If I had the time, I'd actually go through the thread and use other people's quotes, but I don't, so I'll paraphrase a few:
"I'm sure Starfleet could make a ship that looks just like it and technology shrinks so it will fit."
"It'll be fun for me to use and bring in C-store revenue if it's there."
"Well you don't have to fly it, so just ignore it."
I have no idea what any of these have to do with what I said. Do these points magically make the Millenium Falcon a part of Star Trek and so validate your use of it or the HMS Enterprise?
(Also, were I so inclined, I could add my own: the HMS Enterprize was not a plot device, she was a setting. And, depending on how you want to weigh things, the T5 TOSC never appeared in a feature film and the HMS Enterprize did.)
It was both, I'll grant you. A spurious gratuitous setting for a spurious unfunny plot point (the dunking of Worf for a promotion)
Saying something over and over, does not make it so. The HMS Enterprise is not a Starship, and has no bearing or relation to the IP than what both of us have mentioned.
I never said the TOS Connie appeared in a movie. I will however give it its 3 season feature spot of a tv series.
Going back to your paraphrased quotes, I see no problem really with any of them.
I don't care how canonists want to explain a higher tier Connie since I don't recall tiers in Star Trek outside of this game. I like the idea of a T5 Connie. I don't much care if it bothers you or not.
The second quote is most certainly true outside the questionable idea of the money going back into the game. I'd prefer it to be as part of the subscription because I don't justify my wants to forum posters.
The last is also true. Don't fly it. If I can, I'll likely never meet you in game anyway, and I certainly won't care what you're flying. I don't take any notice of what others are flying right now, so why would I in future?
The simple fact is, I didn't ask for any of the TOS era stuff, but Cryptic are making them anyway. As such, I'd like a Connie to deck out with TOS bridge at the level of my main, upon which I use the uniforms and the other TOS bits
Iam not interested in a compromise with other forum posters that might spare their feelings. This is Star Trek and the idea of a T5 Connie is not outside of the IP.
I promise not to try and force a Connie on you in TOR, or in whatever historical sailing ships game you might play where you prefer the HMS Enterprise.
1) Era Based Server Shards - Operate them like an RP server, and make 4 distinct eras (TOS, TMP-STVI, TNG/DS9/VOY and 25th Century) and offer that as a means of seperation, as well as putting some locks on the server so TOS items can't be used in the TNG and 25th servers, etc.
Almost certainly unsustainable - would split the playerbase, and require the Devs to write content for all four eras when they're currently struggling with one.
2) Server / Client controls to set some default skins for other people's ships and uniforms. Would take tons of time and effort, but then there would be no more issue of "I don't like seeing TOS Connies, much less them blowing up my Sovereign." Plus, for those who hate the plethora of circus looking costumes running around, you could create your perfect little canon world and set up a defualt template to be applied to all characters you see.
Enormous dev investment for not that much practical return (IMO).
The option that costs Cryptic nothing is to maintain the status quo, dump everyone into the same ball pit and leave us to fight/work it out ourselves.
EDIT: As an aside, people who try to equate requests like this to asking for things entirely outside the IP annoy me. Even if it's not your cup of tea, the Original Series (and Voyager, and yes, even Enterprise) is as much a part of Star Trek as the shows you like.
And yet they have been used in defense of everything.I have no idea what any of these have to do with what I said. Do these points magically make the Millenium Falcon a part of Star Trek and so validate your use of it or the HMS Enterprise?
Exactly! They don't validate anything. That's the point.
(And I stopped arguing the Falcon way back when when people required that it be canon from Star Trek by the way.)
It was both, I'll grant you. A spurious gratuitous setting for a spurious unfunny plot point (the dunking of Worf for a promotion)
Saying something over and over, does not make it so. The HMS Enterprise is not a Starship, and has no bearing or relation to the IP than what both of us have mentioned.
I never said the TOS Connie appeared in a movie. I will however give it its 3 season feature spot of a tv series.
Why does it have no bearing or relation when it was IN a Star Trek Movie? Used by the characters. It has more time on screen than most of the ships in the game.
If you want use setting as a factor, the only ship classes that can be in the game are TOSC, Refit Connie, Galaxy, Intrepid, and Sovereign. You can't even have the Defiant because that show was set around the starbase, not the ship.
