For one thing, the console causes bugs in PvE that haven't been fixed, but that's an issue no matter what.
Extra power (and the Rhode Island is pure extra, with no negative whatsoever) affects the competitive rewards of fleet actions, makes it easier to get the better drops of higher dfficulty levels, and provides a financial incentive to actually start making PvE more difficult to drive demand for more power.
While it is currently just one tier 2 ship, the devs have stated plainly that more peers of this ship are on the way in tiers 2-4, including KDF-side. Therefore, this is not an isolated incident, and I believe any assurances that this won't apply to endgame within the forseeable future (assurances which, notably, the devs have not even bothered to give) should be viewed with earned mistrust.
And to me, all of that is secondary to the dishonesty, both in the presentation of this particular ship and regarding the cancerous expansion of the C-store in general.
Well, I will add one thing to this. Dan wanted V'Ger in the game. And he got it...in a way (look at the new Borg Command Ship). Yet we, as customers and fans ask for balance in the C-Store....and what do we get? Called the vocal minority. (this is not trolling, it is stating facts).
Then think about how you can accommodate both sides!
Or at least demand that Cryptic thinks about it.
The thing is, Mustrum, that there is no reason whatsoever to accommodate both sides in this "Champions In Space" that STO is. There is no other side to accommodate as PvPers have it within their own power to dictate which builds, gear and ships that they will allow in competitive PvP.
As for PvE fleet actions if you personally have an issue with a ship that other players command and they are teamed with you, then by all means, feel free to try another instance of the Fleet Action where your perception of fairness will be more easily served.
The thing is, Mustrum, that there is no reason whatsoever to accommodate both sides in this "Champions In Space" that STO is. There is no other side to accommodate as PvPers have it within their own power to dictate which builds, gear and ships that they will allow in competitive PvP.
As for PvE fleet actions if you personally have an issue with a ship that other players command and they are teamed with you, then by all means, feel free to try another instance of the Fleet Action where your perception of fairness will be more easily served.
You keep saying that, except Champions didn't include anything like this until it went f2p, and even now it's not nearly so jarring there.
No, you most likley suck in PVP and want to pay for beating other players instead of a little LTP.
Ships should remain balanced, otherwise PVP is dead, wich means one of the main content sources is dead... wich means even more Suscribers will quit STO and join TOR.
If you want to have that kind of "power" play a singel player game and use cheats. That seems to be closer to your playstyle.
Why are you so afraid of going up against what you perceive as a "pay to win" ship? Not up to the challenge?
How often do you play competitive PvP matches where entrants are forced to play "pre-made" builds? How often do you run into the "pre-made builds" in normal PvP and wind up losing to them?
Extra power (and the Rhode Island is pure extra, with no negative whatsoever) affects the competitive rewards of fleet actions, makes it easier to get the better drops of higher dfficulty levels, and provides a financial incentive to actually start making PvE more difficult to drive demand for more power.
So jump in another Fleet Action where there's nothing but "new players" and win your epic lewtz! NEXT!
While it is currently just one tier 2 ship, the devs have stated plainly that more peers of this ship are on the way in tiers 2-4, including KDF-side. Therefore, this is not an isolated incident, and I believe any assurances that this won't apply to endgame within the forseeable future (assurances which, notably, the devs have not even bothered to give) should be viewed with earned mistrust.
There is NO "end-game" to or in STO. Incorrect assumption. More ship options are better for the players and the game. NEXT!
And to me, all of that is secondary to the dishonesty, both in the presentation of this particular ship and regarding the cancerous expansion of the C-store in general.
While I can't provide an argument against an opinion, I will state with un-equivocal fact that the implementation of the Rhode Island with it being sold in the C-Store for the moment and all the other ships that the devs will be bringing into STO, will NOT adversely effect Cryptics STO in any way. It "might" effect those "players" that don't "get" STO" and how it's meant to be played.
Why do you "players" insist on arguing against a cartoon costume intended to be used in a comic-book game?
I'm sorry but I'm calling shenanigans - I've been on this forum for a long...long...time and I've seen some GREAT threads closed when there was either 1 infraction(which should not constitute a thread being closed) or where lifetime members get off freely for openly trolling.
Cite the threads in question.
Lifetime members don't get away with breaking the rules. In fact we've lost valuable members because they kept breaking rules.
The only people who I've seen banned challenge the authority of the mods with repeated rule violations. It's no different than any other reasonably moderated site. If you don't agree with their moderating or the rules, don't post.
And at Cryptic's rate, they introduce a new bunch of bugs along with the fixes for the old ones, which leads to them constantly tripping over their own feet. So how about they test stuff properly, listen to and acknowledge player feedback, and fix the bugs on Tribble instead of sending the bugs live in the first place?
Why do you "players" insist on arguing against a cartoon costume intended to be used in a comic-book game?
If gameplay mechanics were meaningless, they could have saved a lot of money by not designing mechanical systems at all.
They're not meaningless in the games you purport to use as examples, and they're not here.
