More of the game made more difficult no matter if you subscribed or not.
Cryptic, if you want to make this good for your existing customer base, then subscribers should be able to craft everything at ZERO Dilithium cost. And those items crafted by subscribers can only by traded and used BY subscribers.
Silver players should be locked out of crafting altogether or only allowed to craft Odd Mk'd Gear.
Thanks but no thanks.
This absolutely this !
Cryptic, PLEASE change this !
NO DILITHIUM FOR GOLD MEMBERS CRAFTING !
The problem sto is fixing is the fact that maxing out the game is to easy. I have read many posts none have addressed this. Therefore sto is gonna make it much harder for you. This is why DL is being inserted into the game. Also you must realize that CRYPTIC was aquired by PWI forsome 40 million and want some return on there investment asap. PWI wants your money so if you love sto youl have to pay, sorry
There are plenty of ways to make things "harder" than just slapping a Dilithium tax on it. There have been a few incredibly good ideas thrown out by players that make crafting worth doing and still have some factor of "hardness" to it. My personal favorite is Katic's proposal. The only RD involved is through optional means. Give us the choice of using it rather than ramming it down our throats at every turn.
What Cryptic's doing is the lazy person's way out. What players are suggesting are a win-win on both sides.
If STO, and by extension crafting (since they put the dilithium tax on it) is so easy, Triangulum, then why did they add in the multiphasic events to make collecting anomalies _even easier_?
As for paying, I am, trust me. I have another 18-ish months before I break even on the LTS I bought. This crafting change (proposed at the moment, to be fair) means I'm not going to get what I paid for in the spring.
There are plenty of ways to make things "harder" than just slapping a Dilithium tax on it. There have been a few incredibly good ideas thrown out by players that make crafting worth doing and still have some factor of "hardness" to it. My personal favorite is Katic's proposal. The only RD involved is through optional means. Give us the choice of using it rather than ramming it down our throats at every turn.
What Cryptic's doing is the lazy person's way out. What players are suggesting are a win-win on both sides.
Actually what Cryptic is doing is nothing less than nickle and diming the community. It's that simple really. It's also effectively killing the social aspect of crafting as well. The only thing i have to think about is when i'm going to quit playing at this point.
There's plenty of ways to make crafting harder. They simply do not want to use them as it makes no hard cash. Let me think: 41 days to craft a full set up for a Cruiser because of refinement time, or just trade C-Points for RD and get it all through a vendor? You do the math.
There are plenty of ways to make things "harder" than just slapping a Dilithium tax on it. There have been a few incredibly good ideas thrown out by players that make crafting worth doing and still have some factor of "hardness" to it. My personal favorite is Katic's proposal. The only RD involved is through optional means. Give us the choice of using it rather than ramming it down our throats at every turn.
What Cryptic's doing is the lazy person's way out. What players are suggesting are a win-win on both sides.
Actually what Cryptic is doing is nothing less than nickle and diming the community. It's that simple really. It's also effectively killing the social aspect of crafting as well. The only thing i have to think about is when i'm going to quit playing at this point.
There's plenty of ways to make crafting harder. They simply do not want to use them as it makes no hard cash. Let me think: 41 days to craft a full set up for a Cruiser because of refinement time, or just trade C-Points for RD and get it all through a vendor? You do the math.
Actually, I think it's both. They are lazy by doing the easiest thing they could think of (outside of keeping it like it currently is on Holodeck) AND money-grubbing by practically forcing people to buy Dilithium with CP for their crafting.
Hearing StormShade on Priority One made some things clear to me though.....
1. They expected this kind of rage on the forums.
2. They think we are overreacting to the changes.
3. The changes we want are not going to happen. ("We can't make everyone happy")
So,why are we on Tribble again?
I LOVE the: "We can't make everyone happy." qoute lol
Really ! It's the most absurd thing that can come out of a dev's mouth at this stage in the game, (no pun intended)
WHO EXACTLY HAVE YOU MADE HAPPY LATELY?
Not the Klingon players, who've been promised this that and the other thing and got NOTHING.
Not PVP'rs. PVP's been ignored, unbalanced and has all but withered and died.
Not the community at large, who's gone without any real content for how long? Promises made, broken, ect. Been mislead, mistreated and taken for granted and now we have this F2P money grab !
We were told, Gold players won't notice any change with the F2P conversion WRONG. We notice that content was delayed AGAIN.
We noticed the economy changes, where EVERYTHING is going to cost dilitium. And the grind's been turned up to the maximum !
We noticed no new ship tokens when you are promoted, ( I mean we had to riot to get our ship tokens back for Pete's sake ! ). We noticed crafting's been ruined of all practical Fleet use, which is really unfortunate for
fleets. But hey, Fleet Starbases are coming ! Refinance your house now! Imagine the dilithium cost on those babies !!!!
Veteran rewards given, taken away, changed, and almost ignored or forgotten.