Since the rest of your post boils down to this simple statement, I will simply return it to you. "I don't much care if it bothers you or not if there is an HMS Enterprize."
And that, again, is the point. That argument can be used to justify literally anything.
i dont believe an actual 200 year old ship should be used or refitted but...
i fail to see why a connie built from scratch (that is a key issue) with 25th century tech can not do the job. the overall design might hamper its top speed, and its size might affect how much of a beating it can take but the defiant has shown size is not an issue.
these things are still gigantic starships. they are still massive vessels that carry lots of people and have lots of internal room to place weapons and shield generators. if you build a connie out of the same material you make a sovereign out of then you will have built a 25th century ship that just looks like a connie. the only difference is its appearance. if size is the issue why not make the tier 5 connie as big as a galaxy class ship. it will still look like the connie but have the extra room to house all the equipment it needs. if cosmetics are the issue why not add a few more skins to mix and match.
look at the miranda class; they added several skins and you can make some very cool, very 25th century looking ships out of it. add two new connie skins and let people make a cool 25th century version out of it.
starfleet has built dozens of different ship designs even in the 24th and 25th century. its shape does not seem to be a big issue, big small, flat, round does not seem to make any difference. look at the nx and the akira. 300 years separate them but they are basically the same design.
most of this is because we have these ships ingrained in our minds. we instantly know a sovereign would crush a connie from watching the shows, but if it was built from the ground up to be a 25th century ship with just the outward appearance of an old ship then i think it can work. im not saying i actually want them to do this but i dont think there is a technical limitation to it from the laws laid down in star trek.
Exactly! They don't validate anything. That's the point.
Incorrect. They validate the addition of a TOS Connie as I said later in my post. What they don't do is help your argument.
Why does it have no bearing or relation when it was IN a Star Trek Movie? Used by the characters. It has more time on screen than most of the ships in the game.
If you want use setting as a factor, the only ship classes that can be in the game are TOSC, Refit Connie, Galaxy, Intrepid, and Sovereign. You can't even have the Defiant because that show was set around the starbase, not the ship.
This is probably where I laugh and walk away from you. If you seriously offer up a single scene with the HMS Enterprise as equal to the dominant features of the running IP itself, you're not worth the bother.
I would have expected anyone asked what they associate with DS9, to say various characters, the station, and the Defiant, and not necessarily in that order.
Could various people say a memorable moment of First contact was the HMS Enterprise scene? sure. Would that therefore make the HMS Enterprise a fundamental part of Star Trek? (even that 1 movie?) No.
Does its inclusion in any way suggest it flies through space at any time during its mention? I leave that up to you since you think it'd make a good Starship. You perhaps need to look up a word: context.
Oh, as a disclaimer to that word, I do not consider the age of the Connie in relation to the game to be a matter of context. As previously stated, it's part of the IP and therefore I accept it at T5. The 2409 response doesn't matter to me.
Since the rest of your post boils down to this simple statement, I will simply return it to you. "I don't much care if it bothers you or not if there is an HMS Enterprize."
And that, again, is the point. That argument can be used to justify literally anything.
Not literally anything, or you'd still be arguing the Millenium Falcon, or perhaps Vorlons or Hammer heads.
As it happens, if you can convince Cryptic that the HMS Enterprise fits this IP as a Starship, go right ahead. It won't bother me; I'll just hopefully fly right by in a TOSC as indifferent to you as I am now.
i dont believe an actual 200 year old ship should be used or refitted but...
i fail to see why a connie built from scratch (that is a key issue) with 25th century tech can not do the job. the overall design might hamper its top speed, and its size might affect how much of a beating it can take but the defiant has shown size is not an issue.
these things are still gigantic starships. they are still massive vessels that carry lots of people and have lots of internal room to place weapons and shield generators. if you build a connie out of the same material you make a sovereign out of then you will have built a 25th century ship that just looks like a connie. the only difference is its appearance. if size is the issue why not make the tier 5 connie as big as a galaxy class ship. it will still look like the connie but have the extra room to house all the equipment it needs. if cosmetics are the issue why not add a few more skins to mix and match.
look at the miranda class; they added several skins and you can make some very cool, very 25th century looking ships out of it. add two new connie skins and let people make a cool 25th century version out of it.
starfleet has built dozens of different ship designs even in the 24th and 25th century. its shape does not seem to be a big issue, big small, flat, round does not seem to make any difference. look at the nx and the akira. 300 years separate them but they are basically the same design.
most of this is because we have these ships ingrained in our minds. we instantly know a sovereign would crush a connie from watching the shows, but if it was built from the ground up to be a 25th century ship with just the outward appearance of an old ship then i think it can work. im not saying i actually want them to do this but i dont think there is a technical limitation to it from the laws laid down in star trek.