And furthermore, if they're meaningless, there's no reason to sell a ship with objectively boosted abilities, either. And there's a good reason not to, in that they promised they wouldn't.
You keep saying that, except Champions didn't include anything like this until it went f2p, and even now it's not nearly so jarring there.
Anything like what, Squid? Please enlighten me.
I think they offered special costumes and powers and such on the C-Store and the game didn't fall off the edge of the earth.
On a slightly different note, I will admit that there is some mathematics involved with the Rhode Island that the PvP Min/Maxers will go nuts over trying to min/max and counter the Rhode Island. It's what they do. In the meantime, competitive PvP matches can be limited to pre-made builds and specific ships only which would allow for PvPers to exclude that dangerous, unbeatable, "Pay to Win" ship called the Rhode Island.
They either never fix these bugs in a timely fashion, claim the bugs are "meant to be in the game," or break 5 other things trying to repair the original issue. Then you have "lather, rinse, repeat."
There is NO "end-game" to or in STO. Incorrect assumption. More ship options are better for the players and the game. NEXT!
Only if those ships aren't horribly unbalanced when compared to the others of its tier. PvP and STF's *are* the end game until something else crops up.
While I can't provide an argument against an opinion, I will state with un-equivocal fact that the implementation of the Rhode Island with it being sold in the C-Store for the moment and all the other ships that the devs will be bringing into STO, will NOT adversely effect Cryptics STO in any way. It "might" effect those "players" that don't "get" STO" and how it's meant to be played.
I don't know how at this point (other than Diplomacy) there is any other way to play except "pew pew BOOM." I know people need to learn to think outside the box, but you're looking way too hard.
Why do you "players" insist on arguing against a cartoon costume intended to be used in a comic-book game?
A cartoon costume which includes a bugged console, a second engineering consloe slot *and* an extra Lt. Boff station. I can see both sides of the argument, but one thing is for certain: If F2P was the intention of this ship and all others coming down the pipe, they need to learn that the C-Store is *not* the way to implement these things.
And at Cryptic's rate, they introduce a new bunch of bugs along with the fixes for the old ones, which leads to them constantly tripping over their own feet. So how about they test stuff properly, listen to and acknowledge player feedback, and fix the bugs on Tribble instead of sending the bugs live in the first place?
Without launching into a long-winded dissertation on computer game programming, sometimes you just can't separate one-thing from another even though there are issues involved. Sometimes a "patch" involves fixing something by changing one line of code but there's another line of code somewhere else that relied on that first line that was changed and now it's "bugged". Sometimes the issue doesn't manifest until the code is released to "live" and is slammed hard by a high number of users.
I will guarantee you that there are still bugs within the games coding. Probably all ways will be as the game changes and evolves over time with different developers making the changes.
I think they offered special costumes and powers and such on the C-Store...
No they did not.
Up until F2P there were NO powers in the store. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch.
Even after, all powers (beyond cosmetic swaps for travel powers) are available to subscribers FREE, with perhaps the exception of the Transformation devices, which simply (a) offer powers the subscribers already have access to in various combinations, (b) are underpowered, and (c) CAN'T be used in PvP at all.
You seem to have already admitted you have not played Champions, merely watched your son play it so perhaps you merely don't know any better, which is an excellent reason to not pretend like you do.
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Oh, and SquidheadJax is a Champions Online player. As am I. Since pre-launch. A LTSer in fact. *points to avatar* So yeah, we'd kinda know this stuff...
I think they offered special costumes and powers and such on the C-Store and the game didn't fall off the edge of the earth.
On a slightly different note, I will admit that there is some mathematics involved with the Rhode Island that the PvP Min/Maxers will go nuts over trying to min/max and counter the Rhode Island. It's what they do. In the meantime, competitive PvP matches can be limited to pre-made builds and specific ships only which would allow for PvPers to exclude that dangerous, unbeatable, "Pay to Win" ship called the Rhode Island.
Costumes are an entirely different thing, something I have never been opposed to. And that plus character services (including respecs, which were available in-game both full and partial) were the only things that ended up on CO's store pre-f2p. No powers, no devices.
Gameplay-altering items didn't appear on CO's store until the f2p switch was flipped. The stipend was agreed to by the EP (it wasn't in the original plan) because it was acknowledged that player concerns over the deal-changing nature of f2p and the item shop were legitimate. Your comparion to CO doesn't hold, and I suggest it actually impugns the integrity that CO's team has shown in comparison to STO's.
The RI only has objective bonuses over the Nova. It loses nothing. There is no counter that exists to 'more', and the effects are relevant in PvE except to those who never... oh wait. Even those who only leave on autofire and do nothing else can get a bonus from the extra engineering console slot. That dstahl refuses to even acknowledge this when captaingecko admitted the obvious in a live interview disturbs me and suggests to me a total lack of integrity and respect for concerned customers.
Oh, and SquidheadJax is a Champions Online player. As am I. Since pre-launch. A LTSer in fact. *points to avatar* So yeah, we'd kinda know this stuff...
/edit
Pre-launch LTS as well, yes. And I participated actively in the discussions with the CO staff regarding the f2p change, along with being part of the first wave of the f2p beta.
