i think this will be mainly used by lifers who will have everything bought in the c-store and have no use for there c-points they will sell them on this exchange.
Spending "Real" $$ for C-points is the limiting factor. The C-point holder will be looking for the Highest Dilithium per point...
You might sell at 50, but there will be far more selling at 500 because C-points are in short supply and high demand.
Before this can even take affect, someone has to say "man, I really need Dilithium. Am I really going to shell out CASH for this?"
When the answer is YES, then it becomes a question of what they think it is worth. For example, I think for $5 I should be able to fully equip my entire starship, so how must dilithium will that be? There's how much you will pay.
If you set your limits too high or too low, you will prevent this from taking affect because I can't get my money's worth from it. You're now doomed to pay whatever price the stipend players deem is worthy (which will be max price most likely).
Spending "Real" $$ for C-points is the limiting factor. The C-point holder will be looking for the Highest Dilithium per point...
You might sell at 50, but there will be far more selling at 500 because C-points are in short supply and high demand.
I think the fact that it's refined DL and that Mark XI weapons cost 22K creates higher demand on the Dilithium side. Who would be willing to let go of 500 DL for 1 point when it takes days to get just one Mark XI weapon?
I understand that they want to make Mark XI purple stuff like EPIC... but it's not... it's too late... they want you to feel like OMG I just got a purple mark XI weapon and you tell your fleet mates and you are proud... but you cant make something old new again...
i think this will be mainly used by lifers who will have everything bought in the c-store and have no use for there c-points they will sell them on this exchange.
The issue with this is... if i have every c-store item , what do i need dilithium for ?
For example, I think for $5 I should be able to fully equip my entire starship
Well, when you are dealing with economics of scarcity, you don't really get to decide that your $5 should fully equip your ship. You either have to pay what the holders of the resource you need to equip your ship decide you have to pay, or you don't equip your ship.
Well, when you are dealing with economics of scarcity, you don't really get to decide that your $5 should fully equip your ship. You either have to pay what the holders of the resource you need to equip your ship decide you have to pay, or you don't equip your ship.
Or pay what the holders of the C-points want or keep using your vanilla ships.
Well, when you are dealing with economics of scarcity, you don't really get to decide that your $5 should fully equip your ship. You either have to pay what the holders of the resource you need to equip your ship decide you have to pay, or you don't equip your ship.
I do if I'm the one holding the scarce resource. In this case, the C-points I had to pay for are the scarce resource. Don't be mistaken, the dilithium may be rare are first but once people start farming these for C-points (where the coolest items will be going of course) it will get inundated fast.
I do if I'm the one holding the scarce resource. In this case, the C-points I had to pay for are the scarce resource. Don't be mistaken, the dilithium may be rare are first but once people start farming these for C-points (where the coolest items will be going of course) it will get inundated fast.
Then I am confused. you initially said you should be able to equip your ship for $5. Equipment is a dilithium cost, not a c-point cost. C-points will buy you a ship, but it'll be vanilla except for a console.
So if you want to equip, you need dilithium, right?
So how does that make you the holder of the scarce resource? Anyone with a bank card and some disposable income can buy c-store points. Dilithium can only be grinded (time), and then is time-gated thru refining (time x2). My time is worth more than your c-points.
im thinking my first reaction of 500 is too high may have been only seeing it from one side of the coin. 500 might be ok, but i dont think i want to see it higher than 1000. certainly there has to be an upper limit of sorts or people just post stupid prices and waste everybody's time.
The Dilithium Exchange only deals with Refined Dilithium.
that slows down the amount of dilithium that will hit the system and makes it rarer and more valuable as a result although it does make it very time consuming. its going to take people quite some time to trade for points unless people have big stashes of dilithium from the conversion.
i think this goes back to somehow making the refining cap higher in some way.
Well that at least falls in the established, projected exchange rates.
1 emblem = 480 Dilithium
1200 CP / 500 Emblem = 2.4 CP
1 Emblem = 2.4CP
2.4CP = 480 Dilithium 1CP = 200 Dilithium
5CP = 1000 D
10CP = 2000 D
20CP = 4000 D
40CP = 8000 D
50CP = 10,000 D
80CP (=$1) =16,0000 D
100CP = 20,000 D
Using this model what would the 400 cp stipened be if it were translated through the dilitium exchange?
im thinking my first reaction of 500 is too high may have been only seeing it from one side of the coin. 500 might be ok, but i dont think i want to see it higher than 1000. certainly there has to be an upper limit of sorts or people just post stupid prices and waste everybody's time.
that slows down the amount of dilithium that will hit the system and makes it rarer and more valuable as a result although it does make it very time consuming. its going to take people quite some time to trade for points unless people have big stashes of dilithium from the conversion.
i think this goes back to somehow making the refining cap higher in some way.
