Let me repeat this: The developers did not balance the Rhode Island. Again, I can link you to CaptainGeko saying it's overpowered.
Overpowered is not balanced. Thus you are wrong. That the developers made the ship unbalanced intentionally does not change the fact that it's unbalanced. Thus your statement, that the developers balance the ships, is fundamentally wrong. No way around that.
Would you care to prove that I don't know what type of MMORPG that STO is?
Sure, go back and read your posts. Done.
You dismiss everything you don't like or that doesn't fit into your fallacious view of the game. Like PvP. Or Fleet Actions. Or actual balance.
While you may have a different VIEW of the game, you suggest that your view DEFINES the game. It does not. Especially since your view intentionally ignores large portions of the game.
If you truly thought that I had or have no clue as to what I'm talking about, then you would not be responding to my posts with attempts to dismiss what I say simply because it might challenge your own perceptions and expectations regarding STO.
Nope. Actually I'm just doing it for ****s and giggles. You don't know what you're talking about. Your statements about CO prove that and devalue anything else you might say. That's just fact. Sorry. If you don't like it you should probably quit pretending to know stuff you don't.
I'm not overlooking anything, I'll get to those other postings in my own time.
You already responded to the posts, you just overlooked all the facts that were inconvenient and showed that you were trying to speak out of turn about stuff you don't know. Which, well, is a theme for you.
If you tried to have an honest conversation instead then this might be interesting as opposed to amusing, but hey... you just keep dancing and I'll just keep laughing. I mean, knock yourself out... but it seems like you're going through a lot of effort just to provide me with a few measly chuckles over your antics.
You are pretending to know more than everyone else and making yourself look foolish in the process. Kindly admit your mistakes and stop doing it. Ignorance is just dripping from your reply.
No, I am not pretending. I am exercising my privilege to express my own opinions and observations of these forums, the posters, the game and the developers. Just as you are. The difference is that I am not at odds with the developers decisions about their game.
I see the game differently. We can all agree on that 100%.
I think that the way in which people come to play STO with their own preconceived notions and expectations of what they will find and experience in STO influences their attitudes about the game, the developers and other posters most especially when that game experience is at odds with their notions and expectations.
If these same players were to see STO for what it really is, what it offers, how it is meant to be played, then their experience would be better, more satisfying, more enjoyable. That is simple logic, not ignorance.
Fleet actions, for one. Top players get very rare and rare items, accolades and trophies (everyone else gets an uncommon). If a pay-to-win ship was played entirely solo in PvE then yes, it wouldn't have an impact on game balance -- but that is definitely not the case.
I don't know about you, but if I enter a fleet action and someone is already running up the score, then I help'em finish it and then try to get into another just so I get a shot at that "epic lewtz". I'm always up for a good competitive Fleet Action where I try to maximize my DPS using the tactics and gear as best as I can.
Do you every worry or consider that some player may have done a "pre-made" PvP build geared for high DPS output and then entered the very same Fleet Action that you do with a "normal" or "common" build and find that you just can't keep up with his DPS?
Yet arbitrarily breaking a certain facet of the game's mechanics namely Tier contentions via the C-Store for a quick buck is fine?
Unless I'm mistaken, the developers control and dictate the tier system for the ships. I accept where they choose to place any particular ship and then decide on which one I use based on my own personal preferences. I never worry about any one ship within a tier being any better than any other.
I'm all for the STO devs adding any options they can to enhance the game play experience. If those options find their way to the C-Store then I might look and buy something that I like.
I understand that Cryptic offers completely optional costumes on the C-Store for my controllable avatar whether it be humanoid uniforms or ships. I'm ok with them charging a fee for that something something that I just have to have to use in my game of STO. I understand that as a consumer that I have no obligation whatsoever to ever purchase anything from the C-Store. I also understand that I can experience all the missions, featured episodes, patrols, fleet actions and STF's just with the freebie ships and gear that are coded into the game.
Cryptic will have to account for these X.5 ships when designing new missions. That means increased difficulty. While not necessarily a bad thing, Cryptic's track record with balancing PvE NPC's is hit or miss. Also, while purely speculative at this point, it's not unreasonable to think that the reason the STF's are getting a Chuck Norris mode is because there will be more powerful ships to run them. So P2W C-$tore ships will definitely affect PvE gameplay.
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They don't HAVE to account for the new ships. And probably won't because that would mean visiting and changing every single mission, episode or series in the game. I think they'll leave the difficulty levels up to the players.
About this "balancing PvE NPC's" - how can you balance the NPCs that follow their own designated ruleset against the ruleset that players follow? We've probably all experienced the challenging Romulan Warbirds in the DSEs, or the Breen ships in the Deferi series. I found them somewhat challenging but would not go so far as to think that they needed some sort of "balancing". I understand the nature of war is not fair and equal but realize that this is a game and the devs have to go somewhat easy on us.
About the STFs, I've only ever completed the first one, multiple times, but I never found or saw anything where there was a competition amongst the team members. Am I missing something there? I would think that additional options for the players will only serve to make the experience more enjoyable for all parties.
Do you every worry or consider that some player may have done a "pre-made" PvP build geared for high DPS output and then entered the very same Fleet Action that you do with a "normal" or "common" build and find that you just can't keep up with his DPS?
Yeah, but that person didn't buy access to that build, you can do it too. Also there are quite a few different ways to make a high DPS build, the skill point system gives you a greater return on focused versatility rather than pure min/maxing. If you foucsed on damage to the point you forsake all else you'd compromise yourself, for example, lacking the survivability to consistantly apply that DPS. Even if you can prove there is one superior DPS build that will always outperform others in a FA, all players still have equal access to it.
