pure magic or some vit?

ovenusarmanio

I'm saying endgame, pure is the goal as the more effective build for PvE and 1v1.

It depends on what the cleric is doing, who they are doing it with, their cultivation, etc. You can't just ignore those things to act like pure is better. If you have to ignore the actual situations a cleric would find themselves in, human nature, etc then what is the point? This statement makes it seem like pure or vit is the sole or even most important determining factor of heal strength and it's really not. That's gear. And the vast majority of clerics are not going to be endgame characters and suggesting they all stat like they are going to be anyway is how we end up with these one shot clerics in bh100s. And once you have do have endgame, a bit of vit or a bit more magic is not going to make a whole hella a lot of difference in pve. I've never been in squad with a full rank 9, well refined cleric, pure or otherwise and thought to myself "dang if only we had a cleric with better heals, I could do more!" and I do have tanky rank 9 friends who can do things exceedingly quickly and who have never complained if the cleric has a good weapon. I've certainly seen them complain about the skill of the cleric but not the heals. If we're talking not endgame gearwise but level wise than once again, all those factors you seem to be dismissing come into play. Most people who do 1v1 pvp also enjoy group PK which atm is actually a lot more rewarding than 1v1. So is it really more efficient to stat your endgame cleric for 1v1 pvp when you can take that same cleric, do everything in group PK and make money now? In fact, I would bet that the number of clerics that only want to do 1v1 (and anyone who is well geared enough to do this efficiently will have no trouble with pve content) and do not want to stat for group PK as well is rather limited. And should not be the subset that determines what advice to give to the average cleric. Most clerics are alts nowadays anyway. Gear goals, budget, how often they play and what they want to do should be taken into account when giving advice to new clerics. Genuinely new players who can't survive should be asked what they are doing wrong to be dying so often it's even an issue and if they aren't doing anything wrong, maybe some vit will help. Players not even at that level should be just told the strengths and weaknesses of both and go from there.

tweakz

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I've never been in squad with a full rank 9, well refined cleric, pure or otherwise and thought to myself "dang if only we had a cleric with better heals, I could do more!" and I do have tanky rank 9 friends who can do things exceedingly quickly and who have never complained if the cleric has a good weapon. I've certainly seen them complain about the skill of the cleric but not the heals. If we're talking not endgame gearwise but level wise than once again, all those factors you seem to be dismissing come into play. Most people who do 1v1 pvp also enjoy group PK which atm is actually a lot more rewarding than 1v1. So is it really more efficient to stat your endgame cleric for 1v1 pvp when you can take that same cleric, do everything in group PK and make money now?

Of all classes; clerics are probably the most protected by others from scrutiny. I've had my character kicked a few times without warning for constructively criticizing the cleric. That doesn't mean that disdain for them doesn't exist (others have dropped squad after witnessing it).

Many who are critical of my cleric can't even explain their reason for it. A good example is in Rebirth at spawn. Just today someone told my cleric to put bb where they were (after it was already set). -I ignored them. I've asked in the past why I should put it right at the mouth of the spawn area and got either no answer or idiotic answers like; 'it's faster', or 'so I'm not out of BB'. -Both answers make no sense to someone with common sense, but there are multiple good reasons to set it at the base of the funnel (less chance of being slept, mobs are funneled closer together, archers that spawn behind don't hit as hard when close, more time for mobs to be aggroed, easier to notice mobs that spawn behind by people who aren't otherwise aware when they do, cleric and wiz/seeker (if they know where to set up) work synergistically on ranged mobs beyond the mouth (ranged mobs bounce aggro back and forth off healer and seeker / wiz pulling them back into AoE saving resources and time), and Barbs can build chi / control the spawning mobs easier).

-That said; it's obvious that most give little thought to playing the game. They have little concept of heal strengths or what clerics need in gear to survive. They don't notice the tanks using expel, crabs, etc and only see that they are protected.

There's an invisible effect: Other clerics get chosen over yours, or the squad maker decides to run cleric-less.

Making money in group PvP? Are you referring to anything other than Nation Wars which is a mere 2 hours 2 days a week at a time that most of the east coast and other countries are sleeping? If so; NW's profitability is dropping like a stone in water if you haven't noticed. Nirvana which it's made obsolete was never the absolute best way to make coin outside of being a merchant. I attribute my survival in NW to my matk. Being able to kill most players in a few hits limits their ability to gang up and sometimes even respond. -A short sighted person neglects this aspect.

We've seen the argument for PvP in the past, and some regular PvPrs have come forward to say that even for PvP; pure is good.

Here's a chart that shows how piddly the HP per vit for mages is:

http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Class_Statistics

Despite Barbs having much more HP per vit (multiplied on in True Form), and a skill that bases dmg on HP, and new bosses that base their bleed atk on the tank's HP; we still find many not so vit-ish barbs.

Vit builds in all but barbs should be obscure builds; not commonplace. Vit should not be a replacement for equips in PvE.

ovenusarmanio

tweakz wrote: »

Of all classes; clerics are probably the most protected by others from scrutiny. I've had my character kicked a few times without warning for constructively criticizing the cleric. That doesn't mean that disdain for them doesn't exist (others have dropped squad after witnessing it).