Are the lifetimer's happy? I mean, hey, we get a 400 a month stipend right ? Stahl says, C store prices will if anything, go down. Then Tribble testing starts and woo hoo !, everything anyone would want, has gone up exactly 400 C points ! OH JEEZE THANKS ! If I were to trade 400 points for dilithium, that would get me what exactly? One lump of dilithium ore maybe? How much does a cup of coffee cost at Club 47? 40,000 ? !!!!!
Then let's not forget you taking away our Merits we worked for.
Then there is that whole exchange rate thing that I still don't have a clue about, but I know I'm getting robbed! I just know it !
Then there is that whole Excelsior BS, DON'T get me started on that one !!!!!!
The Commander level Excelsior and Nebula have been moved to the C Store now. And now THAT EXCELSIOR is the only one with the transwarp....... Smooth move Cryptic !
NOOOOOOO NOONE'S getting ANYTHING taken away from them they said.... RIGHT !
The silver player matrix gives NO INCENTIVE WHAT SO EVER to go GOLD. So again, lifers and subscribers can go pound dilitium ore in the mines of Rura Penthe !
So what if you kept this game going up to this point with hardly little more than promises and an endless content drought to show for it. Hey, go test free to play on tribble, YOU'LL LOVE IT !
Level another Character, playing the same missions over and over again, GET USED TO IT !
GRIND BABY GRIND !
Come on Cryptic !
"Can't make everyone happy" LOL !!!!!!
That's absolutely HYSTERICAL !
HOW'S ABOUT YOU TRY to make SOME happy ? I wouldn't want you to overexert yourselves on our account.
There are plenty of ways to make things "harder" than just slapping a Dilithium tax on it. There have been a few incredibly good ideas thrown out by players that make crafting worth doing and still have some factor of "hardness" to it. My personal favorite is Katic's proposal. The only RD involved is through optional means. Give us the choice of using it rather than ramming it down our throats at every turn.
What Cryptic's doing is the lazy person's way out. What players are suggesting are a win-win on both sides.
They could make crafting harder by increasing the amount of samples one needs for an item,or adding a base item for you to upgrade......but adding Dilithium is a money grab for the simple fact it's the only thing in game that you can trade for C-points.
But hey, Fleet Starbases are coming ! Refinance your house now! Imagine the dilithium cost on those babies !!!!
We've been told since the game launched that fleets would be getting fleet starbases, too. Time and again, in every engineering reports: "We're working on it, but we have to push it out to the next update". I've resigned myself to the fact that it's just never going to happen.
They could make crafting harder by increasing the amount of samples one needs for an item,or adding a base item for you to upgrade
If they wanted to do that, they could go back to where we only got one anomaly every time we scanned one, like they had back at release. Now they're making it even easier to get higher end anomalies with the multi-phasic events. The anomaly prices, from a quick glance, have not increased in cost. They clearly aren't trying to make it harder to craft items that way. The only thing that changed is the dilithium charge.
Cryptic, if you want to gate crafting, increase the anomalies needed, increase the trace particles needed, increase the number of crafting points needed to level up to make the very high end stuff, and sell the rare traces and anomaly samples in the c-store instead. THAT will give you the money you want without having such a negative impact on fleet and alt crafting, AND it will drive down the cost of rare traces on the Exchange, which is something you also said you wanted. It will give people the option to pay or farm. You will see both, and you will actually make some people very happy with this option. Right now you badly need to make some people happy, too.
Yep, me too. I told the fleet to come bug me now for things they think they might need at RA/VA level so I can get them made now before any other crafting changes go live.
I looked at the tribble MA after the update and noted, sadly, there was no change, although it might be too early yet.
@Shadow_Mane--I love how you help out your friends. I try to help out new fleetmates and friends as much as I can, too. This change would prevent me from doing that, too, and the thought of not being able to help them distresses me.
Thank you. Having a community player base that is helpful and supportive to new players is KEY to a successful MMO. Sometimes when someone comes on Grid, at ESD, and ask for help, that they are new to STO. I will help them. Show them around ESD, show them where everything is.
And depending on the feel I get from them I might give them 25,000 energy credits. That is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. but more then enough to get a starting ship set up, out fitted, and get your ground crew set up as well with basic white gear. Giving them basic lessons of Expose and Exploit... what ground powers to use.. at beginner level, and maybe even an MK II Resilient Shield Array (DIS) Because All ship enemies you face at the LT only use disruptor... and those shields are very powerful at that level.
By helping new players, and helping friends enjoy the game. Even if they race through it only helps the MMO, because they will be more inclined to not only spend money and go from silver to gold accounts. BUT invite their friends to The MMO as well.
Thank you. Having a community player base that is helpful and supportive to new players is KEY to a successful MMO. Sometimes when someone comes on Grid, at ESD, and ask for help, that they are new to STO. I will help them. Show them around ESD, show them where everything is.