About the STFs, I've only ever completed the first one, multiple times, but I never found or saw anything where there was a competition amongst the team members. Am I missing something there? I would think that additional options for the players will only serve to make the experience more enjoyable for all parties.
You're not competing with your team members but you are competing with others in general in that your performance is rewarded insomuch as the mission is more difficult to complete than solo PvE, in short the rewards are greater but they have to be earned, just like the Aegis set has to be earned by collecting samples and levellign your R&D skill.
And to think...people acted like I was being paranoid and just giving into speculation. Funny how that works.
Ah! So we do have some additional information of where the new ships will arrive in the grander scheme of the tier system. I look forward to checking out these new ships to see which one will be my next purchase.
Ah! So we do have some additional information of where the new ships will arrive in the grander scheme of the tier system. I look forward to checking out these new ships to see which one will be my next purchase.
Thanks for point that out!
They sell you one..score...I collect ships and will now end up buying none of these new ones.....nice.
They don't HAVE to account for the new ships. And probably won't because that would mean visiting and changing every single mission, episode or series in the game.
New missions. Not every mission. And more powerful ships mean PvE gets facerolled faster than it does atm. Sure, Cryptic doesn't HAVE to account for their shiny new X.5 ships when designing missions, but it would be smart to do so. Of course, you'd figure it would also be smart to not trash game balance either, but X.5 is here. :rolleyes:
About the STFs, I've only ever completed the first one, multiple times, but I never found or saw anything where there was a competition amongst the team members. Am I missing something there? I would think that additional options for the players will only serve to make the experience more enjoyable for all parties.
Did I mention competition between players in STFs? I referenced the revamped STFs, specifically the new more difficult version, as one possible way for Cryptic to try and force people to buy the new pay-for-power ships by making the STF's too difficult to complete with the free ships. Again, that's purely speculation but since Cryptic is adding pay-for-power ships in the C-$tore it stands to reason they'll try to make it worth the effort.
And? When you start wrong you end wrong. Your posts aren't fine wine, they don't get better as time goes on.
Let me repeat this: The developers did not balance the Rhode Island. Again, I can link you to CaptainGeko saying it's overpowered.
Overpowered is not balanced. Thus you are wrong. That the developers made the ship unbalanced intentionally does not change the fact that it's unbalanced. Thus your statement, that the developers balance the ships, is fundamentally wrong. No way around that.
I don't see where I was wrong when you take in the whole sentence that I made. I stated that the Cryptic devs balance the ships according to their own internal rules and not in accordance with what players dictate. The devs chose to make this ship in this condition or manner and not in accordance with what forum posters provided in feedback about it. As the developers they are well within their rights to do or make anything in this game in the manner that they see fit. Our choice as players is whether to buy and use that ship or not.
So the good CaptainGeko said that the ship is OP? OP in relation to what? The common ships at that tier that have been in game since closed beta? Yes, I would consider that term appropriate when used to describe that comparison of the ships abilities when placed in a PvP match. OP in relation to PvE missions and episodes available to players at the rank for that tier of ship, no, I wouldn't consider it "OP".
You dismiss everything you don't like or that doesn't fit into your fallacious view of the game. Like PvP. Or Fleet Actions. Or actual balance.
While you may have a different VIEW of the game, you suggest that your view DEFINES the game. It does not. Especially since your view intentionally ignores large portions of the game.
I have a different view of STO and all these wonderful new options coming available to we, the players.
I see no fallacies whatsoever in my stated opinion on how I view STO. The more I interact with the posters on these forums, the more I realize the truth of the players allowing their own preconceived notions and expectations of STO to override and become in conflict with the reality of the STO experience that they find which leads to them becoming frustrated or mad at the game, the developers and other forum posters.
I am fully aware and cognizant of what sort of impact on PvP and PvE Fleet Actions that this new ship will have. I figure the PvP min/maxers will have already come up with some sort of build or counter to the RI and they will just move right along until the next ship comes in and then they'll repeat the process of adapt, improvise and overcome. It doesn't "change" the underlying game. And the only "balance" that this ship, or any other introduced ship, will have any effect on is in the minds of PvP players as they scramble to figure out just how counter it's abilities when they face it on the PvP battlefield.
Nope. Actually I'm just doing it for ****s and giggles. You don't know what you're talking about. Your statements about CO prove that and devalue anything else you might say. That's just fact. Sorry. If you don't like it you should probably quit pretending to know stuff you don't.
You already responded to the posts, you just overlooked all the facts that were inconvenient and showed that you were trying to speak out of turn about stuff you don't know. Which, well, is a theme for you.
If you tried to have an honest conversation instead then this might be interesting as opposed to amusing, but hey... you just keep dancing and I'll just keep laughing. I mean, knock yourself out... but it seems like you're going through a lot of effort just to provide me with a few measly chuckles over your antics.
I am trying to have an honest conversation and share my own opinions and views of STO. I am a bit tired now, but I am fixated or focused on this whole notion / expectation issue.
I am also trying to understand, by engaging posters such as yourself, the mindset of the players that are so at odds with every little decision that Dan and his devs make regarding STO.
I view the game in a different way from other players. I "play" the game in a different way from other players. I came to STO expecting to find the sort of game and game play that I actually do experience in STO. I'm happy and content in my views of and experience within STO.
I came expecting to play a character that is a captain of a ship in the ST IP. Based on what I've seen and experienced with CoH, CoV and CO, I assumed that Cryptic would make the game in that same manner and that I would be "directing" my character thru various missions and episodes in the STO galaxy while trying to capture some of that Star Trek mystique. I was quite happy and content with what I found in STO. What I didn't find was the WoW type of progression-oriented, must-raid-endlessly to gear up with epic-lewtz for end-game battles with the boss to win the game type of stressed-out experience. STO is relaxing, fun, amusing and entertaining.
