Going to have to break my promise for a bit about staying out of this thread. Two definitions of overpowered being used in this thread, slightly better and overwhelming power. Me and the OP use the overwhelming power definition of overpowered while others use the slightly better definition. To me the RI would be overpowered if it could solo against 5 or more decent PvPers in T5 ships. Since I doubt that it can solo against 2 Novas, then it is not OP according to my definition.
It's still statistically better, it would still best a player of equal ability in a standard Nova. Thats paying for power.
To throw my 2 bars of latinum in on the word "overpowered", my personal definition in gaming terms is something you dont stand a chance against. If you do stand a chance against it then its not really OP. Stronger and OP are not necessarily the same thing, as something can be stronger than you but you still stand a decent chance against it.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
Which of course (a) would never happen in game anyway, and (b) is so far beyond ridiculous that I am absolutely astonished and appalled that you would think that makes a legitimate argument for the ships.
:rolleyes:
True, but that is my definition of overpowered. If you want a more reasonable example, then an RI going up against any T5 ship piloted by a decent player.
It's still statistically better, it would still best a player of equal ability in a standard Nova. Thats paying for power.
Thread is about the definition of overpowered. Me and the OP claim that the RI is better than the Nova which nobody denies, but it is not overpowered. Whether paying for power is acceptable or not is beyond the scope of the thread as defined by the OP and other threads are out there about that issue.
To throw my 2 bars of latinum in on the word "overpowered", my personal definition in gaming terms is something you dont stand a chance against. If you do stand a chance against it then its not really OP. Stronger and OP are not necessarily the same thing, as something can be stronger than you but you still stand a decent chance against it.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
True, but that is my definition of overpowered. If you want a more reasonable example, then an RI going up against any T5 ship piloted by a decent player.
That's about as reasonable as a drunken penguin driving a hot rod. The Rhode Island is not a Tier 5 ship. It's Tier TWO.
To throw my 2 bars of latinum in on the word "overpowered", my personal definition in gaming terms is something you dont stand a chance against. If you do stand a chance against it then its not really OP. Stronger and OP are not necessarily the same thing, as something can be stronger than you but you still stand a decent chance against it.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
So then Beam Fire at Will was never overpowered? I don't think you'd find a lot of people who would agree with that.
Thread is about the definition of overpowered. Me and the OP claim that the RI is better than the Nova which nobody denies, but it is not overpowered. Whether paying for power is acceptable or not is beyond the scope of the thread as defined by the OP and other threads are out there about that issue.
You and the OP also seem to think that it should typically be up against T5 ships.
So how about this. It's power is over that of ships in the same tier it is in when they are supposed to be balanced and fair.
Your arguement for it not being overpowered relies on tunnel vision directed atthe wrong part of the game, only seeing the impact on endgame. There is a T2, you're not in it for long but it's still in the game. And what happens if/when this happens at T5? (yes thats beyond the scope of this thread too but it remains the ever present elephant in the room)
To throw my 2 bars of latinum in on the word "overpowered", my personal definition in gaming terms is something you dont stand a chance against. If you do stand a chance against it then its not really OP. Stronger and OP are not necessarily the same thing, as something can be stronger than you but you still stand a decent chance against it.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
The players are part of the playing field. That is why you don't have NFL players going against High School Football players. An NFL player can expect a certain level of competence from the opposing team. Sure there is various levels of skill in the NFL or High School Football, but it is not at such a level where one is completely useless or dominates the game. With PvP, there is a mix of High School level players and NFL level players playing against each other since the public queue exists. Only way to have only competent level matches is to set up the PvP match personally with people you know are competent. It is not fun to fight PvP noobs if you are into the challenge of going against a decent opponent. However, this is a problem with PvP and not the RI and similar ships.
I could personally care less about the RI since it doesn't interest me. PvP doesn't interest me as well so I could care less what another person is using. Probably won't find many people except a vocal minority that care about these new X.5 ships being better about their counterparts since the world is filled with apathy about stuff that doesn't concern them.