And depending on the feel I get from them I might give them 25,000 energy credits. That is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. but more then enough to get a starting ship set up, out fitted, and get your ground crew set up as well with basic white gear. Giving them basic lessons of Expose and Exploit... what ground powers to use.. at beginner level, and maybe even an MK II Resilient Shield Array (DIS) Because All ship enemies you face at the LT only use disruptor... and those shields are very powerful at that level.
By helping new players, and helping friends enjoy the game. Even if they race through it only helps the MMO, because they will be more inclined to not only spend money and go from silver to gold accounts. BUT invite their friends to The MMO as well.
My hat is off to you, sir, as you show your true worth with this.
This is the worst idea yet. for each toon to grind along to get enough samples to increase there skill instead of just having a master crafter toon is dumb. Do you think James Kirk made his own phaser?
It's quite clear this has nothing to do with slowing crafting. It doesn't even make it harder. It does, however, make it much quicker if you have cash to burn for C-Points just like everything else i've seen in Tribble. Just convert your C-Points to DR for quicker crafting! Days instead of weeks! Woohoo!
"Ferengi Studios" indeed! It's why i disgaree that it was a lazy decision. It is a business decision, and nothing more really.
oh come on everyone one. We've made our point and now it is getting embarrasing. This thread has gone completely off topic and come back a few times but the message is getting lost.
PW and Cryptic must surely have got it by now. The last 30 odd pages have added nothing and now we the pre-f2p player base are starting to sound like a bunch of childish whiners. Worse, all the threats to quit don't really encourage anyone to take the point seriously. If you are going to quit anyway they don't care and if it is a hollow bluff then they don't really care either as you are staying.
I cannot imagine anything more can be added to what has been said and these anxst ridden walls of text just weaken the argument.
If you want to make your point, just say: "I agree with the previous posts +1" rather than drag this post out for no real reason.
If you have a solution that you think is better, there are other forums to express it. Just whining is diluting the argument.
PW and Cryptic must surely have got it by now. The last 30 odd pages have added nothing and now we the pre-f2p player base are starting to sound like a bunch of childish whiners.
Take it as whining if you'd like--I think the sheer number of people posting in this thread and the depth of feeling is significant. The developer silence is deafening.
Worse, all the threats to quit don't really encourage anyone to take the point seriously. If you are going to quit anyway they don't care and if it is a hollow bluff then they don't really care either as you are staying.
Well, my son has quit. Period. He went through with it. He decided he'd rather save his money for something he considers more fun.
I cannot imagine anything more can be added to what has been said and these anxst ridden walls of text just weaken the argument.
If you want to make your point, just say: "I agree with the previous posts +1" rather than drag this post out for no real reason.
If you have a solution that you think is better, there are other forums to express it. Just whining is diluting the argument.
I think you missed the several dozen great posts providing a number of alternative solutions (and then discussing those solutions) that Cryptic could use that would allow monetizing crafting. We understand Cryptic has to make a profit. We've found numerous ways to do that while minimizing the impact on current players.
Worse, all the threats to quit don't really encourage anyone to take the point seriously. If you are going to quit anyway they don't care and if it is a hollow bluff then they don't really care either as you are staying.
A paying player that quits takes $15 dollars out of PWE monthly income. There's a rule of thumb that says a happy customer will sing your praises to one or two friends, while an unhappy customer will badmouth you to to more than a dozen.
Each rage-quit then, could be considered to be lost business on the order of several times the one player.
And believe me, fewer people are bluffing than you'd think. It's easy to bluff if it costs you nothing to quit, but if you pay every month, it's easier to stop spending money every month than it is to keep spending money and swallow your ego.
I run a Klingon House, at our peak, we had thirty members. Five or six have quit for real-world reasons (lost jobs, military deployment, etc..), but we're now down to just two. Myself and a friend of mine from my old job.
Those who gave me a reason for quitting the last three months have all sung the same song. They will not support STO because of the blatant cash-grabs put down the pipe by PWE (TX.5 ships, the Dilithium tax being shoehorned into everything, etc..).
And to be honest, the whole thing smacks of wishful thinking to me. They aren't satisfied with the players willing to pay a Monthly Sub, so they go free to play, hoping for cash donations via the C-Store.
Honestly, if they aren't willing (or aren't able) to pay to play, what makes them think they'll be willing (or able) to pay into the C-Store?
It's not like the Economy is very healthy right now, and with the income disparity growing in the US, it's not like there's a huge middle-ground population that can't afford a Sub but can afford C-Points.
You know, I think I'm beginning to see why Crafting was made to require dilithium.
The Doff system makes it way too easy to get at least 15 samples per. It's no longer time consuming.
My idea: Remove dilithium from crafting, but the tradeoff would be that you can't get samples from Doff Assignments. Heretic, I would like your thoughts.
Combo of nerdrage and wall of text that won't make any difference to the powers that be.
