
"So being able to gear yourself up will be something you can do by playing the way that you want to play the game "
You are leaving out other parts of the interview. In other parts he talked about doing your dallies to get your Dilithium, which is precisely what we have on Tribble. He also made mention of being potentially rewarded for doing more Exploration missions.
But they did not hold true and hence why I am upset with this "Dilithium Craze". If I want to do exploration I can only do it once a day, that is it. If I want to hit that 8k cap I now have to play the game I don't want to play it.
I have many many more examples of things that were said that I honestly would just like to know, why the apparent 180 and why the push to limit, gate, and monitize. Especially because I am a paying subscriber. I don't for once ever see me using the dilithium-c-point trade, one currency is currently too scarce for "how I want to play the game" and the second, well I value my money too much to trade it away.
its hard to understand because that not what the dev have said and thats not what happens when you use the system in game. as a buyer if you offer a figure of 500 dilithium and its going for 100 you only pay 100 and get the rest back. the seller has gotten exactly what they asked for and no more and as the buyer i have paid less than i originally wanted. its benefited the buyer. ive already done this in game and the devs have confirmed this in the thread.
Actually both can happen, depending on who triggers the transaction. If the CP buyer triggers it they get the best price i.e. they only pay enough dilithium to match the amount of CP they ordered, even if that is less than what they were prepared to. If the CP seller triggers it then they will get the dilithium buyers are prepared to pay even if it is more than what they would settle for.
Yes, and now it is impossible te retrieve all the C-store points because of that :mad:
I cannot cancel my offer. i would not be surprised if the C-store points are completely lost now.
Uh you do realize that these are test points, right? So it doesn't really mean anything if they are lost through a bug, but it does help to report such bugs...
I've held my tongue up until now about your damage analysis up until now. Because your data analysis to present could yield data that has some semblance to reality, and I grudging will yield that the C-Store data may have some semblance to reality as well.
But now with the Dilthium Exchange any data that you gather will be so badly skewed that it will be useless. IT will be useless as to what player will go on the live game because there are no consequences to players actions. The Tribble C-Points (T-Points) are phony money. It has little, or no, value to players. Any value placed on the T-Points will have no bearing as how player will value in reality. You can feasibly use this data as a baseline.
And price fixing the exchange rate without even having a baseline? Insanity.
Note: So their is no misundetsanding. 'You' used in post meant to be a collective you as in 'you == Cryptic'.
Well that's part of the reason why dil sinks are there, to get testers to use the system as if it were live. The analysis is still valid to answering the question about how to balance grinding for dil (i.e. doing STFs) vice injecting cpoints to obtain dil for the various dil sinks. In fact, with the exchange, the cycle becomes complete - previously it was impossible to test real dil grinding-in-lieu-of-money because there was no previous way to convert accumulated dil (yes some of us VA STF runners who didn't even import holo characters are sitting on boatloads of [at least unrefined] dil) into Cpoints. Now there is. The exchange price fixing does have a sound basis in theory when you consider that the maximum rate of usable dil is 8000 dil per day *but* at VA it is so easy to generate that, not having a lower cap on the exchange would quickly devaluate CPs. It does make sense as a baseline to calculate the average length it takes to grind 500 emblems on holo for a T5 ship and use that as your desired exchange ratio for 1200CP. Who came up with the concept that 480dil = 1 emblem ratio? Cryptic didn't, since the theoretical max emblems one can reasonably obtain per day is around 15 (VA b'tran resets every 30minutes and you convert the VA badges to emblems); not to mention that on tribble, exploration nets you 1440dil per day. But in any case, see also http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=237238
1. Cryptic points are account wide.
2. Dilithium and Cryptic points can now be exchanged.
The meaning of this is simple.. even without the "wonky canceling" you can move dilithium from one character to another.
Step1. Sell your dilithium on the account you are transferring from for cpoints
Step2. Buy the dilithium on the account you are transferring to, with the cpoints.
You take a risk based on price fluctuation and will probably take a small loss, or make a small gain but the transfer is complete.
It's a simple rule really..... you cannot have a restricted currency freely exchangeable for an unrestricted currency and keep the restrictions effective.