I'd think it's more like high school is 1 tier, college another and nfl is even higher up the tiers. Meaning they're segregated by the game mechanics.
Never said anything about NFL teams playing in High School leagues or High School teams playing in the NFL. I said NFL players playing against High School players which is possible. Not all matches have to have an audience. You can get a Football match together with CFL players, NFL players, and High School Football players as long as it is just for fun.
As far as STO being all one league, then that is debatable. Each player has their own personal preference of what part of STO we play in. A league means that everyone has the ability to play with each other. A person that only PvPs will not play with a person that only raids.
I love being obtuse since part of my handle is about being obtuse. Chaos is all about being obtuse.
And the mixed tiers can be made by private matches and invites.
You and the OP also seem to think that it should typically be up against T5 ships.
So how about this. It's power is over that of ships in the same tier it is in when they are supposed to be balanced and fair.
Your arguement for it not being overpowered relies on tunnel vision directed atthe wrong part of the game, only seeing the impact on endgame. There is a T2, you're not in it for long but it's still in the game. And what happens if/when this happens at T5? (yes thats beyond the scope of this thread too but it remains the ever present elephant in the room)
T5 was merely used as an example of what overpowered is according to my definition. It should never go against T5 ships unless piloted by one of these people that like to take lesser ships into PvP for a challenge. If it can stand up to a T5 ship, then it would be overpowered compared to T2 ships. Never claimed it was balanced or fair compared to other T2 ships just that it is not overpowered compared to the Nova. 1 console, 1 Lt. Science power, and an escape power makes the ship more powerful than the Nova, but not overpowered according to my definition. If we can't come to terms with what is meant by overpowered, then we can't agree with whether the ship is overpowered or not.
I will agree with your second statement that its power is over that of ships in the same tier when they should be balanced and fair. A nerf to its turn rate or hull should make it more balanced and fair.
T5 was merely used as an example of what overpowered is according to my definition. It should never go against T5 ships unless piloted by one of these people that like to take lesser ships into PvP for a challenge. If it can stand up to a T5 ship, then it would be overpowered compared to T2 ships. Never claimed it was balanced or fair compared to other T2 ships just that it is not overpowered compared to the Nova. 1 console, 1 Lt. Science power, and an escape power makes the ship more powerful than the Nova, but not overpowered according to my definition. If we can't come to terms with what is meant by overpowered, then we can't agree with whether the ship is overpowered or not.
I will agree with your second statement that its power is over that of ships in the same tier when they should be balanced and fair. A nerf to its turn rate or hull should make it more balanced and fair.
How do you measure 'stand up to' as it stood my last try at it 1v1 vs an excelsior, I was unable to kill him, but i did last for a while before being destroyed.
'Stock' Nova btw.
I've changed a few powers but haven't had the chance to fight him again yet.
This is without the extra heal I'd probably put in the LT slot.
If I got the Rhode Island, from my limited look on tribble, I'd be able to upgrade the ensign heal to a lt heal and still pick up another power, my choice of an escape power or more console goodness. And I even get back 5 energy from the impulse modifier boost!
I could drop my engine power down 5 points and only drop from +80% bonus defense to +79.9% bonus defense!
T5 was merely used as an example of what overpowered is according to my definition. It should never go against T5 ships unless piloted by one of these people that like to take lesser ships into PvP for a challenge. If it can stand up to a T5 ship, then it would be overpowered compared to T2 ships. Never claimed it was balanced or fair compared to other T2 ships just that it is not overpowered compared to the Nova. 1 console, 1 Lt. Science power, and an escape power makes the ship more powerful than the Nova, but not overpowered according to my definition. If we can't come to terms with what is meant by overpowered, then we can't agree with whether the ship is overpowered or not.