Oh please, clerics and tanks take more abuse than anyone. I don't know how many times on my sin I've seen people command the cleric around like a slave, no please or anything. And I have never seen someone rage quit because a veno had to be taught the instance and didn't know what to do for example. When a DD messes up, half the time the squad doesn't even pay it any attention. How many venos out there do not bramble or amp and get no flack for it? How many sins out there only spark+autoattack and nothing is said in squad. How many BMs don't get called out for HF'ing at random intervals even when there is another BM in squad they should be coordinating with? Hell, I've seen sins just stealth through the instance and wait at the boss. And people said NOTHING. Meanwhile some other DD pulls aggro they couldn't handle after all and then demands an immediate rez and calls the cleric fail if they focus on the tank who has taken control of the DD's mobs + the mobs they were going to pull initially. And the whole time the DD is on the squad ground going "omg rez, fail cleric!" nobody said a word. I"ve seen that situation far more often than ppl sticking up for the cleric.

tweakz wrote: »

Many who are critical of my cleric can't even explain their reason for it.

Exactly, clerics not only get criticized but do not even get constructive criticism. And a lot of times the advice is stupid to the point many clerics get annoyed by any advice period, even when they are doing something plainly wrong.

tweakz wrote: »

-That said; it's obvious that most give little thought to playing the game. They have little concept of heal strengths or what clerics need in gear to survive. They don't notice the tanks using expel, crabs, etc and only see that they are protected.

Like clerics don't also use their genies, crabs, etc. Everyone uses those things and a cleric shouldn't have to play only the way you would like them to play, and stat for a style that isn't in their ability to play so that you don't have to waste a crab meat.

tweakz wrote: »

There's an invisible effect: Other clerics get chosen over yours, or the squad maker decides to run cleric-less.

Back when I played my cleric, I never had a problem getting a squad within a snap. I know many vit clerics that also have no problems getting squads. In addition many people added me as friends after runs, rather than getting blacklisted. Most people aren't blacklisting every vit cleric they see, they are going by whether or not the cleric is any good at their class. Anyone else I'd never want to squad with anyway. Because they are clearly morons. And the animation for taking a hp pot is obvious. So is genie heals. Good clerics can tell when you needed to pot or not, and being a bad clerics exist with every build.

tweakz wrote: »

Making money in group PvP? Are you referring to anything other than Nation Wars which is a mere 2 hours 2 days a week at a time that most of the east coast and other countries are sleeping? If so; NW's profitability is dropping like a stone in water if you haven't noticed. Nirvana which it's made obsolete was never the absolute best way to make coin outside of being a merchant. I attribute my survival in NW to my matk. Being able to kill most players in a few hits limits their ability to gang up and sometimes even respond. -A short sighted person neglects this aspect.

Will always be more profitable than 1v1 pvp will ever be, and clerics that are well refined machines in either one will be capable of handling any and all pve content.

tweakz wrote: »

We've seen the argument for PvP in the past, and some regular PvPrs have come forward to say that even for PvP; pure is good.

Here's a chart that shows how piddly the HP per vit for mages is:

http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Class_Statistics

Despite Barbs having much more HP per vit (multiplied on in True Form), and a skill that bases dmg on HP, and new bosses that base their bleed atk on the tank's HP; we still find many not so vit-ish barbs.

Vit builds in all but barbs should be obscure builds; not commonplace. Vit should not be a replacement for equips in PvE.

I don't think anyone argues that pure cannot handle pvp. People are saying it's a matter of preference. You are the only one here that thinks just because people want some vit in their build it must mean they think pure are incapable. Everyone I see arguing for having some vit in your build seem to believe it's a matter of choice. They are arguing in favor or vit, not anti-pure. You're the one arguing anti-vit. And I'm sorry that not everyone has the time or money to spring from instantly with good equips like you apparently did. Everyone has stages of gear, everyone has different budgets, everyone has different time and money they can put into it. Which is why whether or not to add vit varies by person to person.

tweakz

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Oh please, clerics and tanks take more abuse than anyone. I don't know how many times on my sin I've seen people command the cleric around like a slave, no please or anything. And I have never seen someone rage quit because a veno had to be taught the instance and didn't know what to do for example.

When's the last time you saw a cleric criticized openly for wildly and irresponsibly spamming CHB, healing during a pull attempt, or having insufficient heals. You'll see more often the cleric chastising people for not protecting them from themselves.

When a DD messes up, half the time the squad doesn't even pay it any attention.

BMs do often get criticized in RB, BH Aba, and SoT; for playing like derpaps sins. Venos were often criticized for not amping. Barbs are even getting criticized for not devouring and their comeback is? - Trying to save MP or don't have enough chi! I've seen many archers told to barrage.

How many venos out there do not bramble or amp and get no flack for it?

Even though it's not as noticeable since there is not much of a direct effect; they do get flack for it. A veno however when called out will amp and bramble and often apologize while clerics just tend to have a stupid come back or a squad leader that will kick you or tell you to shut up.

And the whole time the DD is on the squad ground going "omg rez, fail cleric!" nobody said a word. I"ve seen that situation far more often than ppl sticking up for the cleric.