Finally someone else that understands a ships hull does not determine its systems abilities. All ships, even real life ones have two ratings. Hull life, system life. Hull life is often dozens if not hundreds of years. The hull is simply a bit of framework to hold it together. Systems life however, well in the real world ships systems are obsolete before they are even out of dry dock, they are consistently updated.
You guys have to have an open mind, for one its a game things are not always what they should be. Second a 100 year old ship hull, could easily be rebuilt with 25 century innards, making it just as powerful and capable as the sovereign, or Prometheus. Sure it may be limited in maneuverability or top speed becasue of its hull shape. But that does NOT at ALL limit its power/weapons/shield abilities.
You guys have to have an open mind, for one its a game things are not always what they should be. Second a 100 year old ship hull, could easily be rebuilt with 25 century innards, making it just as powerful and capable as the sovereign, or Prometheus. Sure it may be limited in maneuverability or top speed becasue of its hull shape. But that does NOT at ALL limit its power/weapons/shield abilities.
This isn't true at all. The connie wouldn't have enough room inside the ship to have a crew if it was as powerful as a sovereign. It's dwarfed by it. It's also far less massive and couldn't take the punishment. Should we have an engineer or physicist go through the equations?
Just one teensy little comment about the "Magnify It" idea...
If you blow up the size of a TOSC to scale as big as a Galaxy or Sovereign, there is the little matter of some scale issues. Mainly the windows.
I'm not exactly sure about the difference in scale, but you could wind up with windows that appear very large compared to a ship designed for the correct scale. In which case, it would make sense that you'd need a different skin where the windows are on the correct scale in comparison to other ships and now it looks less like a TOSC.
Then we have the shuttlecraft bay on the back, which will appear larger than it needs to be in comparison with other ships. Not that the shuttles are at scale anyway, but some people might find it aesthetically unpleasing.
And a discussion of scale wouldn't be complete without mentioning the nacelles. Proportionally, TOS nacelles seem to me to be somewhat larger than the modern ships. Unless the scale were adjusted, I think they would look freakishly large next to other ships. It's not so bad now because the ship isn't as large as a Sovereign.
Personally, I think a super-sized version of the TOSC would be very out of place visually.
This isn't true at all. The connie wouldn't have enough room inside the ship to have a crew if it was as powerful as a sovereign. It's dwarfed by it. It's also far less massive and couldn't take the punishment. Should we have an engineer or physicist go through the equations?
Then how do you explain the Defiant having as much, if not more firepower than a Sovereign, with a mere 50 crew, and being structurally smaller than the Constitution Class and Constitution Class Refit? Based on that assumption you have made, several of the lower tier ships (Nova, Miranda, Centaur, Excalibur, Akira) should all be much more powerful than the Defiant, if your theory were true.
How do you explain the T5 Bird of Prey, with just slightly below the firepower of the regular T5 Escort for the Klingons?
When my ship is destroyed, it respawns, and myself and my crew are rematerialised. This ruins my immersion.
There is an "auction house" in which goods, and even people, can be bought and sold. This ruins my immersion.
I can mix and match parts on ships, creating non-cannon ships. This ruins my immersion.
There is no standard uniform which all players must wear. This ruins my immersion.
People name their ships and themselves silly names. This ruins my immersion.
Hirojen allies with Romulans? This seems highly improbable. This ruins my immersion.
I can place Borg, Tron, and Remen gear and trinkets on my ship, making it look totally different. This ruins my immersion.
I am a Vice Admiral yet have no authority over other players. This ruins my immersion.
When I leave Sol System in my Sovvie, I see low level players flying Mirandas, which is an old ship. This ruins my immersion.