I will agree with your second statement that its power is over that of ships in the same tier when they should be balanced and fair. A nerf to its turn rate or hull should make it more balanced and fair.
And it is at that point where we are just splitting hairs over definitions rather than addressing the actual issue and complaint of those against the RI. In fact, looking back on it I'd say thats all the OP has done, split hairs over the specific words used rather than discussing the actual reason such words, or others like them, are being used.
I think then, that the debate over by what definition should the ship be deemed overpowered had better be dropped.
You make it sound like t2 pvp is pretty hopping. :P It isnt... no one really pvps until they get to VA or whatever the KDF version is.
I did some PvP just yesterday at that level to prove you wrong. And I know others did as well. But I was surprised tha the Rhode Island was nowhere to be seen (though I know from the "com chatter" on Organized PvP that some acquired it. Damn PvPers traitor ). Maybe the ship doesn't sell that good after all, which is kinda what I hope*. But it could be a Q-Boost artifact. We'll see what happens.
My only qualm with the RI is that the console is hilariously bugged right now.
That's also an issue... Once again, Tribble feedback leads to no changes. I don't even know why the ship was delayed in the first place? I haven't checked the customziation option, as that would require to buy them, have those been fixed? (Something with only one type of Windows available).
*) Which I also kinda find horrible to hope, because it's not as if don't Cryptic to make money. But - that's what vote with your wallet leads to, inevitably.
To throw my 2 bars of latinum in on the word "overpowered", my personal definition in gaming terms is something you dont stand a chance against. If you do stand a chance against it then its not really OP. Stronger and OP are not necessarily the same thing, as something can be stronger than you but you still stand a decent chance against it.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
Overpowered for me means: "Over the power of something else". At least in the context if the "something else" has the same purpose, in this case, be a Science Vessel appropriate for Lieutenant Commanders.
I've said this many times before in another thread and will gladly keep saying it here, all you people who have no issue with this, would you still be so relaxed if Cryptic was selling a T5.5 which had an undisputed statistical advantage over every other ship of T5? The 'moaning' about the RI is as much about the preciddent it sets and the line it crosses than about the ship itself.
I've said this many times before in another thread and will gladly keep saying it here, all you people who have no issue with this, would you still be so relaxed if Cryptic was selling a T5.5 which had an undisputed statistical advantage over every other ship of T5? The 'moaning' about the RI is as much about the preciddent it sets and the line it crosses than about the ship itself.
Well, you are a bit too late with this argument, since the T5 Excelsior had its launch as exclusive C-Store item several month's ago.
Well, you are a bit too late with this argument, since the T5 Excelsior had its launch as exclusive C-Store item several month's ago.
The T5 Excelsior is not the same thing. It is a ship which has advantages others do not, but these are well offset and balanced. The same cannot be said of the RI- which is set far above the other ships of its tier- hence the coingage of the concept of Tx.5.
I take your point about the Excelsior though, I had once really hoped that ONLY fluff would EVER find its way into the C Store, and I was unhappy when the Exc was added. At the time though I did not bother to argue the point as I was happy just playing the game- this is a much more naked and worrying form of paying for power though. Anyway- didnt someone once say 'better late than never?'
I've said this many times before in another thread and will gladly keep saying it here, all you people who have no issue with this, would you still be so relaxed if Cryptic was selling a T5.5 which had an undisputed statistical advantage over every other ship of T5? The 'moaning' about the RI is as much about the preciddent it sets and the line it crosses than about the ship itself.
Yes, I think they still would be relaxed. Maybe some people would complain that it is only available through the C-Store, but not many. What do you think how many of those Excelsiors, Nebulas, MVAEs, ... out there are there because people got them by emblem grind? I'm sure not many. They are not even more powerful, just different and players still buy them.