I do see this situation often, though not as harsh words towards cleric. I really wish they'd just let the failure stay dead until the boss is dead because most often it's that idiot that keeps hitting the BH Aba boss when it's buffed.

Exactly, clerics not only get criticized but do not even get constructive criticism. And a lot of times the advice is stupid to the point many clerics get annoyed by any advice period, even when they are doing something plainly wrong.

They get criticism, but how often for weak heals, healing during pulls, or chromaspamming? The criticism they do often get is inappropriate, or misguidance (like where to put regeneration aura).

Like clerics don't also use their genies, crabs, etc. Everyone uses those things and a cleric shouldn't have to play only the way you would like them to play, and stat for a style that isn't in their ability to play so that you don't have to waste a crab meat.

If I need to use Crab meat; there's no point in using cleric. Like a said; another dd would be better. Some people resolve to use a Seeker + Sin combo in RB because of the common weak healing cleric. Because of the weak healing cleric; it takes longer to make a squad suitable for them. They could also use a Mystic, but then why would they need a cleric? They might like a particular style as you say, but they're making themselves obsolete like the Barbarians of old who likewise were skimpy on equips.

Back when I played my cleric, I never had a problem getting a squad within a snap. I know many vit clerics that also have no problems getting squads. In addition many people added me as friends after runs, rather than getting blacklisted. Most people aren't blacklisting every vit cleric they see, they are going by whether or not the cleric is any good at their class.

This goes back to capability. In Regeneration Aura; what does being good at your class have to do with it? There are many reasons many classes will befriend clerics like res, buffs, and free healing slave. That doesn't mean that there aren't capable wiz's that turn away from RB squads, or Barbs that won't reject a squad with a weak cleric.

Good clerics can tell when you needed to pot or not, and being a bad clerics exist with every build.

When you're in Regeneration Aura like for RB or WS: your being good or bad is mostly to do with your matk, though the cleric that drops bb after every group can be very annoying.

Will always be more profitable than 1v1 pvp will ever be, and clerics that are well refined machines in either one will be capable of handling any and all pve content.

I'm not the only one here that expressed desire for stronger heals even beyond pure mag / +12. Furthermore, most of my argument is about the overly common use of vit in lieu of equips to the point that people who are extremely well equipped have to carry them.

You are the only one here that thinks just because people want some vit in their build it must mean they think pure are incapable.

No; my argument is how people use and recommend vit in lieu of equips, and argue that vit's are every bit as capable. They furthermore ignore operating and time costs.

And I'm sorry that not everyone has the time or money to spring from instantly with good equips like you apparently did.

Spring from instantly? If you wanna talk about spring, lets talk about all the vit builds that spring from 1-100 almost instantly then weasel their way into BH100 with TT90 or poorer equips to get the rewards to feed their alts. They focused on leveling rather than profitable gains, or they don't really give a **** about making their buff/res slave be able to pull it's own weight.

Everyone has stages of gear, everyone has different budgets, everyone has different time and money they can put into it. Which is why whether or not to add vit varies by person to person.

Power leveling irresponsibly, or mooching for another toon is the main cause of those poor budgets.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Forum drinking game again, anyone? b:cute

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Forum drinking game again, anyone? b:cute

As long as it's coffee... b:victory

Eoria - Harshlands

Take a shot every time someone pontificates on and on about PVE ****.

Take a shot every time tweakz posts.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

tweakz wrote: »

When's the last time you saw a cleric criticized openly for wildly and irresponsibly spamming CHB, healing during a pull attempt, or having insufficient heals. You'll see more often the cleric chastising people for not protecting them from themselves.

I criticized a cleric in my faction last TW cause he was in VD. -.-

(and some people told me it's ok for a cleric to be in VD in TW....)

I personally do criticize clerics constantly. If i see a cleric do something dumb I'm not scare to tell him, but generally theses day the first criticize I need to make is: ''Can you do your freaking job and heal'', than after there's the part of: ''Dude it's not a AOE boss why you CHB??''....

A fail veno, bm, sin, wizz, archer, mystic as DD, seeker and psy are fail, but the squad will manage to do it, but a fail cleric can make the squad fail, it's why cleric are more criticize.

tweakz

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

A fail veno, bm, sin, wizz, archer, mystic as DD, seeker and psy are fail, but the squad will manage to do it, but a fail cleric can make the squad fail, it's why cleric are more criticize.

Lately it's not dependent on a cleric. If a cleric is criticized; it's for idiot reasons like where they drop regeneration aura. It's taboo to criticize a cleric for poor heals or chroma spamming. The chroma spammer's response: 'no one die yet did they?' (I often solo clear instances before inviting squad w/o cleric and very rarely die). Their response to a ~9k HP 17k pdef wiz is that it's their fault for not enough def when the wiz has ~10x the investment in equips!

A fail veno, bm, sin, wiz, archer, mystic etc can be as much responsible for a fail squad as a cleric. I've done clericless Nirvana, caster nirvana, wave 3, BH SoT, BH Aba, BH metal, etc. A cleric isn't needed: They either pull their weight or they don't. What good are they if they cost me more pots and time than another DD?