Please explain to me where presenting my reasoning for supporting a change from what is currently in place in crafting on Tribble is either a wall of text or 'nerdrage'. Am I disappointed with Cryptic right now? Yes. Do I like the proposed change? No. Have I suggested reasonable alternatives? Yes. Have I noted support for other reasonable alternatives? Yes. None of that is 'nerdrage'. Angry? No. I reserve anger for something truly important, like those who mistreat my kids or for those who commit malpractice on my patients.
Seriously, go outside for a bit and get some perspective guys.
Just spent about 25 hours hauling stuff moving this weekend from temp housing to our new house. Got plenty of fresh air, thanks for your concern.
BTW--I'm a gal, not a guy. If you gotta use a gender-based term, I'd appreciate you using the correct one. The "Mom" in "Geeky Mom" in my sig is generally a dead giveaway that I'm of the female persuasion.
@Zanshi--they could also increase the number of needed samples to craft an item in orderto account for what Doffs can collect. That would also keep the balance, if a bit artificially.
Specifically, all the Paying Players have no limitations or hurdles to jump over in order to get/do anything. Literally, the game remains unchanged for the subscribing player.
For F2P, you have limits on slots of all kinds (characters, inventory, banking, money), which are fine and dandy. There's also Expansion Packs that the F2P has to pay for, that Subscribers will get as part of their subscription. No new monetary system to turn the entire game into a Pay or Grind situation. There's no Pay to Win. Life for the F2Pers is just a lot slower and less convenient. And there actually seem to be reasons to subscribe (see: DLC Packs).
There's already a lot of stuff in STO that I think would satisfy a Free Player. Missions all the way up to Vice Admiral, lots of optional areas and tons of missions, not the least of which is the Foundry which will be the source of basically endless missions. Maybe later down the line, Cryptic could release a Delta Quadrant DLC that would allow either Subscribers or F2Pers who've bought the Delta Quadrant DLC to pass through a Wormhole to go to an entirely new area of space. Yeah, it'll mean that F2P won't be able to experience the entire game, but there's already tons to do in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants for F2P anyway (Well, if you're Federation, anyway...) Basically, DLC Packs would open up areas outside of the currently mapped sectors. If you're feeling adventurous, maybe even a Mirror Universe DLC pack that'll open up access to a Mirror Alpha Quadrant... what I'm trying to say is, there's lots of room for new material that can be gated off so that F2P will have to pay for it, while there still remains a HUGE amount of content for F2P (IE, Everything that's currently in the game). New Gameplay Updates/Episodes that take place in F2P areas (again, every known area in the game right now) could still be open to everyone. And on the opposite side, you could always make new episodes/gameplay modes exclusive to the DLC areas.
TLDR: There's more than one way to do this, and since Cryptic seems to be TRIBBLE over the current PAYING player base, I think they're doing it wrong.
First off, I've not tested the changes yet. I just resubbed tonight. I plan on playing on the Test Server until F2P hits to earn some cool rewards and test things out.
Anyway, with that out of the way.
I think dilithium costs for crafting is perfectly fine and a good idea. ~ducks~
I feel this way because crafting has always been very easy and very boring, and it's never been difficult at all to fully twink out anyone, your own characters or your fleet mate. A lot of people love this though and I can't blame them as seeing this as the benefit of leveling crafting. But I felt leveling crafting was really easy and quick, even when it came out for KDF my red toon maxed it out swiftly. Frankly I feel crafting the best things should be more of an investment than it is now.
I feel it will be good for the economy so there are actually expensive and hard to acquire items that people can craft and put up, as a means of Energy Credits revenue. It will certainly hurt people who craft everything for their fleet, and we will likely lose that, but I don't think its so bad for the health of the game.
That said, I have no idea if the current dilithium prices are right. They could likely be less. I'm also not sure if this is the case, but I hope only rare and very rare crafted items cost dilithium. Common and uncommon should just be schematics and datasamples.
I would also like to be able to post items I craft in the Exchange for Dilithium Ore instead of Energy Credits, or a combination of both. This could be a way for crafters to recoup lost dilithium. Since refining dilithium is time gated, I don't see this being exploited too badly.
I for one am not happy with the integration of dilithium to crafting. Seems subscribers/lifetimers are being punished with these changes. Leave the current system on Holodeck as is for subscribers/lifetimers. If you want to add this system to just f2p users, be my guest. It would at least give them a reason to subscribe.
First off, I've not tested the changes yet. I just resubbed tonight. I plan on playing on the Test Server until F2P hits to earn some cool rewards and test things out.
Anyway, with that out of the way.
I think dilithium costs for crafting is perfectly fine and a good idea. ~ducks~
I feel this way because crafting has always been very easy and very boring, and it's never been difficult at all to fully twink out anyone, your own characters or your fleet mate. A lot of people love this though and I can't blame them as seeing this as the benefit of leveling crafting. But I felt leveling crafting was really easy and quick, even when it came out for KDF my red toon maxed it out swiftly. Frankly I feel crafting the best things should be more of an investment than it is now.
I feel it will be good for the economy so there are actually expensive and hard to acquire items that people can craft and put up, as a means of Energy Credits revenue. It will certainly hurt people who craft everything for their fleet, and we will likely lose that, but I don't think its so bad for the health of the game.
