Got to love the mods. Fanboys are allowed to troll and be as insulting as they want. But people with genuine grevances get infractions and their threads deleted.
Im a fanboy because I actually like the game ??? :rolleyes:
Got to love the mods. Fanboys are allowed to troll and be as insulting as they want. But people with genuine grevances get infractions and their threads deleted.
I don't know, there were already several "fanboy" threads closed.
And as far as I know, moderation doesn't happen during the night.
Got to love the mods. Fanboys are allowed to troll and be as insulting as they want. But people with genuine grevances get infractions and their threads deleted.
Be he trolling or be he not trolling. that is not the question. One thing I have learned in my times of defending and questioning the game. is that you can't call anyone a fanboi or a troll. because if you do. then your trolling yourself. it is best to wait for the mods. they will get this thread in the morning.
StormShade may be awesome. but he is only human, and so needs time to regenerate. But he will be back to take care of any problems.
Im a fanboy because I actually like the game ??? :rolleyes:
No, you most likley suck in PVP and want to pay for beating other players instead of a little LTP.
Ships should remain balanced, otherwise PVP is dead, wich means one of the main content sources is dead... wich means even more Suscribers will quit STO and join TOR.
If you want to have that kind of "power" play a singel player game and use cheats. That seems to be closer to your playstyle.
A 2 day headstart, during which our pre-order bonuses were not available which resulted in those intent on rolling a Joined Trill character not getting a headstart. Not even close to 30 days. Such a thing would be acceptable in a F2P game, not a P2P game.
I fyou havn't seen an arguement against Tx.5 I'd say you havn't been following the whole debate. Nevertheless I will attempt to summarize as bext I can.
The RI is objectively and demonstrably more powerful than its Equivalent, the Nova and as such represents paying for power when no free in game method is available or confirmed to be on the way (as promised would be the case with all c-store ships). While the RI doesn't amount to much on its own It sets a dangerous precedent which dev comments confirm will be followed. Paying for power upsets game balance for all players, whichever side you are on and the arguement is this is not acceptable in a game we are already paying for and have been paying for expecting, and experiancing to date, a level playing field (though there is some debate on just how level the playing field has actually been, though until the RI you havnt been able to buy a clear advantage).
Over the life of STO assurances have been made and then ignored by the devs on c-store content, many amount that to broken promises, bad enough in and of itself.
Ask yourself, would you be happy to lose a PvP match because you were unable to fork over more cash on top of your subscription? Or not getting the best loot from a Fleet Action (also, the current plan to obtain the Enterprise-F Odyssy class ship is via a Fleet Action series)? Or not getting a place in an STF group because the other guy going for the place you are has paid more? Or you have earned the STF rewrds on your own merits and someone comes a long and does it more easily because they paid more? Or new content is balanced against Tx.5 ships effectively resulting in your wallet nerfing you?
This is not rampant speculation, this comes largely from the evidence supplied by the devs themselves, while things like T5.5 a likely and reasonable conclusion based on that. Paying for power may well have a negative effect on the game, something I have experianced first hand on other games. Not just in a way that players don't like but doesnt really matter, it can hurt it financially which is bad for ALL players.
Those opposed to paying for power are speaking up now before it becomes a big issue and harder to fix, prevention is better than cure.
Still not compelling enough as the same argument could be made for all ships sold in the C-Store that has that special little console, like the MVAM. Those ships are slightly more powerful than what's available in game. This x.5 model has existed since launch with the TOS Connie, being slightly more powerful than the Miranda. Then the NX and Oberth classes. Didn't see any complaints then. Now they've moved to Tier two.
This x.5 model has existed since launch with the TOS Connie, being slightly more powerful than the Miranda. Then the NX and Oberth classes. Didn't see any complaints then. Now they've moved to Tier two.
No it wasnt. All those ships payed for their advantadges and were balanced. The Nova does not really pay anything.
Examples:
1) First Place in a Fleet Action
2) Winning a PvP match
3) Beating a time or otherwise resource-constrained combat mission. (Say a mission where you have to save a certain number of NPCs by defeating enemy ships, or where you must beat a certain enemy before he can escape or blow a planet up.)
