Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

Descendus - Lost City wrote: »

Seriously? Are you kidding me? Discuss for a longer period of time? More like cashing in as much as you can before the community chomps on your nuts long enough to get it changed. I know you're just the messenger Val, but honestly? You've seen how the people reacted to the idea of possibly restricting FC, What more is there to possibly discuss about? b:scorn

First of all, the 1200 people who currently voted are not representative of all of Perfect World. That's just absurd to make a change off such a small pool. People should actually think out the the effects thoroughly instead of acting quickly.. that leads to more ruin and chaos. Just because a majority of the people think a certain way doesn't mean they are right and should automatically get their way. Human judgement is obscured at times, and I believe this is the case here.

Belated post is belated!

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Frost abuse, if this is the term you want use and limit it on frost is interesting. Fact is PV done well lands xp close enough to not make difference, how are these instances different?And its crucial where you draw line as its your opinion you deliver.

You answered your own question later on in your post, so let's pull that quote up here:

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Only difference is that FC can be entered with players outside the level range. Oh and PV can only be entered once a day during 15min time period. FC was scaled for levels 75-90 or so. Only reason 100+ toons use it for leveling is because there really isnt any half decent xp instance for 100+. Even PV is only good if you solo it and that limits it to players with high tier gear.

So what's your point here, again? That we need a leveling method for 100+? I think you'd be only the millionth person to suggest that. :P

Regarding entering Frost outside its level range... well yes, welcome to the point. That along with its ability to be done as many times as your hypers allow is what gives Frost its ability to be abused as such.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

As for goons, there was 2 ways to not mess up the balance. Either leave it as it was as it took months for PWE to fix the issue. Other option would of been giving "legit" way towards 105. I myself would of bought boutique item, as long as it would of been reasonably priced, to get back on same line with gooners. Depending how irl affects and how much reasons I have to level, I may end up pushing 105 "legit", would be the only on Archosaur if I did. I can say for a fact every single current 105 on server gooned there, period. Though I know "legit" R999s spamming PV and good chance they hit 105 before I can do it.

The thing is, there is no reasonable way to catch up with gooners. You can still buy MoG out of boutique thus making it another strawman. Well I suppose I shouldnt of mentioned the R999s who can solo PV 4-6 times with the 15min token thingy and do it twice a day if they are in shroud. Granted it needs openers but those arent too hard to find as long as PV isnt appealing to masses.

Dude, I'm sure there's a million ways to allow people to get to 105 easier than is possible today. The fact that wanmei never followed through on closing the gap between the abusers and non-abusers of the goon glitch doesn't change the fact that the goon glitch needed to be fixed. I'm sorry, but why are we even talking about R9S3s? This is a thread about Frost powerleveling. Let's stay on topic if we can help it.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I wrote my opinion regarding this on page 35. Quoting relevant part would take too much space.

I would think that instance, which is squad based, teaches more than solo questing/grinding. Just sitting there doing nothing when others kill mobs and tab killing heads? Yes, that would likely have impact but most players already have learned what they will before starting FC. The 75-101 feels like a point which just have to be passed in order to get to endgame.

I dont understand how its cheating to use options devs have clearly intended. Hypers were clearly intended and so was FC as xp instance, yet combining these two = cheating? I cant understand what is so terrible in it. But nice going with comparing intended feature with obvious bug that was abused to gain absurd amounts of xp.

C'mon now, you're a smart boy... you should know that our devs have a terrible habit of developing new things without respect or adherence to what came before it (see also: packs and nirvana enabling widespread use of aps). That being said, assuming that the devs intended Frost powerleveling just because both pieces of it happen to exist is absurd.

Again I think you prove my point here by saying that tab killing heads would be bad. I know I'm not the one who sells BRs here, but isn't that most of what people do in powerleveling? Especially in early levels, I mean... the process is basically stand back while the seller solo's the boss and the mob pull, then help tabkill the heads. Maybe they could do some minimal damage on the mob pull or put up BB if they're a 59+ cleric, but that's hardly a substitute for actual squad experience.