Because of this you really have 3 options:
1. Do not allow exchanging for the unrestricted currency.
2. Add the restrictions to the unrestricted currency.
3. Remove the restrictions from the restricted currency.
Option 1 is shutdown the exchange. That would be highly dissapointing and defeat the purpose for which it was proposed.
Option 2. If the currency we are trading for becomes "restricted" it will be far less valuable. Meaning cpoints i can only use on one character? The incentive for buying these will be far less. Also how will that work with points that are "account wide" and purchases that are also account wide. This would likely be very difficult to sort out and make a lot of people very angry along the lines of "What do you mean i cant use the points i bought on the character i want" type angry. I would highly advise against it.
Option 3. This is the default option by the way.. If you do nothing you effectively remove the restrictions. For the sake of simplicity and avoiding the Kludgey way of having to cancle and such to do the transfer i would instead suggest making it easier to transfer.
The benefits of option 3 is that there will now be pressure on more people to level up characters and play them more. More characters = more dilithium... but also = more cost and market for them. People will be encouraged to play thier "alts" and then want to equip them well.. then want to make sure they get thier alts dailies done....thus want better equipment to do it faster/better/ more fun/ more players... bigger economy.
Economically you don't really have a choice. You cant really have an exchange, and a character restricted currency. BUT... you don't really need OR WANT one. You want to encourage people to use their mains to spend that dilithium equipping thier alts.
My suggestion is this... ENCOURAGE alts. They will be your salvation. Instead of making transferring more difficult.. make it less.
Here is the math relevant to "Supply/Demand" Equation in the Dilithium Exchange. (Emblems are addressed at the bottom of this post)
REMEMBER its a 2 way street. The "Silvers" will be hungry for your C-points too. "Golds" will be able to earn a lot more Dilithium this way (its also why its better to not have artificial caps imposed on the exchange rate)
Its neither good or bad, it just "is" and as a "ray of light" for the current player base,the potential for your 400 point Stipened to buy 480,000 dilithium/month is pretty high if not inevitable due to the number of Silvers who will want C-points for "free" and who will be competing with eachother for your stipened..
As C-points are Account Wide, your dilithium earning potential is also account wide.
400 Cryptic Points/Month per gold account
720,000 dilithium/month "Earning potential" for Gold accounts (with only 3 slots)
480,000 dilithium/month "Earning potential" for F2P (with 2 slots)
Market competition means people looking to buy C-points are competing with everone else who also wants to buy those points... if you are competing with a Silver to buy points The math becomes :-
720,000+480,000 Dil / 400 CP = 3000 Dilithium per C-point
This is assuming 1 silver per gold , i think its likely to be 4 silvers per gold, so, if anything, the price/c-point is likely to go higher NOT lower
Not everyone will earn their max dilithium, but your hardcore F2Pers who dont want to spend a cent on the game WILL DO .
Hardocre Silver account F2P/ers will have "purchasing power" of 1200 dilithium per C-point, per month if they want their C-store goodies for free.
Of course people can buy in more c-points too, but only have reason to buy a limited amount,the above math speaks for itself (and also shows why dilithium/c-point prices will rise). Its a GOOD thing for gold members for this to happen. (480k/month dilithium without any grinding at all isnt a bad thing)
Onto Emblems... which really is a topic for a diff forum topic and NOT so relevant to this one.
Emblems represnt time spent, if "Time spent" per dilithium is too high you CANNOT rectify that with the Dilithium Exchange, you rectify that by adding Dilithium ORE rewards to more things (which i sincerely hope they do)
The above is exactly why Cryptic needs "Market determined" pricing in order to keep the economy moving *long term", it is also why, even "optimistically" C-point pricing will go beyond the 600 Dil/CP mark in the long term
The exchange price fixing does have a sound basis in theory when you consider that the maximum rate of usable dil is 8000 dil per day *but* at VA it is so easy to generate that, not having a lower cap on the exchange would quickly devaluate CPs. *snip*
Remember C-points are per account and you can earn Dilithium with one toon and use the C-points on any as they are account wide, so "earning potential" for the dilithium exchange is account wide, not per character.
