Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

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  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    Your BM only has like 100 more HP unbuffed than I do unbuffed. o.o;;

    What I find amusing is self buffed (meaning demon bell and demon magic marrow for him.. sage stone barrier for me) I have ~28% more hp than him (nearly 3.5k difference), ~52% more pdef (6.4k difference), ~42% more mdef (5.4k difference), and roughly double his def level (if he uses omalley blessing, and it is a 46 def level difference). Just reminds me of all of his comments about how an arcane under no circumstances should tank better than a HA.. wonder how he feels knowing that a self buffed AA easily tanks better than his HA char in full buffs b:chuckle
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  • Pytharia - Lost City
    Pytharia - Lost City Posts: 757 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    What I find amusing is self buffed (meaning demon bell and demon magic marrow for him.. sage stone barrier for me) I have ~28% more hp than him (nearly 3.5k difference), ~52% more pdef (6.4k difference), ~42% more mdef (5.4k difference), and roughly double his def level (if he uses omalley blessing, and it is a 46 def level difference). Just reminds me of all of his comments about how an arcane under no circumstances should tank better than a HA.. wonder how he feels knowing that a self buffed AA easily tanks better than his HA char in full buffs b:chuckle

    All I read there was irl money can make a big difference.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    What I find amusing is self buffed (meaning demon bell and demon magic marrow for him.. sage stone barrier for me) I have ~28% more hp than him (nearly 3.5k difference), ~52% more pdef (6.4k difference), ~42% more mdef (5.4k difference), and roughly double his def level (if he uses omalley blessing, and it is a 46 def level difference). Just reminds me of all of his comments about how an arcane under no circumstances should tank better than a HA.. wonder how he feels knowing that a self buffed AA easily tanks better than his HA char in full buffs b:chuckle

    When I said Arcanes shouldn't have more survivability than melee it was heavily implied that I meant when they were equally geared, which you and I are not. However, since you'd like to nitpick I'll specify so you can understand. At the same level of gear Arcanes should not have better survivability than Melee. And here I thought you'd understand Adroit, but I suppose you're more simple-minded than I gave you credit for. Oh well, it's been explained now. Just because something has so much defense doesn't mean it really should, if anything Wizards having more Pdef than BMs would tie into my point rather than prove it wrong.

    In any case, an end game class (Wizard especially) has a lot of defensive power, it's not much to brag about that you have more defensive potential than I do. Considering the large difference in our gear, which you yourself love to go on and on about.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    When I said Arcanes shouldn't have more survivability than melee it was heavily implied that I meant when they were equally geared, which you and I are not. However, since you'd like to nitpick I'll specify so you can understand. At the same level of gear Arcanes should not have better survivability than Melee. And here I thought you'd understand Adroit, but I suppose you're more simple-minded than I gave you credit for. Oh well, it's been explained now. Just because something has so much defense doesn't mean it really should, if anything Wizards having more Pdef than BMs would tie into my point rather than prove it wrong.

    In any case, an end game class (Wizard especially) has a lot of defensive power, it's not much to brag about that you have more defensive potential than I do. Considering the large difference in our gear, which you yourself love to go on and on about.

    I'm perfectly aware of what you meant, but you leave yourself wide open by prefacing a statement with "Under no circumstances" when clearly there are circumstances in which your statement is flawed. You just make it too easy b:cute
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  • dizzyrunks
    dizzyrunks Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    purify OP yes.

    but u know what? other things are too!

    - barbs : the best class atm, tanky and hit like a truck, reminds me of some offtanks in some League game

    - seekers : need to explain?

    - sins : cry about aps, dph sins are nuts too

    as for dreamweaver alone, have hard time stop r9rr casters like fayhumming or thesun?

    wanna try stop the barb bigcojones ans his like what, 50-55k hp? or merangelus archer with like 28k hp?

    dont see much difference. btw archers are op as hell too to carry flag, can land a flag while being stunnable for only like 5 sec total

    plz remove purify, and give us gof plz

    What about the blademastersb:surrender
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dizzyrunks wrote: »
    What about the blademastersb:surrender

    tanky as shet with marrows, tons of control skills and disables.. dragons and BT. BMs are not lacking at all lmao
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  • dizzyrunks
    dizzyrunks Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    tanky as shet with marrows, tons of control skills and disables.. dragons and BT. BMs are not lacking at all lmao

    What about the damage:chuckle
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    I'm perfectly aware of what you meant, but you leave yourself wide open by prefacing a statement with "Under no circumstances" when clearly there are circumstances in which your statement is flawed. You just make it too easy b:cute

    I suppose, should you choose to lower yourself to trying to take advantage of such a thing when it's obvious what I mean given the context of my statement. Oh well, if you have to lower yourself to such petty tactics to claim a "win" then that's your issue. Whatever it takes to stroke that ego, right? b:cute


    EDIT: In reply to your post above dizzyrunks.

