Mystic, Veno or Cleric Damage comparison?

furyokuu · January 2013

Which of these 3 classes do the best DD? I want to make either one of these 3 class. Don't like Psychic or Wizard

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

If you want to be a DD forget cleric right now.

furyokuu · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If you want to be a DD forget cleric right now.

Hehe, i would have guessed they cant DD as well as the others

What about... Mystic vs Veno?

Kremia - Lost City · January 2013

If you want to be a dd make a wiz

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

furyokuu wrote: »

Hehe, i would have guessed they cant DD as well as the others

What about... Mystic vs Veno?

The problem is not if they can or not it's that cleric role is not to DD.

I voted for mystic.

Suikyo - Raging Tide · January 2013

actually no one of those classes is a pure DD, but the dmg imput from clerics is bigger, because they need to have a great magic dmg to keep good heals, but if u want a real magic DD make a wiz or a psy

furyokuu · January 2013

I told u guys i dont like Wizards or Psychics

WnbTank - Archosaur · January 2013

My in game wifey with N3+10 magic sword hits pretty hard. She`s a mystic and she hit me, non crit, for 7.5k or so, when we dmg tested the wep after she refined it. Psy/Wizzie would hit harder but if those arent option, mystic deals decent damage. It should be noted my wifey isnt full N3 and doesnt have the attack levels set bonus nor am I sure she had blessing on at that time.

Veneir - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If you want to be a DD forget cleric right now.

This. Clerics have four one-target damage skills(one being DoT, two being standard attacks (phys and ele attacks) and one being a four second channel stronger ele attack) and three AoE target damage skills in their tree(two of which take sparks)... they're not incapable of DD but it's certainily not their niche in programing or squads. They're.. well, clerics for a reason. Their job is to cleric. o_O If you're a celric and you're DDing in a squad they'll get all

< sdgkna! at you.

Mystics are just a mess and have things everywhere so they're hard to really judge.. they're given a hard-ish time in squads/have a hard time finding squads because they don't really 'have' a niche/very few people have a mystic main so it's not--yeah. Their main attack skill has a very short channel, they have a knockback that works in PvP and they have some very good skills on summons like stuns or damage absorbs, etcetc. They're fun and do pretty nice damage but no one really knows what to do with them. x3

Venos are supposed to be able to give debuff support and such along with dealing damage as apposed to just standing there and DDing(mystics can multi-task healing, some debuffs and attack things especially if they have a mistress out(but the mana omg Dx), venos are more of one at a time), sadily most of them forget that though so if they just DD'd for the most part(not saying this is acceptable

< Please amp and stuff you'll do more damage then anyway) they probabily won't suffer as much as the other two... they have form switches which the other ones don't have to keep in mind, etc

Damage-wise the classes are probabily around Cleric<Veno~Mystic.
If the classes are actually debuffing with what they have available the damage output of them/squad as a whole not counting other independent factours is probabily cleric~mystic<veno.
Treatment-wise from squadmembers... you'll probabily hate them the least as a veno xD.

And I know you said you hated this but those three classes are all something that have something to do 'other' than DD and a magic just DD would really be psy or wizzie... Veno is the only class of the three you mentioned without heals for other players which would get you sidetracked from DD and debuffs are focused towards the damage done to the boss/the damage the boss does to the people, soooo.

/wall

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

I think it's a mistake to dismiss Veno right off the bat. If we are talking sustained dps just our sage/demon sparks make for an overwhelming advantage over the other two classes, and it's only fair to add amp gains to that. Further, we'll soon be getting an upgrade that should make our pets available through most PvE endgame content and increase their damage output. As a reference a Clawed Derjan's Hatchling is already hitting for upwards of 5k each second.

OmniX - Heavens Tear · January 2013

The OP is asking which of the three is a better DD...I dont see why some of you keep telling him to make a psy or a wiz to DD better when he didnt ask that in the first place. A mystic is a better DD out of the three. From personal experience in pvp and pve.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think it's a mistake to dismiss Veno right off the bat. If we are talking sustained dps just our sage/demon sparks make for an overwhelming advantage over the other two classes, and it's only fair to add amp gains to that. Further, we'll soon be getting an upgrade that should make our pets available through most PvE endgame content and increase their damage output. As a reference a Clawed Derjan's Hatchling is already hitting for upwards of 5k each second.