For the purposes of the exchange, The rate of usable dilithium is 24,000 per day per Gold account at minimum and 16,000 dilithium per day for per silver account
Veterans of course are more likely to have more slots unlocked and thus more earning potential.
Price capping the exchange DEVALUES the c-point , which is a very bad thing for cryptic AND current subscribers who will be getting a stipened.
In short, the more dilithium c-points buy , the higher the "in-game" value becomes for the 400 point stipened.
Cryptic has all the control they need with this...the 8000/per toon/per day cap is the only thing they need to control this equation (of course they will only LOWER the refine cap, not raise it if they want to "increase" the value of dilithium)
ummm.. I cannot help but notice that everyone here is missing something VERY important..
we know what your going to spend C-points on.. SHips, costumes, stuff like that.
But what is it your actually going to spend dilithium on?
Ships? Weapons?.. And there is still the energy credit economy or has everyone forgotten about that?
F2P types can either go buy CPoints and exchange them for ships viaa the dilithium exchange, or they can take thier C-points and buy ships. They should have a ship token purchase option in there for standard ships by the way . The normal C-store ships are better then the stock ships and have all those nifty consoles
ahh but getting those ship equipped.. well lets see, you can grind and craft. If you hit level cap you can STF and skip the whole silly mess. if you dont haave an entire set of ships weapons after 100 STF runs you'r really one unlucky sod! Stay away from Vegas and do not buy lotto tickets!
Call me jaded, but most f2P customers are going to realize full well that cryptic wants them to spend money on micro transactions and a lot of them are going to be realy resistant to the idea. The game is enjoyable with out having to spend money in micro transactions for fluff goodies. Its a two edged axe out of nessesity. They are quite capable of advancing in the game without ever spending a dime! All they have to do is be patient. Other MMO's that have subscription aaand f2P have placed limitations on free accounts with the most effective being "time" only so much play time per day per free account. Suddenly the micro tranactions and soemting like an in game gold store become significantly more viable. It allows the F2P player to litteraly buy "time"
And so far with what I am seeing, having the currently low refining limit for free accounts is fine, but its criplling to the paid accounts. If I could transfer refined dilithium and ore and for that matter e-creds and anything else between my characers it would be a different matter. the more characters you have the more dilithium you can refine. You can use the exchange to move refined dilithium between chracters but dilithium ore cannot be transfered.
As a LTM I could give really a flying hoot about the games economic model. Its beeing transformed into a way for Cryptic to make additional money. I hope it works. There are dozens of ways to siphon F2p customers money and one of em is bound to work. AS for we who are allready here. I expect nothing from the F2P model, and the economic changes are just going to get in the way of play. If all this energy being spend on the f2p release and economy were being spent on content maybe the KDF would be a whole faction by now, which would generate subscriptions.
Crrypic isn't is NOT getting any more money from me in any form untill i see content.. a lot of content.. a lot of KDF content. Untlll then this is all just another excuse to not do content. Just like all the other excuses.
Comments
I wouldn't bother putting any effort into preventing players from moving dilithium between their characters. Since with the exchange using c-points which are account wide this will always be possible just maybe not really easy. A player could always just buy c-points on one character and then sell the c-points on another character for dilithium. Thus, effectively moving dilithium for at worse a small spread fee of the difference between the buy and sell. And, when this is on Holodeck the market inefficiencies should be small because players will know what prices to currently expect.
That said, having players put up offers just to cancel them to move dilithium is bad. I would suggest another tab which would allow players to put up dilithium into the exchange balance which could then be taken out by another character. Or some other straight forward efficient way of moving dilithium between the characters on an account.
As far as the exchange functionality goes. It seemed to work pretty good. It's a bit inefficient at this point. I traded a bit last night and was able to accumulate about 200k dilithium pretty easily at no net cost of c-points by taking advantage of the inefficiencies. But, I would expect that once the prices stabilize and more players operate to make a market this should work itself out.