Examples:
1) First Place in a Fleet Action
2) Winning a PvP match
3) Beating a time or otherwise resource-constrained combat mission. (Say a mission where you have to save a certain number of NPCs by defeating enemy ships, or where you must beat a certain enemy before he can escape or blow a planet up.)
OK so the subject of Pay to Win applies to specific objectives within STO, not STO in it's entirety. I didn't quite understand so thanks for the clarification.
I guess I am neutral to the arguments due to my playstyle. I enjoy Fleet actions, some casual PVP, and standard missions but I do not excel at any of them. With that, me having a better ship than someone else wont really effect the top tier players out there in those given areas.
Still not compelling enough as the same argument could be made for all ships sold in the C-Store that has that special little console, like the MVAM. Those ships are slightly more powerful than what's available in game. This x.5 model has existed since launch with the TOS Connie, being slightly more powerful than the Miranda. Then the NX and Oberth classes. Didn't see any complaints then. Now they've moved to Tier two.
Thing is, other ships like the MVAM have some kind of tradeoff for their unique ability. When they tired this with the Excelsior the outrage caused it to be rebalanced. Whether or not most fo the c-store ships is subjective. The RI has been buffed with absolutely no tradeoffs for those buffs, so it is objectively superior, there can be no debate on that. Can someone in a Nova beat the RI? Yes, if he is a better player, the they tw players are equal, the RI wins. Thats not even the biggest problem, because another 16 ships will follow that arguement. Specifically on the MVAM, I invariably find Defiant-r pilots more dangerous than MVAM pilots and on occasion, considering the drawbacks of the MVAM, it can be quite laughable.
You may be right about the T1 ships but thats also part of the problem, its the boiling frog metaphor that another poster has quite aptly been using.
Furthermore, new c-store ships can be unique, interesting and balanced, coe with a free in game method to obtain AND still sell as they have been.
It also doesn't make up for what many see as broken promises on the matter. We were assured we would not get to this point.
OK so the subject of Pay to Win applies to specific objectives within STO, not STO in it's entirety. I didn't quite understand so thanks for the clarification.
I guess I am neutral to the arguments due to my playstyle. I enjoy Fleet actions, some casual PVP, and standard missions but I do not excel at any of them. With that, me having a better ship than someone else wont really effect the top tier players out there in those given areas.
But it will aafect those players if people within those groups pay for power. Balance won't hurt you playstyle either so why can't we have that? Or a system that blocks/disables pay for power items in competative portions of the game?
OK so the subject of Pay to Win applies to specific objectives within STO, not STO in it's entirety. I didn't quite understand so thanks for the clarification.
I guess I am neutral to the arguments due to my playstyle. I enjoy Fleet actions, some casual PVP, and standard missions but I do not excel at any of them. With that, me having a better ship than someone else wont really effect the top tier players out there in those given areas.
Even with that you would be affectet, at least in PVP. If a line of t5.5 ships is out and you go in with one of that boring normal ships, every "not-just-causal"pvper will hate you for that.
Seen that in other games, in ALL other games with a pay to win model, and heared the same from those I havent played.
No reason at all why that should be diffrent in STO, if you WANT to do the entire content you will HAVE to buy that p2w ships at some point.
Still not compelling enough as the same argument could be made for all ships sold in the C-Store that has that special little console, like the MVAM. Those ships are slightly more powerful than what's available in game. This x.5 model has existed since launch with the TOS Connie, being slightly more powerful than the Miranda. Then the NX and Oberth classes. Didn't see any complaints then. Now they've moved to Tier two.
Lol, didn't I say people were already falling for it by rationalizing the RI through the NX and Oberth?
The beginning was the TOS connie, sure. I got it with my preorder. It's not uber powerful, sure. It's actually balanced for its tier though. The Excelsior game next, and then the forum burned with hell's inferno, and the ship was changed.
Then the NX and Nebula. There was some rage over the nebula's BO layout, but it paid the price on that (has drawbacks), and it was a nod to canon. The NX got an innate tractor beam ability (with a really long CD)
Recently was the Oberth with it's console, and it was modified due to feedback.
