Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!
Comments
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XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »Saying a BM will have trouble taking out a caster is kind of moot. BMs, as stated, are primarily a support class (AOE stun, AOE amp x2, AOE damage reduction, though these cost chi) while casters, especially wizards, psys, and mystics, are very proficient as magic dd with or without purify proc.
BMs, essentially, are not SUPPOSED to be able to kill as effectively in a solo capacity as a caster (though it is possible, as demonstrated -here-)
*whistles*
b:avoid all R9r3+10 casters wunshotz me
iz no ken do0 -
THAT'S A STUPID IDEA
I mean, really??? Not even 1/3 of casters are OP enough to win 20v1 with that weapon, the cases you see are the minority... I have only the R9rr weapon, not the full R9 set, I'm not rich, not fully refined, I take very long to farm stuff cuz I can't play that long to farm stuff quickly, so that weapon actually saves me and brings SOME fun to my life. I struggled to get only THIS weapon and I can say the purify proc is the main reason I got it.
And honestly, the proc barely helps me in pk, on 1v1-5 or even group v group, I don't even count on it when I'm killing people in any kind of pvp event and I actually forget about it since it almost never happens. The weapon only really works when I get to carry the flag in NW (yayyy, let me feel like a tanker at least for once), and in instances like PV, warsong and lunar...
The thing that "the game must be skill based and not gear based" is just ridiculous, if they're gonna fix it for arcanes, they're gonna have to fix it for aps classes too, because we know there are A LOT of unskilled aps players out there. But not necessarily people are going to learn to play their toons!!! It won't change the amount of FC noobs. It seems that people are just afraid of skilled players with good gear.. but so what??? I am afraid of sins with R9rr weapon!! But I don't care, I'm still trying to kill them (and getting killed lol).
There will always be skilled players with good gear, unskilled players with good gear, skilled players with bad gear and unskilled players with bad gear... what would actually balance the game is making it impossible to get good gear if not by PLAYING, QUESTING and FARMING, but we know that's never gonna happen :P0 -
XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »Saying a BM will have trouble taking out a caster is kind of moot. BMs, as stated, are primarily a support class (AOE stun, AOE amp x2, AOE damage reduction, though these cost chi) while casters, especially wizards, psys, and mystics, are very proficient as magic dd with or without purify proc.
BMs, essentially, are not SUPPOSED to be able to kill as effectively in a solo capacity as a caster (though it is possible, as demonstrated -here-)
This is for the most part I agree.
That does not change the fact that purify is a bit op. On top of this that bm is r999 and top geared. I have killed r999 +10 casters with a +6 r9 axe and have screenshots of that.
In 1v1 like this purify is not overwhelmingly op. But in a group setting where there are lesser geared people attacking a r999 caster (r8, nirvy, ect). It becomes a problem.
Which is why it needs to be nerfed a tad.0 -
Then your inability to kill them isn't necessarily based on purify spell but the general OPness of r9r3. If I can 1 shot you with a pyrogram, it isn't hugely important whether I have purify spell or not, since unless I have 5 or 6 people on me it probably won't proc when I need it to.
For someone like Adroit, you'd need more people to do significant damage due to the higher hp and defense levels, and for someone significantly squishier you can take them out even with PS.
PS is a nice bonus, but saying that it is the difference between you having a chance against someone who 1 shots you and has more HP than you and not having a chance is a little excessive. I think genies and apoth already handled that.xSonOfCircex-105/103/102 Sage Wiz
DrakeEmpress-101/102/103 Sage Cleric
Gaygasm-101/101/101 Sage Stormbringer
Because I can't stand playing melee classes0 -
diclaimer: i dun have a morai barby yet but what if purify spell is tweaked so that "small amounts of damage will not trigger this effect" like how Blood Rush is described?0
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XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »Then your inability to kill them isn't necessarily based on purify spell but the general OPness of r9r3. If I can 1 shot you with a pyrogram, it isn't hugely important whether I have purify spell or not, since unless I have 5 or 6 people on me it probably won't proc when I need it to.
For someone like Adroit, you'd need more people to do significant damage due to the higher hp and defense levels, and for someone significantly squishier you can take them out even with PS.