When you currently come across the cleric with a TT99 ~+1 glaive or PvE weapon, and ~8k MP; you should seriously question their motive. G15 upgrades are obtainable in ~4 hours of work. -It's been this way for months! The upgrade molds to G16 sell for under 50k. How many excuses can you come up with for being poorly equipped and poorly statted?

In the past; vit advocates have shown comparisons of equips and stats and failed to justify wasting points on vit. They used crappy examples like a pure mag using melee rings which made no sense other than to dissuade people from an efficient pure mag build if they were ignorant.

People in general won't blame themselves. Even though that wiz has 10x the amount invested in equips than the cleric; it's the wiz's fault for dying! After-all people on the forum said that vit is just fine for cleric!

If weapon makes more of a difference in heals; consider the cost of refines and imbues! Your weapon is a single item, while your armor is multiples of that! Notice that no one is posting their vit builds comparing to pure builds. That's because as mentioned by someone else (not just me); pure is more efficient.

If someone said they have some vit so they can better tank BH SoT, or BH Aba; I'd have some degree of understanding (since the boss's bleed is based on HP). What I abhor is the ones that imply their survivability otherwise is based on their vit.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I criticized a cleric in my faction last TW cause he was in VD. -.-

My cleric is way better as DD than my wiz in UVD (1-1). If they're in VD: they have limited healing even on themselves (not just you). In TW; I'd rather have a strong cleric DD than heal some 2 hit fail. -Refer back to my wiz preferring atk aura for survival over heal/def aura.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

tweakz wrote: »

My cleric is way better as DD than my wiz in UVD (1-1). If they're in VD: they have limited healing even on themselves (not just you). In TW; I'd rather have a strong cleric DD than heal some 2 hit fail. -Refer back to my wiz preferring atk aura for survival over heal/def aura.

... wow now people say it's ok for a cleric to be in VD in TW and DD....


Eoria I think we do something wrong.... we should stop keep squad alive and go pew pew in VD in TW. ^-^

tweakz

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

... wow now people say it's ok for a cleric to be in VD in TW and DD....


Eoria I think we do something wrong.... we should stop keep squad alive and go pew pew in VD in TW. ^-^

As if pew pew has nothing to do with keeping squad live. *sigh*

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

tweakz wrote: »

As if pew pew has nothing to do with keeping squad live. *sigh*

Ofc it does tweakz, next TW I tell my squad to stay behind me while I pew pew everyone. Wow best life saver ever, how did I didn't think to do it before... b:pleased

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

... wow now people say it's ok for a cleric to be in VD in TW and DD....


Eoria I think we do something wrong.... we should stop keep squad alive and go pew pew in VD in TW. ^-^

I am often in UVD mode in TW on my cleric, saying that a cleric can only heal and buff in TW is so narrow minded. I don't think you understand just how good it is to be able to take away high priority DDs or barbs ability to heal/charm tick with your absorbing arrays and then using mark of weakness to increase the damage dealt by yourself and others on the target.

Fryvorg - Sanctuary

tweakz, have you ever thought of non-Clerics also being not so super-geared? Normally, low-refined arcane classes can't survive fb 99 mobs on their own if they only heal themselves by pots, for example.
With a good Cleric, you can do bigger pulls, thus, finish your run faster. Of course, if all your squad mates are +10, you won't really need a healer for PvE. But when does that happen?

@VD: It's okay to use it if your squad can afford it. During TW, you should make sure that there are enough healing Clerics around, before you go in VD. If not, keep your time being violet to the min (like absorbing aura + absorbing array on the barb + mark of weakness + Magical Shackle => turn back). However, I've chosen to be in normal mode all the time, as my faction lacked of regular TW'ing Clerics.
And maybe it's also my nature that I simply can't DD if I see someone is losing health ^^

My 2 cents.

tweakz

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

It depends on what the cleric is doing, who they are doing it with, their cultivation, etc. You can't just ignore those things to act like pure is better. If you have to ignore the actual situations a cleric would find themselves in, human nature, etc then what is the point? This statement makes it seem like pure or vit is the sole or even most important determining factor of heal strength and it's really not. That's gear.

The point of this argument is to spare clerics from making the mistake -yes mistake of statting vit. It's true that equips make a huge difference. In the past we've shown in this endless debate that pure with comparably priced equips and comparable matk has BETTER survivability. That is to say that all the pots, charm ticks, etc wasted by insufficient MP/ MP recovery was a waste. The reset notes a waste.

And the vast majority of clerics are not going to be endgame characters and suggesting they all stat like they are going to be anyway is how we end up with these one shot clerics in bh100s.

Most of those one shot clerics are vit clerics! They aren't using vit for any benefit other than to get their BH100 done with minimal equips which costs other players.

And once you have do have endgame, a bit of vit or a bit more magic is not going to make a whole hella a lot of difference in pve.

Going from G15+10 to G16+12 didn't make a hella lot of difference, but it did make a difference. Even if there were no difference at all: you're still paying farm more for MP as a vit.

I've certainly seen them complain about the skill of the cleric but not the heals.

