pure magic or some vit?

Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »

TL:DR since I just realized the wall of text I've written: skill, response time, reflexes, however you want to spin it > magic attack
Anytime, anyday.

If you judge a cleric based on their mp pool instead of their reaction to an AA/LA char at 20% hp - that's your prerogative. Doesn't make it the right one by any definition.

Not seeing how any of this is pertinent, actually.

The TL:DR is 'Good clerics are better than bad clerics' (but even they bump two week old threads).

Does the argument "I've been a vit cleric for 3.5+ years now" still apply? Isn't that the same as saying when tt80/tt90 is your endgame go vit cleric? Aside from TW, is there any point to vit on a lvl 90+ cleric anymore?

This does remind me of when a sin brags about sage paint in an area I can tank without any paint at all. Yes more survivability is better, but at a certain point you have enough and it doesn't do you any more good. With clerics vitality's benefits of survivability are sketchy at best (magic gives you more mdef, stronger self and squad heals, keeps your tank alive better, stronger plume shell) but with gear refines, shards, and gear being the bulk of your survivability and the easiness of pve play in pwi I don't see a point for such a marginal increase in survivability.

Edit:
Thought I'd add two quick stories that happened to me recently. I was tanking Aba on my barb and was wondering if I was getting any heals at all. I look and our cleric has 3700 hp, 6800 mp, I check inventory, +2 tt90 magic swords. Whatever, I have paint heals and all I care about is the damage reduction of bb at the boss. They dc'd for a bit and I didn't even notice a heal difference. This brings two thoughts to mind. First, If you want to be valuable as a cleric, make your presence felt with strong heals, otherwise bloodpaint or a mystic can replace you. And second, cleric's complain about constantly being asked to bb at bosses. This is because as some points 50% damage reduction became more important than your heal strenth. I'm guessing its because heal power isn't enough for some clerics.

Second story is I was on my sin, cleric was making squad, we were in a BH metal and had 5/6 spots filled with no barb or bm. I was asked if I could tank, I told them I could but then I saw the cleric had 7x00 mp and a +3 TT99 glaive. I reconsidered and told them I could tank if I had either bell or barb buffs. The cleric spent 5-10 more teles and 5-10 more minutes finding a bm for us. If I could have counted on stronger heals the squad would have been fine but often you need to base your squad setup on what your cleric can handle, so I was glad their unrefined vit build had to WC more to setup the squad to accommodate them.

garrath wrote: »

admittedly my biggest cleric is only level 90 and pure magic build, but have yall honestly ever come across a situation that could be healed that you could not heal?

Many many times. In fact today while duo'ing the second fire boss in warsong. Cleric was L101, pure mag, G16+10 weap, in Regeneraton Aura; and my Sage 4aps +10 sin with base pdef of 5482 (using demon aura, and L10 Vanguard Spirit on top of that), 24 atk levels, Sage SoT, and 16 def levels and STILL needed to spam crabs!

As already mentioned; I'm constantly noticing insufficient heals in Rebirth and Warsong and I refine/ shard much more defensively than most. The clerics I notice this from tend to use either ~L80 weap, morai weapon, or most often the case by far have less than 8k mp (indication of poorly allocated stat points).

my group heal does more hp than anyone but a tank has, and even the biggest tanks I have seen dont have more hp than a stack of ibs can heal several times over.

CHB spammers = fail: 3.5s to channel, 1 to cast. Add reaction time, stun time, and that's the amount of time it takes most to die when they already need a heal. IH continues to heal through stun, and WS makes for a good emergency.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

And you're doing something wrong. Demon paint with lvl 10 barb and bm buffs and 6k hp on my sin and I didn't have trouble tanking Warsong with mediocre clerics (+3-6 tt99 or R8). At 7k I only needed either lvl 10 bell or barb buffs, not both. As long as I'm not one hit my dps will heal almost my entire health in between boss attacks prior to cleric bubble heals. I hardly ever need pots or apos. Can't blame the cleric for every tanking problem when your paint should be doing 75% of the healing.

1) You would be 1 shot with equivalent defenses at that HP.

2) You're leaving out a lot of information, and I'm guessing that much harder hitting daggers are being used at an equal or higher aps during permaspark. I'm sure you're aware that most sage assassins are using G13 daggers and not the R8, G15, etc.