Now we have the RI, which has a HUGE feedback thread, thats objectively OP compared to its "equivalent", and has not been changed due to feedback. It has nothing but buffs, no drawbacks. If it was T3, the story would be different, but its not T3, and so is OP for its tier. From the looks of it, the ship appears balanced for T3.
If it was changed to a T3 Nova with exclusive (which means not unique in crypticspeak) BO layout, which is different than the golfball ship, I would say "whatever" and move on. but its in the wrong tier, and is OP and people are paying for power when they buy it.
A better package would have been a T2 cosmetic costume for the Nova, and a T3 additional sci ship with its unique BO setup and powers.
"I have money and am willing to spend it to get what I want. I want power and success (and the envy of other people) and I don't want to work too hard to get them. I'm not lazy, I just don't see a point slaving away for something if I can buy it outright. Fairness and game balance are great for people without money. For me, I want to win, and winning means getting what I want. Just because you can't afford to win isn't my problem. Why should I have to suffer? This isn't Welfare Online.
Balance? Sure it's balanced. You can buy the same things I can buy. If you choose to spend your money on something else, don't come crying to me when I pwn you with my $tore-bought Noob-Kill-R 4000 or take top spot in FA's. And this stuff will be available in-game eventually so quit your whining. Just because you want to grind for it doesn't mean I do. I have a life. You want to grind? Have at it. I'll be tooling around in my new ships, thank you very much.
Sure, Trek = great. But Trek + me flying whatever uber ships I can afford = awesome covered in awesomesauce! And let's face it; everyone has a price, especially businesses. Cryptic is in this to make money, not to worship at the alter of Roddenberry. Guess what? I'm betting that my wallet speaks louder than your righteous indignation. See you in the game."
The anti-P2W argument can be summed up as:
"Fairness. It's so universal that even monkeys recognize it. It is the state of being free from bias or injustice and it's something that everyone wants for themselves. Selling power in a subscription game, over and above the cost of the game itself, is inherently unfair because not everyone that plays can afford it. It is a gamble (and a desperate one) that more money will be made selling power than will be lost by those that perceive the unfairness canceling their subscriptions or never subbing in the first place.
A subscription game that sells power also devalues itself. The more power you can buy in a game the more the game designers are admitting that their game can't stand on it's own merits; that the game itself isn't good enough to get people to play without being able to buy advantages. It is a vote of no-confidence from the very makers of the game and it throws game balance out the window.
That lack of game balance will have serious repercussions for both PvE and PvP, as future PvE missions must be made to account for the new power levels and PvP matches will be lopsided in favor of the teams with more money to spend. Basically, selling power in a game, even a little, means that that power level becomes the new benchmark. This makes it much more difficult for people that don't buy power to complete the same missions as people who do.
Fairness, or the appearance of fairness, is crucial to the success of any endeavor involving more than one person. A game that sacrifices this does so at great peril to itself. Many of us want STO to live a long healthy life, not a content-anemic existence lurching from sale to sale. So Cryptic...do us, yourselves and STO a favor and say no to P2W."
The above, of course, are my perceptions of both sides of this issue. YMMV.
"I have money and am willing to spend it to get what I want. I want power and success (and the envy of other people) and I don't want to work too hard to get them. I'm not lazy, I just don't see a point slaving away for something if I can buy it outright. Fairness and game balance are great for people without money. For me, I want to win, and winning means getting what I want. Just because you can't afford to win isn't my problem. Why should I have to suffer? This isn't Welfare Online.
Balance? Sure it's balanced. You can buy the same things I can buy. If you choose to spend your money on something else, don't come crying to me when I pwn you with my $tore-bought Noob-Kill-R 4000 or take top spot in FA's. And this stuff will be available in-game eventually so quit your whining. Just because you want to grind for it doesn't mean I do. I have a life. You want to grind? Have at it. I'll be tooling around in my new ships, thank you very much.
Sure, Trek = great. But Trek + me flying whatever uber ships I can afford = awesome covered in awesomesauce! And let's face it; everyone has a price, especially businesses. Cryptic is in this to make money, not to worship at the alter of Roddenberry. Guess what? I'm betting that my wallet speaks louder than your righteous indignation. See you in the game."