Also, I'm done bothering to argue with yet another person whose argument boils down to 'the devs are the devs, therefore they must be right'.
They either never fix these bugs in a timely fashion, claim the bugs are "meant to be in the game," or break 5 other things trying to repair the original issue. Then you have "lather, rinse, repeat."
Bugs occur in every piece of software ever written. It takes time and lots of eyes and reading to find them all.
"Ignorant" was the kindest word I could think of when I read this.
I am offended that you would consider "ignorant" my suggestion that is available to any player of any game.
But, I understand the source and why you're taking that point of view. I forgive you.
Only if those ships aren't horribly unbalanced when compared to the others of its tier. PvP and STF's *are* the end game until something else crops up.
The ships are balanced according to Cryptics design and rules and not in accordance with the players design or rules. In other words, they are fine for Cryptics STO, but they may not be fine for your STO.
I'll say it again and continue to repeat it until posters start to realize the "truth", and that there is NO "end-game" content in STO because STO is not a progression-oriented MMORPG like say "WoW' is.
The only place in STO where mathematics are the rule of the day is in competitive PvP matches where the entrants can be limited in accordance with the PvP event organizers wishes.
In STF's it really doesn't matter about any sort of perceived "unbalance" in any ship, gear or build, as the team works together to complete the mission and not against or in competition with each other.
I don't know how at this point (other than Diplomacy) there is any other way to play except "pew pew BOOM." I know people need to learn to think outside the box, but you're looking way too hard.
I'm not looking way too hard. I enjoy STO for it is because I get the way in which the developers created the game and the way in which it is meant to be played.
A cartoon costume which includes a bugged console, a second engineering console slot *and* an extra Lt. Boff station. I can see both sides of the argument, but one thing is for certain: If F2P was the intention of this ship and all others coming down the pipe, they need to learn that the C-Store is *not* the way to implement these things.
The implementation of additional ships, even those with special abilities or powers expands on the available props and costumes that players can use to enjoy in Cryptics STO. They offer specialized ships for a fee in the C-Store which is available to those wishing to purchase the ship.
Sir, I will not stop trying to "get" people to understand the type of game that Cryptic makes and STO is.
These forums are in flames because of posters that are mistaken in their perception of what STO is which leads them to be misinformed and frustrated about the decisions the developers make concerning Cryptics STO.
Unless and until I am banned for defending STO while following the forums rules, I will continue to exercise my privilege of posting my opinions and views regarding STO in these forums.
Oh, and SquidheadJax is a Champions Online player. As am I. Since pre-launch. A LTSer in fact. *points to avatar* So yeah, we'd kinda know this stuff...
/edit
So then you guys DO realize that STO is just "Champions in Space", costumed in the ST IP, already?
Wonderful! Then you understand just what sort of MMORPG STO is and you "get it"? Outstanding!
Can I also assume that you understand that the mathematics involved with the C-Store ships only effect PvPers who can reach an agreement on what they'll accept in a competitive PvP match?
No the Rhode Island is not. Would you like me to link you to the STOked interview where CaptainGeko says the Rhode Island is overpowered? Overpowered =/= balanced.
Sir, I will not stop trying to "get" people to understand the type of game that Cryptic makes and STO is.
You don't even KNOW the type of game it is. You completely ignore everything that doesn't coincide with your laughably narrow viewpoint and draw comparisons in ignorance to games you know nothing about.
And as such... why should anyone trust anything you say? What you've done is beyond a simple mistake. What you've said about Champions you flat out manufactured. It's not just that you were mistaken, you made specific claims about something you obviously knew nothing about.
These forums are in flames because of posters that are mistaken in their perception of what STO is which leads them to be misinformed and frustrated...
So then you guys DO realize that STO is just "Champions in Space", costumed in the ST IP, already?
Wonderful! Then you understand just what sort of MMORPG STO is and you "get it"? Outstanding!
No, we realize that you have no clue what you're talking about.
And in all honestly, I have doubts that you believe a single word you're posting and are likely just trying to incite others.
edit
Oh, and nice... totally overlooking where two posters totally called you on your bull, ignoring the facts completely, and then trying act as though what you've said still has merit. Yeah, like I said... "just trying to incite others." Be less obvious next time, it'll work better for you... :rolleyes:
Bugs occur in every piece of software ever written. It takes time and lots of eyes and reading to find them all.
I am offended that you would consider "ignorant" my suggestion that is available to any player of any game.
But, I understand the source and why you're taking that point of view. I forgive you.
The ships are balanced according to Cryptics design and rules and not in accordance with the players design or rules. In other words, they are fine for Cryptics STO, but they may not be fine for your STO.
I'll say it again and continue to repeat it until posters start to realize the "truth", and that there is NO "end-game" content in STO because STO is not a progression-oriented MMORPG like say "WoW' is.
The only place in STO where mathematics are the rule of the day is in competitive PvP matches where the entrants can be limited in accordance with the PvP event organizers wishes.