What I have seen is like a TV series where I control my characters participation in the show. I've found that at any rank or level in the game, the very same experience occurs. I don't mind watching reruns of the any of the ST shows and I don't mind "playing" any reruns of the missions. The customization is wonderful, the costumes and props are great. The content directly relates to the players rank as they rise up all the way to VA/LG.
I do have issues with the concepts surrounding the STFs based on all of my preceding STO experiences.
The premise of the STFs do not fit in with the rest of the game, but the storylines do. I understand why the devs added in the STFs just to give those "progression-oriented-end-game-raiding" type of hardcore players SOME sort of dungeon in which to "feel like they're playing a real MMO". But I would never consider the STF's anything like the "end-game" content of WoW that I've experienced. And STO's story never really ever ends as each generation carries on from the one preceding it.
All in all, I think that the devs have done a wonderful job in providing this Star Trek like experience. I think they made a valiant effort to provide something even for the PvPers and Hardcore Raiders although I do understand that Cryptic really doesn't "do" those sorts of play-styles well. Cryptic makes fun simple games that are relatively easy to develop, produce and release.
So it all boils down to me being at odds with forum posters who constantly are frustrated with their STO experience and vent that anger and frustration at the devs about every little issue or decision that the devs make.
TLDR;
Somebody somewhere ain't having fun in STO for whatever reason. I'm having fun enjoying STO so they must be doing something wrong somehow someway because I've always thought that we play games just to have fun and be entertained.
Since I am not a PVP player and strictly a PVE player I wouldnt have an issue with this.:D
Then why do you need "Pay To Win Ships" its not like you cant take the worst ship in the game strip it
of everything but one beam array and faceroll all the PvE in the game on elite.
Then why do you need "Pay To Win Ships" its not like you cant take the worst ship in the game strip it
of everything but one beam array and faceroll all the PvE in the game on elite.
Probably because a shiny new paint and new starship smell is not enough. You need more Boffs consoles and such to have that roflstomp goodness last.
So then you guys DO realize that STO is just "Champions in Space", costumed in the ST IP, already?
Wonderful! Then you understand just what sort of MMORPG STO is and you "get it"? Outstanding!
Champions Online is an MMO that has PvP where unbalanced and Pay-To-Win items are not available in PvP. Cool, eh?
I don't know about you, but if I enter a fleet action and someone is already running up the score, then I help'em finish it and then try to get into another just so I get a shot at that "epic lewtz". I'm always up for a good competitive Fleet Action where I try to maximize my DPS using the tactics and gear as best as I can.
Do you every worry or consider that some player may have done a "pre-made" PvP build geared for high DPS output and then entered the very same Fleet Action that you do with a "normal" or "common" build and find that you just can't keep up with his DPS?
Let's not fool ourselves -- the problem with overpowered ships and abilities has been, is, and will be primarily PvP. There is some effect in PvE, but it's not the primary focus of this thread.
Then why do you need "Pay To Win Ships" its not like you cant take the worst ship in the game strip it
of everything but one beam array and faceroll all the PvE in the game on elite.
Probably because a shiny new paint and new starship smell is not enough. You need more Boffs consoles and such to have that roflstomp goodness last.
Hey, I've actually done some B'tran exploration missions on elite in my Nova, 'stock' non Rhode Island version btw.
It was very difficult and I actually die doing it... well, when a torpedo salvo does over double your hull points before shields/resists that's kinda to be expected...
So you can't quite take it quite to the level you promote there
Also, you can add more options to the game 'without' unbalancing what is currently there.
Pyryck's main failing, I think, is his flawed view that the Devs are infallible. His viewpoint of STO as pure theme park isn't the issue at all, since him treating it like that has no ill effect on anything at all.
He's correct inasmuch as it's their tier system. Where he's wrong is in thinking that this autoamtically means that everything they release is balanced. That's like thinking everything signed into law by your favorite governing body is perfect, even if that law says, for instance, "TRIBBLE is okay now, but only if the victim was wearing a short skirt at the time." It's clearly stupid, but you don't care at all because, hey, the government passed it, so it must be awesome! There's a technical term for this, but it escapes me, and the only equivalents I can think of would earn me infractions.
But anyway. About the ship.
What has happened, at the moment, is an anomaly that clearly breaks the structure of the game's tier progression, something Pyryck seems to think doesn't exist. More disturbingly, they not only appear to plan more ships on the same tier, but on higher tiers, effectively invalidating the free offerings in competitive play up to, but not including, T5.
You cannot simply devise a counter-build to a statistically superior ship, as Pyryck appears to believe. You can have a build that can beat it, but against a player of equal skill, you will always be at a disadvantage.
Releasing more ships of the same tier will technically balance it out, so ultimately, it isn't balance that's the issue.
The issue here is that Cryptic is building a pay gate for power. If you want to dominate your tier, you have to buy one of these fancy, statistically (if marginally) superior ships. That is the problem. If these new ships had identical layouts to their free counterparts, then all of this would be a non-issue. But this isn't the case at all.
Pyryck's main failing, I think, is his flawed view that the Devs are infallible. His viewpoint of STO as pure theme park isn't the issue at all, since him treating it like that has no ill effect on anything at all.
He's correct inasmuch as it's their tier system. Where he's wrong is in thinking that this autoamtically means that everything they release is balanced. That's like thinking everything signed into law by your favorite governing body is perfect, even if that law says, for instance, "TRIBBLE is okay now, but only if the victim was wearing a short skirt at the time." It's clearly stupid, but you don't care at all because, hey, the government passed it, so it must be awesome! There's a technical term for this, but it escapes me, and the only equivalents I can think of would earn me infractions.
But anyway. About the ship.