3) Your argument has nothing to do with whether the cleric's heal is sufficient; rather whether the Assassin's BP heal is. For that matter; the assassins gear/ refines and def are far above average on the HT server. The point still stands that the cleric's heals can still be insufficient despite having well above average gear on both healer and tank.

There are some in this thread implying that they can heal as good as any other cleric using vit build, yet I give an example where a high-end aps w/ sage bp isn't even getting sufficient heals. Take away BP, and the above average defense that you might find with the typical random BM; and you can be left with a hopeless situation even with a well equipped pure mag. Anyone telling you they can heal just fine with vit build lacks experience or a concept of reality.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Agree with that. With all the gears we got now if you can't survive without a pure magic cleric you should check your own gears beside blame the cleric.

My gears are way above average; I shouldn't have to pot to keep my wiz alive in Rebirth, my sin alive in Metal, etc when a much lower geared cleric than my toon can do the job of healing.

Or are you referring to sins that avoid aggro, wiz's that don't tank, barbs that are just there for devour, etc?

I did a full warsong last week on my vit cleric using a TT99 weapon, with people that run full warsong really often and they ALL told me that was the FIRST time their charms didn't tick on a full run, they usually run with R8/R9 clerics and say their charm tick as **** with other clerics than me.

You can say as much as you want that vit cleric suck, but it's your opinion, not a fact.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I did a full warsong last week on my vit cleric using a TT99 weapon, with people that run full warsong really often and they ALL told me that was the FIRST time their charms didn't tick on a full run, they usually run with R8/R9 clerics and say their charm tick as **** with other clerics than me.

You can say as much as you want that vit cleric suck, but it's your opinion, not a fact.

I'm sure you had mad skillz you were dishing out while in Regeneration Aura. Sorry, but this post is a good representation of the kind of idiocy used to justify vit build.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

You were in bb, lol.


How is your weaker heals and weaker weapon at all responsable for less charm ticks?

That's squad dynamics and has nothing to do with your build or your weapon.

I wasn't in BB, i'm not a baby FC that know nothing except BB. I was only BB on the boss and they was speaking about clearing to the boss, saying they never had a cleric with who their charm didn't tick at all. So how you explain that? I got luck? No, i know how to play my class that's all.

Nop my ''weaker'' heals and weaker weapon had nothing to do with the less charm tick, it's cause i'm not a moron of metal wizz that absolutely want to DD.

Not only 1 person told me his charm didn't tick, they all told me that and not the charm tick less, didn't tick AT ALL, compare to ALL other runs where their charm was ****.

I did a run last week on my mystic with a cleric pure magic R9 where EVERYONE was dying cause the cleric wasn't healing AT ALL, the cleric was constantly DDing without heal people, pro pure magic cleric with OP weapon.

What is better, a vit cleric that know how to heal or a pure magic playing the metal wizz?

First: Saku, grats on being so good on noticing weaker heals. b:surprised On my barb I don't really ever notice if the cleric has 50 or 100 vit, as long as they get the job done (they usually do). Ofc if you perv someone's gear and check their HP you can guess how much vit they're packing, but I've had pure clerics and non-pure clerics heal me and, tbh, stacked IH is stacked IH, a decent barb with decent defenses can be easily overhealed by a TT90+5 or an Aquadash+5 cleric in most situations, including Warsong and Delta.

The main advantage a pure cleric has over a hybrid when there's a decent tank in squad is they get to attack more, which shouldn't make much of a difference really, since clerics aren't exactly the most powerful DD class out there.

Now, ofc, if the tank is less tanky, the weaker heals become more noticeable. But then you can't blame the cleric for what's the tank's fault, at least partially.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

First: Saku, grats on being so good on noticing weaker heals. b:surprised On my barb I don't really ever notice if the cleric has 50 or 100 vit, as long as they get the job done (they usually do). Ofc if you perv someone's gear and check their HP you can guess how much vit they're packing, but I've had pure clerics and non-pure clerics heal me and, tbh, stacked IH is stacked IH, a decent barb with decent defenses can be easily overhealed by a TT90+5 or an Aquadash+5 cleric in most situations, including Warsong and Delta.

The main advantage a pure cleric has over a hybrid when there's a decent tank in squad is they get to attack more, which shouldn't make much of a difference really, since clerics aren't exactly the most powerful DD class out there.

Now, ofc, if the tank is less tanky, the weaker heals become more noticeable. But then you can't blame the cleric for what's the tank's fault, at least partially.