PS is a nice bonus, but saying that it is the difference between you having a chance against someone who 1 shots you and has more HP than you and not having a chance is a little excessive. I think genies and apoth already handled that.
Again for the most part I agree. However....
The main reason why I think purify is op is because of its effect on group pvp. Like your 5 - 6 reference.
A group of (r8, nirvy, g16 nirvy geared people) who are very well skilled and coordinated would be able to take out a r999 caster (with great refines and sharding) if purify wasn't a problem.
But if the group doesn't have top notch gear.The effort would just cause purify to just activate more. Making the effort worthless and a caster just holy pathing around killing them. Making the whole effort wasted.
But if the caster didn't have purify. The group would be able to lock down the caster and kill it as a team.
This is what I'm trying to get at.0 -
Purify is op. Nerf it. Casters should
Never tank better than a barb under any circumstances.0 -
Purify is op. Nerf it. Casters should
Never tank better than a barb under any circumstances.
Kiting =/= tanking.
We will never be able to tank as well as a barb can.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I
Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
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Start removing skills and procs after players have CSed and farmed for them = Best way to off those players.
I probably wouldn't be completely against a slight chance percentage decrease on purify, but changing it up too much would be jipping our lovely casters. Every class has something going for them, but, it seems like most arcanes just get MEGA AWESOME SQUISHYNESS.
b:dirty #SinBait. b:dirty
That being said from a sin perspective, QQ. However, not all mages will go R9R3, just pick on the ones that don't? Or stand stealthed in west whilst raging at fellow sins your level, meanwhile never accomplishing anything until someone higher up the food chain waddles along and eats you both. Good Game.
From my own perspective, keep it. I want it too. Kaythanksbai. b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
This should really go back on topic.
Can anyone give a good reason why purify should stay the way it is?0 -
Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »This should really go back on topic.
Can anyone give a good reason why purify should stay the way it is?
Because all the people who complain about it want to "balance" it so people with lower quality gear can compete. This is imposible. If we compare someone who has just nv-3 with low refines vs an almost maxed out r9-3, of course there will be disbalance, and that's how it's supposed to be.
Balance can only be done when everyone has same gears, and when everyone has same gear purify doesn't make any caster unstoppable.0 -
Azura - Lost City wrote: »Because all the people who complain about it want to "balance" it so people with lower quality gear can compete. This is imposible. If we compare someone who has just nv-3 with low refines vs an almost maxed out r9-3, of course there will be disbalance, and that's how it's supposed to be.
Balance can only be done when everyone has same gears, and when everyone has same gear purify doesn't make any caster unstoppable.
I agree with the fact that when similarly geared people face off. Purify isn't op to the point where it is overwhelming. But it can and does tip the battle in the favor of the caster at times.
However, because everyone cant afford to get the best gear. Many people choose to group pvp instead of taking it solo. Especially on better geared opponents.
This is an aspect that actually many people enjoy. Especially in the pvp worlds. Should lower geared people really be discouraged from working as a team? Should they lose just because they cant lock down a caster because of purify proc? (talking about a group of 4-5 people)
That would discourage a great deal of people who cant afford r999 or good refines. That is that good amount of the player base.0 -
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Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »This should really go back on topic.
Can anyone give a good reason why purify should stay the way it is?
Because when I first started and got to 100 certain caster classes were not wanted for most things in game as we were too squishy and our damage output was too low compared to 5dps classes, now we have something worthwhile to aim at.
The truth be known, ultimately this is a game and like all games you do not win every battle, and like all army groups if a squad of infantry cannot take down a tank you need organize help from heavy members of your army, if you cannot do this its not the fault of your enemy, but your own armies fault for a lack of organisation and understanding of tactics.
This may sound harsh but most people find it easier to blame others for their weakness and lack of skills rather than admit they themselves may have the problem.There are old Warriors, and bold Warriors,
but there are very few old bold Warriors. b:chuckle0 -
Selak - Dreamweaver wrote: »This may sound harsh but most people find it easier to blame others for their weakness and lack of skills rather than admit they themselves may have the problem.
Sad truth is skill has nothing to do with it anymore.0 -
Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »I agree with the fact that when similarly geared people face off. Purify isn't op to the point where it is overwhelming. But it can and does tip the battle in the favor of the caster at times.