What has happened, at the moment, is an anomaly that clearly breaks the structure of the game's tier progression, something Pyryck seems to think doesn't exist. More disturbingly, they not only appear to plan more ships on the same tier, but on higher tiers, effectively invalidating the free offerings in competitive play up to, but not including, T5.
You cannot simply devise a counter-build to a statistically superior ship, as Pyryck appears to believe. You can have a build that can beat it, but against a player of equal skill, you will always be at a disadvantage.
Releasing more ships of the same tier will technically balance it out, so ultimately, it isn't balance that's the issue.
The issue here is that Cryptic is building a pay gate for power. If you want to dominate your tier, you have to buy one of these fancy, statistically (if marginally) superior ships. That is the problem. If these new ships had identical layouts to their free counterparts, then all of this would be a non-issue. But this isn't the case at all.
You know the worst part of all of this? Since this is not announced ingame that this is happening, the silent majority are also the unaware. Kind of hard to complain about an incoming change if you weren't informed...right?
You know the worst part of all of this? Since this is not announced ingame that this is happening, the silent majority are also the unaware. Kind of hard to complain about an incoming change if you weren't informed...right?
The CStore in game and on the site lists the ships stats so no one needs to come here to work out the RI is OP, they have all the details available and if they care they can make their own decision regarding whether to buy it or not. I don't like the RI either but just because people don't use the forums, which is their choice anyway, no one is uninformed if they take the time to read the item description before purchase.
The CStore in game and on the site lists the ships stats so no one needs to come here to work out the RI is OP, they have all the details available and if they care they can make their own decision regarding whether to buy it or not. I don't like the RI either but just because people don't use the forums, which is their choice anyway, no one is uninformed if they take the time to read the item description before purchase.
It's easy to misread the stats. (And the old ship informations used to contain errors, even!). And the stats do not suggest all the implications ships like this would have for the future.
Saying "contains cyanide ions" somewhere on the ingredients list on a box of Corn Flakes might not immediately suggest to people that there is a health risk involved.
Can you help me out here and throw some bone or bit of information that helps me to better understand what I'm doing wrong? I must be doing something wrong somewhere because unlike the preponderance of posters here in the topic, I actually enjoy the game and have fun playing it.
I must be doing something wrong, somewhere, somehow, because I'm having fun and enjoying the game as it is.
There has to be some disconnect or misinformation that I have with ya'lls reality of the serious business of the STO tier system that causes me to not see any sort of issues with the addition of the RI, and all the other proposed new ships. But it's causing me to not worry about the changes that the devs are instituting. What am I doing wrong or how am I thinking wrong?
Come on guys, tell me, what they hell am I doing wrong that causing me to just have fun and enjoy the game as it is? What's causing me to not worry about any new ship configurations added to STO?
I want to be like you guys, I want to think like you guys so I fit in here. I want to do what's right for the game and every other player. But I keep having fun and just enjoy the game.
Help me to learn to be mad and frustrated with this earth-shattering change to the game so I too can see the devs as the ultimate evil power in the gaming world! Help me to understand your point of view so I too can go on some rant about how Dan and the devs are lying to us and and and...but dangit, I keep having fun and just enjoy the game!
It's easy to misread the stats. (And the old ship informations used to contain errors, even!). And the stats do not suggest all the implications ships like this would have for the future.
Saying "contains cyanide ions" somewhere on the ingredients list on a box of Corn Flakes might not immediately suggest to people that there is a health risk involved.
Although I agree, the information is all available to those that are interested. Whether it be in game or on the forums or even the CStore the information is there for others to make their own decisions regarding the state of the ships but the onus is on them to look for it. If they aren't willing to look for it, and it's not exactly difficult to find with multiple threads on the front page of the busiest sub forum then they can't be that interested.
As sad as that may be, what I was trying to say (evidently not very clearly) with the previous post was that it's all available to them but implying the silent majority is somehow being left in the dark is disingenuous, nothing's being hidden or slipped in quietly without anyone's notice but it is up to anyone that's interested to look for it.
Although I agree, the information is all available to those that are interested. Whether it be in game or on the forums or even the CStore the information is there for others to make their own decisions regarding the state of the ships but the onus is on them to look for it. If they aren't willing to look for it, and it's not exactly difficult to find with multiple threads on the front page of the busiest sub forum then they can't be that interested.
Oh, well, we probably don't need the number of thread we have on the topic, but it can't be helped. That's just like hotly debated topics develop. Everyone has his own viewpoints.
As sad as that may be, what I was trying to say (evidently not very clearly) with the previous post was that it's all available to them but implying the silent majority is somehow being left in the dark is disingenuous, nothing's being hidden or slipped in quietly without anyone's notice but it is up to anyone that's interested to look for it.
But why would you think about implications for the future of the game, when you never thought about that before, and the last ship you bought _was_ balanced (not that you noticed or cared for it), or you bought a costume?
The "silent majority" might contain of people
That just don'tt care, regardless of whether you tell them or not.
That just don't know there is something to worry about, as they don't visit the forums.
We are pretty hard-core players of this game, otherwise we wouldn't visit the forums that much.
The issue here is that Cryptic is building a pay gate for power. If you want to dominate your tier, you have to buy one of these fancy, statistically (if marginally) superior ships. That is the problem. If these new ships had identical layouts to their free counterparts, then all of this would be a non-issue. But this isn't the case at all.
Where as previously, if you wanted to dominate your tier, you needed a max level alt to get you the best gear, you needed to be grade 7 or higher, and possibly a PVP oriented fleet.
MMO PVP, in even the best of situations, is inherently unbalanced. But in lower tier PVP the idea of ship balance is laughable! People join the lower tier PVP queue while leveling their ships with whatever gear they happen to have and at whatever grade they hapen to be. That Cryptic is adding another variable to this already unbalanced equation is not a point worth this much emotional investment.
