Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

Skaitavia wrote: »

For LA classes (Assassins and Archers), their damage is calculated via dexterity rather than strength, which means more dex on an archer/sin = more damage for them. The crit, accuracy, and evasion bonuses are pluses.

Awww Skai you didn't scroll down far enough did you b:surrender

So.... what's the argument here? That +100 Mag for R9s3 is broken? Of course it is. Why are we arguing about it? It's essentially +20 levels for any caster that puts on R9s3 with all the other stat bonuses and att/def levels to boot.

Purify on weapon is broken too? Yep, once again the arguments here are pointless. In a nutshell everyone is arguing about what proc/bonus/stat amount is MORE broken which in itself is laughably wrong. Is PWE (or Wanmei) going t fix it? Experience says no, they are just going to break it further.

I have given up hope of these issues ever being properly addressed and have decided to just live with brokenness of it all. However, if you still have problems with it the solution isn't to ask for more breaks to counter broken gear. It's to STOP GIVING PWI MONEY TO BREAK IT. Of course I expect the trolls and heavy CSer's to start going on about how buying broken gear pays for the game etc... etc... but there are plenty of things in the boutique one can buy that are not inherently game breaking and one can still have a lot of fun with. Charms, PACKS, safety scrolls, D ORBS, mounts, flyers, just to name a few. Do they rake in the money that R9 does? Probably not, but with a well designed game with planned longetivity it's perfectly possible for any company to make a tidy profit with the amount of things PWI sells in the boutique these days. Couple that with the possible return of casual players and its a win win for all.

Of course, as many of you might claim from reading that statement, we don't live in a "Perfect World" and the above scenario can be looked at as idealistic at best and sadly unattainable at worst. That being the case however the point remains. If you truly want the game to change for the better you have to take a stand and refuse to buy into the R9 power craze. Since many of the people still playing the game aren't going to do that, the game is going to remain a broken mess and PWI will look at the complaints and see ways to make more broken gear for more $$$. There really isn't anything more to say about it than that.

I have to wonder... how much of this might have been solved if they just put a damn cap on APS in the first place....

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So.... what's the argument here? That +100 Mag for R9s3 is broken? Of course it is. Why are we arguing about it? It's essentially +20 levels for any caster that puts on R9s3 with all the other stat bonuses and att/def levels to boot.

Purify on weapon is broken too? Yep, once again the arguments here are pointless. In a nutshell everyone is arguing about what proc/bonus/stat amount is MORE broken which in itself is laughably wrong. Is PWE (or Wanmei) going t fix it? Experience says no, they are just going to break it further.

I have given up hope of these issues ever being properly addressed and have decided to just live with brokenness of it all. However, if you still have problems with it the solution isn't to ask for more breaks to counter broken gear. It's to STOP GIVING PWI MONEY TO BREAK IT. Of course I expect the trolls and heavy CSer's to start going on about how buying broken gear pays for the game etc... etc... but there are plenty of things in the boutique one can buy that are not inherently game breaking and one can still have a lot of fun with. Charms, PACKS, safety scrolls, D ORBS, mounts, flyers, just to name a few. Do they rake in the money that R9 does? Probably not, but with a well designed game with planned longetivity it's perfectly possible for any company to make a tidy profit with the amount of things PWI sells in the boutique these days. Couple that with the possible return of casual players and its a win win for all.

Of course, as many of you might claim from reading that statement, we don't live in a "Perfect World" and the above scenario can be looked at as idealistic at best and sadly unattainable at worst. That being the case however the point remains. If you truly want the game to change for the better you have to take a stand and refuse to buy into the R9 power craze. Since many of the people still playing the game aren't going to do that, the game is going to remain a broken mess and PWI will look at the complaints and see ways to make more broken gear for more $$$. There really isn't anything more to say about it than that.

I have to wonder... how much of this might have been solved if they just put a damn cap on APS in the first place....

...you are seriously my new favorite person. Pretty much everything here is right on the money. Though I'd argue that packs facilitate a good amount of brokenness as well, considering the presence of things like Vit stones and DoT/DoD in them (to say nothing of the "oh hey, let's pretend you did 1000 hours of PVE for this" gears :P).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote:

There is me... who trolled people by making them believe/question the existance of ignore def level charms.

You're a troll? o.o

And here I thought all that "bum at the edge of existence" stuff was a compliment. :P

I should totally make that my title... >_>

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Can you people at least understand the opening post and the thread topic before posting?