The non-powerleveling game includes all kinds of ways to level, and by 60+ you're starting to get squads for things. BH is a wonderful way to get a feel for squad mechanics. BH29 and 39 aren't usually done without "help," regrettably, but 51 and 59 I see routinely done by squads. Then once you get to BH69, Frost is available as well to further refine your skills at an appropriate level to actually get some use out of them there.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I bought WoW when it was on expansion right before Mist of Pandoria that came out around the time Diablo3 did. Leveling trough questing is quite easy in WoW and by skipping content I mean its plain impossible to do all content efficiently as there is 2 zones per level tier with 1 being enough to level trough the tier. Nor did I waste my time in gearing up with outdated gear as every expansion adds new gear, which is along lines of R9 vs R8 better than the old content gear. So I rushed trough older content, which had no rewards for me to content that wasnt outdated.

As for being lazy? I am simply not interested in going trough the same content, which isnt endgame. If I have option to skip it quickly and not spend time with it, why should I not take it?

Well, congratulations then, I think you've given me another reason not to play that game. Quick question, if this game is so terrible and stomping on your rights and everything... why are you here, and not there?

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

So you have no reason why I should go trough the same content again. You try to argue some kind of "earning the level", yeah, this is plain forcing others to plain game as you want.

As for quitting DW? Rl became too demanding to keep on playing, then I had more time when it was time to open Archosaur and I decided to start there. I am not arguing like I somehow deserve free level 80 on every server just cause I leveled one the hard way but I question what value would forcing me to level "legit" have.

Merging answer with below:

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I enjoy questing and grinding, I simply dont feel it all that appealing to do the same quests chains/repeat same patterns whenever I make new toon if I have a easier way to get to endgame content after I have already experienced other content. I am not forcing you to enter FC or hyper, you are trying to force me and everybody else not to so yeah...

Nice framing, but purely dependent on the existing situation. The whole "don't ruin my fun" argument only barely holds up, and even then, only because that happens to be the status quo. If powerleveling were never heard of and you were here advocating a brand-spanking new way to level at at least 10x the speed of any existing method, you'd be laughed out of the room. It's all about the context. People QQ over losing it because they've been spoiled by it.

So you want to know what you're forcing? How about forcing the entire game to accommodate your need for instant gratification in order to have fun? Or forcing the community to legitimize it? Again - I'm sure there's no shortage of pservers out there which offer your ideal brand of fun, so I'm at a loss as to why you feel the need to burden the official ones with it.

Regarding RL stuff... of course I can sympathize with that. Hell, it's not like I spend my life on this game. I play the game for maybe two hours a day except on weekends, and even then maybe 4-5 hours/day tops. I've still only got two 100+ characters out of the five I intend to get there (though the BM is close at 99.40). Does that mean I deserve 100 on five characters, because I have a life? Absolutely not. It means I prioritize RL over game, and of course my endgame character count and general wealth is going to reflect that. I'd rather live with that than trying to rationalize what I think I "deserve."

So the basic answer to your question there? Uniformity, really. As with many other things, the idea is that you get into this game what you put out of it (RL cash notwithstanding, but even that kinda counts depending on how you look at it). If life demands that people like you and I have less time to spend on this game, then we end up with less stuff and less influence in-game. What can I say? Life ain't fair.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Your first post to which I replied was a classic example of one. Whole damn post was constructed of different strawman arguments, I found it quite amusing.

Would you have preferred I go over 30+ pages with a fine-toothed comb and quote every redundant argument? Aside from the final one which I stylized in all caps, they seem pretty on-target to me. *shrug*

Level Restricted, 80-85+

bluestuffzzz wrote: »

My opinion is pretty simple. If they are restricted to a specific level (I.E level 85+, etc), or can't be used in FF at all - it is just like the goon glitch. You're probably asking yourself how is it anything like the goon glitch? It's quite easy to explain. For a while, goon glitching was done all the time. After the band aid patch was implemented to nerf the exp, all players that abused the glitch still got to play. That put new players & players that didn't abuse the glitch at a disadvantage to players who did abuse it.