Al Rivera admits the R.I. is Overpowered compared to its in-game attainable peer ships.
So there you have it. A DEVELOPER....admits its overpowered.
you can see for yourself at 8:55 into the episode.
Did they say anything regarding the next 15/16/however many variants they're adding, or comment on the precent that the R.I sets? Anything at all? "We dont care", or "It'll be available ingame via a method that requires someone, even if it isn't you, to pay us real money"?
Oh, well, we probably don't need the number of thread we have on the topic, but it can't be helped. That's just like hotly debated topics develop. Everyone has his own viewpoints.
Perhaps, but if it prevents another RI then the number of threads was worth it.
But why would you think about implications for the future of the game, when you never thought about that before, and the last ship you bought _was_ balanced (not that you noticed or cared for it), or you bought a costume?
The "silent majority" might contain of people
That just don'tt care, regardless of whether you tell them or not.
That just don't know there is something to worry about, as they don't visit the forums.
We are pretty hard-core players of this game, otherwise we wouldn't v
Again I agree with you, but I still feel that if they don't use the tools available to them then it's entirely on them. I'd also question how much of those that don't use the forums actually care about or are interested in game balance, they're likely to be the casual players that are still at Commander or Captain after a year of playing so game balance is likely not something they're interested in.
Where as previously, if you wanted to dominate your tier, you needed a max level alt to get you the best gear, you needed to be grade 7 or higher, and possibly a PVP oriented fleet.
MMO PVP, in even the best of situations, is inherently unbalanced. But in lower tier PVP the idea of ship balance is laughable! People join the lower tier PVP queue while leveling their ships with whatever gear they happen to have and at whatever grade they hapen to be. That Cryptic is adding another variable to this already unbalanced equation is not a point worth this much emotional investment.
Since when is PVP fair? It is just a massive war zone where newbies and pros fight aside each other and you wind up with the result of people with generally good PVE builds coming into a PVP zone expecting to wreak havoc and serve pwncakes to their enemies.
I do not agree with having any more pay to win ships in STO but you and I both know they (meaning Cryptic) will add something else like that which will be dictated by their new PW owners....(PW stands for perfect world). They have to be able to make profit on their game in the C-Store, and the only way to do this is to offer the players things that they want.
Perhaps if they added cosmetic things instead of new radical ships that serve pwncakes like TWOK uni's that were proper, or Klingon fingerless gloves, honor cloaks, and the like..... that there might be the best thing they could do to earn money and stop having to fiddle with adding pay to pwn ships.
That's my 2 cents, but who cares, nobody listens to me anyway..... :eek:
Did they say anything regarding the next 15/16/however many variants they're adding, or comment on the precent that the R.I sets? Anything at all? "We dont care", or "It'll be available ingame via a method that requires someone, even if it isn't you, to pay us real money"?
There's a posting floating around in one of these types of threads where the Klingons are getting some new ships next - small 1-hangar carriers at T3 I think it was. It should be a wonderful addition to the game for Klingons to use and enhance their game experience.
Where as previously, if you wanted to dominate your tier, you needed a max level alt to get you the best gear, you needed to be grade 7 or higher, and possibly a PVP oriented fleet.
Difference is all of that can be obtained by any character with or without a high level character to support them. Just a couple of runs through Otha or Ker'rat at LT, sell the rewards and you have enough EC to buy yourself a set or very rare crafted weapons for that tier, craft or run the Breen series for the engine/ deflector and get a decent shield from Marks of Exploration and your ships now fully kitted out in decent gear for a million EC or less. But what's the point if you have less BO slots and consoles than a ship someone brought from the store? In the case of the Nova and RI you'll be a top level (LT) Science slot down and an engineering console down, that's not something that can be easily dismissed at LTC level.
Well, Blizzard has a yearly Arena Tournament for World of Warcraft. All players are given a max level character and an identical allowance to spend on gear. That is the closest I've ever seen to "fair" PVP, and even then there are inherent class limitations and unbalances.
It is just a massive war zone where newbies and pros fight aside each other and you wind up with the result of people with generally good PVE builds coming into a PVP zone expecting to wreak havoc and serve pwncakes to their enemies.
I do not agree with having any more pay to win ships in STO but you and I both know they (meaning Cryptic) will add something else like that which will be dictated by their new PW owners....(PW stands for perfect world). They have to be able to make profit on their game in the C-Store, and the only way to do this is to offer the players things that they want.
Perhaps if they added cosmetic things instead of new radical ships that serve pwncakes like TWOK uni's that were proper, or Klingon fingerless gloves, honor cloaks, and the like..... that there might be the best thing they could do to earn money and stop having to fiddle with adding pay to pwn ships.
That's my 2 cents, but who cares, nobody listens to me anyway..... :eek:
I too disagree with lower tier ships being introduced at a different power level in principle. In practice, I can't bring myself to care too much becuase it's not going to damage the lower level PVP experience and will have no effect on my lower tier PVE experience.
Difference is all of that can be obtained by any character with or without a high level character to support them.
You're right, and I left out the most important part. You also need experience to dominate your tier and experience is only something you get while leveling and to get as much experience as the guy with a high level character, you yourself need to have leveled a high level character.
Comments
And? When you start wrong you end wrong. Your posts aren't fine wine, they don't get better as time goes on.
Let me repeat this: The developers did not balance the Rhode Island. Again, I can link you to CaptainGeko saying it's overpowered.
Overpowered is not balanced. Thus you are wrong. That the developers made the ship unbalanced intentionally does not change the fact that it's unbalanced. Thus your statement, that the developers balance the ships, is fundamentally wrong. No way around that.
Sure, go back and read your posts. Done.
You dismiss everything you don't like or that doesn't fit into your fallacious view of the game. Like PvP. Or Fleet Actions. Or actual balance.