However, because everyone cant afford to get the best gear. Many people choose to group pvp instead of taking it solo. Especially on better geared opponents.
This is an aspect that actually many people enjoy. Especially in the pvp worlds. Should lower geared people really be discouraged from working as a team? Should they lose just because they cant lock down a caster because of purify proc? (talking about a group of 4-5 people)
That would discourage a great deal of people who cant afford r999 or good refines. That is that good amount of the player base.
R9rr is easy to get, takes time but is all farmable. People just dont want to earn anything they want it handed to them on a plate.
Its R9 thats tough for most due to the cost. Seems to me that some people here QQ'in are just mad cuz they cant compete with those with top lv gear. For whatever reason.
So what shud we do to fix this so called broken game? Take away GoF and puri proc and zerk crit? To balance the game?
Make the game pay to play? To balance the playing field for everyone?
Discuss0 -
The biggest arguement against this proc is being made by melee who are crying because they cant kill a handful of players in end game gear . Grow up . You clame its about balance " for the lower level , the less geared players ". Who also haven't a chance against god of frenzy , but you dont with to give that up . I bet you dont complain when these uber geared players are on your side in NW . So stop using that , because you and everyone here know your reason . Many have paid real money for that gear and they will feel cheated if you suceed in nerfing their gear . Many will leave the game , if that is what you want .. good luck defending that fire or metal pavallion .0
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AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver wrote: »So what shud we do to fix this so called broken game? Take away GoF and puri proc and zerk crit? To balance the game?
GoF is more to balance for what caster already have, a way higher base attack than any melee attack.
If you disregard APS style attacking and consider BM's / Sins / Barbs skill spamming only as well, their damage would never ever be anywhere near equal that of a caster without SS/GoFmarvinhuddleston wrote: »Many have paid real money for that gear and they will feel cheated if you suceed in nerfing their gear . Many will leave the game , if that is what you want .. good luck defending that fire or metal pavallion .
If you even think you need R9rr or purify gear to defend a fire/metal pavilion, lol... i'm not even going to get into that. It's not only casters that can defend those 2 pavilions.
Your argument about survivability is also junk, because read what i stated above. Their survivability against a decent caster is also ****. GoF has nothing to do with that either.
You all seem to be forgetting what this discussion was about in the first place.
Purify spell is heavily OP when it comes to flag carrying in NW when done by a full end-game gear caster with +10-12 and heavy sharded.
As much as yes someone in end-gear will have the upperhand, it's also complete utter bullsh*t they are able to survive against say 10 to 20 G15 nirvana people jumping on top of them.
Which is unlikely because I always seem to end up in the nation that has a gazillion TT80-90 users, which is fine because i'm all for giving everyone a fair chance on reaching their goals.
Problem with the community lies within their greed.
People b*tch and moan for wanting a challenge in PvP/PvE but at the same time they don't allow anyone else to ever get any gear or upgrade their gear at a decent pace to compete against them and then they QQ some more about nobody to fight.
It's the cycle of endless PWI QQ where people want something but don't allow themselves nor others to have any of it.0 -
Um usually i don't talk in forums so...yea....but hey guys this is just another challange to figure out how to beat.....ty GM for giving me something to work on.0
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_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »GoF is more to balance for what caster already have, a way higher base attack than any melee attack.
If you disregard APS style attacking and consider BM's / Sins / Barbs skill spamming only as well, their damage would never ever be anywhere near equal that of a caster without SS/GoF
Ok thats fine. So just for arguments sake, im a R9rr wizzy. +12 etc. And i must have my puri proc removed to balance the game. Because me dropping a mountain on you head does more damage that your lil daggers?
If im not mistaken puri proc was given to casters because other classses had their end game perks on their gear?0 -
AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ok thats fine. So just for arguments sake, im a R9rr wizzy. +12 etc. And i must have my puri proc removed to balance the game. Because me dropping a mountain on you head does more damage that your lil daggers?
If im not mistaken puri proc was given to casters because other classses had their end game perks on their gear?