In STF's it really doesn't matter about any sort of perceived "unbalance" in any ship, gear or build, as the team works together to complete the mission and not against or in competition with each other.
I'm not looking way too hard. I enjoy STO for it is because I get the way in which the developers created the game and the way in which it is meant to be played.
The implementation of additional ships, even those with special abilities or powers expands on the available props and costumes that players can use to enjoy in Cryptics STO. They offer specialized ships for a fee in the C-Store which is available to those wishing to purchase the ship.
And this reply is exactly why some people are not assuming good things about this poster...
Utter garbage. I bought the RI , I do not do fleet actions, I do not do PvP at all. I have not used its special power once in PvE. I bought it because it cost me less than a pizza and it looks cool and because I could. Don't hate me for having money or not being a tight ***.
Oh right I win because I have a ship that I PvE with in single missions....... Oh right whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine ( so I fit in more )
So would you have bought the RI if it was just a ship skin? If so, then you probably don't fall into the pro-P2W camp. If not, then you're probably not being completely honest.
Costumes are an entirely different thing, something I have never been opposed to. And that plus character services (including respecs, which were available in-game both full and partial) were the only things that ended up on CO's store pre-f2p. No powers, no devices.
When I use the term "costumes" I am referring to everything that gets draped or put on your controllable avatar in the game. This covers both the humanoid avatar and the ship avatar. The "props" are the gear and anything extra.
Gameplay-altering items didn't appear on CO's store until the f2p switch was flipped. The stipend was agreed to by the EP (it wasn't in the original plan) because it was acknowledged that player concerns over the deal-changing nature of f2p and the item shop were legitimate. Your comparion to CO doesn't hold, and I suggest it actually impugns the integrity that CO's team has shown in comparison to STO's.
So how long from CO's release until it went free to play? And does the CO team not work in the same building as the STO team at Cryptic? I mean they do share game-engine programmers probably, being such a small shop and all. And I think I remember reading something somewhere that the costume artists work on all of the games at one point or another.
Both of the games use the same game engine designed and programmed by the very same development house that produces all of Cryptics games. The games are designed and coded in much the same way except for the "art-work".
Game engines usually can only do things "one way" like for instance provide the means for a comic book based MMORPG cartoon game to run and play in the same manner that a Star Trek based MMORPG cartoon game does. Now you might have a better understanding of why I compare STO with CO.
The RI only has objective bonuses over the Nova. It loses nothing. There is no counter that exists to 'more', and the effects are relevant in PvE except to those who never... oh wait. Even those who only leave on autofire and do nothing else can get a bonus from the extra engineering console slot. That dstahl refuses to even acknowledge this when captaingecko admitted the obvious in a live interview disturbs me and suggests to me a total lack of integrity and respect for concerned customers.
See, there's that admission that the special abilities of the Rhode Island have no relevant impact on PvE content. In other words, the Rhode Island is not a "game-changing" addition to the C-Store. I believe that Mr Stahl phrased it somewhat similarly. So in truth, it's only your own perception of the RI being a game-changer, only in PvP, that leads you to question what Mr Stahl said because you think he meant the entirety of STO. Now, if min/maxing PvPers can come up with a counter to anything that any other ship, skill or ability throws at them, don't you think that the RI really won't have any sort of meaningful effect on PvP in STO. In addition, can not PvPers agree to rules to abide by before entering a competitive PvP match?
Pre-launch LTS as well, yes. And I participated actively in the discussions with the CO staff regarding the f2p change, along with being part of the first wave of the f2p beta.
Congrats! I'm so very glad that you had those opportunities to experience almost everything that Cryptic has to offer in gaming.
Also, I'm done bothering to argue with yet another person whose argument boils down to 'the devs are the devs, therefore they must be right'.
You might be done arguing with someone else, but I would like to make a response to the last line of your posting in our discussions here:
The developers know their own game and what will work within it and what won't work in it. The players only know how to play the game. Well, most of them do.
My reply to SS was only in response to the part of his post that I quoted. You cannot expect me to believe that they place any value at all on our feedback on an item when that feedback is, in whole, ignored. Sales, yes, they will pay attention to sales, and I assure you that this ship will sell to those oblivious to long term implications thereof. I don't believe those sales will, in the long term, compensate for the lost subscriptions and further c-store sales that will result from a continuing policy of this type. Continuing this policy will result in an escalating trend where in order to sell the next ship, it will have to be more powerful than the last ship. Encounters will have to be ramped up to balance the more powerful ships with the long term result being that if you do not spend money in the store, you will not be able to hold your own in those encounters.
If gameplay mechanics were meaningless, they could have saved a lot of money by not designing mechanical systems at all.
They're not meaningless in the games you purport to use as examples, and they're not here.
And furthermore, if they're meaningless, there's no reason to sell a ship with objectively boosted abilities, either. And there's a good reason not to, in that they promised they wouldn't.
Game play mechanics are what games run on and are not meaningless. The addition of ships that fit within those game play mechanics serves only to provide additional options for players to enjoy. These new ships will not "change" the PvE game at all. These new ships are additional props and costumes offered on the C-Store for players to purchase and use in their game play.