While you may have a different VIEW of the game, you suggest that your view DEFINES the game. It does not. Especially since your view intentionally ignores large portions of the game.
Nope. Actually I'm just doing it for ****s and giggles. You don't know what you're talking about. Your statements about CO prove that and devalue anything else you might say. That's just fact. Sorry. If you don't like it you should probably quit pretending to know stuff you don't.
You already responded to the posts, you just overlooked all the facts that were inconvenient and showed that you were trying to speak out of turn about stuff you don't know. Which, well, is a theme for you.
If you tried to have an honest conversation instead then this might be interesting as opposed to amusing, but hey... you just keep dancing and I'll just keep laughing. I mean, knock yourself out... but it seems like you're going through a lot of effort just to provide me with a few measly chuckles over your antics.
No, I am not pretending. I am exercising my privilege to express my own opinions and observations of these forums, the posters, the game and the developers. Just as you are. The difference is that I am not at odds with the developers decisions about their game.
I see the game differently. We can all agree on that 100%.
I think that the way in which people come to play STO with their own preconceived notions and expectations of what they will find and experience in STO influences their attitudes about the game, the developers and other posters most especially when that game experience is at odds with their notions and expectations.
If these same players were to see STO for what it really is, what it offers, how it is meant to be played, then their experience would be better, more satisfying, more enjoyable. That is simple logic, not ignorance.
I don't know about you, but if I enter a fleet action and someone is already running up the score, then I help'em finish it and then try to get into another just so I get a shot at that "epic lewtz". I'm always up for a good competitive Fleet Action where I try to maximize my DPS using the tactics and gear as best as I can.
Do you every worry or consider that some player may have done a "pre-made" PvP build geared for high DPS output and then entered the very same Fleet Action that you do with a "normal" or "common" build and find that you just can't keep up with his DPS?
Unless I'm mistaken, the developers control and dictate the tier system for the ships. I accept where they choose to place any particular ship and then decide on which one I use based on my own personal preferences. I never worry about any one ship within a tier being any better than any other.
I'm all for the STO devs adding any options they can to enhance the game play experience. If those options find their way to the C-Store then I might look and buy something that I like.
I understand that Cryptic offers completely optional costumes on the C-Store for my controllable avatar whether it be humanoid uniforms or ships. I'm ok with them charging a fee for that something something that I just have to have to use in my game of STO. I understand that as a consumer that I have no obligation whatsoever to ever purchase anything from the C-Store. I also understand that I can experience all the missions, featured episodes, patrols, fleet actions and STF's just with the freebie ships and gear that are coded into the game.
Did that answer your question well enough?
They don't HAVE to account for the new ships. And probably won't because that would mean visiting and changing every single mission, episode or series in the game. I think they'll leave the difficulty levels up to the players.
About this "balancing PvE NPC's" - how can you balance the NPCs that follow their own designated ruleset against the ruleset that players follow? We've probably all experienced the challenging Romulan Warbirds in the DSEs, or the Breen ships in the Deferi series. I found them somewhat challenging but would not go so far as to think that they needed some sort of "balancing". I understand the nature of war is not fair and equal but realize that this is a game and the devs have to go somewhat easy on us.
About the STFs, I've only ever completed the first one, multiple times, but I never found or saw anything where there was a competition amongst the team members. Am I missing something there? I would think that additional options for the players will only serve to make the experience more enjoyable for all parties.
Yeah, but that person didn't buy access to that build, you can do it too. Also there are quite a few different ways to make a high DPS build, the skill point system gives you a greater return on focused versatility rather than pure min/maxing. If you foucsed on damage to the point you forsake all else you'd compromise yourself, for example, lacking the survivability to consistantly apply that DPS. Even if you can prove there is one superior DPS build that will always outperform others in a FA, all players still have equal access to it.
You're not competing with your team members but you are competing with others in general in that your performance is rewarded insomuch as the mission is more difficult to complete than solo PvE, in short the rewards are greater but they have to be earned, just like the Aegis set has to be earned by collecting samples and levellign your R&D skill.
Ah! So we do have some additional information of where the new ships will arrive in the grander scheme of the tier system. I look forward to checking out these new ships to see which one will be my next purchase.
Thanks for point that out!
They sell you one..score...I collect ships and will now end up buying none of these new ones.....nice.
New missions. Not every mission. And more powerful ships mean PvE gets facerolled faster than it does atm. Sure, Cryptic doesn't HAVE to account for their shiny new X.5 ships when designing missions, but it would be smart to do so. Of course, you'd figure it would also be smart to not trash game balance either, but X.5 is here. :rolleyes:
The same way Cryptic always does - by tacking on more HP, shields and damage output. :cool:
Did I mention competition between players in STFs? I referenced the revamped STFs, specifically the new more difficult version, as one possible way for Cryptic to try and force people to buy the new pay-for-power ships by making the STF's too difficult to complete with the free ships. Again, that's purely speculation but since Cryptic is adding pay-for-power ships in the C-$tore it stands to reason they'll try to make it worth the effort.
Z
I don't see where I was wrong when you take in the whole sentence that I made. I stated that the Cryptic devs balance the ships according to their own internal rules and not in accordance with what players dictate. The devs chose to make this ship in this condition or manner and not in accordance with what forum posters provided in feedback about it. As the developers they are well within their rights to do or make anything in this game in the manner that they see fit. Our choice as players is whether to buy and use that ship or not.
So the good CaptainGeko said that the ship is OP? OP in relation to what? The common ships at that tier that have been in game since closed beta? Yes, I would consider that term appropriate when used to describe that comparison of the ships abilities when placed in a PvP match. OP in relation to PvE missions and episodes available to players at the rank for that tier of ship, no, I wouldn't consider it "OP".
I have a different view of STO and all these wonderful new options coming available to we, the players.