The anti-P2W argument can be summed up as:
"Fairness. It's so universal that even monkeys recognize it. It is the state of being free from bias or injustice and it's something that everyone wants for themselves. Selling power in a subscription game, over and above the cost of the game itself, is inherently unfair because not everyone that plays can afford it. It is a gamble (and a desperate one) that more money will be made selling power than will be lost by those that perceive the unfairness canceling their subscriptions or never subbing in the first place.
A subscription game that sells power also devalues itself. The more power you can buy in a game the more the game designers are admitting that their game can't stand on it's own merits; that the game itself isn't good enough to get people to play without being able to buy advantages. It is a vote of no-confidence from the very makers of the game and it throws game balance out the window.
That lack of game balance will have serious repercussions for both PvE and PvP, as future PvE missions must be made to account for the new power levels and PvP matches will be lopsided in favor of the teams with more money to spend. Basically, selling power in a game, even a little, means that that power level becomes the new benchmark. This makes it much more difficult for people that don't buy power to complete the same missions as people who do.
Fairness, or the appearance of fairness, is crucial to the success of any endeavor involving more than one person. A game that sacrifices this does so at great peril to itself. Many of us want STO to live a long healthy life, not a content-anemic existence lurching from sale to sale. So Cryptic...do us, yourselves and STO a favor and say no to P2W."
The above, of course, are my perceptions of both sides of this issue. YMMV.
I would love to see more pay to win ships added to the game especially at tier 5 this would be awesome. Ignore all the whiners and give us who are willing to pay extra what we really want more power.
No, I don't PvP so I don't have any care in the world about those that have an issue with ships with special powers or abilities.
I just want to see additional ships for my PvE game that have special powers and abilities to be used when I'm directing my episodes and movies starring me as the main character. These ships provide an interesting twist in the episodes.
No, I don't PvP so I don't have any care in the world about those that have an issue with ships with special powers or abilities.
I just want to see additional ships for my PvE game that have special powers and abilities to be used when I'm directing my episodes and movies starring me as the main character. These ships provide an interesting twist in the episodes.
^ Another great example of a "I only care about myself" :rolleyes:
^ Another great example of a "I only care about myself" :rolleyes:
And if you look in the mirror, you'll see the exact same attitude directed right back at yourself because you want to deny others the chance to enjoy something different for whatever reasons you can come with.
So now we're all being selfish together!
Lets all PAY TO LOSE STO, because "Pay to Win" is BAD! :rolleyes:
No, I don't PvP so I don't have any care in the world about those that have an issue with ships with special powers or abilities.
I just want to see additional ships for my PvE game that have special powers and abilities to be used when I'm directing my episodes and movies starring me as the main character. These ships provide an interesting twist in the episodes.
Then think about how you can accommodate both sides!
And if you look in the mirror, you'll see the exact same attitude directed right back at yourself because you want to deny others the chance to enjoy something different for whatever reasons you can come with.
So now we're all being selfish together!
Lets all PAY TO LOSE STO, because "Pay to Win" is BAD! :rolleyes:
Umm no, I'm showing how I give a damn for everyone else, I can easily afford all the stuff on the c-store, but I don't buy anything on it anymore, after buying 2 small things many months ago.
The Rhode Island trend will become a threat, it should be obvious. I'd rather lose STO, then see it become something that Star Trek tried to destroy.
Keep telling yourself that you're the "good guy" :rolleyes:
Yes, I wants me a tier 6 escort with 8 weapon ports, universal officer slots and a battle cloak. I'll even pay full price c-points no discount. You should have it do less damage in pvp so it wont hurt people feelings. Get her done Cryptic!
It always amazes me how no one argues against added bonuses and extra power in C-Store items adversely affecting PvE, the arguments are always focused around PvP... perhaps if STO had no PvP things would be more relaxed around here...
Comments
Im a fanboy because I actually like the game ??? :rolleyes:
And as far as I know, moderation doesn't happen during the night.
But hey, we're not about to discuss this. Sorry.
Be he trolling or be he not trolling. that is not the question. One thing I have learned in my times of defending and questioning the game. is that you can't call anyone a fanboi or a troll. because if you do. then your trolling yourself. it is best to wait for the mods. they will get this thread in the morning.