Again; skill vs ability. What skill does a cleric in Regeneration Aura have? -It's then that my mages aren't getting enough healing in Warsong, Rebirth, and my Barb in SoT, or Aba.

Most people who do 1v1 pvp also enjoy group PK which atm is actually a lot more rewarding than 1v1. So is it really more efficient to stat your endgame cleric for 1v1 pvp when you can take that same cleric, do everything in group PK and make money now?

If you're going to repeatedly bring up profit from pvp; please explain in detail how you are making money from it. I made ~11m from my last NW, I made more than that from my last Lunar run. Lunar profitability is going up; NW is going down.

Most clerics are alts nowadays anyway.

A point I've made already. -Alt made for buffs/res with minimal equips to get through BH100 (if a good squad carries them).

Gear goals, budget, how often they play and what they want to do should be taken into account when giving advice to new clerics.

Instructing them on how to be a burden on their squad, and how to lose profits shouldn't be considered good advice.

Genuinely new players who can't survive should be asked what they are doing wrong to be dying so often it's even an issue and if they aren't doing anything wrong, maybe some vit will help.

Sky Demon's Pearl is a good example here. Take a Cleric that is lvl 87 and who doesn't have one but opts for something far inferior instead. You suggest that they stat vit to survive, while I would suggest wth is their problem? SDP may cost 1m or so, but you can sell it for about what you paid when it's time to upgrade so there is no real cost! They even show up in AH refined at about the same price as the mold! The real cost is the wasted MP pots, and the excess time needed to use vit build.

Players not even at that level should be just told the strengths and weaknesses of both and go from there. [/COLOR]

What strength does vit build offer unless you're tanking BH aba or sot?

Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote:

tweakz, have you ever thought of non-Clerics also being not so super-geared? Normally, low-refined arcane classes can't survive fb 99 mobs on their own if they only heal themselves by pots, for example.

Did you not read about how they should act like DDs and stop trying to tank everything the cleric would be better off soloing?

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote:

I am often in UVD mode in TW on my cleric, saying that a cleric can only heal and buff in TW is so narrow minded. I don't think you understand just how good it is to be able to take away high priority DDs or barbs ability to heal/charm tick with your absorbing arrays and then using mark of weakness to increase the damage dealt by yourself and others on the target.

ovenusarmanio

tweakz wrote: »

The point of this argument is to spare clerics from making the mistake -yes mistake of statting vit. It's true that equips make a huge difference. In the past we've shown in this endless debate that pure with comparably priced equips and comparable matk has BETTER survivability. That is to say that all the pots, charm ticks, etc wasted by insufficient MP/ MP recovery was a waste. The reset notes a waste.

A vit cleric in the exact same gear will always have more HP. A pure in the exact same gear will have more matack. If not in the exact same gear, then gear difference makes the bigger difference.

tweakz wrote: »

Most of those one shot clerics are vit clerics! They aren't using vit for any benefit other than to get their BH100 done with minimal equips which costs other players.

No, most of them are pure. I've seen far more pure clerics die in one shot than vit. Even in crappy equips some of them have so much HP that they are NOT a one shot. They don't as great heals but they do survive longer. It is the entire point. Not sure how you've run into a cleric that has more hp but is some how one shot when someone with less hp taking the same hit was not. Heals mean nothing if you already dead.

tweakz wrote: »

Going from G15+10 to G16+12 didn't make a hella lot of difference, but it did make a difference. Even if there were no difference at all: you're still paying farm more for MP as a vit.

You're still paying to farm more m.atack as a pure. Endgame gear has limited options and both would be heading towards pretty much similar gear.

tweakz wrote: »

Again; skill vs ability. What skill does a cleric in Regeneration Aura have? -It's then that my mages aren't getting enough healing in Warsong, Rebirth, and my Barb in SoT, or Aba.

Regeneration Aura? Someone posted a build on this very thread of a person with 20 vitality versus someone with pure build. The difference between the BB heals was 2075 hp to 2007 hp every five seconds. You're telling me that it was a mistake for them to trade 200hp for 68 points healed every 5 seconds? You're telling me your wizard can "feel" the difference between those two BBs? If they can, then perhaps you should not be taking aggro because 68 points is next to nothing.

tweakz wrote: »

If you're going to repeatedly bring up profit from pvp; please explain in detail how you are making money from it. I made ~11m from my last NW, I made more than that from my last Lunar run. Lunar profitability is going up; NW is going down.

You gained money by 1v1 pvping in Lunar? No? Okay then. Tell me how you're gaining more money from 1v1 pvp than you are from NW. I would really love to know the secret to that.

tweakz wrote: »

A point I've made already. -Alt made for buffs/res with minimal equips to get through BH100 (if a good squad carries them).


Instructing them on how to be a burden on their squad, and how to lose profits shouldn't be considered good advice.


Sky Demon's Pearl is a good example here. Take a Cleric that is lvl 87 and who doesn't have one but opts for something far inferior instead. You suggest that they stat vit to survive, while I would suggest wth is their problem? SDP may cost 1m or so, but you can sell it for about what you paid when it's time to upgrade so there is no real cost! They even show up in AH refined at about the same price as the mold! The real cost is the wasted MP pots, and the excess time needed to use vit build.

