pure magic or some vit?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

In addition to not only did nobody complain about my heals, I was often told I was a good cleric.

Lol, lucky for many of us the bar is set really low by bad cleric's. You know what half your skills are and your gear is within 30 levels of your char? FL invite. Not talking about you, I think the people active in the forums are much less likely to be nubbly, just talking about some of the random squads I've been in.

I play 11 characters, 5 actively, the rest semi actively. Since I have 7 level 100's some of my toons are fed the 660k exp orbs from BHs and will skill levels without ever actually doing anything and i may not play them for months in between. I know, the makings of a hyper nub, right?

Yet when I hopped into FCC at level 87 for the first time on my veno I heard "finally, a veno that knows what they're **** doing" despite me never having been in FCC on my veno and having skipped about 8 levels. Same thing happened when I vana'd. So many FL invites just because I knew the basics. Same thing when I came back to my cleric (I quite at level 77 until I had all my skills maxed and was feeding my genie my exp). When I came back I was hearing how I was the best cleric people had ever seen, despite me not having played my cleric in months and me having problems finding skills and remembering what the icons looked like. Then at 100 I only had about 3.9k hp and TT90 and wanted to farm gear and refines using my sin/bm before I started doing BH 100s. Eventually I gave in and started doing BH100s with my somewhat nubbly (sometimes stripped gear) cleric but I was constantly getting compliments for "not being a hyper noob" which I sort of am.

I'm not saying I'm good, just saying the bar is pretty low for cleric expectations. In the last week I've thought about 5 clerics in squads were dual clienting and just using macro heals in my squad that weren't.

When it comes to vit/pure build, yah I favor pure but neither matters if people don't understand their class. A good vit cleric will out heal a bad pure cleric and a good pure cleric will out survive a bad vit cleric. My opinion is if you have mediocre gear and mediocre skill I don't see how vit helps in PvE other than a comfort placebo effect, but skill is gonna be more important than either build

Allisandre - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

When it comes to vit/pure build, yah I favor pure but neither matters if people don't understand their class. A good vit cleric will out heal a bad pure cleric and a good pure cleric will out survive a bad vit cleric. My opinion is if you have mediocre gear and mediocre skill I don't see how vit helps in PvE other than a comfort placebo effect, but skill is gonna be more important than either build

This exactly.

I know some clerics that are pure, and even decently geared, but they can't heal worth a **** because they play more like a wizard.

Darkette - Sanctuary

I have four clerics on Sanctuary (3 above 80) and a couple more on other servers. All of them are pure magic, and I'd have it no other way. With the exception of herc-equipped venomancers, no other class is as self-sufficient in the early and mid-level game. At comparable level, a well-equipped cleric can EASILY solo all the bosses in BHs 29, 39, 59, Pyro in BH69, Brig and Linus in 79, and Ninetails in BH89.

Putting points to VIT only cripples a cleric's potential; as said in an earlier post, if you're a bad cleric (read: don't react promptly to fluid situations), no amount of VIT will keep you alive.

I think a lot of players (boys and men) dislike clerics because it's not the kind of class where you walk up to a mob and flail away till it dies. Playing a cleric successfully -- solo and in squad -- requires finesse, patience, situational awareness, and a degree of skill. Played poorly, clerics are squishy; contrariwise, when played well clerics may be the toughest class in the game.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Darkette - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think a lot of players (boys and men) dislike clerics because it's not the kind of class where you walk up to a mob and flail away till it dies.

I agree with what you said.

I'm also this type of player, lol. If I'm not taking damage or having to work to avoid damage by stuns/leaps then I don't feel like I'm playing. Ranged killing or kitting isn't for me... except cleric for some reason. I my cleric and I think its because they have more to do than just range dd. They get to seal, debuff, heal, and read situations to react.

In other news, I was explaining to a veno friend who hit 80 and restat from I think 96 vit? to pure and notice their survivability increased. They were scared when their hp dropped so much but hadn't realized how much less damage they'd take from killing faster and from having more magic defense. They'd always hid behind their pets and didn't realize past level 60 many mobs stay ranged if you are a ranged attacker. So even though they gave up 10% of their hp after the restat they gained more than that in killing speed so are almost never getting hit now and their magic defenses mean they're taking 25% of the damage.