The vast majority of players is not posting on the forums or even reading them and are not PvPers. They see stuff in the C-Store and if they like it, they buy it. If it is better than the things you can get ingame, even better. There is no need for an even playing field outside of PvP, people pay additional money and expect something more powerful, not just different. That's how real life works, so why not in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all against the road we are starting to go with the Rhode Island and it is foolish to think that this ship is a single incident. But the majority of people simply does not care and/or thinks it's a good thing to get power for additional money. We saw that there is no way to change Cryptics mind if they don't want to listen and the silent majority will always be there and "support" them.
Funny how many people who complain about 'pay for power' or 'pay to win' have their very own red matter capacitor. This precedent was embraced by many players since launch. I see an abundance of PvP players who have no qualms about having paid to get extra pre-order bonuses. And some of those are no longer obtainable.
I am not agreeing with any of it. Nor am I arguing against it. It is a fact of the game.
Should a power gamer who pays monthly and plays 10+ hours a day have better gear/ships than a noob who just bought a lifetime sub and everything in the C-Store? Both have financially supported the game. The noob will lack the skills and experience as well as veteran rewards.
I think that the best stuff should be earned in game with sweat and blisters. But it isn't that way in the real world either.
I want STO to live long and prosper. Will pay for power help or hurt? I don't know.
Some players have expressed their concerns and disappointments about the RI and how it's been released.
Feedback received, already. Many, many, many times over.
It's done. There is no longer any point in complaining about it.
Other than continuing to bring up the topic of when it will be released through in-game means in the monthly "Ask Cryptic", enough already.
It's the only new content released lately. So it's really all players have to talk about. Maybe if a new mission or two were released, there would be other topics?
Some players have expressed their concerns and disappointments about the RI and how it's been released.
Feedback received, already. Many, many, many times over.
It's done. There is no longer any point in complaining about it.
So then nothing in the game can ever be fixed or rebalanced? Good to know. Might want to keep that in mind the next time Cryptic releases some showstopper bugs into the game or breaks a power on the original FAW revamp scale.
It's not over until it's over, and (a) the problem persists, and (b) there are 15 more of the exact same problem on the way. Then more after that no doubt.
Yeah, so it ain't over.
So if you're tired of it now, you might want to avoid the forums for several months because this particular tune is likely to last a while...
Save your money, as this kind of future content is going to cost you more than just your resub fees.
You don't have to buy it you know? I have been playing for 5 weeks and not bought a single ship, the game is perferctly fun for me as is. Is this all about PvP again? If it is, I dont think the C-store ships are ruining the game, I think the PvP whiners are.
You don't have to buy it you know? I have been playing for 5 weeks and not bought a single ship, the game is perferctly fun for me as is. Is this all about PvP again? If it is, I dont think the C-store ships are ruining the game, I think the PvP whiners are.
As they add another 15 to 16 of these ships, odds are you are going to have buy one or two eventually. But it'll work out by September 22 when they revamp the economy to streamline it with the c-store better.
And no, it's not about PVP. I haven't PVP'd in this game since 2010. PVP has been very very dead in STO for quite a long time. Kudos to the folks that suffer through with the current state of the game's PVP. But it's seriously under-developed and ignored and not worth the hassle for me.
As they add another 15 to 16 of these ships, odds are you are going to have buy one or two eventually. But it'll work out by September 22 when they revamp the economy to streamline it with the c-store better.
And no, it's not about PVP. I haven't PVP'd in this game since 2010. PVP has been very very dead in STO for quite a long time. Kudos to the folks that suffer through with the current state of the game's PVP. But it's seriously under-developed and ignored and not worth the hassle for me.
Why would I 'have" to buy 1 or 2 of them? Will they make PvE so hard I cannot complete it unless I buy a C-Store ship? Almost every other MMO is going F2P and subscribers get added bonuses. Right now you have C-Store and credits , but (to me ) it looks like they might go F2P and allow the "16 new ships" for subscribers.
Comments
It's still statistically better, it would still best a player of equal ability in a standard Nova. Thats paying for power.