That said, I have no idea if the current dilithium prices are right. They could likely be less. I'm also not sure if this is the case, but I hope only rare and very rare crafted items cost dilithium. Common and uncommon should just be schematics and datasamples.
I would also like to be able to post items I craft in the Exchange for Dilithium Ore instead of Energy Credits, or a combination of both. This could be a way for crafters to recoup lost dilithium. Since refining dilithium is time gated, I don't see this being exploited too badly.
Anyway, that's my 2 credits.
Well, you definitely have some great input. However, there are some small oversights, things you may not have considered, due to not having leveled up from 1-51 on Tribble yet.
If you're just now starting the F2P beta, then you don't realize how badly gated Dilithium is. Unless they've changed it, I don't think you even get Dilithium for ranking up (Lt. -> Lt Comm. -> Commander -> Captain, etc.) as a gold player anymore. If you do, it's a pittance. Unless you purposely go after Daily missions and other activities that provide Dilithium, you can literally get to VA without having any (again, thats assuming that you no longer receive Dilithium for ranking up as a gold player.) All normal missions do not provide Dilithium.
Dilithium is rewarded to players as "Dilithium Ore" which has to be refined into "Refined Dilithium." There's a limit that is currently set to 8000 ore per day. This means that most things you'll craft will take several days *JUST* to refine enough Dilithium to craft a single item. Tier XI item costs range from:
5290 for a personal shield or armor
7945 for a single ground weapon or console
15,834 for a ship weapon
18,150 for a single piece of the Aegis set
31,745 for an Impulse Engine, Shield Array, or Deflector
Cryptic put Dilithium into the game as what is sometimes referred to in free-to-play games as a "pay gate." It's there to put a block on your progress unless you spend lots of time grinding it out, or pay them to get more (though this will currently be indirectly, as you'll buy CPoints, and then use the CPoints to buy the Dilithium from other players). It is doubtful that Cryptic will allow direct trading of Dilithium between players as they can't make money off that.
Even if we could auction off crafted items for Dilithium, the profit gained would be minuscule at best. Consider that with the current system, not only do you have to grind for the anomalies and data samples, you also have to grind for the Dilithium as well. Well, there is another source of items in the game you can get for *just* Dilithium: The former emblem, honor, and Marks vendors. And whats worse is that the items they offer typically have better stats for only a little more cost (typically less than 1 days worth of refinement).
7,555 for personal shields and armor (2,265 difference)
11,350 for a ground weapon and ship consoles (3,405 difference)
22,620 for ship weapons (6,786 Difference)
45,350 for an Impulse Engine, Shield Array, or Deflector (13,605 difference)
The point is, as things stand on Tribble right now:
It's not worth the time or material investment to craft with their current system.
There's just no way to make even a reasonable profit, if that's what you're after.
There's no way to get the critical component (Dilithium) donated to you if your crafting for fleet-mates and/or friends.
Crafting may be boring on live, but it offers a reasonable endgame alternative to Grinding emblems and farming honor for gear. Crafting is a part of the 3 legged stool (emblems, honor, and crafting) that support the equipment needs of players at endgame. By making all the equipment cost dilithium in F2P, that stool is down to one very wobbly leg.
To be completely blunt, there are MANY better ways of making crafting more interesting than just adding a dilithium tax. Doing so doesn't change a thing about crafting to make it more interesting. It just penalizes the crafters.
You know, I think I'm beginning to see why Crafting was made to require dilithium.
The Doff system makes it way too easy to get at least 15 samples per. It's no longer time consuming.
My idea: Remove dilithium from crafting, but the tradeoff would be that you can't get samples from Doff Assignments. Heretic, I would like your thoughts.
The original idea was to try to specialize different parts of the game towards being better or worse for certain types of things; anomalies was something that there was some thought towards making easier to get via the duty officer assignment system.
I do need to look at the numbers for sample gathering; it's possible I was overly-enthusiastic in the pursuit of this goal.
Comments
I'd rather self destruct this ship than see it in the hands of the Borg.
An analogy, but an apt one.
This absolutely this !
Cryptic, PLEASE change this !
NO DILITHIUM FOR GOLD MEMBERS CRAFTING !
AND
PLEASE give us BACK our VA ship token !
There are plenty of ways to make things "harder" than just slapping a Dilithium tax on it. There have been a few incredibly good ideas thrown out by players that make crafting worth doing and still have some factor of "hardness" to it. My personal favorite is Katic's proposal. The only RD involved is through optional means. Give us the choice of using it rather than ramming it down our throats at every turn.
What Cryptic's doing is the lazy person's way out. What players are suggesting are a win-win on both sides.
As for paying, I am, trust me. I have another 18-ish months before I break even on the LTS I bought. This crafting change (proposed at the moment, to be fair) means I'm not going to get what I paid for in the spring.