Before they'd never have believed more magic=more survivability and more damage. Its been funny listening to them quest in faction.

SxeChik - Archosaur

My cleric does not have some but 180 vits b:laugh 99% of people who have been in squad with me never complain about my healing. I have friends who are pure mag cleric, and they receive positive feedbacks from their squad members as well.

It really comes down to the player's skill and how they gear their char. So just add point in whatever way that works out for you. If you have lot of money, go pure and buy decent HP/def shards. If you're not rich but still want a decent amount of HP, then go vit build.

I am happy with my build because I can tank and pull as well (I know with pure build, you can tank too but would need more decent shards; and I only shard my char with Flawless HP shards). A lot has told me to go play a melee class in an insult way, yet this is my personal preference to tank as a cleric. As long as the cleric keeps everyone in squad alive and not sporadically touching their charms, I call that a good cleric.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

SxeChik - Archosaur wrote: »

My cleric does not have some but 180 vits

Not to insult, but 180 vit is 1800 hp and a little pdef and mdef. For about the same amount of stat points you could go HA, have more pdef and refine for more than 1800 hp

I wish I had taken some videos when I was level 90 of my pure arcane 3.4k hp cleric with flawless cit/garnet mix pulling all the halls in FCC, np. Cleric shields and earthquake on genie, ftw.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not to insult, but 180 vit is 1800 hp and a little pdef and mdef. For about the same amount of stat points you could go HA, have more pdef and refine for more than 1800 hp

I wish I had taken some videos when I was level 90 of my pure arcane 3.4k hp cleric with flawless cit/garnet mix pulling all the halls in FCC, np. Cleric shields and earthquake on genie, ftw.

With a necklace giving maximum hp+5% it's more around 1.9k, but yea I do agree that 180 vit is too much for a cleric, I don't say that a cleric with that much vit cannot do his job, since some HA claim not have trouble, but yea 180 is a lot. xD

SxeChik - Archosaur

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not to insult, but 180 vit is 1800 hp and a little pdef and mdef. For about the same amount of stat points you could go HA, have more pdef and refine for more than 1800 hp

I wish I had taken some videos when I was level 90 of my pure arcane 3.4k hp cleric with flawless cit/garnet mix pulling all the halls in FCC, np. Cleric shields and earthquake on genie, ftw.

That's great to know you could pull fc with 3k4hp and a few genie skills. And your advice bout HA is something to think of. But I like arcane though.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

With a necklace giving maximum hp+5% it's more around 1.9k, but yea I do agree that 180 vit is too much for a cleric, I don't say that a cleric with that much vit cannot do his job, since some HA claim not have trouble, but yea 180 is a lot. xD

I do have the cube neck. And yea, 99% ppl who know my vit points are like b:shocked, it is indeed a lot, but has saved me from many close calls b:laugh

Darkette - Sanctuary

Well, far be it for me to criticize another for their build decisions; I've certainly experimented a lot with some exotic class configurations.

I'll say this, however: I feel immensely more confident having maximum MAG within the context of optimized self-healing potential. It's a confidence born from constantly trying to push the envelope insofar as what a cleric is supposedly capable of doing. And maybe it's from having conditioned myself so thoroughly in rapid application of IH as opposed to Plume Shell -- so much so that I'm not entirely certain I can find Plume Shell on my button bar (said only partially tongue in cheek). It's also born in the realization that my last two clerics -- both above level 80 -- have died only once, when I had to suicide them for their level-49 cultivation quest. Both are pure magic.

But each to their own. b:cute

Eoria - Harshlands

Darkette - Sanctuary wrote: »

And maybe it's from having conditioned myself so thoroughly in rapid application of IH as opposed to Plume Shell -- so much so that I'm not entirely certain I can find Plume Shell on my button bar (said only partially tongue in cheek).

So you don't pvp.

Darkette - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

So you don't pvp.

Not any more. Spinal injury has left me with a progressively worse hand tremor and PvP is now out of the question. Besides, there's only so much you can beat up on others and continue to take enjoyment from it.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Why does PvP automatically = beating up on others? TW is also PvP and PKing around has little to do with winning...

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

All magic !!!