I see no fallacies whatsoever in my stated opinion on how I view STO. The more I interact with the posters on these forums, the more I realize the truth of the players allowing their own preconceived notions and expectations of STO to override and become in conflict with the reality of the STO experience that they find which leads to them becoming frustrated or mad at the game, the developers and other forum posters.
I am fully aware and cognizant of what sort of impact on PvP and PvE Fleet Actions that this new ship will have. I figure the PvP min/maxers will have already come up with some sort of build or counter to the RI and they will just move right along until the next ship comes in and then they'll repeat the process of adapt, improvise and overcome. It doesn't "change" the underlying game. And the only "balance" that this ship, or any other introduced ship, will have any effect on is in the minds of PvP players as they scramble to figure out just how counter it's abilities when they face it on the PvP battlefield.
I am trying to have an honest conversation and share my own opinions and views of STO. I am a bit tired now, but I am fixated or focused on this whole notion / expectation issue.
I am also trying to understand, by engaging posters such as yourself, the mindset of the players that are so at odds with every little decision that Dan and his devs make regarding STO.
I view the game in a different way from other players. I "play" the game in a different way from other players. I came to STO expecting to find the sort of game and game play that I actually do experience in STO. I'm happy and content in my views of and experience within STO.
I came expecting to play a character that is a captain of a ship in the ST IP. Based on what I've seen and experienced with CoH, CoV and CO, I assumed that Cryptic would make the game in that same manner and that I would be "directing" my character thru various missions and episodes in the STO galaxy while trying to capture some of that Star Trek mystique. I was quite happy and content with what I found in STO. What I didn't find was the WoW type of progression-oriented, must-raid-endlessly to gear up with epic-lewtz for end-game battles with the boss to win the game type of stressed-out experience. STO is relaxing, fun, amusing and entertaining.
What I have seen is like a TV series where I control my characters participation in the show. I've found that at any rank or level in the game, the very same experience occurs. I don't mind watching reruns of the any of the ST shows and I don't mind "playing" any reruns of the missions. The customization is wonderful, the costumes and props are great. The content directly relates to the players rank as they rise up all the way to VA/LG.
I do have issues with the concepts surrounding the STFs based on all of my preceding STO experiences.
The premise of the STFs do not fit in with the rest of the game, but the storylines do. I understand why the devs added in the STFs just to give those "progression-oriented-end-game-raiding" type of hardcore players SOME sort of dungeon in which to "feel like they're playing a real MMO". But I would never consider the STF's anything like the "end-game" content of WoW that I've experienced. And STO's story never really ever ends as each generation carries on from the one preceding it.
All in all, I think that the devs have done a wonderful job in providing this Star Trek like experience. I think they made a valiant effort to provide something even for the PvPers and Hardcore Raiders although I do understand that Cryptic really doesn't "do" those sorts of play-styles well. Cryptic makes fun simple games that are relatively easy to develop, produce and release.
So it all boils down to me being at odds with forum posters who constantly are frustrated with their STO experience and vent that anger and frustration at the devs about every little issue or decision that the devs make.
TLDR;
Somebody somewhere ain't having fun in STO for whatever reason. I'm having fun enjoying STO so they must be doing something wrong somehow someway because I've always thought that we play games just to have fun and be entertained.
Then why do you need "Pay To Win Ships" its not like you cant take the worst ship in the game strip it
of everything but one beam array and faceroll all the PvE in the game on elite.
Probably because a shiny new paint and new starship smell is not enough. You need more Boffs consoles and such to have that roflstomp goodness last.
Let's not fool ourselves -- the problem with overpowered ships and abilities has been, is, and will be primarily PvP. There is some effect in PvE, but it's not the primary focus of this thread.
Hey, I've actually done some B'tran exploration missions on elite in my Nova, 'stock' non Rhode Island version btw.
It was very difficult and I actually die doing it... well, when a torpedo salvo does over double your hull points before shields/resists that's kinda to be expected...
So you can't quite take it quite to the level you promote there
Also, you can add more options to the game 'without' unbalancing what is currently there.
He's correct inasmuch as it's their tier system. Where he's wrong is in thinking that this autoamtically means that everything they release is balanced. That's like thinking everything signed into law by your favorite governing body is perfect, even if that law says, for instance, "TRIBBLE is okay now, but only if the victim was wearing a short skirt at the time." It's clearly stupid, but you don't care at all because, hey, the government passed it, so it must be awesome! There's a technical term for this, but it escapes me, and the only equivalents I can think of would earn me infractions.
But anyway. About the ship.
What has happened, at the moment, is an anomaly that clearly breaks the structure of the game's tier progression, something Pyryck seems to think doesn't exist. More disturbingly, they not only appear to plan more ships on the same tier, but on higher tiers, effectively invalidating the free offerings in competitive play up to, but not including, T5.
You cannot simply devise a counter-build to a statistically superior ship, as Pyryck appears to believe. You can have a build that can beat it, but against a player of equal skill, you will always be at a disadvantage.
Releasing more ships of the same tier will technically balance it out, so ultimately, it isn't balance that's the issue.
The issue here is that Cryptic is building a pay gate for power. If you want to dominate your tier, you have to buy one of these fancy, statistically (if marginally) superior ships. That is the problem. If these new ships had identical layouts to their free counterparts, then all of this would be a non-issue. But this isn't the case at all.
You know the worst part of all of this? Since this is not announced ingame that this is happening, the silent majority are also the unaware. Kind of hard to complain about an incoming change if you weren't informed...right?
The CStore in game and on the site lists the ships stats so no one needs to come here to work out the RI is OP, they have all the details available and if they care they can make their own decision regarding whether to buy it or not. I don't like the RI either but just because people don't use the forums, which is their choice anyway, no one is uninformed if they take the time to read the item description before purchase.