StormShade may be awesome. but he is only human, and so needs time to regenerate. But he will be back to take care of any problems.
No, you most likley suck in PVP and want to pay for beating other players instead of a little LTP.
Ships should remain balanced, otherwise PVP is dead, wich means one of the main content sources is dead... wich means even more Suscribers will quit STO and join TOR.
If you want to have that kind of "power" play a singel player game and use cheats. That seems to be closer to your playstyle.
Still not compelling enough as the same argument could be made for all ships sold in the C-Store that has that special little console, like the MVAM. Those ships are slightly more powerful than what's available in game. This x.5 model has existed since launch with the TOS Connie, being slightly more powerful than the Miranda. Then the NX and Oberth classes. Didn't see any complaints then. Now they've moved to Tier two.
If not, it illustrates perfectly a pervasive problem in modern societies; more money than sense.
If you truly like the game, why do you want to encourage the growth of this pay to win cancer? :rolleyes:
No it wasnt. All those ships payed for their advantadges and were balanced. The Nova does not really pay anything.
1) First Place in a Fleet Action
2) Winning a PvP match
3) Beating a time or otherwise resource-constrained combat mission. (Say a mission where you have to save a certain number of NPCs by defeating enemy ships, or where you must beat a certain enemy before he can escape or blow a planet up.)
OK so the subject of Pay to Win applies to specific objectives within STO, not STO in it's entirety. I didn't quite understand so thanks for the clarification.
I guess I am neutral to the arguments due to my playstyle. I enjoy Fleet actions, some casual PVP, and standard missions but I do not excel at any of them. With that, me having a better ship than someone else wont really effect the top tier players out there in those given areas.
Thing is, other ships like the MVAM have some kind of tradeoff for their unique ability. When they tired this with the Excelsior the outrage caused it to be rebalanced. Whether or not most fo the c-store ships is subjective. The RI has been buffed with absolutely no tradeoffs for those buffs, so it is objectively superior, there can be no debate on that. Can someone in a Nova beat the RI? Yes, if he is a better player, the they tw players are equal, the RI wins. Thats not even the biggest problem, because another 16 ships will follow that arguement. Specifically on the MVAM, I invariably find Defiant-r pilots more dangerous than MVAM pilots and on occasion, considering the drawbacks of the MVAM, it can be quite laughable.
You may be right about the T1 ships but thats also part of the problem, its the boiling frog metaphor that another poster has quite aptly been using.
Furthermore, new c-store ships can be unique, interesting and balanced, coe with a free in game method to obtain AND still sell as they have been.
It also doesn't make up for what many see as broken promises on the matter. We were assured we would not get to this point.
But it will aafect those players if people within those groups pay for power. Balance won't hurt you playstyle either so why can't we have that? Or a system that blocks/disables pay for power items in competative portions of the game?
Even with that you would be affectet, at least in PVP. If a line of t5.5 ships is out and you go in with one of that boring normal ships, every "not-just-causal"pvper will hate you for that.
Seen that in other games, in ALL other games with a pay to win model, and heared the same from those I havent played.
No reason at all why that should be diffrent in STO, if you WANT to do the entire content you will HAVE to buy that p2w ships at some point.
Lol, didn't I say people were already falling for it by rationalizing the RI through the NX and Oberth?
The beginning was the TOS connie, sure. I got it with my preorder. It's not uber powerful, sure. It's actually balanced for its tier though. The Excelsior game next, and then the forum burned with hell's inferno, and the ship was changed.
Then the NX and Nebula. There was some rage over the nebula's BO layout, but it paid the price on that (has drawbacks), and it was a nod to canon. The NX got an innate tractor beam ability (with a really long CD)
Recently was the Oberth with it's console, and it was modified due to feedback.
Now we have the RI, which has a HUGE feedback thread, thats objectively OP compared to its "equivalent", and has not been changed due to feedback. It has nothing but buffs, no drawbacks. If it was T3, the story would be different, but its not T3, and so is OP for its tier. From the looks of it, the ship appears balanced for T3.