I don't doubt that they might have some sort of "perceived" change in PvP as the average PvPers leave matches in droves at the first sign of an "unbeatable" Rhode Island class T2 starship costume and the PvPer doesn't have the first clue as to how to counter it.
How will the addition of this ship, or any future ship, alter your STO PvE game? I understand it will take all of 10mins before PvP Min/Maxers have figured out a build or counter to anything that the devs can throw at them ship, build or gear-wise. But how will the addition of any of these C-Store ships truly and really effect your PvE if you chose not purchase them?
How will the addition of this ship, or any future ship, alter your STO PvE game? I understand it will take all of 10mins before PvP Min/Maxers have figured out a build or counter to anything that the devs can throw at them ship, build or gear-wise. But how will the addition of any of these C-Store ships truly and really effect your PvE if you chose not purchase them?
Fleet actions, for one. Top players get very rare and rare items, accolades and trophies (everyone else gets an uncommon). If a pay-to-win ship was played entirely solo in PvE then yes, it wouldn't have an impact on game balance -- but that is definitely not the case.
Game play mechanics are what games run on and are not meaningless. The addition of ships that fit within those game play mechanics serves only to provide additional options for players to enjoy. These new ships will not "change" the PvE game at all. These new ships are additional props and costumes offered on the C-Store for players to purchase and use in their game play.
I don't doubt that they might have some sort of "perceived" change in PvP as the average PvPers leave matches in droves at the first sign of an "unbeatable" Rhode Island class T2 starship costume and the PvPer doesn't have the first clue as to how to counter it.
How will the addition of this ship, or any future ship, alter your STO PvE game? I understand it will take all of 10mins before PvP Min/Maxers have figured out a build or counter to anything that the devs can throw at them ship, build or gear-wise. But how will the addition of any of these C-Store ships truly and really effect your PvE if you chose not purchase them?
Yet arbitrarily breaking a certain facet of the game's mechanics namely Tier conventions via the C-Store for a quick buck is fine?
Reposting here as well, since it is actually more relevant here:
Initially, at least, we're planning for a pair of new lower-tier KDF Gorn science vessels, one available at Commander and another at Captain.
As well, we are planning for a similar pair of lower-tier KDF Orion carriers, each probably with a single hanger bay and capable of launching a modified version of Orion interceptors and possibly Tod'uj fighters as well. These will be based off of existing ship art.
All of the above are planned to be on par with the Rhode Island for their respective tiers.
Three of the four of the above ships' consoles were among those I built last week. Geko is mostly done with determining the new bridge officer allocations for each these ships as of yesterday. That being said, these will probably come out towards the end of this new run of ships.
When the resources and internal priorities line up, we would like to provide additional ones at Lieutenant Commander at well, but no promises here - getting even these has been a major effort, as the cloning experiments on Captain Logan and Captain Geko haven't, um, turned out quite as well as we had hoped.
From here.
Bolded and colored for convenience. There's at least a t3 and a t4 listed right there that are 'on par' with the RI.
...
The RI only has objective bonuses over the Nova. It loses nothing. There is no counter that exists to 'more', and the effects are relevant in PvE except to those who never... oh wait. Even those who only leave on autofire and do nothing else can get a bonus from the extra engineering console slot. ....
Actually the higher impulse modifier makes them go faster so they have better bonus defense as well!
These new ships will not "change" the PvE game at all.
Cryptic will have to account for these X.5 ships when designing new missions. That means increased difficulty. While not necessarily a bad thing, Cryptic's track record with balancing PvE NPC's is hit or miss. Also, while purely speculative at this point, it's not unreasonable to think that the reason the STF's are getting a Chuck Norris mode is because there will be more powerful ships to run them. So P2W C-$tore ships will definitely affect PvE gameplay.
No the Rhode Island is not. Would you like me to link you to the STOked interview where CaptainGeko says the Rhode Island is overpowered? Overpowered =/= balanced.
You left off a significant portion of the sentence that I typed and focused only on those three beginning words while ignoring the rest completely. Let me repeat it - the devs balance the ships and gear according to THEIR design and rules, NOT to the players design and rules. That's better.
You don't even KNOW the type of game it is. You completely ignore everything that doesn't coincide with your laughably narrow viewpoint and draw comparisons in ignorance to games you know nothing about.
Would you care to prove that I don't know what type of MMORPG that STO is? I don't think you really can.
Yes, I do have a differing opinion from you regarding what sort of game I view STO as. The thing is, if you really could prove me wrong and back up your opinion that I don't even know what type of game STO is then you would do so. You can't. And about my view point regarding STO, if you, or any other of the posters in these forums were to step back a little and try to see the game as I do, you would probably enjoy the game more for what it truly is.
I ignore nothing in regards to STO. I read these forums, the engineering reports and everything else that I can regarding the STO that I've enjoyed since closed beta. I do tend to dismiss baseless opinions of posters that I think really have no basis in fact regarding just about everything in STO.