I can warp from K7 to Memory alpha in a matter of minutes! Can the devs please put realistic travel times into the game?!? This ruins my immersion.
Spacedock is supposed to be huge, but I can only walk around one deck. This ruins my immersion.
I can use "Orbital Bombardment" even against enemies inside a ship. This ruins my immersion.
What's with all these crazy fleet names? This ruins my immersion.
I hear sounds in space and my ship's design wouldn't really hold up under the pressure generated by its own gravitational field. This ruins my immersion.
Incorrect. They validate the addition of a TOS Connie as I said later in my post. What they don't do is help your argument.
They do not help any argument. If the deciding factor for anything is whether or not I personally want to use it, then I can argue that for anything, including the Falcon.
This is probably where I laugh and walk away from you. If you seriously offer up a single scene with the HMS Enterprise as equal to the dominant features of the running IP itself, you're not worth the bother.
I would have expected anyone asked what they associate with DS9, to say various characters, the station, and the Defiant, and not necessarily in that order.
Could various people say a memorable moment of First contact was the HMS Enterprise scene? sure. Would that therefore make the HMS Enterprise a fundamental part of Star Trek? (even that 1 movie?) No.
Does its inclusion in any way suggest it flies through space at any time during its mention? I leave that up to you since you think it'd make a good Starship. You perhaps need to look up a word: context.
Oh, as a disclaimer to that word, I do not consider the age of the Connie in relation to the game to be a matter of context. As previously stated, it's part of the IP and therefore I accept it at T5. The 2409 response doesn't matter to me.
Again, there are many ships in the game that are not dominant features of the running IP itself. Some of them don't even technically exist in the IP. I don't have to argue it's on par, only that it has more time than any one of those ships, which it does.
(The HMS was in Generations, by the way. The Phoenix was in First Contact.)
Also, just because "it doesn't matter to you" does not mean the objection is not valid. It doesn't matter to me if the HMS Enterprize isn't a starship, or had less canon time than the TOSC, or didn't have an entire show set around it, or anything else you have said. If "it doesn't matter to me" trumps everything else, then I can have whatever I like, and so can everyone else. That is why it is not a valid argument.
Not literally anything, or you'd still be arguing the Millenium Falcon, or perhaps Vorlons or Hammer heads.
As it happens, if you can convince Cryptic that the HMS Enterprise fits this IP as a Starship, go right ahead. It won't bother me; I'll just hopefully fly right by in a TOSC as indifferent to you as I am now.
Difference with the Falcon is you can also add the caveat that they do not have the license to use the Falcon and so it is a moot point up until they do.
Then how do you explain the Defiant having as much, if not more firepower than a Sovereign, with a mere 50 crew, and being structurally smaller than the Constitution Class and Constitution Class Refit? Based on that assumption you have made, several of the lower tier ships (Nova, Miranda, Centaur, Excalibur, Akira) should all be much more powerful than the Defiant, if your theory were true.
How do you explain the T5 Bird of Prey, with just slightly below the firepower of the regular T5 Escort for the Klingons?
The Defiant is an exception to pretty much everything, and people are still not sure exactly how big it is because the show constantly contradicted itself on that point. But it is explained pretty easily as being so incredibly compact and so specifically designed that it allows it to do what it shouldn't be able to. Even the show acknowledged this by saying the thing nearly ripped itself apart just trying to move because they crammed so much power into such a small space.
The connie wouldn't have enough room inside the ship to have a crew if it was as powerful as a sovereign. It's dwarfed by it. It's also far less massive and couldn't take the punishment. Should we have an engineer or physicist go through the equations?
The 25th century Excelsior is in game at T3, as well. It has 3 weapons fore and 3 aft. The exact same ship is at T5. It has 4 weapons fore and 4 weapons aft. Exactly the same spaceframe, exactly the same size and shape of ship, yet it holds 2 more weapons. How do you explain that?
The Defiant is an exception to pretty much everything, and people are still not sure exactly how big it is because the show constantly contradicted itself on that point. But it is explained pretty easily as being so incredibly compact and so specifically designed that it allows it to do what it shouldn't be able to. Even the show acknowledged this by saying the thing nearly ripped itself apart just trying to move because they crammed so much power into such a small space.