Actually what Cryptic is doing is nothing less than nickle and diming the community. It's that simple really. It's also effectively killing the social aspect of crafting as well. The only thing i have to think about is when i'm going to quit playing at this point.
There's plenty of ways to make crafting harder. They simply do not want to use them as it makes no hard cash. Let me think: 41 days to craft a full set up for a Cruiser because of refinement time, or just trade C-Points for RD and get it all through a vendor? You do the math.
Actually, I think it's both. They are lazy by doing the easiest thing they could think of (outside of keeping it like it currently is on Holodeck) AND money-grubbing by practically forcing people to buy Dilithium with CP for their crafting.
I LOVE the: "We can't make everyone happy." qoute lol
Really ! It's the most absurd thing that can come out of a dev's mouth at this stage in the game, (no pun intended)
WHO EXACTLY HAVE YOU MADE HAPPY LATELY?
Not the Klingon players, who've been promised this that and the other thing and got NOTHING.
Not PVP'rs. PVP's been ignored, unbalanced and has all but withered and died.
Not the community at large, who's gone without any real content for how long? Promises made, broken, ect. Been mislead, mistreated and taken for granted and now we have this F2P money grab !
We were told, Gold players won't notice any change with the F2P conversion WRONG. We notice that content was delayed AGAIN.
We noticed the economy changes, where EVERYTHING is going to cost dilitium. And the grind's been turned up to the maximum !
We noticed no new ship tokens when you are promoted, ( I mean we had to riot to get our ship tokens back for Pete's sake ! ). We noticed crafting's been ruined of all practical Fleet use, which is really unfortunate for
fleets. But hey, Fleet Starbases are coming ! Refinance your house now! Imagine the dilithium cost on those babies !!!!
Veteran rewards given, taken away, changed, and almost ignored or forgotten.
Are the lifetimer's happy? I mean, hey, we get a 400 a month stipend right ? Stahl says, C store prices will if anything, go down. Then Tribble testing starts and woo hoo !, everything anyone would want, has gone up exactly 400 C points ! OH JEEZE THANKS ! If I were to trade 400 points for dilithium, that would get me what exactly? One lump of dilithium ore maybe? How much does a cup of coffee cost at Club 47? 40,000 ? !!!!!
Then let's not forget you taking away our Merits we worked for.
Then there is that whole exchange rate thing that I still don't have a clue about, but I know I'm getting robbed! I just know it !
Then there is that whole Excelsior BS, DON'T get me started on that one !!!!!!
The Commander level Excelsior and Nebula have been moved to the C Store now. And now THAT EXCELSIOR is the only one with the transwarp....... Smooth move Cryptic !
NOOOOOOO NOONE'S getting ANYTHING taken away from them they said.... RIGHT !
The silver player matrix gives NO INCENTIVE WHAT SO EVER to go GOLD. So again, lifers and subscribers can go pound dilitium ore in the mines of Rura Penthe !
So what if you kept this game going up to this point with hardly little more than promises and an endless content drought to show for it. Hey, go test free to play on tribble, YOU'LL LOVE IT !
Level another Character, playing the same missions over and over again, GET USED TO IT !
GRIND BABY GRIND !
Come on Cryptic !
"Can't make everyone happy" LOL !!!!!!
That's absolutely HYSTERICAL !
HOW'S ABOUT YOU TRY to make SOME happy ? I wouldn't want you to overexert yourselves on our account.
Set the bar really low why don't cha !
You are so right
No dilithum for gold members crafing and VA ship token vet reward
They could make crafting harder by increasing the amount of samples one needs for an item,or adding a base item for you to upgrade......but adding Dilithium is a money grab for the simple fact it's the only thing in game that you can trade for C-points.
If they wanted to do that, they could go back to where we only got one anomaly every time we scanned one, like they had back at release. Now they're making it even easier to get higher end anomalies with the multi-phasic events. The anomaly prices, from a quick glance, have not increased in cost. They clearly aren't trying to make it harder to craft items that way. The only thing that changed is the dilithium charge.
Cryptic, if you want to gate crafting, increase the anomalies needed, increase the trace particles needed, increase the number of crafting points needed to level up to make the very high end stuff, and sell the rare traces and anomaly samples in the c-store instead. THAT will give you the money you want without having such a negative impact on fleet and alt crafting, AND it will drive down the cost of rare traces on the Exchange, which is something you also said you wanted. It will give people the option to pay or farm. You will see both, and you will actually make some people very happy with this option. Right now you badly need to make some people happy, too.
Thank you. Having a community player base that is helpful and supportive to new players is KEY to a successful MMO. Sometimes when someone comes on Grid, at ESD, and ask for help, that they are new to STO. I will help them. Show them around ESD, show them where everything is.
And depending on the feel I get from them I might give them 25,000 energy credits. That is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. but more then enough to get a starting ship set up, out fitted, and get your ground crew set up as well with basic white gear. Giving them basic lessons of Expose and Exploit... what ground powers to use.. at beginner level, and maybe even an MK II Resilient Shield Array (DIS) Because All ship enemies you face at the LT only use disruptor... and those shields are very powerful at that level.