One again you're trying to act as though vit builds can only ever wear bad equips. Please, please tell me how putting in vit automatically forces me to wear bad equips? I had no idea vitality locked you into it! It does not. Your point only reinforces my point. Vit is a matter of preference. Gear is the real determining factor when looking at heal strength. A person in poor gear is not going to be able to heal as well as someone in good gear regardless of their build. On the low end of the gear spectrum though, vitality is helps make up for the defense difference in regards to aoes and random heal aggro against physical mobs. Not because it's superior but because it has more HP. On the high end of the spectrum it doesn't matter what your build is anymore. You're still going to be overpowered for all things pve.

tweakz wrote: »

What strength does vit build offer unless you're tanking BH aba or sot?

That's been stated ad nauseum in this thread and in this forum. It's the never ending topic that just will not die.

thumbs

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

A vit cleric in the exact same gear will always have more HP. A pure in the exact same gear will have more matack. If not in the exact same gear, then gear difference makes the bigger difference.

Compare same matk and HP between the two at same cost with non scrub equips: get back -seriously. To my knowledge NO ONE has shown that vit is a smart choice by doing so. Even if they were even: operating costs of vit build is silly to opt for.

No, most of them are pure. I've seen far more pure clerics die in one shot than vit.

not the case for me

Even in crappy equips some of them have so much HP that they are NOT a one shot. They don't as great heals but they do survive longer.

Insufficient heals can result in faster death; do you not realize this?

It is the entire point. Not sure how you've run into a cleric that has more hp but is some how one shot when someone with less hp taking the same hit was not. Heals mean nothing if you already dead.

Vit means nothing if all the coin you think you're saving by going so is wasted on MP, time wasted that you couldn't keep a tank alive, cost of restat note, time wasted on solo quests. If the cleric has trouble surviving it's because they're trying to be a scrub, or they're just misinformed by people on this forum trying to justify a costly build.

You're still paying to farm more m.atack as a pure. Endgame gear has limited options and both would be heading towards pretty much similar gear.

The vit builds that aren't duped aren't concerned about gear. I must have run Caster Nirvana with the same scrub at ~4.5k hp (not a cleric btw), and R8 weapon over a hundred times. Their HP never changed, their weapon never changed. -Common story. They met the bottom line of what was commonly being called for and stayed there despite making tons of coin and or mats they could have used to upgrade. Incidentally I was informed that they weren't honest in Caster either (stealing drops). This is what the vit build is really about for anyone that's objectively looked at it.

Regeneration Aura? Someone posted a build on this very thread of a person with 20 vitality versus someone with pure build. The difference between the BB heals was 2075 hp to 2007 hp every five seconds. You're telling me that it was a mistake for them to trade 200hp for 68 points healed every 5 seconds? You're telling me your wizard can "feel" the difference between those two BBs? If they can, then perhaps you should not be taking aggro because 68 points is next to nothing.

200hp is next to nothing. If the cleric isn't healing the wizard fully; that's 272 *more* HP lost every 20secs. Also who in their right mind would put a mere 20 points in vit with the cost of restatting?

One again you're trying to act as though vit builds can only ever wear bad equips.

no: I clearly made the point that at the same matk/ hp or survivability with non scrub equips that pure mag was cheaper. No one has shown this to not be the case to my knowledge.

Please, please tell me how putting in vit automatically forces me to wear bad equips?

intelligent conversation or do you really want to go this route?

Vit is a matter of preference.

Being a scrub is a matter of preference. Being a crackhead is a matter of preference.

Gear is the real determining factor when looking at heal strength.

Gear multiplies on mag making pure + ultimate equips clearly better for heals. Gear is also the real determining factor on survivability. Stop arguing over nonsensical **** and show how vit build actually saves you coin. To my knowledge NO ONE has done this, and that's the ONLY thing you can do to justify it!

That's been stated ad nauseum in this thread and in this forum. It's the never ending topic that just will not die.

Stop beating a dead horse and actually address the issue! In non scrub gears at same cost; which is better?

No more ridiculous argumentation, no more trolling; show that vit build at same price in no scrub equips is cheaper or gtfo.

Crimson_Moon - Momaganon

My cleric always was pure magic build and did quite fine in most instances, dying only when squad messed up badly. Now it has r8+5 gear with immaculate citrines and still can do its job as solo healer in any instance and survive them (can't solo pavilion in WS though, not "pro" enough, I guess).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

thumbs wrote: »

To my knowledge NO ONE has shown that vit is a smart choice by doing so.

Meh, they've shown you can trade 10% heals for about 10% hp. Whether that is smart or not... I'd say 10% more hp is nice but not smarter than 10% more magic power.

There are two perspectives on this trade:
A. You can never have enough hp, but you can have substantial enough heals.
B. You can never have too strong a heal, but you can have enough vit.

When you have 15k hp pure magic clerics walking around I think that cleric has enough hp. But even with 550+ magic that cleric will still have a hard time taking down barbs, bms, and casters in pvp. 50 magic is another 50% more weapon damage, which is 2.5 times the worth of level 10 metal mastery and applies to physical damage. Early game 50 vit might make a difference, but late game an extra +1100 damage from a +10 weapon is quite handy.