I never saw a veno get aggro on me in caster and back in time I was only R8 and even R9 veno wasn't able to out DD me.

Veno are really great and important, no one can replace them, but Mystic DD better than them.

There's also a lot of thing to take in consideration, the gears, the build, the refines, the cultivation, the play style of the person.

But I think at the end the question should be more which kind of support the person want to be, veno is more about debuff/amp/purge support while mystic is a healing support. Someone that don't want to heal at all should go for veno. (For someone that have as choice veno or mystic)

@OP: May I ask why you don't like wizz and psy? That could maybe help us to know more why you like or not for your next class choice.

opkossy · January 2013

Aggro is a poor way to judge venos, though.

They're already amping everyone's damage via amp. Plus their damage is split up quite a large deal between themselves and their pets. Not to mention most venos are more supportive than purely offensive so they aren't even DDing as much as they could.

I'd say this would go between venos and mystic, personally. Clerics are still capable DDs but going from the topic and first post... well... the LAST thing I want to see is yet another metal mage cleric that refuses to heal because they're busy trying to DD. ~_~;

FayHumming - Dreamweaver · January 2013

b:chuckle r9rr Mystic at end game gears, op heal,def,seal,sleep..etc

furyokuu · January 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

Aggro is a poor way to judge venos, though.

They're already amping everyone's damage via amp. Plus their damage is split up quite a large deal between themselves and their pets. Not to mention most venos are more supportive than purely offensive so they aren't even DDing as much as they could.

I'd say this would go between venos and mystic, personally. Clerics are still capable DDs but going from the topic and first post... well... the LAST thing I want to see is yet another metal mage cleric that refuses to heal because they're busy trying to DD. ~_~;

I decidided to be mystic.
I dont like Psychic and Wizards because i already made one and dont find them that enjoyable.

Veneir - Dreamweaver · January 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

Aggro is a poor way to judge venos, though.

They're already amping everyone's damage via amp. Plus their damage is split up quite a large deal between themselves and their pets. Not to mention most venos are more supportive than purely offensive so they aren't even DDing as much as they could.

Ah, yeah.. if I want to pass someone a spark I have to stop what I'm doing(pet can be dealing damage.. if it's not dead. Most of the time I don't even have a pet out for bosses anymore due to pet spam dying factour), if this stop this if this stop this from damage.. before, when I had two pets I cycled through to keep certain debufs on permanantily, I was only DDing about half of the time, the other half I was summoning and amping and stuff.) Mystics can have three or four things going on at once as apposed to the veno's two, so they're more capable of distributing it out so they're supporting and damage dealing at the same time.
While I have all three(cleric, mystic, veno), they all have pretty different builds so aren't that comparable (vitality cleric, 8+1+1 ish mystic, HA veno) and mystic's still in her fifties.. but she's always done way more damage independentily than my veno did at her level. Of course my veno also didn't have a nix before...

furyokuu · January 2013

Though im not going to heal 100% of the time since clerics are also there

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I never saw a veno get aggro on me in caster and back in time I was only R8 and even R9 veno wasn't able to out DD me.

Good aggro management is not the same as fail damage output...

Sparking as it relates to DD, this is all 15 secs ofc

Sage Cleric 700% wep dmg / Demon Cleric 700% wep dmg, 25% inc to att speed
Sage Mystic 700% wep dmg / Demon Mystic 500% wep dmg, 25% inc to att speed

yeah, those attack speed increases should really come in handy...

Sage Veno 900% mag att + 500% wep dmg / Demon veno 750% mag att + 650% wep dmg

And add 30% more damage for 20 secs for Sage Venos, 25% for 26 secs for Demon, both on 30 sec cycles. That our debuffs also benefit others doesn't mean they don't count for us since, unlike the other classes, a competent veno will always have that. Comparing the damage dealt by individual skills Cleric wins in terms of spammables, although Veno makes up for that with big hitters like Lucky and Blazing. Mystic gets the worst figures but makes up for that with summons... Then again Venos have their pets also... You see where I'm going? All things being equal Venos get the advantage of their sparks and amping, granted Mystics get the better dph with their Cragglord, but in terms of sustained dps Veno wins out. Yes, Mystics get their own debuffs but amp isn't the only thing in a veno's arsenal either. Further, Veno can perform the DD role to near its full potential without neglecting its more traditional squad role, Clerics and Mystics simply can't.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

Aggro is a poor way to judge venos, though.