(a concerned PvE barb, can't comment on your pvp ambitions though b:laugh)

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

With all the gears people have if they cannot survive with a hybrid cleric than the cleric is not the problem.

Allisandre - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

With all the gears people have if they cannot survive with a hybrid cleric than the cleric is not the problem.

Too true, the problem is more likely between the keyboard and the chair. While not a cleric, I do rather enjoy the increased survivability of being a VIT Hybrid. The damage missed is simply made up for on refining my weapons.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

haha, no my "problem" is in the wallet, i have TT90+3 gear.

And i have no idea how many vit clerics are around, where i had a problem it was with clerics <lvl 100 and also cheaply geared. But then again it was also in TT, not in whatever tougher places i should find in the future.

tweakz

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

This exactly.

I know some clerics that are pure, and even decently geared, but they can't heal worth a **** because they play more like a wizard.

I probably fall into this category. Why should a cleric that can kill 3x as fast and tank 10x as good be a healer slave to someone that should feel lucky have a squad that doesn't kick them? When over half the toons in squads are typically self sufficient for clearing mobs w/o a cleric, why can't the others play like DDs instead of tanks!?

The real problem with clerics is ~90% of them are chromatic healing beam spammers (which should rarely be used), and can't discern when and when not to heal (stop healing my sin, and then complain because I don't stay with group / heal my barb as it's starting a big pull / heal my veno as I'm genie or pet pulling / Heal my mystic when I've already got falling petals on / etc). There's a handful of clerics I really like, but gotta say that those cleric-less runs are proving to be fast and smooth.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

but gotta say that those cleric-less runs are proving to be fast and smooth.

For Aba, this is the case.

Here's the thing about Aba: She's actually very easy to kill if done correctly. She has an initial very hard physical hit + bleed, 30 second later he starts buffing himself. If you can kill within 30 seconds you never see his buffs. If you're cleric is so stoopid they can't figure out how to walk and have the barb pull into a bb you'll waste about 20 seconds of your 30 second kill time and get into his buff, heal, hard hit cycle and have a decent chance of dieing.

Its much easier to just have 1 more dd and no bb and kill within 30 seconds, or have a cleric that follows the dd's in so as not to waste killing time.


And as always, I support the pure build. It offers more survivability, stronger heals, and opponents die quicker around you. Vit has such a small pdef/hp increase its always been more beneficial to have stronger heals, plus as a caster the bulk of the damage we take is magical and magic gives more defense than vit.

Things go quicker and you'll get better squads if your barb knows your heals are stronger. He'll be more confident in how much he can pull, you'll get done sooner. The better a tanks gear is the more he'll want to pull and the more hp you'll need to replace.

Vit in the build does have its places. TW cleric and clerics below level 90 might want a little vit. But as your gear improves you will want more magic. I'll agree with Bella and say you won't need more magic, but you'll want it to be more efficient and able to do things like heal once, debuff once, and attack once rather than heal 3 times with weaker heals.

You have 6 pieces you're able to refine to get more hp, but only 1 to get more dd. The higher your weapons refine, the more your magic stat points add to it.

ovenusarmanio

In the case of aba, why do you even need BB if the boss is just going to be dead in 30 seconds? I know that I've killed the boss in that time frame, and if we don't and he buffs we all stop dding and move into DD range. It works out well and the cleric stays away from the boss in case something goes wrong. win-win-win. I honestly don't get it. It's not ideal but usually I pay the cleric no real attention unless the boss buffs. ::shrug::

Eoria - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

as a caster the bulk of the damage we take is magical and magic gives more defense than vit.

...have you ever group PVP'd on a cleric? Like, at all? Serious question. 90% of the time, it's either an archer, sin, or barb hitting me. No magical damage whatsoever unless the archer decides to BV->metal combo me.

Also by this logic of us taking more mag damage than phys, obviously we all need to be using mdef orns.

ovenusarmanio

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

...have you ever group PVP'd on a cleric? Like, at all? Serious question. 90% of the time, it's either an archer, sin, or barb hitting me. No magical damage whatsoever unless the archer decides to BV->metal combo me.

Also by this logic of us taking more mag damage than phys, obviously we all need to be using mdef orns.