[/QUOTE]
And as such... why should anyone trust anything you say? What you've done is beyond a simple mistake. What you've said about Champions you flat out manufactured. It's not just that you were mistaken, you made specific claims about something you obviously knew nothing about.
I'm not asking you to trust me or anything that I type. I am asking you to take a step back from the game, and these forums, and try to see STO in the way in which the developers intended for STO to be played and experienced. You just might develop a different opinion of STO, the devs, Dan and Cryptic.
No, we realize that you have no clue what you're talking about.
And in all honestly, I have doubts that you believe a single word you're posting and are likely just trying to incite others.
If you truly thought that I had or have no clue as to what I'm talking about, then you would not be responding to my posts with attempts to dismiss what I say simply because it might challenge your own perceptions and expectations regarding STO.
edit
Oh, and nice... totally overlooking where two posters totally called you on your bull, ignoring the facts completely, and then trying act as though what you've said still has merit. Yeah, like I said... "just trying to incite others." Be less obvious next time, it'll work better for you... :rolleyes: edit
I'm not overlooking anything, I'll get to those other postings in my own time.
Now, why won't you discuss with me and the rest of forums your own perceptions and expectations of STO?
Comments
Well, I will add one thing to this. Dan wanted V'Ger in the game. And he got it...in a way (look at the new Borg Command Ship). Yet we, as customers and fans ask for balance in the C-Store....and what do we get? Called the vocal minority. (this is not trolling, it is stating facts).
The thing is, Mustrum, that there is no reason whatsoever to accommodate both sides in this "Champions In Space" that STO is. There is no other side to accommodate as PvPers have it within their own power to dictate which builds, gear and ships that they will allow in competitive PvP.
As for PvE fleet actions if you personally have an issue with a ship that other players command and they are teamed with you, then by all means, feel free to try another instance of the Fleet Action where your perception of fairness will be more easily served.
You keep saying that, except Champions didn't include anything like this until it went f2p, and even now it's not nearly so jarring there.
Why are you so afraid of going up against what you perceive as a "pay to win" ship? Not up to the challenge?
How often do you play competitive PvP matches where entrants are forced to play "pre-made" builds? How often do you run into the "pre-made builds" in normal PvP and wind up losing to them?
Bugs can be fixed with a patch. NEXT!
So jump in another Fleet Action where there's nothing but "new players" and win your epic lewtz! NEXT!
There is NO "end-game" to or in STO. Incorrect assumption. More ship options are better for the players and the game. NEXT!
While I can't provide an argument against an opinion, I will state with un-equivocal fact that the implementation of the Rhode Island with it being sold in the C-Store for the moment and all the other ships that the devs will be bringing into STO, will NOT adversely effect Cryptics STO in any way. It "might" effect those "players" that don't "get" STO" and how it's meant to be played.
Why do you "players" insist on arguing against a cartoon costume intended to be used in a comic-book game?
Cite the threads in question.
Lifetime members don't get away with breaking the rules. In fact we've lost valuable members because they kept breaking rules.
The only people who I've seen banned challenge the authority of the mods with repeated rule violations. It's no different than any other reasonably moderated site. If you don't agree with their moderating or the rules, don't post.
If gameplay mechanics were meaningless, they could have saved a lot of money by not designing mechanical systems at all.
They're not meaningless in the games you purport to use as examples, and they're not here.
And furthermore, if they're meaningless, there's no reason to sell a ship with objectively boosted abilities, either. And there's a good reason not to, in that they promised they wouldn't.
Anything like what, Squid? Please enlighten me.
I think they offered special costumes and powers and such on the C-Store and the game didn't fall off the edge of the earth.
On a slightly different note, I will admit that there is some mathematics involved with the Rhode Island that the PvP Min/Maxers will go nuts over trying to min/max and counter the Rhode Island. It's what they do. In the meantime, competitive PvP matches can be limited to pre-made builds and specific ships only which would allow for PvPers to exclude that dangerous, unbeatable, "Pay to Win" ship called the Rhode Island.
They either never fix these bugs in a timely fashion, claim the bugs are "meant to be in the game," or break 5 other things trying to repair the original issue. Then you have "lather, rinse, repeat."
"Ignorant" was the kindest word I could think of when I read this.
Only if those ships aren't horribly unbalanced when compared to the others of its tier. PvP and STF's *are* the end game until something else crops up.
I don't know how at this point (other than Diplomacy) there is any other way to play except "pew pew BOOM." I know people need to learn to think outside the box, but you're looking way too hard.
A cartoon costume which includes a bugged console, a second engineering consloe slot *and* an extra Lt. Boff station. I can see both sides of the argument, but one thing is for certain: If F2P was the intention of this ship and all others coming down the pipe, they need to learn that the C-Store is *not* the way to implement these things.
Please stop trying. Your arguments are erroneous.
Without launching into a long-winded dissertation on computer game programming, sometimes you just can't separate one-thing from another even though there are issues involved. Sometimes a "patch" involves fixing something by changing one line of code but there's another line of code somewhere else that relied on that first line that was changed and now it's "bugged". Sometimes the issue doesn't manifest until the code is released to "live" and is slammed hard by a high number of users.