Design flaws, which were corrected and compensated for by Miles O'Brien.
Furthermore, based on where the ship was docked, and comparing to the other 3 ships we saw docked on the upper pylons (Galaxy, Excelsior, Nebula) it is safe enough to say that the Defiant was much smaller than the smallest of those 3 ships, the Excelsior Class. The Excelsior wasn't that much bigger than the Connie Refit, therefore, suffice it to say, you could likely fit the warp core for the Defiant inside the spaceframe of a Constitution Class or Connie Refit, then fit the rest of the technology around it. It wouldn't be pretty, and would take some structural refitting of the interior decks and the general layout of the ship, but it could be done.
I hear sounds in space and my ship's design wouldn't really hold up under the pressure generated by its own gravitational field. This ruins my immersion.
Design flaws, which were corrected and compensated for by Miles O'Brien.
Furthermore, based on where the ship was docked, and comparing to the other 3 ships we saw docked on the upper pylons (Galaxy, Excelsior, Nebula) it is safe enough to say that the Defiant was much smaller than the smallest of those 3 ships, the Excelsior Class. The Excelsior wasn't that much bigger than the Connie Refit, therefore, suffice it to say, you could likely fit the warp core for the Defiant inside the spaceframe of a Constitution Class or Connie Refit, then fit the rest of the technology around it. It wouldn't be pretty, and would take some structural refitting of the interior decks and the general layout of the ship, but it could be done.
Wah-lah, you have a Defiant in a Connie Skin.
Well, not exactly. I would guess that a Connie's very design gives it more weak points. I'm not against a connie escort for t5, but I'm just saying.
Maybe there needs to be an exploration style of ship.
Statement: Some people want Tier 5 Constitution is game.
Counterarguments commence: Constitution is too small, too weak too old.
Counter Counterargument: STO is an MMO and already features various era's ships and equipment.
Heated Counter: "Oh yah, well then I want a boat named Enterprise, or a jet plane or some other non starship vehicle."
Intended undertsanding response: None of those can be used as ships of the line.
Illogical counter response: "Oh Yah well... L2P!"
Please Cryptic hurry up and release our Tier 5 Connie so we can by this.
This is why I really, really want a compromise refit system where you can do slight upgrades to the hull and possible upgrades to the weaponry while fully updating the BO infrastructure. It keeps the Connie from being the "pwnage", but allows for players to fulfill the rolls that they desire to be fulfilled in Star Trek.
(The HMS was in Generations, by the way. The Phoenix was in First Contact.)
I don't think I would argue technologically with a T1 or T5 replica of the Phoenix as a buyable ship in this game. It's as reasonable to expect a homage to that in the 25th century as the NCC-1701, or NX.
OTOH, whether or not anyone PLAYING this game would BUY it is another issue.
This is why I really, really want a compromise refit system where you can do slight upgrades to the hull and possible upgrades to the weaponry while fully updating the BO infrastructure. It keeps the Connie from being the "pwnage", but allows for players to fulfill the rolls that they desire to be fulfilled in Star Trek.
This is EXACTLY how I feel, and support this plan entirely.
The 25th century Excelsior is in game at T3, as well. It has 3 weapons fore and 3 aft. The exact same ship is at T5. It has 4 weapons fore and 4 weapons aft. Exactly the same spaceframe, exactly the same size and shape of ship, yet it holds 2 more weapons. How do you explain that?
But the point is, if the Excelsior can have two more weapons added to it without making the ship any bigger, why can't the Constitution get two more weapons added to it without making the ship any bigger?
Yeah, sure, it's "magic", but apparently only magic if you want to pilot an Excelsior, NOT a Constitution. Or an Akira, or Nova, or Sabre.
Comments
I have no idea what any of these have to do with what I said. Do these points magically make the Millenium Falcon a part of Star Trek and so validate your use of it or the HMS Enterprise?
It was both, I'll grant you. A spurious gratuitous setting for a spurious unfunny plot point (the dunking of Worf for a promotion)
Saying something over and over, does not make it so. The HMS Enterprise is not a Starship, and has no bearing or relation to the IP than what both of us have mentioned.
I never said the TOS Connie appeared in a movie. I will however give it its 3 season feature spot of a tv series.