The GoF proc actually balances out damage, having more HP, more def, more anything besides refine on weapon doesn't matter at all for this proc (and saying "your lil daggers" is pointless as well, daggers aren't the only weapon that have it). In fact GoF actually hurts when having HP above a certain number because BP won't make up for it anymore.
Purify proc doesn't do what the name implies, like I stated earlier if it's just a purify, and heck IF it was just purify that triggers which dispells negative effects, i'd even say give it a higher proc rate which would give you a chance to get away, do something or w/e when it triggered.
What purify spell does is dispell all negative effects, give you immunity to movement debuffs AND lets you run at max speed.
The 2 procs arent comparable simply because GoF is there to balance out the damage, I feel that purify proc is there to balance out the lack of antistun, etc, etc. which is fine imo.
But I also feel that it's unnecessary to have all negative statuses be dispelled (which purify would imply it would do) AND give you immunity to movement debuffs AND letting you run at max speed.0 -
_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »The GoF proc actually balances out damage, having more HP, more def, more anything besides refine on weapon doesn't matter at all for this proc (and saying "your lil daggers" is pointless as well, daggers aren't the only weapon that have it). In fact GoF actually hurts when having HP above a certain number because BP won't make up for it anymore.
Purify proc doesn't do what the name implies, like I stated earlier if it's just a purify, and heck IF it was just purify that triggers which dispells negative effects, i'd even say give it a higher proc rate which would give you a chance to get away, do something or w/e when it triggered.
What purify spell does is dispell all negative effects, give you immunity to movement debuffs AND lets you run at max speed.
The 2 procs arent comparable simply because GoF is there to balance out the damage, I feel that purify proc is there to balance out the lack of antistun, etc, etc. which is fine imo.
But I also feel that it's unnecessary to have all negative statuses be dispelled (which purify would imply it would do) AND give you immunity to movement debuffs AND letting you run at max speed.
So whats the viable solution to the issue? Change the defination of puri proc? And what it does? People have paid money to get it and now you want it taken away?. Good luck with that.
Casters are the slowest classes in the game. Other than apo and genie skills we have no method of moving at pace to evade attacks or start attacks other classes do. So when either apo or genie is used and on CD. And we no longer have puri proc as it is. Low lv geared noobs that have paid no rl money into the game. Can kill said caster, that has paid $0000's... really?
Yeah lets do that. Just to stop the QQ'in...
As you mentioned earlier the you feel the game is no longer skill based. So how about this, NW is the flagship event now in game. And is indeed a farming instance that has a pvp element. So.. just for NW all R9rr perks are disabled. All R8r perks disabled. Now what?0 -
Unless you wish to lose players , you can not nerf or remove the purify proc without doing the same to the others .. I dont care if you argue until you look like a smurf , that fact does not or will not go away . Your statement about fire and metal pavs show you're lack of understanding a balanced squad , with tells me that you are not a team player ... good luck with that .. As far as one player taking out 10 - 20 g15 players . I doubt those 10 - 20 was working together at any point .0
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marvinhuddleston wrote: »Unless you wish to lose players , you can not nerf or remove the purify proc without doing the same to the others .. I dont care if you argue until you look like a smurf , that fact does not or will not go away . Your statement about fire and metal pavs show you're lack of understanding a balanced squad , with tells me that you are not a team player ... good luck with that .. As far as one player taking out 10 - 20 g15 players . I doubt those 10 - 20 was working together at any point .
I would just like to say i know DB and he's very much a team player.0 -
AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver wrote: »So whats the viable solution to the issue? Change the defination of puri proc? And what it does? People have paid money to get it and now you want it taken away?. Good luck with that.
Casters are the slowest classes in the game. Other than apo and genie skills we have no method of moving at pace to evade attacks or start attacks other classes do. So when either apo or genie is used and on CD. And we no longer have puri proc as it is. Low lv geared noobs that have paid no rl money into the game. Can kill said caster, that has paid $0000's... really?
Yeah lets do that. Just to stop the QQ'in...
As you mentioned earlier the you feel the game is no longer skill based. So how about this, NW is the flagship event now in game. And is indeed a farming instance that has a pvp element. So.. just for NW all R9rr perks are disabled. All R8r perks disabled. Now what?