"100 magic per damage multiplier" might not be the clearest way to express it, but the meaning should have been clear from the post.

Physical damage from stats is calculated by dividing your character's relevant attribute by 150 (dex for range, str for melee)

Magic damage is calculated by dividing magic by 100.

So a BM with 600 strength gets a 4x multiplier to his/her weapon attack from stats, whereas a wizard with 600 magic gets a 6x multiplier to his/her weapon attack.

OP's point is considering the fact that physical classes have to allocate more of their non-primary stats to wear gear, is it fair for caster classes to still have the higher weapon attack multiplier from their primary stat? Consider also the fact that there are more physical defense buffs available than magic defense buffs.

Obviously, this debate cannot be valid without a comparison of weapon attack and attack speed between the various classes, and you'd also have to consider range vs melee.

Well now, this is a more interesting argument. However, the answer, and the surrounding issues, are not the complicated.

Back in the days of yore, when axe BM's were the only BM out there, and the most broken thing in the game was the CS phoenix, the damage multiplier of magic was accounted for by mag classes needing VIT to survive high refined axe BMs and having something called chanelling time. Now, for those of you that don't know what chanelling time is, its something that made spells take quite a while to cast, perhaps 3 seconds or so for even the most basic ones. This meant that casters needed to do more damage per hit as they would only get perhaps one, maybe two before the BM or barb was on top of them and doing their phys damage at 1-2 attacks per second. Yes, that's right 1 MAYBE 2 attacks PER SECOND. This coupled with the fact that HA armor gives more mag def than AA armor gives physical defense and the necessity to do more mag damage is quite apparent.

Ok, history lesson over. So what about now? Today we have casters with -50 to 70% (or more) channeling time, AA armor with insane phys def boosts, and mag weapons refined to +12 giving anywhere from 20-50k magic attack base with 600-700 mag.

We also have 600-700 dex archers that also do 20-40k phys damage per hit (sometimes more) with a faster firing time then bows and crossbows were ever meant to be fired. Barbs with 25-30k HP (with non CS gears I might add), Sins with 5 APS that also have 500 or more dex doing 10-25k or so base hit (without crits) , and the loveable BMs with HF and axes and lets not forget that wonderfull pulling skill they have.

So should the 100x damage multiplier for magic weapons be changed? The answer is NO, because the base formula of the game is not what's broken. What's broken is the level and abilities of gear players have equipped nowadays. Change the base formula and you change everything about the class from the ground up. Not just how they perform at 100+ with OP gear. This means that low level clerics, wizzies, and venos, will have a far harder time at lower levels because they aren't doing the type of damage they are supposed to while still having many of the chanelling and armor limitation that still exist at levels below 100.

In the end, no matter how you approach it, the problem is not the base formula of the game (save for APS but that was an error that was exploited by both players and devs) it is the gear that players are equipping. Changing the gear would take care of far more problems than changing the formula, but the devs aren't about to do that and the player base would riot if they did. My previous argument remains. IF YOU DON"T LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS GOING STOP BUYING OP GEAR. The Devs can "fix" any formula they want to (heck venos are getting their formulas changed here sometime soon) but if you keep buying the next nuke that comes out, your opponents are going to want nukes too, and that formula change won't make a bit of difference.

Actually, the "formulas" of the game are incredibly broken. Despite what you may think you know, class balance is extremely skewed at all levels because of these "formulas." It's only end-game people posting their observations because anyone else would just be told to "level up". One example of this is the fact that archers can pretty much face roll every class pre-endgame.

You needn't worry about "low level clerics and venos doing less damage" or whatever **** that's about, because it's simple matter to just adjust the add-on damage of spells at various levels anyway. At endgame, where you actually have a lot of stats and everyone's abilities are maxed out, this difference is much more noticeable, that is why some see a need to have this discussion.

To all this, I can only repeat what I've been saying for (literally) years now: Fix what's broken, don't break what isn't.

Loving this discussion quite a bit... will continue to watch it.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

random note:
most casters are still hovering 3x-4x chan, (overall though casters do have more -chan then before though) but there are very very few 7x+ or even 6x.

though 5x and high 4x is pretty feasible. most players arent too keen on chan due to all the sacrifices in everything else... (defense, matk, crit in particular). a high mag/dph/crit build definetly outperforms my build by far.

anyways please continue. just wanted to add to the particular point about chan n_n

Yeah, they seem to be going the route with both mechanisms that scale to be better the more that it's stacked with the newer gear: less -int for physical damage and less -chan for casters. Forces people to choose between high levels of ATK/DEF + stat boost, or higher DPS.