Eh, Bella, I was actually thinking you wrote Rebirth not Warsong which is why I wrote bb. Don't know where I got that from. Although with the adv Metal boss, bb strength is important since he absorbs 5k heals every 30 seconds. Anyways, stop comparing bad pure clerics and good vit clerics. Player skill isn't an argument for which build is more effective since of course the 10-25% better heals a pure build has can be lossed or made up by a bad pure cleric or a good vit/LA/HA. Compare either a bad vit cleric with a bad pure cleric, or a good vit cleric with a good pure cleric. I'd actually assume the worse a cleric performs the more vit they should add to their build so you can tailor it to player skill but we're arguing builds, not player skill.

Second, quoting "weaker" heals kind of looks stupid. It's not an opinion that having less magic or weaker weapons means you have weaker heals. Its a fact of the game. Its the difference between the builds. That's like quoting the air we "breathe." Or a saying something like G16 claws do more "damage" than TT70s. Its not an opinion, its fact. Whether 15% heals is more useful than 600hp is where the opinion is.

August got my point My point was while other builds are expanding into less defensive and more DD builds, like aps barbs, pure dex sins, 3 vit bms, pure str seekers, every arcane dd using AA nowadays with 3 vitality, and archers DoTing their builds and staying tt99 for the aps rather than Nirvana, G16 or R9. They understand that since they're not statting vit or equipping defensive gear that they are squishier than they should be and they're looking for a cleric with stronger heals to compensate. They focused on DD instead of survivability because they expect their cleric has focused on their heals, not the cleric's own survivability (although I'd argue pure magic is more survivable than vit, too).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

August got my point My point was while other builds are expanding into less defensive and more DD builds, like aps barbs, pure dex sins, 3 vit bms, pure str seekers, every arcane dd using AA nowadays with 3 vitality, and archers DoTing their builds and staying tt99 for the aps rather than Nirvana, G16 or R9. They understand that since they're not statting vit or equipping defensive gear that they are squishier than they should be and they're looking for a cleric with stronger heals to compensate. They focused on DD instead of survivability because they expect their cleric has focused on their heals, not the cleric's own survivability (although I'd argue pure magic is more survivable than vit, too).

So a barb can go APS build it's ok, but cause the APS barb is weaker the cleric need to be pure magic to don't be call fail? Isn't it the barb that should change build?

Everything is APS now and cause of that clerics should change their build? If a barb and a archer want to be APS fine, but they shouldn't ask the cleric to change their build for them, a archer is suppose to be a ranged DD, not a fake bm with fist, they can't be buff with bp for a reason ijs. I see APS barb with 5-6k hp, it's a barb, a barb is a tank, it's not normal that on my cleric (my vit one and pure magic one) i have more hp than a barb.

If a APS want to survive, before ask the cleric to change build they should maybe gear up, i see a lot of APS with 3-4k hp blame the cleric for die while they get one shot, i'm sorry but a pure magic wont be able to save it more than a vit, no heals can save a one shot and BB cut 50% damage nvm the build of the cleric.

You must have meet really bad vit clerics for hate them so much or have really bad gears and blame them for that.

EDIT: I will add that:

Ok i just made some maths.

Cleric A pure magic 1 heal with wellspring surge lvl 10 around: 3.102k hp the heal
Cleric B Same gears/weap 50 points in vit, 1 heal of wellspring lvl10 around: 2.894k hp

OH MY GOSH !!! Fail cleric B, his heals are so MUCH more weak than cleric A pure magic. b:shocked

Cleric A heal 208 hp more than B. WOOT! Wait didn't people said a 500hp more is nothing and cannot save a cleric life? How 208 hp can save someone else life?? b:shocked

Cleric A have 6.165k hp
Cleric B have 6.690k hp

Cleric B have 525hp more than cleric A.

208hp on a heal is it more useful than 525hp more on the cleric?? b:question

If you notice a 208 hp difference on a heal you must have a really low hp.

Pretty sure no one gives a **** about or even notices a cleric's build unless there's something extremely wrong with it (like 100 points in dex or something) so long as they're not dying.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pretty sure everyone but TW clerics restat to pure eventually when you are talking endgame so the argument is 50 vit points helpful or harmful and worth the 8m cost to restat later. I don't see any benefit to weaker heals, less mdef, and 8mil coin loss.

Nope. And tbh, I rather see a decent cleric with 50 base vit than encounter yet another 4k hp fail who dies getting looked at by mobs.