    Our marrows leave us open to the opposite side of the combat table. Physical Marrow is almost useless in group PvP, an though Magic Marrow is essential it opens us up to take a large amount of damage from other melee classes. HF and BT both cost large amounts of chi and are easily enough negated. When used at the right time in a 1v1 or group PvP they can be devastating, but as I said, they can be negated easily enough in both situations. Well, negated may not be the right word, but resisted, survived. In any case, point stands.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I suppose, should you choose to lower yourself to trying to take advantage of such a thing when it's obvious what I mean given the context of my statement. Oh well, if you have to lower yourself to such petty tactics to claim a "win" then that's your issue. Whatever it takes to stroke that ego, right? b:cute


    EDIT: In reply to your post above dizzyrunks.

    Our marrows leave us open to the opposite side of the combat table. Physical Marrow is almost useless in group PvP, an though Magic Marrow is essential it opens us up to take a large amount of damage from other melee classes. HF and BT both cost large amounts of chi and are easily enough negated. When used at the right time in a 1v1 or group PvP they can be devastating, but as I said, they can be negated easily enough in both situations. Well, negated may not be the right word, but resisted, survived. In any case, point stands.

    You seriously think that BMs are underpowered? b:laugh
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    You seriously think that BMs are underpowered? b:laugh

    That's an irrelevant question as I didn't state that. I simply listed the issues with the skills you brought up. Since your attitude is "Unless you play it, your opinion is irrelevant" my opinion automatically trumps yours here, does it not? I'm using your own logic.
  • dizzyrunks
    dizzyrunks Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    You seriously think that BMs are underpowered? b:laugh[/QUOTE

    Can a BM kill effectively.. I know they are tanky
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dizzyrunks wrote: »
    Can a BM kill effectively.. I know they are tanky

    Yes. Do note though that they usually will not score that many kills in group pvp. 'Cause they're a support class, you know.
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  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    That's an irrelevant question as I didn't state that. I simply listed the issues with the skills you brought up. Since your attitude is "Unless you play it, your opinion is irrelevant" my opinion automatically trumps yours here, does it not? I'm using your own logic.

    Nope, you were talking about something you had absolutely no experience with (end game pvp.. you have never been on either side of it, and judging by your comments, you have clearly not seen much of it).. I however have gone up against many BMs in 1v1s/nw/world pvp/TW (and watched many BM vs other classes, as well as many videos including bms), so I can comment on how BMs compare with other classes. What I can't do is talk about things I have no experience with.. for example I have never gone up against an equally geared mystic (none on the server, and haven't really seen many videos about well played ones), so you won't see me talking about how they compare with other end game classes. Talk about things you have knowledge about, I thought that was common sense :)

    When I make a statement that "BMs are not lacking at all", and you respond to my post trying to refute what I said.. it is implied that you disagree with my claim. All skills have weaknesses, work-arounds, costs etc etc.. if you didn't disagree with me, why even both posting? lmao
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    Yes. Do note though that they usually will not score that many kills in group pvp. 'Cause they're a support class, you know.

    ^this
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  • dizzyrunks
    dizzyrunks Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    Yes. Do note though that they usually will not score that many kills in group pvp. 'Cause they're a support class, you know.

    Yep i understand they are a support class.. But when it comes to 1v1 their damage can be real sucky if they are not lucky
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dizzyrunks wrote: »
    Yep i understand they are a support class.. But when it comes to 1v1 their damage can be real sucky if they are not lucky

    BM damage is fine.
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  • dizzyrunks
    dizzyrunks Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    BM damage is fine.

    b:laugh
  • Flamespirit - Dreamweaver
    Flamespirit - Dreamweaver Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't think anyone is saying that +6 r93 arcanes are op.