Going back to your paraphrased quotes, I see no problem really with any of them.
I don't care how canonists want to explain a higher tier Connie since I don't recall tiers in Star Trek outside of this game. I like the idea of a T5 Connie. I don't much care if it bothers you or not.
The second quote is most certainly true outside the questionable idea of the money going back into the game. I'd prefer it to be as part of the subscription because I don't justify my wants to forum posters.
The last is also true. Don't fly it. If I can, I'll likely never meet you in game anyway, and I certainly won't care what you're flying. I don't take any notice of what others are flying right now, so why would I in future?
The simple fact is, I didn't ask for any of the TOS era stuff, but Cryptic are making them anyway. As such, I'd like a Connie to deck out with TOS bridge at the level of my main, upon which I use the uniforms and the other TOS bits
Iam not interested in a compromise with other forum posters that might spare their feelings. This is Star Trek and the idea of a T5 Connie is not outside of the IP.
I promise not to try and force a Connie on you in TOR, or in whatever historical sailing ships game you might play where you prefer the HMS Enterprise.
Enormous dev investment for not that much practical return (IMO).
The option that costs Cryptic nothing is to maintain the status quo, dump everyone into the same ball pit and leave us to fight/work it out ourselves.
EDIT: As an aside, people who try to equate requests like this to asking for things entirely outside the IP annoy me. Even if it's not your cup of tea, the Original Series (and Voyager, and yes, even Enterprise) is as much a part of Star Trek as the shows you like.
Exactly! They don't validate anything. That's the point.
(And I stopped arguing the Falcon way back when when people required that it be canon from Star Trek by the way.)
Why does it have no bearing or relation when it was IN a Star Trek Movie? Used by the characters. It has more time on screen than most of the ships in the game.
If you want use setting as a factor, the only ship classes that can be in the game are TOSC, Refit Connie, Galaxy, Intrepid, and Sovereign. You can't even have the Defiant because that show was set around the starbase, not the ship.
Since the rest of your post boils down to this simple statement, I will simply return it to you. "I don't much care if it bothers you or not if there is an HMS Enterprize."
And that, again, is the point. That argument can be used to justify literally anything.
i fail to see why a connie built from scratch (that is a key issue) with 25th century tech can not do the job. the overall design might hamper its top speed, and its size might affect how much of a beating it can take but the defiant has shown size is not an issue.
these things are still gigantic starships. they are still massive vessels that carry lots of people and have lots of internal room to place weapons and shield generators. if you build a connie out of the same material you make a sovereign out of then you will have built a 25th century ship that just looks like a connie. the only difference is its appearance. if size is the issue why not make the tier 5 connie as big as a galaxy class ship. it will still look like the connie but have the extra room to house all the equipment it needs. if cosmetics are the issue why not add a few more skins to mix and match.
look at the miranda class; they added several skins and you can make some very cool, very 25th century looking ships out of it. add two new connie skins and let people make a cool 25th century version out of it.
starfleet has built dozens of different ship designs even in the 24th and 25th century. its shape does not seem to be a big issue, big small, flat, round does not seem to make any difference. look at the nx and the akira. 300 years separate them but they are basically the same design.
most of this is because we have these ships ingrained in our minds. we instantly know a sovereign would crush a connie from watching the shows, but if it was built from the ground up to be a 25th century ship with just the outward appearance of an old ship then i think it can work. im not saying i actually want them to do this but i dont think there is a technical limitation to it from the laws laid down in star trek.
Incorrect. They validate the addition of a TOS Connie as I said later in my post. What they don't do is help your argument.
This is probably where I laugh and walk away from you. If you seriously offer up a single scene with the HMS Enterprise as equal to the dominant features of the running IP itself, you're not worth the bother.
I would have expected anyone asked what they associate with DS9, to say various characters, the station, and the Defiant, and not necessarily in that order.
Could various people say a memorable moment of First contact was the HMS Enterprise scene? sure. Would that therefore make the HMS Enterprise a fundamental part of Star Trek? (even that 1 movie?) No.
Does its inclusion in any way suggest it flies through space at any time during its mention? I leave that up to you since you think it'd make a good Starship. You perhaps need to look up a word: context.