Not everyone is going for ultra endgame gear. And R8 +5 is way enough to heal most stuff.

This thread is so ****ing biased. Who gives a **** on the build. As long as it can do its job. Not all vit clerics fail and not all pure clerics fail. Im pure and i have more pdef and hp than some vit clerics, the difference between the 2 is. Vit has to refine their weapon more where, pure has to refine their gear more. Thats all there is to it. All my gear is +10 and i wear a pdef ring cause i couldnt give a **** about channeling. I only recommend clerics to go pure if they planning on uber end game gear.

But all this saying vit is better than pure or vice versa is bs. Every build has its pro's and con's. I was squishy but you know what im not anymore but i learned to live with my squishiness when i was squishy.

Also assuming that all vit clerics have more hp than pure clerics is a fail assumption. I have 13k hp buffed which is more than some bms and sins even, i have 12k pdef which is more than some sins' pdef even. So honestly the survival is just dependent on what gear the cleric has. (assuming they dont use shields)

So honestly stop saying one build is better than the other cause they all are better in some ways that the other is not.b:surrender

thumbs wrote: »

Who wants a 4k hp or weak DD wiz in caster? If other classes don't get free rides; neither should clerics. I can't be the only one that's tired of other people defending fail clerics either. Clerics are unjustly babied in this game because it started out seeming they were necessary. Now they've become the new veno class full of idiots that fail to perform: Healing sins that don't need it, spamming CHB everywhere, healing during lures, can't survive ****, and can't heal good enough to justify their spot in squad. Normal nirvana squads are faster w/o, Caster is faster w/o (generally). Stop going soft on clerics if you want the class to stay viable.

Because clearly vitality causes people to heal too early, spam CHB, heal during lures, and over heal.


The real fail here? That people keep advocating pure builds as the end all be all. And then get all shocked when a pure build cleric with **** heals and gear pops in and can't survive. It's your fault for giving them bad advice just because it works for you. Instead of taking into account each person's circumstances and going from there. A cleric in TT90 +3 gear should probably be statting vit if they even want a shot of surviving aoes. They then should make sure to thoroughly refine their weapon so the 50 vit or so is made up for. Refining one piece of gear is cheaper than refining four. A cleric in Rank 8+7 gear? They don't need the vit and perhaps should go pure if they are comfortable with it.


And none of that matters if the cleric is **** at their job. And that has got jack **** to do with vit. Vit doesn't make your character play itself. It doesn't make your heals go off without your input. Vit clerics don't automatically suffer from premature rejuvenation or CHB spam. That's a problem with the clerics skill.

thumbs wrote: »

You missed the whole freaking point I made about fail clerics VenusArmani. It's about people going soft on them and overlooking / defending their shortcomings; not what vit causes them to do.



No class should be imposing themselves on a squad repeatedly if they can't survive. If you aren't properly equipped for something; you are being a mooch. Vit build is a moocher's build. The fact that you'd assume people would run things if they couldn't survive just indicates you aren't a responsible player.

Oh yes, i'm not a responsible player because I've noticed that every snake BH has at least one person dragging the rest of the squad down because they can't handle the AOE. They got **** refines, can't afford better, but won't stat vit because they don't want to hold the squad back. As if the instance taking 3 minutes longer is somehow worse than them dying to the aoe and making the run take 10 minutes longer. Because you have to keep resetting the damn boss. Or if you kick the person, have to spend time getting a new person. All because people think that pure is always better no matter the instance, build, refines, weapon, time spent playing the toon, what else the person might be doing, gear, overall knowledge of the class, etc. I'm being realistic here. You can't expect people to stay out of 100 dungeons just because they'd need vit to stay alive. They get to 100 specifically so they can gear up and start earning coin. As long as their charms not ticking, the squad is kept alive, and they survive the aoe. It doesn't matter what you prefer because they've done their job. Everyone is different. There is no reason to name call people because they use their clerics for different purposes than you do.

And Vit is not a mooch build. Do you consider your friends mooches? I didn't miss any point. You're the one that decided to compound the issue of adding vit and being fail, not me. You claimed people were too soft on clerics and vit was one of those things. But it's not. I've already proven that a vit cleric can actually have more m.attack than another cleric who statted defensively or doesn't keep their weapon refined. That build was a glass cannon but it's besides the point. The point is that the main thing that matters is gear. And if someone wants vit or doesn't have their endgame gear yet, or does have their endgame gear but also does TW, then vit might be a very good option for them.