There really isn't a logical reason for there to be a refining cap on paying accounts. Either the exchange is robust and can handle/adjust for inflation and available dilithium, or every transaction will be pegged at whatever the max cost is and the available dilithium (refined) for the exchange will be too scarce.
Is this for trading Dilithium Ore or Refined Dilithium? If Refined Dilithium can be traded, it means that the 8000 limit is easily dealt with. Refine on multiple characters and trade to main.
Don't forget that you still need to have alt slots, and you need to grind ore with them in order to refine it. Not that it's a bad thing... I think it's good that you can deal with the cap by playing on various mediocre alts with common gear, and have one or two skilled mains with good gear and stuff.
Anyway, this exchange seems promising.
Although, if we're already on the economy subject (;)), one thing should be noted - while this might take care of the "crafting alts" problem (by allowing transfers within the account), the fleet and social crafting remains problematic.
There are many suggestions from the community on how it could be fixed (even without being completely unrelated to the dilithium economy). When are we going to hear any official response on that subject (i.e., some plans, thoughts, directions)?
I do if I'm the one holding the scarce resource. In this case, the C-points I had to pay for are the scarce resource. Don't be mistaken, the dilithium may be rare are first but once people start farming these for C-points (where the coolest items will be going of course) it will get inundated fast.
With all the lifers around C points wont be a scarce resource..
I do if I'm the one holding the scarce resource. In this case, the C-points I had to pay for are the scarce resource. Don't be mistaken, the dilithium may be rare are first but once people start farming these for C-points (where the coolest items will be going of course) it will get inundated fast.
Yeah this exactly....
Basically EVERY player (Silver/Gold/Casual and Hardcore) will generate dilithium, not every player will generate C-points.
Its easy to see which will be the limiting factor on the Exchange.
Then I am confused. you initially said you should be able to equip your ship for $5. Equipment is a dilithium cost, not a c-point cost. C-points will buy you a ship, but it'll be vanilla except for a console.
So if you want to equip, you need dilithium, right?
So how does that make you the holder of the scarce resource? Anyone with a bank card and some disposable income can buy c-store points. Dilithium cn only be grinded, and then is time-gated thru refining.
I want to equip my ship, so I buy C-points. I believe the value of my $5 dollars of C-points to be worth whatever the dilithium cost would be to fully equip my ship.
Dilithium "seems" scarce until you factor in the number of players this game will have in a few months. Not to mention I can create an unlimited number of accounts to farm dilithium all day long, and there are a number of high level players who don't need dilithium and can just throw it away.
C-points require real money. Sure, C-points are not unlimited, but neither is dilithium. However, I would project that people who buy C-points want maximum value for their dollar (they paid for it you know), and will demand no less.
Also keep in mind that you can assume the latest updates (ships, uniforms, etc) will almost all be C-store. This makes the luxury value of owning a C-point higher than owning a dilithium crystal, partly because you will need so much of them for an item, and partly because they have greater expendability.
This exchange is driven on the availability of C-points, NOT dilithium.
There really isn't a logical reason for there to be a refining cap on paying accounts. Either the exchange is robust and can handle/adjust for inflation and available dilithium, or every transaction will be pegged at whatever the max cost is and the available dilithium (refined) for the exchange will be too scarce.
I like the cap, I hate being spammed by gold farmers and it is very likely to start. My hats off to STO for keeping them silent for so long!
im thinking my first reaction of 500 is too high may have been only seeing it from one side of the coin. 500 might be ok, but i dont think i want to see it higher than 1000. certainly there has to be an upper limit of sorts or people just post stupid prices and waste everybody's time.
that slows down the amount of dilithium that will hit the system and makes it rarer and more valuable as a result although it does make it very time consuming. its going to take people quite some time to trade for points unless people have big stashes of dilithium from the conversion.
i think this goes back to somehow making the refining cap higher in some way.