It's easy to misread the stats. (And the old ship informations used to contain errors, even!). And the stats do not suggest all the implications ships like this would have for the future.
Saying "contains cyanide ions" somewhere on the ingredients list on a box of Corn Flakes might not immediately suggest to people that there is a health risk involved.
Can you help me out here and throw some bone or bit of information that helps me to better understand what I'm doing wrong? I must be doing something wrong somewhere because unlike the preponderance of posters here in the topic, I actually enjoy the game and have fun playing it.
I must be doing something wrong, somewhere, somehow, because I'm having fun and enjoying the game as it is.
There has to be some disconnect or misinformation that I have with ya'lls reality of the serious business of the STO tier system that causes me to not see any sort of issues with the addition of the RI, and all the other proposed new ships. But it's causing me to not worry about the changes that the devs are instituting. What am I doing wrong or how am I thinking wrong?
Come on guys, tell me, what they hell am I doing wrong that causing me to just have fun and enjoy the game as it is? What's causing me to not worry about any new ship configurations added to STO?
I want to be like you guys, I want to think like you guys so I fit in here. I want to do what's right for the game and every other player. But I keep having fun and just enjoy the game.
Help me to learn to be mad and frustrated with this earth-shattering change to the game so I too can see the devs as the ultimate evil power in the gaming world! Help me to understand your point of view so I too can go on some rant about how Dan and the devs are lying to us and and and...but dangit, I keep having fun and just enjoy the game!
WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?
Although I agree, the information is all available to those that are interested. Whether it be in game or on the forums or even the CStore the information is there for others to make their own decisions regarding the state of the ships but the onus is on them to look for it. If they aren't willing to look for it, and it's not exactly difficult to find with multiple threads on the front page of the busiest sub forum then they can't be that interested.
As sad as that may be, what I was trying to say (evidently not very clearly) with the previous post was that it's all available to them but implying the silent majority is somehow being left in the dark is disingenuous, nothing's being hidden or slipped in quietly without anyone's notice but it is up to anyone that's interested to look for it.
Al Rivera admits the R.I. is Overpowered compared to its in-game attainable peer ships.
So there you have it. A DEVELOPER....admits its overpowered.
you can see for yourself at 8:55 into the episode.
But why would you think about implications for the future of the game, when you never thought about that before, and the last ship you bought _was_ balanced (not that you noticed or cared for it), or you bought a costume?
The "silent majority" might contain of people
We are pretty hard-core players of this game, otherwise we wouldn't visit the forums that much.
Where as previously, if you wanted to dominate your tier, you needed a max level alt to get you the best gear, you needed to be grade 7 or higher, and possibly a PVP oriented fleet.
MMO PVP, in even the best of situations, is inherently unbalanced. But in lower tier PVP the idea of ship balance is laughable! People join the lower tier PVP queue while leveling their ships with whatever gear they happen to have and at whatever grade they hapen to be. That Cryptic is adding another variable to this already unbalanced equation is not a point worth this much emotional investment.
Did they say anything regarding the next 15/16/however many variants they're adding, or comment on the precent that the R.I sets? Anything at all? "We dont care", or "It'll be available ingame via a method that requires someone, even if it isn't you, to pay us real money"?
Perhaps, but if it prevents another RI then the number of threads was worth it.
Again I agree with you, but I still feel that if they don't use the tools available to them then it's entirely on them. I'd also question how much of those that don't use the forums actually care about or are interested in game balance, they're likely to be the casual players that are still at Commander or Captain after a year of playing so game balance is likely not something they're interested in.
Since when is PVP fair? It is just a massive war zone where newbies and pros fight aside each other and you wind up with the result of people with generally good PVE builds coming into a PVP zone expecting to wreak havoc and serve pwncakes to their enemies.
I do not agree with having any more pay to win ships in STO but you and I both know they (meaning Cryptic) will add something else like that which will be dictated by their new PW owners....(PW stands for perfect world). They have to be able to make profit on their game in the C-Store, and the only way to do this is to offer the players things that they want.
Perhaps if they added cosmetic things instead of new radical ships that serve pwncakes like TWOK uni's that were proper, or Klingon fingerless gloves, honor cloaks, and the like..... that there might be the best thing they could do to earn money and stop having to fiddle with adding pay to pwn ships.
That's my 2 cents, but who cares, nobody listens to me anyway..... :eek:
There's a posting floating around in one of these types of threads where the Klingons are getting some new ships next - small 1-hangar carriers at T3 I think it was. It should be a wonderful addition to the game for Klingons to use and enhance their game experience.
Difference is all of that can be obtained by any character with or without a high level character to support them. Just a couple of runs through Otha or Ker'rat at LT, sell the rewards and you have enough EC to buy yourself a set or very rare crafted weapons for that tier, craft or run the Breen series for the engine/ deflector and get a decent shield from Marks of Exploration and your ships now fully kitted out in decent gear for a million EC or less. But what's the point if you have less BO slots and consoles than a ship someone brought from the store? In the case of the Nova and RI you'll be a top level (LT) Science slot down and an engineering console down, that's not something that can be easily dismissed at LTC level.
Well, Blizzard has a yearly Arena Tournament for World of Warcraft. All players are given a max level character and an identical allowance to spend on gear. That is the closest I've ever seen to "fair" PVP, and even then there are inherent class limitations and unbalances.
I too disagree with lower tier ships being introduced at a different power level in principle. In practice, I can't bring myself to care too much becuase it's not going to damage the lower level PVP experience and will have no effect on my lower tier PVE experience.
You're right, and I left out the most important part. You also need experience to dominate your tier and experience is only something you get while leveling and to get as much experience as the guy with a high level character, you yourself need to have leveled a high level character.