I don't know about magic, but I think 60 crit is too much, to survive a R9rr archer more then 2 shots I would need over 15k hp.

It's what I think is broken the whole btw the end game and not end game. I'm 3rd Nirvana and on 3 sparks crit I do less then 1k to a R9rr while they do 7k crit + all the time, they always crit. I think they need to stop push higher the end game gears and give more challenge in a other way, there's nothing challenging for a R9rrr archer to one shot everyone, I know a archer R9rr that don't play anymore for that reason, he can sit afk and people cannot kill him while he one shot people without even use skill.

That's the problem, people can be total idiot that don't know how to play, but if they press ''O'' or get a rich hubby/wife they can beat everyone.

I personally think they need to nerf every class so that come back at the most skilled person will win pvp fight over the biggest credit card.

I miss when TT99 was end game gears, cause even people with TT90 or OHT was able to beat TT99 if they was skilled now someone in R8 or nirvy gear cannot beat a R9rr even if he's more skill.

Sometime when we are bored we go 10 people of my faction do GBQ then we gank our director that is R9rr Wizz, at 9 people it take us a while to take him down and we are not a bunch of idiot that don't know our class, but we don't even do 1k on him while he can 1-2 shots people not R9rr.

The range is to far. They should put a max attack and defense level a person can get, to something like 50 of each.

I mean how you want a 3rd nirvy recast or even a R9 to take down someone with 110 att level and as much def lvl? I think the def and att lvl is a issue too.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

In pvp both classes suffer channeling time. Even sins and BMs have largely switched away from aps to a skill spam technique so attack rate is somewhat equal (or largely variable) between any class now. This was an excellent post, showing that even focusing on defense, magic attack (dph), and crit many casters can walk around with -40-50% channeling. They also can boist BM like defenses, and crits in the 20-30% range, again, similar to the HA classes.

Melees usually have quicker cast animations though, but our channeling can be similar, until you consider -channeling gear on a caster. In that case casters can often be skill spamming faster than melees while starting at about a 30m range. Casters also are more likely to carry channeling reducing apoths. Wizards specifically can alternate that with Essential Sutra to be nightmares.

Think this is what you want to stick with for your main focus; whereas before APS was a counter-point, the introduction of Purify has removed its ability to offset the need to use pure skill damage when trying to take an end gamer down. Because of it coming down to channel vs. channel, with melee range being an extra handicap all its own, the old equalizer may no longer be needed. As well, the time for them to likely work in a fix and it filter down, would see many more people with the endgame gear that would require it. Especially since we can likely expect these http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/27942, in the next year of the snake pack.

I think that is the main drive you're going for here.

EDIT: Was about to add in how MageBane could be useful, but then: Purify. So nevermind on that.

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe he should stop farming L30 nubs.

In equal gear, R999 archers aren't one shotting anyone.

I was going to say the same thing

It's not the build that is being questioned, it's the multiplier.
Even with a pure strength build for axes, a bms damage multiplier which requires 150 points in strength is not equal to what an arcane class recieves for 100 points in magic.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Every 100 points into magic a caster will deal their weapons damage more. If their weapon damage is 2-3k, then every 100 points they get another 2-3k damage to their base attack. Every other class its 150 points/multiplier.

This is assuming the caster upgrades their weapon, but even then, it's usually a while before the next weapon and it has to be the right one. If you're serious about damage you don't go with wands, for example, but then you're screwed if you're stuck in the level range where that's all that's available. So all and all caster magic damage can be subject to bottle necking.

Note: Pre Rank/nirvana stuff. Obviously those wont cause bottle necking.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

did i heard you right about aiming for 300 dex even tho dex just give you acc crith and evesion.

and if that is what u meant why would you ask for a damage boost.

its ur choice to get ur dex higher.

but the class always been str based since i played this game so far as 2007 in pw_my.

as far acc u can get a acuricy pot.


and again its UR choice to go pure dex so you will have to deal with ur damage being ****.

55 dex means you won't be hitting anyone, period. Archers and sins rolling around with mental evasion means your chance of doing anything as a bm is made mute.

Pure Axe Bm = Useless bm pretty much. b:bye