Fast forward a bit, and if FF is level restricted or hypers can't be used, then all new players and players that didn't hyper FF are now at a level-disadvantage to the players who did use it. Hypering FF for all levels has been around for almost two years now. It's too late in the game to call it quits and put a level restriction on it. That's dumb. I understand that new players who hyper FF tend to come out to be nooby by level 100+. That's unfortunate and all, but it happens.

Before anyone criticizes my opinion, know that I've been playing PWI since beta. While I post on this stone-face, I'm actually an old school PWI player who had to zhen and grind my way to 100 on two different toons back in 08-10. I was one of the first waves of players to make it to 100. So, I'm not some hyper FF noob who is attempting to defend that instance because I need more toons 100+ or something.

So the answer is to perpetuate the problem so that all use it? I don't see that as a workable solution. No one is promised identical playing conditions. PWI changes things up all the time. Just ask those who sweat blood in Nirvana, only to see raps and cannies reduced so far in value that they are purchased with pocket change. Do we somehow go back and fix that for them? And what of the levelers who leveled before fc and hypers? Aren't they too getting an unfair treatment because of the existence of this opportunity? Can we go back and level the playing field for them too?

As far as you being an old-timer, I congratulate you for your longevity. It doesn't make your opinion immune from disagreement, though. I try to stay away from ad hominem so I wouldn't have criticized you personally, for having an opinion with which I disagree. That would be cheap and bogus and usually offered because a defensible opinion is not readily available.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

So the answer is to perpetuate the problem so that all use it? I don't see that as a workable solution. No one is promised identical playing conditions. PWI changes things up all the time. Just ask those who sweat blood in Nirvana, only to see raps and cannies reduced so far in value that they are purchased with pocket change. Do we somehow go back and fix that for them? And what of the levelers who leveled before fc and hypers? Aren't they too getting an unfair treatment because of the existence of this opportunity? Can we go back and level the playing field for them too?

As far as you being an old-timer, I congratulate you for your longevity. It doesn't make your opinion immune from disagreement, though. I try to stay away from ad hominem so I wouldn't have criticized you personally, for having an opinion with which I disagree. That would be cheap and bogus and usually offered because a defensible opinion is not readily available.

It's quite alright if you don't agree with me. I realize that what I stated is my opinion, and therefore could be considered moot to a lot of other folks.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ugh, that's a bad rule. Who made that so I can politely ask them to change that?

I agree on you having an opinion, I don't agree on you doing it on a mod account. The issue is that it is still perceived as an official representation, regardless of who says it isn't or how many times they say it isn't.

Everyone's viewpoints are biased. I'm saying your writing of it had excessive bias, did not read fair, and looked/is foolish. When you do that on a mod account, by pereception it devalues the reputation of the staff (paid or not), and has a negative reflection on the collective's integrity.

(If you seriously think that was a fair and unweighted post, I can recommend some college classes you should check into, or at the very least recommend that you get into politics or the media as a career.)

Do you get aroused by slandering people on the internet? How pathetic. It's a message board of a video game, and your slandering someone by saying how they need college courses and how foolish they are.

Here's a quote for you, sir: "Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

Levantica - Raging Tide wrote: »

How about remove the T3 weapons from Warsong because I already have full T3 and i dont need. Is same thing as lvl 100+ players vote for FC.....If they dont need anymore they sure vote for yes. I vote to remove T3 weapons and i vote to in Warsong stop people from making mobless run and bosses be imun to dmg if they dont kill all pavilion. How about that, fair enough? Just because you people dont need FC anymore after lvling 40 characters, dont mean that other dont need either.
I vote for NO WAY or LVL 85+ the best choice.

i vote no if you do the math if you constantly do bh and all the other daily it only takes 45 minutes. and you may get 20 percent and then constantly dont that it may take 3 months to get that to be able to hyper and who right is it to say how people play the game if they want to power lv they should have the option if not then so what. and the only people saying no is above 100 so really your just **** over everyone below that lv they should bring back hypers in fc

ryantowle17 wrote: »

i vote no if you do the math if you constantly do bh and all the other daily it only takes 45 minutes. and you may get 20 percent and then constantly dont that it may take 3 months to get that to be able to hyper and who right is it to say how people play the game if they want to power lv they should have the option if not then so what. and the only people saying no is above 100 so really your just **** over everyone below that lv they should bring back hypers in fc

Dismissing our opinion because we're over 100 is just a cheap substitute for logic. Who we are is irrelevant as whether our arguments are sound. Just the same, I have several alts who would benefit from hypering fc so your pejorative fails.