I will guarantee you that there are still bugs within the games coding. Probably all ways will be as the game changes and evolves over time with different developers making the changes.
No they did not.
Up until F2P there were NO powers in the store. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch.
Even after, all powers (beyond cosmetic swaps for travel powers) are available to subscribers FREE, with perhaps the exception of the Transformation devices, which simply (a) offer powers the subscribers already have access to in various combinations, (b) are underpowered, and (c) CAN'T be used in PvP at all.
You seem to have already admitted you have not played Champions, merely watched your son play it so perhaps you merely don't know any better, which is an excellent reason to not pretend like you do.
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Oh, and SquidheadJax is a Champions Online player. As am I. Since pre-launch. A LTSer in fact. *points to avatar* So yeah, we'd kinda know this stuff...
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Costumes are an entirely different thing, something I have never been opposed to. And that plus character services (including respecs, which were available in-game both full and partial) were the only things that ended up on CO's store pre-f2p. No powers, no devices.
Gameplay-altering items didn't appear on CO's store until the f2p switch was flipped. The stipend was agreed to by the EP (it wasn't in the original plan) because it was acknowledged that player concerns over the deal-changing nature of f2p and the item shop were legitimate. Your comparion to CO doesn't hold, and I suggest it actually impugns the integrity that CO's team has shown in comparison to STO's.
The RI only has objective bonuses over the Nova. It loses nothing. There is no counter that exists to 'more', and the effects are relevant in PvE except to those who never... oh wait. Even those who only leave on autofire and do nothing else can get a bonus from the extra engineering console slot. That dstahl refuses to even acknowledge this when captaingecko admitted the obvious in a live interview disturbs me and suggests to me a total lack of integrity and respect for concerned customers.
Pre-launch LTS as well, yes. And I participated actively in the discussions with the CO staff regarding the f2p change, along with being part of the first wave of the f2p beta.
Also, I'm done bothering to argue with yet another person whose argument boils down to 'the devs are the devs, therefore they must be right'.
Bugs occur in every piece of software ever written. It takes time and lots of eyes and reading to find them all.
I am offended that you would consider "ignorant" my suggestion that is available to any player of any game.
But, I understand the source and why you're taking that point of view. I forgive you.
The ships are balanced according to Cryptics design and rules and not in accordance with the players design or rules. In other words, they are fine for Cryptics STO, but they may not be fine for your STO.
I'll say it again and continue to repeat it until posters start to realize the "truth", and that there is NO "end-game" content in STO because STO is not a progression-oriented MMORPG like say "WoW' is.
The only place in STO where mathematics are the rule of the day is in competitive PvP matches where the entrants can be limited in accordance with the PvP event organizers wishes.
In STF's it really doesn't matter about any sort of perceived "unbalance" in any ship, gear or build, as the team works together to complete the mission and not against or in competition with each other.
I'm not looking way too hard. I enjoy STO for it is because I get the way in which the developers created the game and the way in which it is meant to be played.
The implementation of additional ships, even those with special abilities or powers expands on the available props and costumes that players can use to enjoy in Cryptics STO. They offer specialized ships for a fee in the C-Store which is available to those wishing to purchase the ship.
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Sir, I will not stop trying to "get" people to understand the type of game that Cryptic makes and STO is.
These forums are in flames because of posters that are mistaken in their perception of what STO is which leads them to be misinformed and frustrated about the decisions the developers make concerning Cryptics STO.
Unless and until I am banned for defending STO while following the forums rules, I will continue to exercise my privilege of posting my opinions and views regarding STO in these forums.
Thank you!
So then you guys DO realize that STO is just "Champions in Space", costumed in the ST IP, already?
Wonderful! Then you understand just what sort of MMORPG STO is and you "get it"? Outstanding!
Can I also assume that you understand that the mathematics involved with the C-Store ships only effect PvPers who can reach an agreement on what they'll accept in a competitive PvP match?
No the Rhode Island is not. Would you like me to link you to the STOked interview where CaptainGeko says the Rhode Island is overpowered? Overpowered =/= balanced.
You don't even KNOW the type of game it is. You completely ignore everything that doesn't coincide with your laughably narrow viewpoint and draw comparisons in ignorance to games you know nothing about.
And as such... why should anyone trust anything you say? What you've done is beyond a simple mistake. What you've said about Champions you flat out manufactured. It's not just that you were mistaken, you made specific claims about something you obviously knew nothing about.
You probably can't tell, but I'm LMAO right now.
No, we realize that you have no clue what you're talking about.
And in all honestly, I have doubts that you believe a single word you're posting and are likely just trying to incite others.
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Oh, and nice... totally overlooking where two posters totally called you on your bull, ignoring the facts completely, and then trying act as though what you've said still has merit. Yeah, like I said... "just trying to incite others." Be less obvious next time, it'll work better for you... :rolleyes:
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And this reply is exactly why some people are not assuming good things about this poster...
So would you have bought the RI if it was just a ship skin? If so, then you probably don't fall into the pro-P2W camp. If not, then you're probably not being completely honest.