    The ones that everyone seems to be complaining about are the one that are all +12 and josd or garnet and already have the nw upgrades. The point zan fails to get is that other classes are equally op at that stage. -even bms, although I'd agree with him that bms get the short end of the stick in NW type fights. Still no reason to try to nerf casters.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    Nope, you were talking about something you had absolutely no experience with (end game pvp.. you have never been on either side of it, and judging by your comments, you have clearly not seen much of it).. I however have gone up against many BMs in 1v1s/nw/world pvp/TW (and watched many BM vs other classes, as well as many videos including bms), so I can comment on how BMs compare with other classes. What I can't do is talk about things I have no experience with.. for example I have never gone up against an equally geared mystic (none on the server, and haven't really seen many videos about well played ones), so you won't see me talking about how they compare with other end game classes. Talk about things you have knowledge about, I thought that was common sense :)

    When I make a statement that "BMs are not lacking at all", and you respond to my post trying to refute what I said.. it is implied that you disagree with my claim. All skills have weaknesses, work-arounds, costs etc etc.. if you didn't disagree with me, why even both posting? lmao



    Wait, so going up against and watching BMs gives you experience? Huh, interesting. You should realize that concept works on both ends, having fought end game people and watched videos I can very well claim that I have experience as well, though I haven't played at that level. You haven't played a BM at the same level as me for as long as me, as I have not played at end game at the same level as you for as long as you. You mentioned earlier that I had dug myself into a hole, however in this situation you seem to have dug yourself into one due to your poor logic and hypocrisy. "You don't play end game so you can't have a valid opinion on it"..."I watch BMs and fight them so my opinion is valid, though I don't play". Seeing as I've fought and watched videos of end game people, by your own logic my opinions are now valid despite what you stated earlier.

    I do disagree, while marrows are a great asset they also leave us with less defensive potential against one side of the combat table. We will always be vulnerable to something, while Seekers and Barbarians will not. I'm not arguing that BMs aren't good in PvP or group PvP, but I am listing that while being one of our greatest assets marrows also open us up to take serious damage. Especially Physical Marrow.
    Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is saying that +6 r93 arcanes are op.

    The ones that everyone seems to be complaining about are the one that are all +12 and josd or garnet and already have the nw upgrades. The point zan fails to get is that other classes are equally op at that stage. -even bms, although I'd agree with him that bms get the short end of the stick in NW type fights. Still no reason to try to nerf casters.

    This would be relevant, were I discussing that level of gameplay. That isn't the case though.
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    SweetieBot, analyze this thread
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  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Wait, so going up against and watching BMs gives you experience? Huh, interesting. You should realize that concept works on both ends, having fought end game people and watched videos I can very well claim that I have experience as well, though I haven't played at that level. You haven't played a BM at the same level as me for as long as me, as I have not played at end game at the same level as you for as long as you. You mentioned earlier that I had dug myself into a hole, however in this situation you seem to have dug yourself into one due to your poor logic and hypocrisy. "You don't play end game so you can't have a valid opinion on it"..."I watch BMs and fight them so my opinion is valid, though I don't play". Seeing as I've fought and watched videos of end game people, by your own logic my opinions are now valid despite what you stated earlier.

    I do disagree, while marrows are a great asset they also leave us with less defensive potential against one side of the combat table. We will always be vulnerable to something, while Seekers and Barbarians will not. I'm not arguing that BMs aren't good in PvP or group PvP, but I am listing that while being one of our greatest assets marrows also open us up to take serious damage. Especially Physical Marrow.



    This would be relevant, were I discussing that level of gameplay. That isn't the case though.

    You have at best an extremely poor understanding of what end game pvp is like, I don't believe that you've watched many end game pvp videos (you wouldn't say so much obviously stupid stuff if you had any knowledge on the matter). Besides, your skewed pvp ideas can be attributed to more than just poor gear b:cute

    My point stands, when I say that you are incorrect about how something will affect end game PvP.. my opinion trumps yours due to me having more experience/knowledge on the subject.
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  • SweetieBot - Lothranis
    SweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    SweetieBot, analyze this thread
    SweetieBot has finished reading the thread: Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!!

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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    You have at best an extremely poor understanding of what end game pvp is like, I don't believe that you've watched many end game pvp videos (you wouldn't say so much obviously stupid stuff if you had any knowledge on the matter). Besides, your skewed pvp ideas can be attributed to more than just poor gear b:cute

    My point stands, when I say that you are incorrect about how something will affect end game PvP.. my opinion trumps yours due to me having more experience/knowledge on the subject.

    Instead of giving a proper counter argument you instead show nothing but sheer arrogance. Your logic was flawed, and still is. All you've done here is throw around poor disguised insults which does nothing to help your argument.