They're already amping everyone's damage via amp. Plus their damage is split up quite a large deal between themselves and their pets. Not to mention most venos are more supportive than purely offensive so they aren't even DDing as much as they could.

Yes it's why I say veno are more support debuff etc.. and if the cleric is doing a good job the mystic can fully focus on DD, while nothing can replace a veno and the veno will always need to purge, amp and debuff.

And when I say I never saw a veno stealing aggro on me that wasn't for the good venos that pass chi and amp, it was for veno that never go in fox form and play it like a mage. As mystic I also had to trow plants, trow heals cause a lot of cleric in caster don't know how to heal and debuff and since I didn't wanted to get my charm to tick I was healing myself and DDing while cleric just CHB every 5 minutes. (plus in caster mystic had to heal pets to keep them alive, so mystic also had stuff to do beside DD)

furyokuu wrote: »

Though im not going to heal 100% of the time since clerics are also there

If there's a cleric in squad you should be fine, but sometime if the cleric is in trouble you might need to support heal the time it come back fine. In some instance people take mystic as main healer cause of lack of cleric, but there's no obligation to do it, but it would open you more squad at low level if you can fully heal in some instances. (like FC and some low BH)

Yin - Momaganon · January 2013

Damage difference is a minor thing between these classes. They are so different to play that better choose one which you like.

Clerics are not that often DDing, as venos and mystics but once there are multiple clerics in squads they do it well. Except if they dont trust the healing cleric and throw some heals now and then. Clerics and mystics has more options to save if squad **** up than venos.

If you chose cleric and you had super gears, you will find people who takes rather any other class than 2nd cleric even the other class couldn't deal even close the damage you can do. Just because their mind is set that cleric can't DD b:laugh

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Just let me get something clear in here, I'm counting amp as something any veno would do even if focusing solely on DD. As for the other debuffs, Myriads are insta-cast and Ironwood is a damage skill. Stuff like Purging or using Sage Soul Degeneration is situational and not that much of a waste of time since you're regularly going Fox to amp anyway. Which leaves only sparking as something that would mess with your dps output, however you're not usually doing this every time the skill is off CD. Other than exceptional circumstances it's mostly situational (Cleric putting up BB, player ressed) since most endgame players should handle their chi management adequately enough they shouldn't be relying on Lending Hand. Personally I find it infuriating for someone who's just wasted a good couple of mins chatting to ask for a spark right as a fight starts, sparking is a resource, not a convenience...

What i'm saying is yes, Venos may get distracted from the DD role by having to fulfill other squad duties, but overall it should be minimal.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Good aggro management is not the same as fail damage output...

Sparking as it relates to DD, this is all 15 secs ofc

Sage Cleric 700% wep dmg / Demon Cleric 700% wep dmg, 25% inc to att speed
Sage Mystic 700% wep dmg / Demon Mystic 500% wep dmg, 25% inc to att speed

yeah, those attack speed increases should really come in handy...

Sage Veno 900% mag att + 500% wep dmg / Demon veno 750% mag att + 650% wep dmg

And add 30% more damage for 20 secs for Sage Venos, 25% for 26 secs for Demon, both on 30 sec cycles. That our debuffs also benefit others doesn't mean they don't count for us since, unlike the other classes, a competent veno will always have that. Comparing the damage dealt by individual skills Cleric wins in terms of spammables, although Veno makes up for that with big hitters like Lucky and Blazing. Mystic gets the worst figures but makes up for that with summons... Then again Venos have their pets also... You see where I'm going? All things being equal Venos get the advantage of their sparks and amping, granted Mystics get the better dph with their Cragglord, but in terms of sustained dps Veno wins out. Yes, Mystics get their own debuffs but amp isn't the only thing in a veno's arsenal either. Further, Veno can perform the DD role to near its full potential without neglecting its more traditional squad role, Clerics and Mystics simply can't.