Nobody is getting screwed out of anything. That would imply that they are entitled to something that they would then not be getting. Let's lose the welfare mentality and discuss this on the merits of the issue, shall we?

As I noted before, the game has changed many times since the beginning. The current opportunities to level are much different than they were back then. If you want to level the playing field, you would have to placate the old-timers by taking fc out entirely. They didn't get the benefit of that and now you newer players are "**** them over" by having it easier than they did. Cherry-picking our victimhood allows us to make any point we want, doesn't it?

i voted lv restricted but good either way ;o

lv restriction might raise token price tho (aka oracle returns)

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

When you list pros, you're not supposed to spin them as cons or vice versa. If you think you are, I suggest you enroll in that course yourself. IT was worded properly for the side that it was on.

Do you know what rational choice theory is, because most of your criticism of what I wrote all fit into those three little words.

Rational Choice theory holds that when faced with options, a person will naturally choose the side that as the least amount of costs to get what they want. It explains why FC caused all those problems, why NW killed Nirvana, and actually explains a lot of human decisions.

Say the average player wants to level to 100


They have two options

Choice one: Do BH for a few months

Choice two: Do FC for a few weeks

Neither side is going to hurt their pocket books. What are they going to do? They are going to do FC.

Let's change it to nation wars

Choice one: Wait three months for the next 2x weekend, and then run the instances thousands of times to get your cannies, which equates to many, many hours.

Choice two: spend 2 hours in nation wars this weekend


Which of the two is the average person going to take? So the choice the gamers are making is incredibly obvious, and it is obvious what introducing that content is going to do. FC killed numerous quests, and numerous instances because it made them obsolete. This made it harder to get parties for those things, as you have to deal with only the players who genuinely enjoy those instances and get some sense of pride or whatever in not doing FC. A new f2p player isn't going to have enough coin to do FC, isn't going to know any markets to get those coins, and isn't gong to run into people doing the older, cheaper content because they aren't there. That is just fact. Your argument that people will party up without a high level is nonsense, most high levels join the parties because the existing parties aren't getting filled properly. They see you wc for a tank for 15 minutes, and they offer to do it for you. There were far, far, far more people running those instances when FC wasn't option, and it wasn't only because there were more players. It's because BH was the obvious option. Just as BH killed zhenning. And to argue that it's still possible to do, so BH didn't kill it is as ridiculous as saying nirvana is still there so nation wars didn't kill it.

FC isn't only a negative or positive instance, and spinning all the cons I listed into pros isn't going to change that. And all the cons you spun into pros were addressed in the pro side. Including the less tedious, including the less time consuming, including the income source, etc.

So to me, a good game designer will recognize and make instances that streamline certain things, and make people work for others in such a way that balances replayability for established players, and retains new players. I know that I personally would have quit this game if I joined it with it being an mmo and social game in mind, and being as utterly alone as I was in HT for weeks on end before I found my faction. And I only knew where to look because I am not a new player. I was new to HT though and asked in-game for a faction. Not one person had an active faction they would let me join, and not one person even knew one that helped new players. I looked for two days and asked about 30 people, and nobody would help me find one. I did get told to just FC past those levels, but I had no money for that.

In the end that's my opinion, based off my experiences. I dealt with both as a new player, and a mid-level player, and as a FC seller. And I made it pretty clear that it was only my opinion. I have dedicated my title to explaining I am not a GM. I have noted on all my opinion posts that it is only my opinion. If someone is still insistent that's it is not, that this their problem. Because I am still going to post it. You're free to disagree with or dislike me for it. I can't change your opinion of me. You're gung-ho that a mod shouldn't be allowed to post their personal opinions no matter how clearly they mark them as such. It's not the way the forums work here, and I would never volunteer for such a position.