Honestly I'm all for putting at least a cap on how high you can sell a c-point for. Otherwise you'll just see these ridiculous prices of about 10k dilithium for a single c-point. I haven't hit the cap yet on refining for the day. mostly because i don't have much time to play on the days i work. Days I'm off are usually eaten by the running around taking care of other rl things. Honestly with it being a cap though almost everyone under the sun will almost always place their c-point at the cap limit. Lets face it, people are greedy by nature and will want the most they can get.
I like the cap, I hate being spammed by gold farmers and it is very likely to start. My hats off to STO for keeping them silent for so long!
Most gold farmers won't pay a sub fee. Those that do can be quickly identified and banned. Refining limit makes sense on the free-to-play guys so you don't get fleeloading gold farmers, but there is no reason that paying subs should be limited in their refining.
A VA ship on the Tribble C-store costs 1600-2000 C-Points
Buying such a ship on Holodeck costs you 500 Emblems/Marks
An emblem is roughly equivalent to 480 Dilithium or 3.2-4 C-Points
Ergo the exchange rate should be somewhere at 120-150 Dilithium per C-Point.
So the limits are already very lenient. A maximum of 300 Dilithium per C-Point would already mean that you need twice the grinding for one ship than on Holodeck. 450 Dilithium means three times as much grinding. I'd like to see more restrictive conversion rates from 75-200 Dilithium per C-Point. That would also somewhat make using the exchange for pay-to-win less attractive.
And yes, I know I am comparing per-character unlocks with per-account unlocks. Actually, VA ships are seldom bought for more than one character, because you already need six character slots to have a character for each faction/career.
And none of the above changes the fact, that it is an insult to degrade existing Gold players to dilithium farmers in order to get their VA ships anyway.
There really isn't a logical reason for there to be a refining cap on paying accounts. Either the exchange is robust and can handle/adjust for inflation and available dilithium, or every transaction will be pegged at whatever the max cost is and the available dilithium (refined) for the exchange will be too scarce.
It depends. We are looking at this as if expecting that C-Points will be the scarce resource, but I'm wondering if the intent is that Dilithium will somehow be the scarce resource? At first blush, it won''t be -- the only way to get CP is by cashy money and there are a half dozen ways of getting any number of DL in the game, in varying amounts -- but never underestimate a market's value to go gonzo on you like Spider Jerusalem with a newsfeed.
A VA ship on the Tribble C-store costs 1600-2000 C-Points
Buying such a ship on Holodeck costs you 500 Emblems/Marks
An emblem is roughly equivalent to 480 Dilithium or 3.2-4 C-Points
Ergo the exchange rate should be somewhere at 120-150 Dilithium per C-Point.
So the limits are already very lenient. A maximum of 300 Dilithium per C-Point would already mean that you need twice the grinding for one ship than on Holodeck. 450 Dilithium means three times as much grinding. I'd like to see more restrictive conversion rates from 75-200 Dilithium per C-Point. That would also somewhat make using the exchange for pay-to-win less attractive.
And yes, I know I am comparing per-character unlocks with per-account unlocks. Actually, VA ships are seldom bought for more than one character, because you already need six character slots to have a character for each faction/career.
If there isn't a profit motive (and we can argue about how large of one it needs to be all day long) then why would anyone put C-points up for dilithium? (people who can't grind will, of course, but no one else) Some folks will go the altruistic route (parity of emblem:c-store point converted to dilithium) but most will want more bang for their real dollar (c-point) to the other guys grindy dollar (dilithium).
Honestly with it being a cap though almost everyone under the sun will almost always place their c-point at the cap limit. Lets face it, people are greedy by nature and will want the most they can get.
yep they will but while people want the most they can get they also want it done quickly. saving time is another thing people want.
if ten thousand players are all posting at 500 then its worth posting at 490 just to stand out and get it quickly even though you lose a little. then everybody posts at 490 until someone posts at 480 and so on until it finds its level that people feel is too cheap and it stabilizes.
having no cap at all does the same thing, it just takes a lot longer to reach that fair level.
If there isn't a profit motive (and we can argue about how large of one it needs to be all day long) then why would anyone put C-points up for dilithium? (people who can't grind will, of course, but no one else) Some folks will go the altruistic route (parity of emblem:c-store point converted to dilithium) but most will want more bang for their real dollar (c-point) to the other guys grindy dollar (dilithium).