Not to mention vitality protects against both magic damage and physical damage so it's not like your trading such a huge chunk of it that you are suddenly weak to magic damage. Magic defense is gonna be high on any arcane pure or not.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

...have you ever group PVP'd on a cleric? Like, at all? Serious question. 90% of the time, it's either an archer, sin, or barb hitting me. No magical damage whatsoever unless the archer decides to BV->metal combo me.

Also by this logic of us taking more mag damage than phys, obviously we all need to be using mdef orns.

Read my whole post. I say for group pvp and tw vit is perfectly acceptable. You quote a section of a comment on PvE and then talk about it likes its PvP.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Things go quicker and you'll get better squads if your barb knows your heals are stronger. He'll be more confident in how much he can pull, you'll get done sooner. The better a tanks gear is the more he'll want to pull and the more hp you'll need to replace.

From all the time I play I've never NEVER saw someone ask a pure magic cleric for ANY PVE stuff.

People are so idiots that they ask the cleric the weapon and take the one with the better weapon, they never ask the build.

As much as I think my server is **** for some stuff, your server is 100x more **** if they ask the cleric if they are pure magic or not to take it or not in PVE stuffs.

I've never saw a cleric be refused cause of a hybride/vit/LA/HA build, people on Sanctuary must have freaking fail gears if cannot do PvE with a cleric not pure magic, that's really lame...

Wow can't believe a server suck at the point to cannot do PVE without a pure magic cleric...

Fryvorg - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

From all the time I play I've never NEVER saw someone ask a pure magic cleric for ANY PVE stuff.

As much as I think my server is **** for some stuff, your server is 100x more **** if they ask the cleric if they are pure magic or not to take it or not in PVE stuffs.

On my Cleric I've never been asked my build b:surrender

And to answer that everlasting question: It doesn't really matter if you add some vit or not. Of course, don't exaggerate. 200 vit might be pointless :P

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

From all the time I play I've never NEVER saw someone ask a pure magic cleric for ANY PVE stuff.

People are so idiots that they ask the cleric the weapon and take the one with the better weapon, they never ask the build.

As much as I think my server is **** for some stuff, your server is 100x more **** if they ask the cleric if they are pure magic or not to take it or not in PVE stuffs.

I've never saw a cleric be refused cause of a hybride/vit/LA/HA build, people on Sanctuary must have freaking fail gears if cannot do PvE with a cleric not pure magic, that's really lame...

Wow can't believe a server suck at the point to cannot do PVE without a pure magic cleric...

Its not asking the build, its watching them spam heals on you and your hp bar litterally not moving. Its heal strength differences you notice.

You don't ask someone. You run with them and think "They can't heal worth sht" and then never run with them again. Just like you wouldn't ask a barb his build, you'd just notice he dies easy and has low hp and go "not running with them again," its the same with cleric heal strength. Noticing that a cleric just isn't as effective as other clerics.

Weak cleric is barb pulling the first area of Lunar in 3 pulls, done in 15 minutes. Good cleric is barb doing 1 pull, done in 6 minutes.

I like how you expect every barb to be geared enough to run anything despite the cleric's heal efficieny. I healed a level 100 tt80 gold barb a couple days ago through Seat =/

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its not asking the build, its watching them spam heals on you and your hp bar litterally not moving. Its heal strength differences you notice.

You don't ask someone. You run with them and think "They can't heal worth sht" and then never run with them again. Just like you wouldn't ask a barb his build, you'd just notice he dies easy and has low hp and go "not running with them again," its the same with cleric heal strength. Noticing that a cleric just isn't as effective as other clerics.

Weak cleric is barb pulling the first area of Lunar in 3 pulls, done in 15 minutes. Good cleric is barb doing 1 pull, done in 6 minutes.

I like how you expect every barb to be geared enough to run anything despite the cleric's heal efficieny. I healed a level 100 tt80 gold barb a couple days ago through Seat =/

I healed a barb in abba on my vit cleric, a barb with 6k hp and he didn't die. (and 6k for a barb trust me it's more than fail)

Would you agree with me that the majority of cleric that put points in vit is to get more survivability. (I don't ask what you think about the build, just on the why they do that)

Majority (not all, but a lot) of clerics going pure magic do it to be more powerful DDing and not to have more powerful heals, even if that do it.