Disabling proc's doesn't solve anything captain obvious you can't compare a damage increase proc to something that that does 3 things at once.
Dumping real money in this game is a choice, without it yes the game wouldn't be in here anymore but that's the risk people take.
For all we know people dumped money in the game back when APS was a big thing, people were complaining about that as well and it got a "nerf" if it's noticable or not I have no idea since I haven't been 4 or 5 aps in ages.
Like I stated before it's an endless cycle of QQ and where casters back then were complaining continuesly for a nerf on APS, I guess some people feel the need to return the favour and complain about something that now makes the casters OP.
The proc itself is broken, in (a lot?) of people's eyes, like stated before, If it just purify's you should have enough time to move away, and as I said, heck even increase the rate in which it purifies, but it doesn't need to do all 3 things it does now, it's broken as hell. Cooldowns are there so you can't spam things.
Apart from that, melee classes can barely outrun ranged attacks as well, and we need to get close to be able to attack.
Skilled casters already knew how to deal with this without the purify proc.
It tells me more that you have a lack of knowing the capabilities of each class and what they can be used for.marvinhuddleston wrote: »Unless you wish to lose players , you can not nerf or remove the purify proc without doing the same to the others .. I dont care if you argue until you look like a smurf , that fact does not or will not go away . Your statement about fire and metal pavs show you're lack of understanding a balanced squad , with tells me that you are not a team player ... good luck with that .. As far as one player taking out 10 - 20 g15 players . I doubt those 10 - 20 was working together at any point .0 -
imho, it is not a question of whether purify = gof or any other proc.
it's a question of whether the proc is groundbreaking.
do casters with purify get 10x tokens than similarly geared melees? no.
for me, that puts purify waay bellow the previous imbalance due to aps in terms of importance in money making.
next is the question of balance in the actual battle in regards of fun/skill. is it fun/requires skill to get ganked? no. is it fun/requires skill to get stunned and sit there while getting apsed? no.
finally, we have the problem with the flag. for that, I think that they should fix the bug that allows speedups to ignore the debuff.
oh, and I'd like to separate purify classes: wizzies already have teles while psys don't.you only purge once #yopo0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »imho, it is not a question of whether purify = gof or any other proc.
it's a question of whether the proc is groundbreaking.
do casters with purify get 10x tokens than similarly geared melees? no.
for me, that puts purify waay bellow the previous imbalance due to aps in terms of importance in money making.
next is the question of balance in the actual battle in regards of fun/skill. is it fun/requires skill to get ganked? no. is it fun/requires skill to get stunned and sit there while getting apsed? no.
finally, we have the problem with the flag. for that, I think that they should fix the bug that allows speedups to ignore the debuff.
oh, and I'd like to separate purify classes: wizzies already have teles while psys don't.
You make a lot of valid points on which i agree.
I think the place the flag is the wrong type of battle format to have for NW, maybe king of the castle would be preferable?
Your correct that wizzards have Distance Shrink to help evade/start attacks. But then in most cases wizzards dont have a shed load of defence lvs. Or buffs and control skills that Psychic's have, to hold opponents down. They can just stand and deliver pain in bucket loads, unless fighting toons equal geared. In which case they too should have puri as it is.0 -
King of the hill/castle would be way more suited for NW.AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver wrote: »You make a lot of valid points on which i agree.
I think the place the flag is the wrong type of battle format to have for NW, maybe king of the castle would be preferable?
I'm kinda hoping they will bring that here since they were working on that in china with the new version 2.0 thingy stuff?
Would be cool if we got that. Even though in the end then we'll get another QQ storm because people will go in squads which means all R9rr will be in the same squad and chances are they'll go against lesser geared people.
Like I said before; endless chain of QQ b:shutup
Maybe they should limit squads as well so you can't have squads with 10 OP people dominating every battle?0 -
This last NW I started with full buffs ( base included ) in full g16 , an O'malleys and white voodoo ... 103 defense levels .. my weapon is g16 as well so no purify for me . My first death was at the hands of a rank 9 3rd cast sin who one shotted me with god of frenzy .. 1 hit ..... Is that fair ? I imagine you do . Many dont .... Maybe to balance gof out it should be nerfed to not work within 5 seconds of comming out of stealth .0
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