I also consider myself support and want to give my squad the best heals possible. Even if that means its only 10% better than a vit cleric. I expect my barbs to have the hp to tank, my dd's to have statted for damage output, and myself to have statted for heals.

Also, hp is only a part of a cleric's survival tools. Seals to keep mobs away, killing before they reach you, self buffing for defense bonuses, sleeping, and most importantly shields. Magic strength can help with most of those.

So even though we're arguing over an unimportant amount of heals vs an unnoticeable amount of hp, I'd still argue that there is a point to more magic but there isn't a point to 500 hp when you're talking level 80+.

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver

thumbs wrote: »

Compare same matk and HP between the two at same cost with non scrub equips: get back -seriously. To my knowledge NO ONE has shown that vit is a smart choice by doing so. Even if they were even: operating costs of vit build is silly to opt for.

Hmmm. Being able to survive a blow seems like a wise decision to me. I've stated many times that a dead cleric heals no one. A cleric that can survive due to having enough hp to do so is a cleric that I'd rather have, than a cleric that cannot take any sort of aggro attack from anything at all. The operatiing cost of vit build isn't bad either. That's a difference of playstyle. It's fairly well known on this forums that I'm partially vit, at 20 stats vit in it. Now those extra points are the difference between life and death. Literally, a cleric with 1 hp left after a big hit can survive to heal a squad, themselves, and regain control over a situation must faster than a cleric with 0 hp left. Because all the magic attack in the world amounts to nothing if you're dead on the floor.

not the case for me

Very odd. Considering that vit is the very stat that grants that passive cushion to take that additional damage. I won't try to tell you what you've seen, but in my own experience, a cleric with more hp can survive a blow a lot better than one with less. Lol. Perhaps the difference actually lay in the sharding, the gear, and the refines...that or a lower skill leveled player compared to a cleric with greater skill.

Insufficient heals can result in faster death; do you not realize this?

Insufficient hp can result in an even faster death than that; something to also be greatly considered.

Vit means nothing if all the coin you think you're saving by going so is wasted on MP, time wasted that you couldn't keep a tank alive, cost of restat note, time wasted on solo quests. If the cleric has trouble surviving it's because they're trying to be a scrub, or they're just misinformed by people on this forum trying to justify a costly build.

MP: Solved by herbs...a cheap mp food. Also, even though I have vit statted, I have over 10k mp, and almost all of my skills are sage. You're going to run into some mp issues regardless...whether at low level, mid level, or high level.

Time wasted keeping a tank alive: If you put no magic, or very little magic in an arcane class, this may be an issue. Thankfully, most people still stat enough magic to get the job done. Considering that I've seen LA clerics that have run through instances brilliantly...and that's with dex statted, there is no reason that a LA cleric cannot do it with Vit statted. Also, with my vit statted, I have no issue keeping tanks alive. Fact in point, I'm often called to assist in a dungeon...even if I am a one shot in that area due to my lower gear, refines, and shards...TT90 armored, TT99 green weapon, immaculate garnet and citrine shards, and refined to +3, and +4. (Can't get into nation wars often due to having other priorities in life.) ...people will still call upon this old vitality cleric because I know how to get the job done. I've outlived better geared clerics, clerics with more hp, and clerics with less. The point I'm making is that the skill level can easily make the difference for a lot of things, and can compensate for lack of other things. For example, I'm a AA purish/vit cleric that does the job well. One of my friends was a LA cleric that did the job equally well. His moveset was somewhat different from my own, and when he went AA, he had to really readjust because he kept dying more. SmashNHeal, (If you don't mind me using you in this example... b:victory ..) is a HA cleric with a build so different that most people would see it as impractical. Yet Smash is more than capable of healing a squad. I am more than capable of healing a squad, and my LA friend is more than capable of healing a squad.) If we went and swapped clerics with one another, I think we'd mostly die. Lol....due to the major change that comes with our different stats, skills, and moveset. That said, vit doesn't stop you from healing a squad. Being dead does though.

Cost of restat note: Cheap when you compare it to some other endgame things, and a restat note is OPTIONAL. That depends upon the person and their preference.

Time spent doing solo quests?: Some people like to perform solo to test their ability, or because they simply choose to do so. If I don't want to perform solo, I'll squad. If I want to perform solo, then its my right to do so. That has nothing to do with anything vit or pure. The only thing that I can think of is damage done, and if the player is happy with their build, then that's what I recommend. If a player can run around, create a Polearm cleric that heals with a pataka to switch out with, and can do their job solo and in squad, then I don't care. That person has a different playstyle. You can recommend something be changed, but to call someone a scrub due to how they want to stat THEIR cleric, and how they want to play THEIR cleric isn't right. We're not all uniformed clerics. One of the beautiful aspects about this game is the ability to use different gear types, and play how we choose to...with the gear that we choose to. Choosing something different from what another likes doesn't make one a scrub. It makes one a different person with a different playstyle.