If it was changed to a T3 Nova with exclusive (which means not unique in crypticspeak) BO layout, which is different than the golfball ship, I would say "whatever" and move on. but its in the wrong tier, and is OP and people are paying for power when they buy it.
A better package would have been a T2 cosmetic costume for the Nova, and a T3 additional sci ship with its unique BO setup and powers.
kthxbye
"I have money and am willing to spend it to get what I want. I want power and success (and the envy of other people) and I don't want to work too hard to get them. I'm not lazy, I just don't see a point slaving away for something if I can buy it outright. Fairness and game balance are great for people without money. For me, I want to win, and winning means getting what I want. Just because you can't afford to win isn't my problem. Why should I have to suffer? This isn't Welfare Online.
Balance? Sure it's balanced. You can buy the same things I can buy. If you choose to spend your money on something else, don't come crying to me when I pwn you with my $tore-bought Noob-Kill-R 4000 or take top spot in FA's. And this stuff will be available in-game eventually so quit your whining. Just because you want to grind for it doesn't mean I do. I have a life. You want to grind? Have at it. I'll be tooling around in my new ships, thank you very much.
Sure, Trek = great. But Trek + me flying whatever uber ships I can afford = awesome covered in awesomesauce! And let's face it; everyone has a price, especially businesses. Cryptic is in this to make money, not to worship at the alter of Roddenberry. Guess what? I'm betting that my wallet speaks louder than your righteous indignation. See you in the game."
The anti-P2W argument can be summed up as:
"Fairness. It's so universal that even monkeys recognize it. It is the state of being free from bias or injustice and it's something that everyone wants for themselves. Selling power in a subscription game, over and above the cost of the game itself, is inherently unfair because not everyone that plays can afford it. It is a gamble (and a desperate one) that more money will be made selling power than will be lost by those that perceive the unfairness canceling their subscriptions or never subbing in the first place.
A subscription game that sells power also devalues itself. The more power you can buy in a game the more the game designers are admitting that their game can't stand on it's own merits; that the game itself isn't good enough to get people to play without being able to buy advantages. It is a vote of no-confidence from the very makers of the game and it throws game balance out the window.
That lack of game balance will have serious repercussions for both PvE and PvP, as future PvE missions must be made to account for the new power levels and PvP matches will be lopsided in favor of the teams with more money to spend. Basically, selling power in a game, even a little, means that that power level becomes the new benchmark. This makes it much more difficult for people that don't buy power to complete the same missions as people who do.
Fairness, or the appearance of fairness, is crucial to the success of any endeavor involving more than one person. A game that sacrifices this does so at great peril to itself. Many of us want STO to live a long healthy life, not a content-anemic existence lurching from sale to sale. So Cryptic...do us, yourselves and STO a favor and say no to P2W."
The above, of course, are my perceptions of both sides of this issue. YMMV.
Z
Very good summary.
No, I don't PvP so I don't have any care in the world about those that have an issue with ships with special powers or abilities.
I just want to see additional ships for my PvE game that have special powers and abilities to be used when I'm directing my episodes and movies starring me as the main character. These ships provide an interesting twist in the episodes.
^ Another great example of a "I only care about myself" :rolleyes:
*slaps FloridaGuy for making Floridians look unfeeling*
C'mon now, yer making us look bad here LOL
And if you look in the mirror, you'll see the exact same attitude directed right back at yourself because you want to deny others the chance to enjoy something different for whatever reasons you can come with.
So now we're all being selfish together!
Lets all PAY TO LOSE STO, because "Pay to Win" is BAD! :rolleyes:
Then think about how you can accommodate both sides!
Or at least demand that Cryptic thinks about it.
Umm no, I'm showing how I give a damn for everyone else, I can easily afford all the stuff on the c-store, but I don't buy anything on it anymore, after buying 2 small things many months ago.
The Rhode Island trend will become a threat, it should be obvious. I'd rather lose STO, then see it become something that Star Trek tried to destroy.
Keep telling yourself that you're the "good guy" :rolleyes:
Not that this game hasnt already died but FTP + PTW = STO death.
I would ad a number 4. Through crafting.
Off topic..you a RL vet?