For some reasons that I don't know in any instances I do that there's a veno in the squad I almost never see them spark (no joke), on my mystic I can 3 sparks than I'm back full chi before the 15 seconds is over, I can 3 sparks easy 4 times in one minute sometime, I've never saw a veno 3 sparks as often as I do. In caster I was at my 5-6 times 3 sparks before every other class do a second 3 sparks.

Don't forget that mystic have invigorate which is 20% more damage from our skills. We have also rapid growth. Mistress can be sacrifice for 200% more magic attack for 20 seconds.

I have a veno, a mystic and 2 clerics level 100+, I love my veno, but when I want to DD I use my mystic, if cleric was a DD than my cleric will be the highest DD of those, than mystic and veno last.

But I think it's a never ending fight mystic vs veno.

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · January 2013

furyokuu wrote: »

I told u guys i dont like Wizards or Psychics

Then you don't like DD's.

furyokuu · January 2013

I asked which of the 3 classes Mystic, Veno or Cleric are best are DD'ing. Read the question next time instead of trying to contradict it. I was just checking because people say that our DD is almost as high as psychics. The wiki also says it too so I'm kinda confused

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

furyokuu wrote: »

I asked which of the 3 classes Mystic, Veno or Cleric are best are DD'ing. Read the question next time instead of trying to contradict it. I was just checking because people say that our DD is almost as high as psychics. The wiki also says it too so I'm kinda confused

Our DD? You mean veno and mystic DD highest than psychic DD?

furyokuu · January 2013

Yeah, i've read certain places that mystics damage is almost equivilent to that of a psychic, also asked in game to a bunch of friends to compare them and they say the same thing. I've also heard people say mystic and Veno damage are similar.

Pros and Cons of a mystic
Pros:
Having summons and healing skills makes them excellent for both solo and squad situations
Summons can lure
High magic defense
Can use both AoE healing plants to perform heals similar to the clerics' "BB"
Very fast heals
Damage almost equivalent to that of psychics

Cons:
Massive mana use
Low physical defense
Low HP
Slow movement speed
Class have no focus (jack of trade all class)
Can be expensive to play due to mana use
Heals don't stack, making it difficult to keep a tank healed

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

But is there any reasons why you don't like psy and wizz?

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

For some reasons that I don't know in any instances I do that there's a veno in the squad I almost never see them spark (no joke), on my mystic I can 3 sparks than I'm back full chi before the 15 seconds is over, I can 3 sparks easy 4 times in one minute sometime, I've never saw a veno 3 sparks as often as I do. In caster I was at my 5-6 times 3 sparks before every other class do a second 3 sparks.

Don't forget that mystic have invigorate which is 20% more damage from our skills. We have also rapid growth. Mistress can be sacrifice for 200% more magic attack for 20 seconds.

I have a veno, a mystic and 2 clerics level 100+, I love my veno, but when I want to DD I use my mystic, if cleric was a DD than my cleric will be the highest DD of those, than mystic and veno last.

But I think it's a never ending fight mystic vs veno.

I personally may avoid triple sparking all that often because squadding with mostly randoms you do want to be prepared for something going wrong (I can Roar with my pet, then use skills like Hood or Feral to survive keeping the boss busy while the squad recovers) and debuffing with an aim to benefit mostly others (eg keeping Ironwood up) does consume some chi. Add to that you want to be ready to spark if needed. But as I posted earlier it shouldn't take that much away from your full potential output nor prevent you from sparking at all. In a competitive squad in which people can handle themselves, and will use a genie or chi pots rather than call on Lending Hand for instance, you can spark very effectively while keeping Ironwood and Myriads up (after all this is bringing your A game, and you're using genie and chi pots yourself) and on this scenario a Veno should beat a Mystic away in straight DD, especially if you factor in both performing their full squad roles.