Oh, as a disclaimer to that word, I do not consider the age of the Connie in relation to the game to be a matter of context. As previously stated, it's part of the IP and therefore I accept it at T5. The 2409 response doesn't matter to me.
Not literally anything, or you'd still be arguing the Millenium Falcon, or perhaps Vorlons or Hammer heads.
As it happens, if you can convince Cryptic that the HMS Enterprise fits this IP as a Starship, go right ahead. It won't bother me; I'll just hopefully fly right by in a TOSC as indifferent to you as I am now.
Finally someone else that understands a ships hull does not determine its systems abilities. All ships, even real life ones have two ratings. Hull life, system life. Hull life is often dozens if not hundreds of years. The hull is simply a bit of framework to hold it together. Systems life however, well in the real world ships systems are obsolete before they are even out of dry dock, they are consistently updated.
You guys have to have an open mind, for one its a game things are not always what they should be. Second a 100 year old ship hull, could easily be rebuilt with 25 century innards, making it just as powerful and capable as the sovereign, or Prometheus. Sure it may be limited in maneuverability or top speed becasue of its hull shape. But that does NOT at ALL limit its power/weapons/shield abilities.
Is it's lack of competitive weapons and equipment slots easy to compensate for?
This isn't true at all. The connie wouldn't have enough room inside the ship to have a crew if it was as powerful as a sovereign. It's dwarfed by it. It's also far less massive and couldn't take the punishment. Should we have an engineer or physicist go through the equations?
If you blow up the size of a TOSC to scale as big as a Galaxy or Sovereign, there is the little matter of some scale issues. Mainly the windows.
I'm not exactly sure about the difference in scale, but you could wind up with windows that appear very large compared to a ship designed for the correct scale. In which case, it would make sense that you'd need a different skin where the windows are on the correct scale in comparison to other ships and now it looks less like a TOSC.
Then we have the shuttlecraft bay on the back, which will appear larger than it needs to be in comparison with other ships. Not that the shuttles are at scale anyway, but some people might find it aesthetically unpleasing.
And a discussion of scale wouldn't be complete without mentioning the nacelles. Proportionally, TOS nacelles seem to me to be somewhat larger than the modern ships. Unless the scale were adjusted, I think they would look freakishly large next to other ships. It's not so bad now because the ship isn't as large as a Sovereign.
Personally, I think a super-sized version of the TOSC would be very out of place visually.
I have a fellow fleet member who did Infected w/ the fleet with no problems in a T2 connie. I'm very tempted to start saying L2P
Then how do you explain the Defiant having as much, if not more firepower than a Sovereign, with a mere 50 crew, and being structurally smaller than the Constitution Class and Constitution Class Refit? Based on that assumption you have made, several of the lower tier ships (Nova, Miranda, Centaur, Excalibur, Akira) should all be much more powerful than the Defiant, if your theory were true.
How do you explain the T5 Bird of Prey, with just slightly below the firepower of the regular T5 Escort for the Klingons?
Pics or it didn't happen.
There is an "auction house" in which goods, and even people, can be bought and sold. This ruins my immersion.
I can mix and match parts on ships, creating non-cannon ships. This ruins my immersion.
There is no standard uniform which all players must wear. This ruins my immersion.
People name their ships and themselves silly names. This ruins my immersion.
Hirojen allies with Romulans? This seems highly improbable. This ruins my immersion.
I can place Borg, Tron, and Remen gear and trinkets on my ship, making it look totally different. This ruins my immersion.
I am a Vice Admiral yet have no authority over other players. This ruins my immersion.
When I leave Sol System in my Sovvie, I see low level players flying Mirandas, which is an old ship. This ruins my immersion.
I can warp from K7 to Memory alpha in a matter of minutes! Can the devs please put realistic travel times into the game?!? This ruins my immersion.
Spacedock is supposed to be huge, but I can only walk around one deck. This ruins my immersion.
I can use "Orbital Bombardment" even against enemies inside a ship. This ruins my immersion.
What's with all these crazy fleet names? This ruins my immersion.
I hear sounds in space and my ship's design wouldn't really hold up under the pressure generated by its own gravitational field. This ruins my immersion.
They do not help any argument. If the deciding factor for anything is whether or not I personally want to use it, then I can argue that for anything, including the Falcon.