Just for clarity though, that is just my definition of the terms, and does not reflect any specific side in this issue.
/cue laugh track
True, but that is my definition of overpowered. If you want a more reasonable example, then an RI going up against any T5 ship piloted by a decent player.
Thread is about the definition of overpowered. Me and the OP claim that the RI is better than the Nova which nobody denies, but it is not overpowered. Whether paying for power is acceptable or not is beyond the scope of the thread as defined by the OP and other threads are out there about that issue.
Couldn't have said it better.
That's about as reasonable as a drunken penguin driving a hot rod. The Rhode Island is not a Tier 5 ship. It's Tier TWO.
So then Beam Fire at Will was never overpowered? I don't think you'd find a lot of people who would agree with that.
You and the OP also seem to think that it should typically be up against T5 ships.
So how about this. It's power is over that of ships in the same tier it is in when they are supposed to be balanced and fair.
Your arguement for it not being overpowered relies on tunnel vision directed atthe wrong part of the game, only seeing the impact on endgame. There is a T2, you're not in it for long but it's still in the game. And what happens if/when this happens at T5? (yes thats beyond the scope of this thread too but it remains the ever present elephant in the room)
The Nagus is indeed wise.
There's nothing stopping them. I'd think it's more like high school is 1 tier, college another and nfl is even higher up the tiers. Meaning they're segregated by the game mechanics.
And the mixed tiers can be made by private matches and invites.
T5 was merely used as an example of what overpowered is according to my definition. It should never go against T5 ships unless piloted by one of these people that like to take lesser ships into PvP for a challenge. If it can stand up to a T5 ship, then it would be overpowered compared to T2 ships. Never claimed it was balanced or fair compared to other T2 ships just that it is not overpowered compared to the Nova. 1 console, 1 Lt. Science power, and an escape power makes the ship more powerful than the Nova, but not overpowered according to my definition. If we can't come to terms with what is meant by overpowered, then we can't agree with whether the ship is overpowered or not.
I will agree with your second statement that its power is over that of ships in the same tier when they should be balanced and fair. A nerf to its turn rate or hull should make it more balanced and fair.
So regardless of semantics you basically agree that the ship is not balanced and that Cryptic is, beyond doubt, selling power.
Kind of makes standing against the tides that were saying just that.... sort of pointless.
How do you measure 'stand up to' as it stood my last try at it 1v1 vs an excelsior, I was unable to kill him, but i did last for a while before being destroyed.
'Stock' Nova btw.
I've changed a few powers but haven't had the chance to fight him again yet.
This is without the extra heal I'd probably put in the LT slot.
If I got the Rhode Island, from my limited look on tribble, I'd be able to upgrade the ensign heal to a lt heal and still pick up another power, my choice of an escape power or more console goodness. And I even get back 5 energy from the impulse modifier boost!
I could drop my engine power down 5 points and only drop from +80% bonus defense to +79.9% bonus defense!
And it is at that point where we are just splitting hairs over definitions rather than addressing the actual issue and complaint of those against the RI. In fact, looking back on it I'd say thats all the OP has done, split hairs over the specific words used rather than discussing the actual reason such words, or others like them, are being used.
I think then, that the debate over by what definition should the ship be deemed overpowered had better be dropped.
That's also an issue... Once again, Tribble feedback leads to no changes. I don't even know why the ship was delayed in the first place? I haven't checked the customziation option, as that would require to buy them, have those been fixed? (Something with only one type of Windows available).
*) Which I also kinda find horrible to hope, because it's not as if don't Cryptic to make money. But - that's what vote with your wallet leads to, inevitably.
Overpowered for me means: "Over the power of something else". At least in the context if the "something else" has the same purpose, in this case, be a Science Vessel appropriate for Lieutenant Commanders.
The quality is debatable...
Sorry, couldn't resist.:D
I like it. It went a bit more mainstream but the early seasons are brilliant nerd wonderland.
According to the devs, that's debatable.