Finally, I understand the desire for an upper and lower trading limit to remove the possibility for really bad trades. But, would it be possible to base the limits off of average recent trades. For example, the minimum could be half of the last days or weeks average trades and the maximum could be double the last periods average. That way, it's dynamic but still serves its purpose even better without requiring constant updating.
This is a great idea...one can only hope it's implemented.
Justify that absolutely absurd value.
Currently on Holodeck, obtaining a 1200 C-Point T5 ship through ingame methods means acquiring 500 Emblems.
1200 C-Points cost 15$ (disregarding the fact that they can only be bought in 500 CP increments, so I can't buy the exact amount), which equates to a month's subscription fee.
Gathering 500 Emblems in a month means getting 16-17 per day on average. How much can I potentially get from dailies?
Deferi: 3+1+1
Neutral Zone: 1+1+1
B'Tran Cluster VA: 3+1 (+1/30 min, additionally)
PvP: 3
Fleet Action: 3
Foundry: 3
(VA STFs: 3 - but players usually prefer the RA ones, as those are less of a hassle, even if they end up with Marks of Valor instead of Emblems)
In total, that's 21+ Emblems. Obviously, earning all of this would take more time than I have, but keeping up the 17 Emblem average is possible in my experience, meaning that I can earn a 1200 CP item ingame in a month or less of Emblem grinding. (Sure, this is a one-time single-character acquisition, not an account-wide infinite-reclaim unlock like the C-Store purchase, but it makes no difference to me, because I don't use any Premium ship on more than one character.)
In short, I can get that 1200 CP value towards my ship two equivalent ways right now:
1. Buy 1200 C-Points for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 17 Emblems per day on average.
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With the F2P changes, the prices have been increased, but the 400 CP stipend neatly covers that (with a few exceptions), so I don't have to include either factor in my calculations.
In the Dilithium economy, the maximum amount of Refined Dilithium that can be earned per day is 8000. The equivalent of 1 Emblem is 480 Dilithium, as far as daily mission rewards go. So, if the price of a 1200 CP item is now 500 Emblem, then the equivalent of that would be 500x480=240k Dilithium. Divided by the refinement limit, 8000, this is exactly 30 days' worth of Dilithium grinding. So, if we want to get 1200 CP in 30 days, the exchange rate would have to be 240k / 1200 = 200 rD/CP (as others have noted).
Thus, in the new system, the equivalent options for that 1200 CP value would be:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$ and grind NO LESS THAN 8000 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 200 rD/CP rate.
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If the typical exchange rate goes considerably over 200 rD/CP, then NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME someone spends grinding, it becomes mathematically impossible for them to get that value in a month. In that case, I'd get more value out of my 15$ if I skipped a month of subscription and bought Cryptic Points with it instead. That's right: the Dilithium Exchange could create a situation where NOT PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH brings you CLOSER TO A NEW SHIP THAN PLAYING FOR 1 MONTH.
Note: The Tribble T5 ships are 1600 cp, not 1200, so you would have to earn/refine/buy 400 CP more. Which means 80,000 more Dilithium, and 10 days work/grind.
This assumes that the current Tribble pricing will be the set values at F2P-Day.
Don't forget the stipend we'll be receiving once this goes live. It will cover that additional 400 CP. Coincidence? I think not. They *give* us 400 points per month, duping most into believing it's a benefit, then raise prices across the boards and basically eliminate that benefit.
I've never understood the driving need to grind additional ships anyway. It's not like you can respec your captain without restriction. After your free tokens are gone you have to pay real money to do it, so either you spend money on your respecs or your captain is sub-par while using most of the ships you've spent so much time and effort collecting.
As I noted, the 400 CP stipend cancels out the price increase if we're viewing things in terms of 1 month, so I'm just comparing the remaining 1200 CP portion.
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Part of the planned space skill revamp is that the skills modify ONE stat for ALL ship types instead of ALL stats for ONE ship type, reducing the need for respecs. Same with weeapon energy types.
i mean come that was stupid to do that to us. we subers deserve better . the 400 cp was nice until they decided to be idiots and raise the c-store items in price.
GROW UP CRYPTIC
I am surprised to say that I dont actually mind the dilithium for cp economy.