What you see on the field a lot of the time however is we don't generally play that way. It's not just that mistrust may keep you from going all out but that it just isn't worth it to use expensive apos just to shave half a minute off a boss fight or save yourself a negligible amount in repairs. We mostly ALL do this to some extent. While I would certainly use EP in a competitive scenario, for the everyday stuff I usually just keep it for the exact opposite, fights that are going way too slow. And it's not like you see people using runes for PvE all that often. What I'm saying is for the everyday stuff we all tend to do things economically and with as much of a safety margin as possible (that's leaving as much stuff off CD as practical) which really does have an impact in how we perceive general class balance.

As for the skills and lysing bonuses, venos also get Howl, Myriads, we add reflect damage, etc. I was trying to keep it to just clear straightforward advantages and not go on a skill by skill comparison. Only BMs get something on par with amp, and the advantages of Veno sparking that you quoted speaks for itself. Yes, you may consider impractical to compare with Veno at it's full potentail output, but then how often do Mystics get to go full DD? If we are going for the everyday stuff I think even then veno gets a better chance to deal damage.

Guess it's a let's jus agree to disagree kind of thing.

furyokuu · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

But is there any reasons why you don't like psy and wizz?

I played them and dont really enjoy them.
Also me and my friends are making characters and i dont really want to be the same class as them, they both got wizards and psychic and i got mystic :P. I think its more fun this way.
Manray your forgetting about storm mistress. it can do literally as much damage as the mystic itself

Telarith - Sanctuary · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

yeah, those attack speed increases should really come in handy...

Actually, it does. Considering that the attack speed increase is actually a -channeling effect on demon clerics when they spark, increasing the DPS of them.

Also alot of people are confusing DPS and DPH in here it seems. Actual DPS should vary based off of gear used, but early on there isn't much difference in DPS between a wizzie and a cleric. A wizzie has a few harder hitting spells, but those also require longer to actually get off. So using them would be a huge DPH, while actually decreasing their DPS.

It's the same reason my cleric never used Wield Thunder when my focus was damage dealing. On a boss it would simply lower my DPS and cost more mana for nothing useful. As a starter on mobs, it didn't do enough to counter the lack of slow effect Cyclone gave which allowed me the extra attack I'd get in. And after getting aggro, it would just be a senseless waste.

To give a good comparison at high lvl, it would require what gear adds, how much -chan, whether it's going demon or sage, etc. Though it is weird how often this topic comes up on the forum.

DeffyNature - Archosaur · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

For some reasons that I don't know in any instances I do that there's a veno in the squad I almost never see them spark (no joke), on my mystic I can 3 sparks than I'm back full chi before the 15 seconds is over, I can 3 sparks easy 4 times in one minute sometime, I've never saw a veno 3 sparks as often as I do. In caster I was at my 5-6 times 3 sparks before every other class do a second 3 sparks.

Don't forget that mystic have invigorate which is 20% more damage from our skills. We have also rapid growth. Mistress can be sacrifice for 200% more magic attack for 20 seconds.

I have a veno, a mystic and 2 clerics level 100+, I love my veno, but when I want to DD I use my mystic, if cleric was a DD than my cleric will be the highest DD of those, than mystic and veno last.

But I think it's a never ending fight mystic vs veno.

I think I can actually count on one hand the times I've triple sparked since starting the game 3 years ago. I really have better uses for my chi, even as a sage veno.
As MANray said, hood is important to keep in mind, but in a boss fight I seldom am a part of a fail enough squad to need to use it. Instead of sage spark, I'd rather just go fox myriad-human-nova-noxious-bramble rage the hell outta groups in delta and such, or on single targets, I really do use both myriads, sage ironwood and sage frost scarab as often as possible, and those do take up on chi, but I get what I feel is best, that is, I debuff and DoT the hell outta that puppy, since I'm not competing with the other dds in stealing agro. I really don't want it on my veno, they can keep it.
I amp, I debuff, therefor I offer my squad the best damage output, while my pet and DoTs keep giving damage to my target while I actually do the debuffing, then I go all nuke-crazy between rounds.
For the poll, I chose mystic, simply because not only there are a few great combo nukes, not to mention mistress's damage, but the stats are in their favor, offering more magic attack/ mana than I could ever get from my magic build.

Mystic, Veno or Cleric Damage comparison?

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