I read this and suddenly though.
It requires opposing viewpoints for a debate...
It's probably pretty obvious what I think by now...
The T5 Excelsior is not the same thing. It is a ship which has advantages others do not, but these are well offset and balanced. The same cannot be said of the RI- which is set far above the other ships of its tier- hence the coingage of the concept of Tx.5.
I take your point about the Excelsior though, I had once really hoped that ONLY fluff would EVER find its way into the C Store, and I was unhappy when the Exc was added. At the time though I did not bother to argue the point as I was happy just playing the game- this is a much more naked and worrying form of paying for power though. Anyway- didnt someone once say 'better late than never?'
Yes, I think they still would be relaxed. Maybe some people would complain that it is only available through the C-Store, but not many. What do you think how many of those Excelsiors, Nebulas, MVAEs, ... out there are there because people got them by emblem grind? I'm sure not many. They are not even more powerful, just different and players still buy them.
The vast majority of players is not posting on the forums or even reading them and are not PvPers. They see stuff in the C-Store and if they like it, they buy it. If it is better than the things you can get ingame, even better. There is no need for an even playing field outside of PvP, people pay additional money and expect something more powerful, not just different. That's how real life works, so why not in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all against the road we are starting to go with the Rhode Island and it is foolish to think that this ship is a single incident. But the majority of people simply does not care and/or thinks it's a good thing to get power for additional money. We saw that there is no way to change Cryptics mind if they don't want to listen and the silent majority will always be there and "support" them.
I am not agreeing with any of it. Nor am I arguing against it. It is a fact of the game.
Should a power gamer who pays monthly and plays 10+ hours a day have better gear/ships than a noob who just bought a lifetime sub and everything in the C-Store? Both have financially supported the game. The noob will lack the skills and experience as well as veteran rewards.
I think that the best stuff should be earned in game with sweat and blisters. But it isn't that way in the real world either.
I want STO to live long and prosper. Will pay for power help or hurt? I don't know.
Some players have expressed their concerns and disappointments about the RI and how it's been released.
Feedback received, already. Many, many, many times over.
It's done. There is no longer any point in complaining about it.
Other than continuing to bring up the topic of when it will be released through in-game means in the monthly "Ask Cryptic", enough already.
It's the only new content released lately. So it's really all players have to talk about. Maybe if a new mission or two were released, there would be other topics?
agreed!
keep up work cryptic, i just resubscribed and looking forward to future content
Save your money, as this kind of future content is going to cost you more than just your resub fees.
So then nothing in the game can ever be fixed or rebalanced? Good to know. Might want to keep that in mind the next time Cryptic releases some showstopper bugs into the game or breaks a power on the original FAW revamp scale.
It's not over until it's over, and (a) the problem persists, and (b) there are 15 more of the exact same problem on the way. Then more after that no doubt.
Yeah, so it ain't over.
So if you're tired of it now, you might want to avoid the forums for several months because this particular tune is likely to last a while...
You don't have to buy it you know? I have been playing for 5 weeks and not bought a single ship, the game is perferctly fun for me as is. Is this all about PvP again? If it is, I dont think the C-store ships are ruining the game, I think the PvP whiners are.
As they add another 15 to 16 of these ships, odds are you are going to have buy one or two eventually. But it'll work out by September 22 when they revamp the economy to streamline it with the c-store better.
And no, it's not about PVP. I haven't PVP'd in this game since 2010. PVP has been very very dead in STO for quite a long time. Kudos to the folks that suffer through with the current state of the game's PVP. But it's seriously under-developed and ignored and not worth the hassle for me.
Why would I 'have" to buy 1 or 2 of them? Will they make PvE so hard I cannot complete it unless I buy a C-Store ship? Almost every other MMO is going F2P and subscribers get added bonuses. Right now you have C-Store and credits , but (to me ) it looks like they might go F2P and allow the "16 new ships" for subscribers.