I still think you should remove dilithium form crafting and actually put some thought into making crafting better and more rewarding, rather than just doing a quick fix like you have and make it worthless....
I've held my tongue up until now about your damage analysis up until now. Because your data analysis to present could yield data that has some semblance to reality, and I grudging will yield that the C-Store data may have some semblance to reality as well.
But now with the Dilthium Exchange any data that you gather will be so badly skewed that it will be useless. IT will be useless as to what player will go on the live game because there are no consequences to players actions. The Tribble C-Points (T-Points) are phony money. It has little, or no, value to players. Any value placed on the T-Points will have no bearing as how player will value in reality. You can feasibly use this data as a baseline.
And price fixing the exchange rate without even having a baseline? Insanity.
Note: So their is no misundetsanding. 'You' used in post meant to be a collective you as in 'you == Cryptic'.
This is the entire ideal of a market is. Laws of Supply and Demand. Selling something at a price that customers are willing to pay. If I price something at 1,000,000 to 1, and someone take me up on that offer that was the customer's choice to pay that price. That 1,000,000 to one might seem overpriced to you, but it wasn't overpriced to the customer who paid. As long as there aren't things like a monopoly, the market is self regulating. Someone can come in and undercut my prices. That someone else gets the transaction, with me losing out.
And there can't be a monopoly, nor even an oligarchy, that I can see being creating. Anyone and everyone has the same access to the markets. And there are no big inflationary factors. One can't be generating currency at huge rates like Energy Credits. Cryptic has the control that it needs to regulate the economy: the Dilithium Refining rate.
Yes, and now it is impossible te retrieve all the C-store points because of that :mad:
I cannot cancel my offer. i would not be surprised if the C-store points are completely lost now.
CORRECTION:
In the above analysis, I've considered the stipend as a compensation for the C-Store price increases, treating it as a bonus instead of including it in the cost of the subscription fee. While this interpretation does have some merit with comparing buying power between pre-F2P and post-F2P, it doesn't accurately represent the values gained in the new system. So, if we take the post-F2P situation as-is, without regards to the price changes, then:
The 15$ monthly subscription fee includes 5$ worth of C-Points. So, the Dilithium gained over the course of a month should be compared to 10$ worth of C-Points (800 CP), not 15$ (1200 CP). Which means that the exchange rate where you ACTUALLY break even is 240k / 800 = 300 rD/CP.
So, including the value of the stipend the subscription fee, the correct comparison is:
1. Buy 1200 CP for 15$
2. Subscribe for a month for 15$, getting 400 CP and grind NO LESS THAN 800 Dilithium on average, AND buy CP for NO MORE THAN a 300 rD/CP rate.
CONCLUSION:
While buying C-Points for a ship at over 200 rD/CP would still be a bad deal for me compared to the pre-F2P situation, it's only at 300 rD/CP where I'd be better off buying C-Points with my money instead of a subscription.
In Jessie Heinig's interview on STOked Show 100, Part 1. The interview was about Dilithium and the new economy.Jessie Heinig was explaining about the Dilithium Exchange and how it worked. it was Chris that brought up the use of the Gold Account STO C-Point Stipends, and Jessie specifically talked about player selling their stipends in the Dilithium exchange.
If you want to see it for yourself, this is the start of the section of the interview where they talk about the stipend points being sold on the Dilithium Exchange.
You are leaving out other parts of the interview. In other parts he talked about doing your dallies to get your Dilithium, which is precisely what we have on Tribble. He also made mention of being potentially rewarded for doing more Exploration missions.
Actually both can happen, depending on who triggers the transaction. If the CP buyer triggers it they get the best price i.e. they only pay enough dilithium to match the amount of CP they ordered, even if that is less than what they were prepared to. If the CP seller triggers it then they will get the dilithium buyers are prepared to pay even if it is more than what they would settle for.
I did some examples earlier in the thread here
Uh you do realize that these are test points, right? So it doesn't really mean anything if they are lost through a bug, but it does help to report such bugs...