By helping new players, and helping friends enjoy the game. Even if they race through it only helps the MMO, because they will be more inclined to not only spend money and go from silver to gold accounts. BUT invite their friends to The MMO as well.
My hat is off to you, sir, as you show your true worth with this.
Spock designed it, Scotty built it.
"Ferengi Studios" indeed! It's why i disgaree that it was a lazy decision. It is a business decision, and nothing more really.
PW and Cryptic must surely have got it by now. The last 30 odd pages have added nothing and now we the pre-f2p player base are starting to sound like a bunch of childish whiners. Worse, all the threats to quit don't really encourage anyone to take the point seriously. If you are going to quit anyway they don't care and if it is a hollow bluff then they don't really care either as you are staying.
I cannot imagine anything more can be added to what has been said and these anxst ridden walls of text just weaken the argument.
If you want to make your point, just say: "I agree with the previous posts +1" rather than drag this post out for no real reason.
If you have a solution that you think is better, there are other forums to express it. Just whining is diluting the argument.
Well, my son has quit. Period. He went through with it. He decided he'd rather save his money for something he considers more fun.
I think you missed the several dozen great posts providing a number of alternative solutions (and then discussing those solutions) that Cryptic could use that would allow monetizing crafting. We understand Cryptic has to make a profit. We've found numerous ways to do that while minimizing the impact on current players.
A paying player that quits takes $15 dollars out of PWE monthly income. There's a rule of thumb that says a happy customer will sing your praises to one or two friends, while an unhappy customer will badmouth you to to more than a dozen.
Each rage-quit then, could be considered to be lost business on the order of several times the one player.
And believe me, fewer people are bluffing than you'd think. It's easy to bluff if it costs you nothing to quit, but if you pay every month, it's easier to stop spending money every month than it is to keep spending money and swallow your ego.
I run a Klingon House, at our peak, we had thirty members. Five or six have quit for real-world reasons (lost jobs, military deployment, etc..), but we're now down to just two. Myself and a friend of mine from my old job.
Those who gave me a reason for quitting the last three months have all sung the same song. They will not support STO because of the blatant cash-grabs put down the pipe by PWE (TX.5 ships, the Dilithium tax being shoehorned into everything, etc..).
And to be honest, the whole thing smacks of wishful thinking to me. They aren't satisfied with the players willing to pay a Monthly Sub, so they go free to play, hoping for cash donations via the C-Store.
Honestly, if they aren't willing (or aren't able) to pay to play, what makes them think they'll be willing (or able) to pay into the C-Store?
It's not like the Economy is very healthy right now, and with the income disparity growing in the US, it's not like there's a huge middle-ground population that can't afford a Sub but can afford C-Points.
Combo of nerdrage and wall of text that won't make any difference to the powers that be.
Seriously, go outside for a bit and get some perspective guys.
Walls of text won't make a difference, but players leaving, and telling all their friends not to bother, will.
The posts are warning, the exodus is the event we're warning about.
We'd rather try and save this game by giving feedback than doom it by leaving.
The Doff system makes it way too easy to get at least 15 samples per. It's no longer time consuming.
My idea: Remove dilithium from crafting, but the tradeoff would be that you can't get samples from Doff Assignments. Heretic, I would like your thoughts.
Just spent about 25 hours hauling stuff moving this weekend from temp housing to our new house. Got plenty of fresh air, thanks for your concern.
BTW--I'm a gal, not a guy. If you gotta use a gender-based term, I'd appreciate you using the correct one. The "Mom" in "Geeky Mom" in my sig is generally a dead giveaway that I'm of the female persuasion.
@Zanshi--they could also increase the number of needed samples to craft an item in orderto account for what Doffs can collect. That would also keep the balance, if a bit artificially.
DC Universe goes F2P Tuesday and has the right idea about how to handle things.
Evidence here: http://www.dcuniverseonline.com/free/
Specifically, all the Paying Players have no limitations or hurdles to jump over in order to get/do anything. Literally, the game remains unchanged for the subscribing player.
For F2P, you have limits on slots of all kinds (characters, inventory, banking, money), which are fine and dandy. There's also Expansion Packs that the F2P has to pay for, that Subscribers will get as part of their subscription. No new monetary system to turn the entire game into a Pay or Grind situation. There's no Pay to Win. Life for the F2Pers is just a lot slower and less convenient. And there actually seem to be reasons to subscribe (see: DLC Packs).