    Your point does not stand, until you can actually show that I'm wrong. Your own statements show that your opinion does not trump mine merely because you take part in end game PvP while I do not, as my statements are not without logic and basic knowledge. I may not take part in it myself, but my opinions are still valuable to this discussion. Seeing as the only argument you can make against me is that my opinions aren't valid rather than stating why they aren't it's starting to seem as if you have no actual rebuttal and instead rely on the convenient accusation that I cannot comprehend end game PvP.

    I suppose arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand though, so I'm not surprised.
  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Can i have some popcorn too? :O
    Here you go.

    After reading through the 85+ page argument though, I do agree with those who want to either remove/weaken the speed effect or cap the max movement speed of a flag carrier.
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  • Chanzeer - Lost City
    Chanzeer - Lost City Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    remove the speed effect but keep the purifty
  • Crazybladema - Harshlands
    Crazybladema - Harshlands Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In all honesty I have a lot of pvp experience ingame. I can say purify is pretty overpowered as it is now. The reason for that is very, very simple. That weapon proc purify's "negative effects" and gives the user 6 seconds of holy-path with anti stun. What makes it even more overpowered is the fact that there is no "solid & reliable" counter to it.

    On top of this, people with purify still have access to genie, skills that help them kite and appoc. Which adds even more to the overpowered nature of this proc. I believe it needs to be nerfed. But in such a way that makes it effective against APS and not people who use skills to kill (DPH).

    A simple solution to this problem would be take the holy path out of the proc and the proc should only be activated by "auto-attacks". This would allow people who use this proc a decent boost against aps *cough sins cough* and more. While not messing up group pvp (TW & NW). Even further, this would allow people to counter purify by simply using skills and refraining from auto-attacking.

    But this is pwi... I doubt they would balance this out. f:meh

    In any case, for the most part I quit. Because that proc has messed up alot of high end pvp elements for my class.
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »
    Because that proc has messed up alot of high end pvp elements for my class, against people who use it.

    You're a BM. If there is any class best suited to fighting a puri proc caster, it's a BM. o.o;;
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    You're a BM. If there is any class best suited to fighting a puri proc caster, it's a BM. o.o;;

    I imagine it'd be another Purify Spell Caster b:avoid


    Considering a BM's playstyle is locking the opponent down with CC to land kills, Purify Spell isn't an ideal weapon proc to face. We can take it down 1v1 and all, but I think something that doesn't rely on chaining CC would be better suited. A Cleric would be pretty good, given that it doesn't need to hit the target while it's setting up combos b:avoid

    We should all debate what the best class to fight a Purify Spell caster is. That'll be the new topic of this thread since the old debate is going nowhere! YEAH!
  • Crazybladema - Harshlands
    Crazybladema - Harshlands Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    You're a BM. If there is any class best suited to fighting a puri proc caster, it's a BM. o.o;;

    This is true. We do got blade tornado and that does ignore defense levels and does not activate the proc. However, that skill has a 3 minute cool down and to make it effective you need to use a charger orb. Which pretty much takes away my appoc and 1 spark right off the bat.

    BMs also have blade hurl that disarms a purify user for 6 seconds. But this can set off the proc and only gives a small window. Which is 3 seconds for me and 6 seconds if its used for somebody else to take the caster down. This has a 40 second cooldown.

    Those two methods are not really "solid" and cannot always be relied on.

    For the most part bms are a support class. In pvp bms rely on stunlocking, cc, dg and damage spikes to kill and provide group support. At least for an axe bm like me. Because stunlocking and amping cost alot of chii and purify can negate that. It makes it very hard to kill a purify user. Especially if the user is skilled and has good defense. A BM will simply be at a disadvantage.
  • KingCrash - Dreamweaver
    KingCrash - Dreamweaver Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    We should all debate what the best class to fight a Purify Spell caster is. That'll be the new topic of this thread since the old debate is going nowhere! YEAH!

    I can't say I have ever killed a Purify caster before but I do like to follow them around with Edged Blur on and watch their hp go up and down since they all seemed to be charmed and the skill seems to pretty much bypass all defenses.

    Edged Blur doesn't seem to cause their spell to proc so I just troll their charms instead.

    b:thanks
  • XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary
    XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary Posts: 1,173 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Saying a BM will have trouble taking out a caster is kind of moot. BMs, as stated, are primarily a support class (AOE stun, AOE amp x2, AOE damage reduction, though these cost chi) while casters, especially wizards, psys, and mystics, are very proficient as magic dd with or without purify proc.

    BMs, essentially, are not SUPPOSED to be able to kill as effectively in a solo capacity as a caster (though it is possible, as demonstrated -here-)
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