Yep and untill i can pay my mortgage and buy groceries with Dilithium, thats how it will be
I like the cap, I hate being spammed by gold farmers and it is very likely to start. My hats off to STO for keeping them silent for so long!
I'm sorry, there is a touch of irony in this statement that I wanted to address. Nothing against you.
There is a mechanism in place for silencing spammers. If some critical number of people report someone as a spammer within an unspecified time, that person is automatically silenced for 24 hours. (This has caught some people who were not spamming but were being sufficiently annoying to a sufficient number of people that they reported said person as a spammer and silenced them.) In theory each case of an automatic silencing is examined to see if it was a 'justified' silencing, but of course we've never heard what action was taken.
I had to comment because while I give Cryptic credit for a rather ingenious and reasonably effective system for dealing with spammers, most of the work is actually done by your fellow players in any given zone.
Comments
Before this can even take affect, someone has to say "man, I really need Dilithium. Am I really going to shell out CASH for this?"
When the answer is YES, then it becomes a question of what they think it is worth. For example, I think for $5 I should be able to fully equip my entire starship, so how must dilithium will that be? There's how much you will pay.
If you set your limits too high or too low, you will prevent this from taking affect because I can't get my money's worth from it. You're now doomed to pay whatever price the stipend players deem is worthy (which will be max price most likely).
I think the fact that it's refined DL and that Mark XI weapons cost 22K creates higher demand on the Dilithium side. Who would be willing to let go of 500 DL for 1 point when it takes days to get just one Mark XI weapon?
I understand that they want to make Mark XI purple stuff like EPIC... but it's not... it's too late... they want you to feel like OMG I just got a purple mark XI weapon and you tell your fleet mates and you are proud... but you cant make something old new again...
The issue with this is... if i have every c-store item , what do i need dilithium for ?
Why crafting of course, silly Klingon.
Well, when you are dealing with economics of scarcity, you don't really get to decide that your $5 should fully equip your ship. You either have to pay what the holders of the resource you need to equip your ship decide you have to pay, or you don't equip your ship.
Or pay what the holders of the C-points want or keep using your vanilla ships.
Finally someone who gets Economics.
I do if I'm the one holding the scarce resource. In this case, the C-points I had to pay for are the scarce resource. Don't be mistaken, the dilithium may be rare are first but once people start farming these for C-points (where the coolest items will be going of course) it will get inundated fast.
I can craft silly klingons ?
Then I am confused. you initially said you should be able to equip your ship for $5. Equipment is a dilithium cost, not a c-point cost. C-points will buy you a ship, but it'll be vanilla except for a console.
So if you want to equip, you need dilithium, right?
So how does that make you the holder of the scarce resource? Anyone with a bank card and some disposable income can buy c-store points. Dilithium can only be grinded (time), and then is time-gated thru refining (time x2). My time is worth more than your c-points.
that slows down the amount of dilithium that will hit the system and makes it rarer and more valuable as a result although it does make it very time consuming. its going to take people quite some time to trade for points unless people have big stashes of dilithium from the conversion.
i think this goes back to somehow making the refining cap higher in some way.
Using this model what would the 400 cp stipened be if it were translated through the dilitium exchange?
There really isn't a logical reason for there to be a refining cap on paying accounts. Either the exchange is robust and can handle/adjust for inflation and available dilithium, or every transaction will be pegged at whatever the max cost is and the available dilithium (refined) for the exchange will be too scarce.
hmmmmm, seems there are already enough of us on Holo, maybe you should craft ships, now that would be interesting. Who needs more silly Klingons?
Don't forget that you still need to have alt slots, and you need to grind ore with them in order to refine it. Not that it's a bad thing... I think it's good that you can deal with the cap by playing on various mediocre alts with common gear, and have one or two skilled mains with good gear and stuff.
Anyway, this exchange seems promising.
Although, if we're already on the economy subject (;)), one thing should be noted - while this might take care of the "crafting alts" problem (by allowing transfers within the account), the fleet and social crafting remains problematic.
There are many suggestions from the community on how it could be fixed (even without being completely unrelated to the dilithium economy). When are we going to hear any official response on that subject (i.e., some plans, thoughts, directions)?
With all the lifers around C points wont be a scarce resource..