There's already a lot of stuff in STO that I think would satisfy a Free Player. Missions all the way up to Vice Admiral, lots of optional areas and tons of missions, not the least of which is the Foundry which will be the source of basically endless missions. Maybe later down the line, Cryptic could release a Delta Quadrant DLC that would allow either Subscribers or F2Pers who've bought the Delta Quadrant DLC to pass through a Wormhole to go to an entirely new area of space. Yeah, it'll mean that F2P won't be able to experience the entire game, but there's already tons to do in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants for F2P anyway (Well, if you're Federation, anyway...) Basically, DLC Packs would open up areas outside of the currently mapped sectors. If you're feeling adventurous, maybe even a Mirror Universe DLC pack that'll open up access to a Mirror Alpha Quadrant... what I'm trying to say is, there's lots of room for new material that can be gated off so that F2P will have to pay for it, while there still remains a HUGE amount of content for F2P (IE, Everything that's currently in the game). New Gameplay Updates/Episodes that take place in F2P areas (again, every known area in the game right now) could still be open to everyone. And on the opposite side, you could always make new episodes/gameplay modes exclusive to the DLC areas.
TLDR: There's more than one way to do this, and since Cryptic seems to be TRIBBLE over the current PAYING player base, I think they're doing it wrong.
First off, thank you for informing of DCU going F2P, if STO goes under (as I believe it very well might), it may hold my interest.
I was going to go to CO if STO failed, but this gives me a way to avoid PWE entirely.
As to your DLC Delta Quadrant Expansion, I would actually prefer a Gamma Quadrant expansion, which we already have a ready-made canon Wormhole for.
Words of wisdom -
Anyway, with that out of the way.
I think dilithium costs for crafting is perfectly fine and a good idea. ~ducks~
I feel this way because crafting has always been very easy and very boring, and it's never been difficult at all to fully twink out anyone, your own characters or your fleet mate. A lot of people love this though and I can't blame them as seeing this as the benefit of leveling crafting. But I felt leveling crafting was really easy and quick, even when it came out for KDF my red toon maxed it out swiftly. Frankly I feel crafting the best things should be more of an investment than it is now.
I feel it will be good for the economy so there are actually expensive and hard to acquire items that people can craft and put up, as a means of Energy Credits revenue. It will certainly hurt people who craft everything for their fleet, and we will likely lose that, but I don't think its so bad for the health of the game.
That said, I have no idea if the current dilithium prices are right. They could likely be less. I'm also not sure if this is the case, but I hope only rare and very rare crafted items cost dilithium. Common and uncommon should just be schematics and datasamples.
I would also like to be able to post items I craft in the Exchange for Dilithium Ore instead of Energy Credits, or a combination of both. This could be a way for crafters to recoup lost dilithium. Since refining dilithium is time gated, I don't see this being exploited too badly.
Anyway, that's my 2 credits.
Well, you definitely have some great input. However, there are some small oversights, things you may not have considered, due to not having leveled up from 1-51 on Tribble yet.
- If you're just now starting the F2P beta, then you don't realize how badly gated Dilithium is. Unless they've changed it, I don't think you even get Dilithium for ranking up (Lt. -> Lt Comm. -> Commander -> Captain, etc.) as a gold player anymore. If you do, it's a pittance. Unless you purposely go after Daily missions and other activities that provide Dilithium, you can literally get to VA without having any (again, thats assuming that you no longer receive Dilithium for ranking up as a gold player.) All normal missions do not provide Dilithium.
- Dilithium is rewarded to players as "Dilithium Ore" which has to be refined into "Refined Dilithium." There's a limit that is currently set to 8000 ore per day. This means that most things you'll craft will take several days *JUST* to refine enough Dilithium to craft a single item. Tier XI item costs range from:
- 5290 for a personal shield or armor
- 7945 for a single ground weapon or console
- 15,834 for a ship weapon
- 18,150 for a single piece of the Aegis set
- 31,745 for an Impulse Engine, Shield Array, or Deflector
- Cryptic put Dilithium into the game as what is sometimes referred to in free-to-play games as a "pay gate." It's there to put a block on your progress unless you spend lots of time grinding it out, or pay them to get more (though this will currently be indirectly, as you'll buy CPoints, and then use the CPoints to buy the Dilithium from other players). It is doubtful that Cryptic will allow direct trading of Dilithium between players as they can't make money off that.
- Even if we could auction off crafted items for Dilithium, the profit gained would be minuscule at best. Consider that with the current system, not only do you have to grind for the anomalies and data samples, you also have to grind for the Dilithium as well. Well, there is another source of items in the game you can get for *just* Dilithium: The former emblem, honor, and Marks vendors. And whats worse is that the items they offer typically have better stats for only a little more cost (typically less than 1 days worth of refinement).
- 7,555 for personal shields and armor (2,265 difference)
- 11,350 for a ground weapon and ship consoles (3,405 difference)
- 22,620 for ship weapons (6,786 Difference)
- 45,350 for an Impulse Engine, Shield Array, or Deflector (13,605 difference)
The point is, as things stand on Tribble right now:I like you..
The original idea was to try to specialize different parts of the game towards being better or worse for certain types of things; anomalies was something that there was some thought towards making easier to get via the duty officer assignment system.
I do need to look at the numbers for sample gathering; it's possible I was overly-enthusiastic in the pursuit of this goal.