Again, there are many ships in the game that are not dominant features of the running IP itself. Some of them don't even technically exist in the IP. I don't have to argue it's on par, only that it has more time than any one of those ships, which it does.
(The HMS was in Generations, by the way. The Phoenix was in First Contact.)
Also, just because "it doesn't matter to you" does not mean the objection is not valid. It doesn't matter to me if the HMS Enterprize isn't a starship, or had less canon time than the TOSC, or didn't have an entire show set around it, or anything else you have said. If "it doesn't matter to me" trumps everything else, then I can have whatever I like, and so can everyone else. That is why it is not a valid argument.
Difference with the Falcon is you can also add the caveat that they do not have the license to use the Falcon and so it is a moot point up until they do.
The Defiant is an exception to pretty much everything, and people are still not sure exactly how big it is because the show constantly contradicted itself on that point. But it is explained pretty easily as being so incredibly compact and so specifically designed that it allows it to do what it shouldn't be able to. Even the show acknowledged this by saying the thing nearly ripped itself apart just trying to move because they crammed so much power into such a small space.
If they did, it would be odd since it isn't in that movie.
The 25th century Excelsior is in game at T3, as well. It has 3 weapons fore and 3 aft. The exact same ship is at T5. It has 4 weapons fore and 4 weapons aft. Exactly the same spaceframe, exactly the same size and shape of ship, yet it holds 2 more weapons. How do you explain that?
Design flaws, which were corrected and compensated for by Miles O'Brien.
Furthermore, based on where the ship was docked, and comparing to the other 3 ships we saw docked on the upper pylons (Galaxy, Excelsior, Nebula) it is safe enough to say that the Defiant was much smaller than the smallest of those 3 ships, the Excelsior Class. The Excelsior wasn't that much bigger than the Connie Refit, therefore, suffice it to say, you could likely fit the warp core for the Defiant inside the spaceframe of a Constitution Class or Connie Refit, then fit the rest of the technology around it. It wouldn't be pretty, and would take some structural refitting of the interior decks and the general layout of the ship, but it could be done.
Wah-lah, you have a Defiant in a Connie Skin.
I love that bit!
Well, not exactly. I would guess that a Connie's very design gives it more weak points. I'm not against a connie escort for t5, but I'm just saying.
Maybe there needs to be an exploration style of ship.
And it goes around and around:
Statement: Some people want Tier 5 Constitution in game.
Counterarguments commence: Constitution is too small, too weak too old.
Counter Counterargument: STO is an MMO and already features various era's ships and equipment.
Heated Counter: "Oh yah, well then I want a boat named Enterprise, or a jet plane or some other non starship vehicle."
Intended undertsanding response: None of those can be used as ships of the line.
Illogical counter response: "Oh Yah well... L2P!"
Please Cryptic hurry up and release our Tier 5 Connie so we can get by this.
Structural Integrity Field would compensate for any of the esthetic shapings of the design.
This is why I really, really want a compromise refit system where you can do slight upgrades to the hull and possible upgrades to the weaponry while fully updating the BO infrastructure. It keeps the Connie from being the "pwnage", but allows for players to fulfill the rolls that they desire to be fulfilled in Star Trek.
I don't think I would argue technologically with a T1 or T5 replica of the Phoenix as a buyable ship in this game. It's as reasonable to expect a homage to that in the 25th century as the NCC-1701, or NX.
OTOH, whether or not anyone PLAYING this game would BUY it is another issue.
This is EXACTLY how I feel, and support this plan entirely.
Seriously, I've been wanting to ask for four pages now, "What if we get a TOS Connie that's upgraded to Tier 4 instead? Will that be okay with you?"
Except I'm sure there's some Tier 4 Captain who will protest that he doesn't want his Galaxy to get pwned by a Connie.
I think that about sums it up.
We might actually have them, i'll check.
I personally don't have the pics. Not a pic happy kinda person.
I've asked my fleet.
But the point is, if the Excelsior can have two more weapons added to it without making the ship any bigger, why can't the Constitution get two more weapons added to it without making the ship any bigger?
Yeah, sure, it's "magic", but apparently only magic if you want to pilot an Excelsior, NOT a Constitution. Or an Akira, or Nova, or Sabre.