Last night during TW, in vent a new cleric in my faction was saying how much good DD he is and say people complain about him not healing and I said yes I remember you from caster you was letting people die, continuing to DD and he answered ''I'm pure magic I'm the best caster DD class, I don't heal''..... and a lot of pure magic have that God's complex of thinking cleric is the best DD if pure magic.

Even a barb admitted in that thread that on IH he don't see the difference cause it's stack.

I've got more compliments on my vit cleric than my pure magic (maybe cause my vit is a female char thought, people are stupid like that). I play both the same way.

I did full GV last night, with a cleric lvl101 that recently removed 100 magic points to put in vit (can't tell you thought if she had some vit before or not), no one died, no one charm tick and the barb was a alt barb with skills lvl 3-4 and with normal gears.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Cleric A pure magic 1 heal with wellspring surge lvl 10 around: 3.102k hp the heal
Cleric B Same gears/weap 50 points in vit, 1 heal of wellspring lvl10 around: 2.894k hp

OH MY GOSH !!! Fail cleric B, his heals are so MUCH more weak than cleric A pure magic. b:shocked

Cleric A heal 208 hp more than B. WOOT! Wait didn't people said a 500hp more is nothing and cannot save a cleric life? How 208 hp can save someone else life?? b:shocked

Cleric A have 6.165k hp
Cleric B have 6.690k hp

Cleric B have 525hp more than cleric A.

208hp on a heal is it more useful than 525hp more on the cleric?? b:question

If you notice a 208hp difference on a heal you must have a really low hp.

^

+ If a sage cleric have 50 vit and use sage IH and a pure magic demon use IH, you won't even notice a difference on the heal cause the sage give a additional 10% hp.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Would you agree with me that the majority of cleric that put points in vit is to get more survivability. (I don't ask what you think about the build, just on the why they do that)

I agree. I'm not arguing that vitality doesn't help increase survivability. You seem to think this is a discussion about can a vit cleric perform or will a pure cleric always die. It's not, and I'll fully agree that a vit cleric can be effective build still, as can a pure cleric. I'm just arguing efficiancy and what is more ideal.

When you have low hp, vit helps. As you refine the amount of hp/def vitality has added becomes negligible and you don't need it anymore so you may as well move it into magic to increase the efficiency of your heals, shields, and attacks (PvE). In 1v1 pvp clerics tend to lack finishing power except for Tempest, and even that requires a large amount of setting up against decently geared targets (debuffing, Array's, Mark of Weakness, sleeps and seals to set this up) so the argument comes up that while a vit cleric may have an edge against a physical opponent defensively they may lack the finishing power to charm jump other opponents. Then you get to mass PvP and heal strength is less important than surviving, purifying, rebuffing, shields, sleeping, controlling... and I fully support a vit cleric there.

So keep throwing out examples of how a skilled vit cleric can heal just as well. Or a well refined vit cleric can heal just as well. Or an r9 barb doesn't need a pure cleric. Or you know a pure cleric that was bad at healing. Or how you recieved a compliment and omg you have vit... I'm not arguing that. I'm saying endgame, pure is the goal as the more effective build for PvE and 1v1.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Majority (not all, but a lot) of clerics going pure magic do it to be more powerful DDing and not to have more powerful heals, even if that do it.

Hmm, I'd disagree here. Most cleric's become cleric's to heal in the first place. The stronger the heal, the more valuable you are. They then get told that cleric's can't dd and get a bit of a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves. Maybe at some point it does turn into magic for more attack, but I'd say all cleric's start out aiming for beastly heals.

I know one specifically who has always wanted to be a dd and only became a cleric because he started this game with a friend and so they did Barb/Cleric combo. From level 1 he was a "dd playing a cleric" rather than a "cleric that DDs". However, his goal is to have heals beastly enough that a single heal fills his tanks hp bar so he can spend more of his time DDing while still having his heals covered.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

+ If a sage cleric have 50 vit and use sage IH and a pure magic demon use IH, you won't even notice a difference on the heal cause the sage give a additional 10% hp.

So are you suggesting sage go vit and demon go pure? Or if a sage was pure and a demon had 50 vit the IH would be 20% stronger and you'd really notice a difference?