80,000 refined dilithium at that exchage.
Yeah this exactly....
Basically EVERY player (Silver/Gold/Casual and Hardcore) will generate dilithium, not every player will generate C-points.
Its easy to see which will be the limiting factor on the Exchange.
I want to equip my ship, so I buy C-points. I believe the value of my $5 dollars of C-points to be worth whatever the dilithium cost would be to fully equip my ship.
Dilithium "seems" scarce until you factor in the number of players this game will have in a few months. Not to mention I can create an unlimited number of accounts to farm dilithium all day long, and there are a number of high level players who don't need dilithium and can just throw it away.
C-points require real money. Sure, C-points are not unlimited, but neither is dilithium. However, I would project that people who buy C-points want maximum value for their dollar (they paid for it you know), and will demand no less.
Also keep in mind that you can assume the latest updates (ships, uniforms, etc) will almost all be C-store. This makes the luxury value of owning a C-point higher than owning a dilithium crystal, partly because you will need so much of them for an item, and partly because they have greater expendability.
This exchange is driven on the availability of C-points, NOT dilithium.
I like the cap, I hate being spammed by gold farmers and it is very likely to start. My hats off to STO for keeping them silent for so long!
Honestly I'm all for putting at least a cap on how high you can sell a c-point for. Otherwise you'll just see these ridiculous prices of about 10k dilithium for a single c-point. I haven't hit the cap yet on refining for the day. mostly because i don't have much time to play on the days i work. Days I'm off are usually eaten by the running around taking care of other rl things. Honestly with it being a cap though almost everyone under the sun will almost always place their c-point at the cap limit. Lets face it, people are greedy by nature and will want the most they can get.
Most gold farmers won't pay a sub fee. Those that do can be quickly identified and banned. Refining limit makes sense on the free-to-play guys so you don't get fleeloading gold farmers, but there is no reason that paying subs should be limited in their refining.
So the limits are already very lenient. A maximum of 300 Dilithium per C-Point would already mean that you need twice the grinding for one ship than on Holodeck. 450 Dilithium means three times as much grinding. I'd like to see more restrictive conversion rates from 75-200 Dilithium per C-Point. That would also somewhat make using the exchange for pay-to-win less attractive.
And yes, I know I am comparing per-character unlocks with per-account unlocks. Actually, VA ships are seldom bought for more than one character, because you already need six character slots to have a character for each faction/career.
And none of the above changes the fact, that it is an insult to degrade existing Gold players to dilithium farmers in order to get their VA ships anyway.
Regards,
Rachel
It depends. We are looking at this as if expecting that C-Points will be the scarce resource, but I'm wondering if the intent is that Dilithium will somehow be the scarce resource? At first blush, it won''t be -- the only way to get CP is by cashy money and there are a half dozen ways of getting any number of DL in the game, in varying amounts -- but never underestimate a market's value to go gonzo on you like Spider Jerusalem with a newsfeed.
If there isn't a profit motive (and we can argue about how large of one it needs to be all day long) then why would anyone put C-points up for dilithium? (people who can't grind will, of course, but no one else) Some folks will go the altruistic route (parity of emblem:c-store point converted to dilithium) but most will want more bang for their real dollar (c-point) to the other guys grindy dollar (dilithium).
yep they will but while people want the most they can get they also want it done quickly. saving time is another thing people want.
if ten thousand players are all posting at 500 then its worth posting at 490 just to stand out and get it quickly even though you lose a little. then everybody posts at 490 until someone posts at 480 and so on until it finds its level that people feel is too cheap and it stabilizes.
having no cap at all does the same thing, it just takes a lot longer to reach that fair level.
Yep and untill i can pay my mortgage and buy groceries with Dilithium, thats how it will be
I'm sorry, there is a touch of irony in this statement that I wanted to address.
There is a mechanism in place for silencing spammers. If some critical number of people report someone as a spammer within an unspecified time, that person is automatically silenced for 24 hours. (This has caught some people who were not spamming but were being sufficiently annoying to a sufficient number of people that they reported said person as a spammer and silenced them.) In theory each case of an automatic silencing is examined to see if it was a 'justified' silencing, but of course we've never heard what action was taken.
I had to comment because while I give Cryptic credit for a rather ingenious and reasonably effective system for dealing with spammers, most of the work is actually done by your fellow players in any given zone.