Well that's part of the reason why dil sinks are there, to get testers to use the system as if it were live. The analysis is still valid to answering the question about how to balance grinding for dil (i.e. doing STFs) vice injecting cpoints to obtain dil for the various dil sinks. In fact, with the exchange, the cycle becomes complete - previously it was impossible to test real dil grinding-in-lieu-of-money because there was no previous way to convert accumulated dil (yes some of us VA STF runners who didn't even import holo characters are sitting on boatloads of [at least unrefined] dil) into Cpoints. Now there is. The exchange price fixing does have a sound basis in theory when you consider that the maximum rate of usable dil is 8000 dil per day *but* at VA it is so easy to generate that, not having a lower cap on the exchange would quickly devaluate CPs. It does make sense as a baseline to calculate the average length it takes to grind 500 emblems on holo for a T5 ship and use that as your desired exchange ratio for 1200CP. Who came up with the concept that 480dil = 1 emblem ratio? Cryptic didn't, since the theoretical max emblems one can reasonably obtain per day is around 15 (VA b'tran resets every 30minutes and you convert the VA badges to emblems); not to mention that on tribble, exploration nets you 1440dil per day. But in any case, see also http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=237238
1. Cryptic points are account wide.
2. Dilithium and Cryptic points can now be exchanged.
The meaning of this is simple.. even without the "wonky canceling" you can move dilithium from one character to another.
Step1. Sell your dilithium on the account you are transferring from for cpoints
Step2. Buy the dilithium on the account you are transferring to, with the cpoints.
You take a risk based on price fluctuation and will probably take a small loss, or make a small gain but the transfer is complete.
It's a simple rule really..... you cannot have a restricted currency freely exchangeable for an unrestricted currency and keep the restrictions effective.
Because of this you really have 3 options:
1. Do not allow exchanging for the unrestricted currency.
2. Add the restrictions to the unrestricted currency.
3. Remove the restrictions from the restricted currency.
Option 1 is shutdown the exchange. That would be highly dissapointing and defeat the purpose for which it was proposed.
Option 2. If the currency we are trading for becomes "restricted" it will be far less valuable. Meaning cpoints i can only use on one character? The incentive for buying these will be far less. Also how will that work with points that are "account wide" and purchases that are also account wide. This would likely be very difficult to sort out and make a lot of people very angry along the lines of "What do you mean i cant use the points i bought on the character i want" type angry. I would highly advise against it.
Option 3. This is the default option by the way.. If you do nothing you effectively remove the restrictions. For the sake of simplicity and avoiding the Kludgey way of having to cancle and such to do the transfer i would instead suggest making it easier to transfer.
The benefits of option 3 is that there will now be pressure on more people to level up characters and play them more. More characters = more dilithium... but also = more cost and market for them. People will be encouraged to play thier "alts" and then want to equip them well.. then want to make sure they get thier alts dailies done....thus want better equipment to do it faster/better/ more fun/ more players... bigger economy.
Economically you don't really have a choice. You cant really have an exchange, and a character restricted currency. BUT... you don't really need OR WANT one. You want to encourage people to use their mains to spend that dilithium equipping thier alts.
My suggestion is this... ENCOURAGE alts. They will be your salvation. Instead of making transferring more difficult.. make it less.
REMEMBER its a 2 way street. The "Silvers" will be hungry for your C-points too. "Golds" will be able to earn a lot more Dilithium this way (its also why its better to not have artificial caps imposed on the exchange rate)
Its neither good or bad, it just "is" and as a "ray of light" for the current player base,the potential for your 400 point Stipened to buy 480,000 dilithium/month is pretty high if not inevitable due to the number of Silvers who will want C-points for "free" and who will be competing with eachother for your stipened..
As C-points are Account Wide, your dilithium earning potential is also account wide.
Market competition means people looking to buy C-points are competing with everone else who also wants to buy those points... if you are competing with a Silver to buy points The math becomes :-
720,000+480,000 Dil / 400 CP = 3000 Dilithium per C-point
This is assuming 1 silver per gold , i think its likely to be 4 silvers per gold, so, if anything, the price/c-point is likely to go higher NOT lower
Not everyone will earn their max dilithium, but your hardcore F2Pers who dont want to spend a cent on the game WILL DO .