Again, I'm not arguing culti, or what a pure/vit cleric can do, or who was complimented for healing, how two different players failed and succeeded. I'm saying that vit loses its benefits as you refine and eventually you have "enough" survivability (hard to believe that mark used to be 5k cleric were endgame) but you can never have heals that are "too powerful". More powerful heals free up your time for doing other things that make clerics noteworthy. As you get more endgame your weapon refines get higher and your magic multiplies even more so it makes a bigger heal difference.

Eoria - Harshlands

I literally notice no difference in heals between a pure mag cleric, my 150 base vit cleric, and a guildie's LA cleric. Heal difference is really only noticeable if they're using like a tt99 wep vs. at least r8 or if they're just a terrible cleric.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm, I'd disagree here. Most cleric's become cleric's to heal in the first place. The stronger the heal, the more valuable you are. They then get told that cleric's can't dd and get a bit of a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves. Maybe at some point it does turn into magic for more attack, but I'd say all cleric's start out aiming for beastly heals.

Seems to be more a server thing, cause on HL I can count on one hand the great clerics and majority of them are not pure magic. Our biggest fail clerics are all pure magic.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

So are you suggesting sage go vit and demon go pure? Or if a sage was pure and a demon had 50 vit the IH would be 20% stronger and you'd really notice a difference?

Not really, but a lot of pure magic I know are demon and really ''agressive'' playing (metal wizz), while many sage are more support and go more for survivability, ofc it's not all, but it's from the people I personally see play in game on my server.

I made a char a while ago on a PVE server and trust me it's totally a other world from PVP server. The play style is totally different. How people think is totally different too.

tweakz

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree. I'm not arguing that vitality doesn't help increase survivability.

I will then: Kill faster = tank less / profit more. Heal slower = die faster. Inadequate healing of tank = you tank and die.

The best aura for my pure mag wiz's survivability (as tank) in Rebirth is neither Health, or Defense, but Attack!

Not very many classes even need a cleric, but for those that do: A good cleric in RB is better than a bad cleric (vit+pve weap) + BM buff to a wiz (I'll take a good cleric w/o bm buff over a bad one with a BM). There have been times when I wondered if my wiz was even getting healed! I experience the same thing playing a Barb on the BH bosses. All these fail clerics are helping to make the class obsolete since Mystics are often more capable, and the runs would be smoother / cheaper with another DD instead of a cleric.

So keep throwing out examples of how a skilled vit cleric can heal just as well. Or a well refined vit cleric can heal just as well. Or an r9 barb doesn't need a pure cleric. Or you know a pure cleric that was bad at healing. Or how you recieved a compliment and omg you have vit... I'm not arguing that. I'm saying endgame, pure is the goal as the more effective build for PvE and 1v1.

In most cases where healing strength is concerned; it's in Regeneration Aura which has nothing to do with their elite skill of spamming Chromatic Healing Beam, and there aren't that many R9 Barbs around anyway.

Hmm, I'd disagree here. Most cleric's become cleric's to heal in the first place.

In the beginning this may have been true, but I *think* that many of the newer ones were made to buff, assist, and resurrect alts. I can't imagine ~9/10 people wanting to make a cleric just to expensively chromaspam their way through BH100s.

The stronger the heal, the more valuable you are. They then get told that cleric's can't dd and get a bit of a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves. Maybe at some point it does turn into magic for more attack, but I'd say all cleric's start out aiming for beastly heals.

I was one of the suckers that fell for the "vit is sufficient" bs for clerics. I also made my cleric mostly for buffs/ res and still have little desire to play it much. Even with a priority on it being there for my own buffs/ res rather than heals; I still hate the weak heals and the lame matk with a passion. When you go cheap on your own equips using vit to replace them; you make the rest of your squad have to pull your weight.

I'm saying that vit loses its benefits as you refine and eventually you have "enough" survivability (hard to believe that mark used to be 5k cleric were endgame) but you can never have heals that are "too powerful".

^^ My cleric now has G16 +12 weapon, is pure, and I'd still love stronger heals. Equips have ALWAYS been sufficient for survivability for that cleric. Vit shouldn't replace equips; it's irresponsible in PvE unless you're a Barb. Faster killing/ better healing / cheaper operation affords you those better equips. Vit just ends up costing you.