Z
Done. Thanks for pointing it out.
When I use the term "costumes" I am referring to everything that gets draped or put on your controllable avatar in the game. This covers both the humanoid avatar and the ship avatar. The "props" are the gear and anything extra.
So how long from CO's release until it went free to play? And does the CO team not work in the same building as the STO team at Cryptic? I mean they do share game-engine programmers probably, being such a small shop and all. And I think I remember reading something somewhere that the costume artists work on all of the games at one point or another.
Both of the games use the same game engine designed and programmed by the very same development house that produces all of Cryptics games. The games are designed and coded in much the same way except for the "art-work".
Game engines usually can only do things "one way" like for instance provide the means for a comic book based MMORPG cartoon game to run and play in the same manner that a Star Trek based MMORPG cartoon game does. Now you might have a better understanding of why I compare STO with CO.
See, there's that admission that the special abilities of the Rhode Island have no relevant impact on PvE content. In other words, the Rhode Island is not a "game-changing" addition to the C-Store. I believe that Mr Stahl phrased it somewhat similarly. So in truth, it's only your own perception of the RI being a game-changer, only in PvP, that leads you to question what Mr Stahl said because you think he meant the entirety of STO. Now, if min/maxing PvPers can come up with a counter to anything that any other ship, skill or ability throws at them, don't you think that the RI really won't have any sort of meaningful effect on PvP in STO. In addition, can not PvPers agree to rules to abide by before entering a competitive PvP match?
Congrats! I'm so very glad that you had those opportunities to experience almost everything that Cryptic has to offer in gaming.
You might be done arguing with someone else, but I would like to make a response to the last line of your posting in our discussions here:
The developers know their own game and what will work within it and what won't work in it. The players only know how to play the game. Well, most of them do.
Game play mechanics are what games run on and are not meaningless. The addition of ships that fit within those game play mechanics serves only to provide additional options for players to enjoy. These new ships will not "change" the PvE game at all. These new ships are additional props and costumes offered on the C-Store for players to purchase and use in their game play.
I don't doubt that they might have some sort of "perceived" change in PvP as the average PvPers leave matches in droves at the first sign of an "unbeatable" Rhode Island class T2 starship costume and the PvPer doesn't have the first clue as to how to counter it.
How will the addition of this ship, or any future ship, alter your STO PvE game? I understand it will take all of 10mins before PvP Min/Maxers have figured out a build or counter to anything that the devs can throw at them ship, build or gear-wise. But how will the addition of any of these C-Store ships truly and really effect your PvE if you chose not purchase them?
Fleet actions, for one. Top players get very rare and rare items, accolades and trophies (everyone else gets an uncommon). If a pay-to-win ship was played entirely solo in PvE then yes, it wouldn't have an impact on game balance -- but that is definitely not the case.
Yet arbitrarily breaking a certain facet of the game's mechanics namely Tier conventions via the C-Store for a quick buck is fine?
Bolded and colored for convenience. There's at least a t3 and a t4 listed right there that are 'on par' with the RI. Actually the higher impulse modifier makes them go faster so they have better bonus defense as well!
Cryptic will have to account for these X.5 ships when designing new missions. That means increased difficulty. While not necessarily a bad thing, Cryptic's track record with balancing PvE NPC's is hit or miss. Also, while purely speculative at this point, it's not unreasonable to think that the reason the STF's are getting a Chuck Norris mode is because there will be more powerful ships to run them. So P2W C-$tore ships will definitely affect PvE gameplay.
Z
And to think...people acted like I was being paranoid and just giving into speculation. Funny how that works.
You left off a significant portion of the sentence that I typed and focused only on those three beginning words while ignoring the rest completely. Let me repeat it - the devs balance the ships and gear according to THEIR design and rules, NOT to the players design and rules. That's better.
Would you care to prove that I don't know what type of MMORPG that STO is? I don't think you really can.
Yes, I do have a differing opinion from you regarding what sort of game I view STO as. The thing is, if you really could prove me wrong and back up your opinion that I don't even know what type of game STO is then you would do so. You can't. And about my view point regarding STO, if you, or any other of the posters in these forums were to step back a little and try to see the game as I do, you would probably enjoy the game more for what it truly is.
I ignore nothing in regards to STO. I read these forums, the engineering reports and everything else that I can regarding the STO that I've enjoyed since closed beta. I do tend to dismiss baseless opinions of posters that I think really have no basis in fact regarding just about everything in STO.
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I'm not asking you to trust me or anything that I type. I am asking you to take a step back from the game, and these forums, and try to see STO in the way in which the developers intended for STO to be played and experienced. You just might develop a different opinion of STO, the devs, Dan and Cryptic.
If you truly thought that I had or have no clue as to what I'm talking about, then you would not be responding to my posts with attempts to dismiss what I say simply because it might challenge your own perceptions and expectations regarding STO.
I'm not overlooking anything, I'll get to those other postings in my own time.
Now, why won't you discuss with me and the rest of forums your own perceptions and expectations of STO?