OMG you are so smart! I was thinking the same. If you want FC the old ways why not all of you who voted 85+ or voted to stop hyper in FC go to Nirvana and get raps, why take it in 2 hours at NW? IT was fun and easy when all of you got 5-6 characters over 100+ and sell FC and get rich cuz it was sold with 500k few years back remember? Now that you all finish with that instance, let it die, the hell if we care right? I am so happy that our MOD and GM are so smart and not listen to kids like you that are jealous you spend years to lvl 100 and they can afford to make in 2 weeks or less lvl 100. I made my first character, cleric in 1 year and half lvl 100 then I made 2 characters in 1 year 100 and after I made FC with my hubby 10 a day or more and I power lvl other characters, why stay other 2 years for that when I done that already? My characters, my time, my money, if I can why not?

At first I was outraged, but now I'm kinda content with the way things are at the moment. I really hope it takes them a while to revert the change, I'm quite liking doing ALL my dailies on my pre-100 chars, not just the mindless FC running.

Apparently people got a problem with so called "FC-Babies" - easy to solve that: either get friends u do ur quests with or teach them babies how to play...
Crying doesnt solve anything , neither does turning to old times - the "damage" was done.

>No Hypers in FC? - people will find a way around that...
They already do by asking high-ups to do their BHs and stuff.

And tell me how does that promote learning ur class.

>Level limit? - U all said its damn easy to level to 85 without FC... So whats the gain?


And to all those who like to tell "I leveled my char without FC (and look how great i am...)" - nice u ve done that, but it doesnt give u any right to force people to follow ur tracks.
If u r as pro as u think now, u should be aware of the fact u started as a nub too.

BTW I ve been playing this game since 2008 on various servers, and there were and always will be people who want to turn back time to the "good old days". Luckily PWI never listened to that or all ur sins, psys, and EG would be history.b:bye

Oups_Dead - Harshlands wrote: »

ok we got ur opinion already u even made a pool nd we've seen the result (90% want the strict non hyper rule changed) i'm not gonna give any further comments on what u've said if all what the 90% on the players r saying can't convince u then it's ur right thx for making a pool

That was actually Krisnda that made the poll. Credit goes to him.

edit: For the record, I am for a level cap of 75.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Implying kill x mob/boss isn't mindless.

Or collect x shards and wait 10 minutes.

Hell even Cube is pretty mindless.

If people actually read, maybe.

But face it, we still have people who fail even the coming of age quest because they don't actually read. Cutting down on people who can get away with that (and then have a tendency to rant at you about how they know what they're doing when they're the ones constantly making you work harder to cover for their failings) would be a nice thing for the high level community.

... And giving more new players that have other lowbies to do stuff with would be a nice bonus as well so they don't quit a week into the game.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

That was actually Krisnda that made the poll. Credit goes to him.

edit: For the record, I am for a level cap of 75.

that won't be possible ever
they don't write new codes or at least very rarely they weren't able 2 fix a simple glitch in fc or final TT3-3 glitch or fc 2nd boss glitch ect... to make a new cave it'd take them a year maybe (fix restrictions ect...) so for now we want out fc bk they can write their code slowly idc if they r gonna make us wait 6 months then it'll be a problem for ppl who wanna climb to the top. u said u had a 101 sin if u had a 103 sin nd u worked hard on getting him to 104 u'd know what i am talking about when 4 hrz of quests give u 0.4% daily meaning u'd need half a year to reach 104 if u r 103

OPKossy wrote: »

If people actually read, maybe.

But face it, we still have people who fail even the coming of age quest because they don't actually read. Cutting down on people who can get away with that (and then have a tendency to rant at you about how they know what they're doing when they're the ones constantly making you work harder to cover for their failings) would be a nice thing for the high level community.

... And giving more new players that have other lowbies to do stuff with would be a nice bonus as well so they don't quit a week into the game.

If you're talking about the quest where the game lies to you about free stuff, then you kinda have to read to realize that b:shutup

And just avoid squading with people who give you a hard time.