Hardocre Silver account F2P/ers will have "purchasing power" of 1200 dilithium per C-point, per month if they want their C-store goodies for free.
Of course people can buy in more c-points too, but only have reason to buy a limited amount,the above math speaks for itself (and also shows why dilithium/c-point prices will rise). Its a GOOD thing for gold members for this to happen. (480k/month dilithium without any grinding at all isnt a bad thing)
Onto Emblems... which really is a topic for a diff forum topic and NOT so relevant to this one.
Emblems represnt time spent, if "Time spent" per dilithium is too high you CANNOT rectify that with the Dilithium Exchange, you rectify that by adding Dilithium ORE rewards to more things (which i sincerely hope they do)
The above is exactly why Cryptic needs "Market determined" pricing in order to keep the economy moving *long term", it is also why, even "optimistically" C-point pricing will go beyond the 600 Dil/CP mark in the long term
Remember C-points are per account and you can earn Dilithium with one toon and use the C-points on any as they are account wide, so "earning potential" for the dilithium exchange is account wide, not per character.
For the purposes of the exchange, The rate of usable dilithium is 24,000 per day per Gold account at minimum and 16,000 dilithium per day for per silver account
Veterans of course are more likely to have more slots unlocked and thus more earning potential.
Price capping the exchange DEVALUES the c-point , which is a very bad thing for cryptic AND current subscribers who will be getting a stipened.
In short, the more dilithium c-points buy , the higher the "in-game" value becomes for the 400 point stipened.
Cryptic has all the control they need with this...the 8000/per toon/per day cap is the only thing they need to control this equation (of course they will only LOWER the refine cap, not raise it if they want to "increase" the value of dilithium)
"Not So Good"
What Cryptic says in the past doesn't hold water in the Future.
Neat to see the week late patch finally......better late than nev...wait never mind......
we know what your going to spend C-points on.. SHips, costumes, stuff like that.
But what is it your actually going to spend dilithium on?
Ships? Weapons?.. And there is still the energy credit economy or has everyone forgotten about that?
F2P types can either go buy CPoints and exchange them for ships viaa the dilithium exchange, or they can take thier C-points and buy ships. They should have a ship token purchase option in there for standard ships by the way . The normal C-store ships are better then the stock ships and have all those nifty consoles
ahh but getting those ship equipped.. well lets see, you can grind and craft. If you hit level cap you can STF and skip the whole silly mess. if you dont haave an entire set of ships weapons after 100 STF runs you'r really one unlucky sod! Stay away from Vegas and do not buy lotto tickets!
Call me jaded, but most f2P customers are going to realize full well that cryptic wants them to spend money on micro transactions and a lot of them are going to be realy resistant to the idea. The game is enjoyable with out having to spend money in micro transactions for fluff goodies. Its a two edged axe out of nessesity. They are quite capable of advancing in the game without ever spending a dime! All they have to do is be patient. Other MMO's that have subscription aaand f2P have placed limitations on free accounts with the most effective being "time" only so much play time per day per free account. Suddenly the micro tranactions and soemting like an in game gold store become significantly more viable. It allows the F2P player to litteraly buy "time"
And so far with what I am seeing, having the currently low refining limit for free accounts is fine, but its criplling to the paid accounts. If I could transfer refined dilithium and ore and for that matter e-creds and anything else between my characers it would be a different matter. the more characters you have the more dilithium you can refine. You can use the exchange to move refined dilithium between chracters but dilithium ore cannot be transfered.
As a LTM I could give really a flying hoot about the games economic model. Its beeing transformed into a way for Cryptic to make additional money. I hope it works. There are dozens of ways to siphon F2p customers money and one of em is bound to work. AS for we who are allready here. I expect nothing from the F2P model, and the economic changes are just going to get in the way of play. If all this energy being spend on the f2p release and economy were being spent on content maybe the KDF would be a whole faction by now, which would generate subscriptions.
Crrypic isn't is NOT getting any more money from me in any form untill i see content.. a lot of content.. a lot of KDF content. Untlll then this is all just another excuse to not do content. Just like all the other excuses.