Trouble surviving: I can't survive Emp. He one shots me. Belial does as well. If I'm not careful in nirvy, I'll get hit for 5k, and standing at 4383 hp without barb buff = Dead SerenityCNB. Funny how I'll tell people this, and they'll still ask me to come. Funny how I was the cleric that got through the run while better geared clerics with more hp got beat so bad they left their team. Funny how some of them were statted pure, and funny how this undergeared vit cleric got through. A person must know the capabilities and limits of their character. That's a part of skill. Knowing what you can handle, and if a task is too grand, then telling your team so that another strategy or option may be put in place. I tell people that I cannot survive Emp or Belial, they get a second cleric...yet still want me to come. I tell people that I'll be a one shot if I'm caught in range of certain attacks. They'll tell me that they trust me enough to take the risk. I tell people that I'm lagging severely. I've been told that they know that I know what I'm doing, and that they'd rather run with me lag and all. I have vit statted My gear is not the best. My refines suck, but its skill that makes the difference...not how one is statted.

And the build isn't a costly one. Being pure demands that you have better shards and or refines to account for the passive hp bonus that statting some vit allows. It's all on how you use it.


The vit builds that aren't duped aren't concerned about gear. I must have run Caster Nirvana with the same scrub at ~4.5k hp (not a cleric btw), and R8 weapon over a hundred times. Their HP never changed, their weapon never changed. -Common story. They met the bottom line of what was commonly being called for and stayed there despite making tons of coin and or mats they could have used to upgrade. Incidentally I was informed that they weren't honest in Caster either (stealing drops). This is what the vit build is really about for anyone that's objectively looked at it.

O.o What does that have to do with anything? They could have been pure or vit. Lets see...

Vit build and pure build both have the option to not upgrade gear. They both have the option to not enhance hp. They met the minimal requirement and still got invites. They made tons of coin, and used their profit how they wanted to. Regarding how honest they were...that's off subject, and has nothing to do with vit build or pure build.
Saying that this is what vit build is about is....I can't even put it into words. It's something to not even be considered...


200hp is next to nothing. If the cleric isn't healing the wizard fully; that's 272 *more* HP lost every 20secs. Also who in their right mind would put a mere 20 points in vit with the cost of restatting?

200 hp is next to nothing...but that cleric with 200 hp remaining from a big hit that's healing for their max of 2007 is faring far better than that cleric with that cleric with 0 hp remaining from a big hit...that's healing from a total of 0 hp out of their max capability of 2075. Not to mention, if you use your skills correctly, you can compensate for the extra points of healing power lost. Sage IH for example heals 10% more. Demon SOR comes with a nice pdef buff...same one that sage vanguard gets. Demon and sage skill usage help greatly along the lines.

And I'll tell you someone that has 20 vit statted, even with the cost of resttating. Myself. I'm running around here, and taking full advantage of that mere 200 points that I've got as a passive cushion. I'm dealing good damage with my matt, and keeping people alive with my heals My build works for me, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

I also want to make a point on the skill usage of Regeneration Aura, as you challenged that it had no skill requirement before. The skill usage of it, is knowing when to plant it, and where to plant it...as with any skill. It's also having an idea of when a point of using it will arise, so that you can ensure that you have enough chi when the time comes. For example. You're not going to use Regeneration Bubble on Pole. The reason is that he debuffs, and must be purified. Same thing is true of Fragrance. You will need to use it on Holeen however....or several of the bosses in Brim. This is because of their attack power, and the fact that Holeen is granted aps after a certain amount of time. Using BB on large pulls is wise, and knowing when to run behind the tank, follow that pull, and set up BB in the right spot is skill. Knowing what to do for reverse pulls is skill. Ensuring that you have enough chi, mp, and mp restoring items is proper preperation,...which I also count as a skill. Being ready to have ready your BB in case in breaks...as is the case in wave 3 of Delta is skill also. So even a static move like BB is far more complex than it looks. Knowing its range is also skill as well....and knowing that you can handle a blow if you are hit is in the skill department. I didn't intend to continue commenting on BB, but I will also point out that knowing when you can't survive a blow...even with BB on, due to say... a stronger shorter range AOE, like some bosses have, and setting up your BB outside of what is commonly a AA, and sometimes LA killzone area is skill too. Just some more things to consider for that skill.

no: I clearly made the point that at the same matk/ hp or survivability with non scrub equips that pure mag was cheaper. No one has shown this to not be the case to my knowledge.

If both players are equally geared, then I don't see what the problem is. Yes. A vit cleric will have more hp, and yes a pure cleric will have more m/att. The biggest extra cost then is that a vit cleric may want to restat to pure....but wait....we have to reverse that to make it equal. A pure cleric....may want to restat to vit to suit their playstyle better. These are things to be considered, and nothing is wrong with that.

intelligent conversation or do you really want to go this route?

I'll go this route...with intelligent conversation as well. Vit doesn't force me to wear bad gear. I can wear any gear of my level. I can wear R8 if I so choose, and if I choose to stat one single solitary point more into strength, then I can wear R9. I have vitality in my build, and can wear whatever Arcane armor (What my build, and what a pure build) are designed to wear.)...and I've always been able to do it on level as well. So please tell me how it is...(short of not reaching the actual stated requirements of stats on the actual gear) that my cleric with vitality should not have been able to utilize the appropriate gear at the level that she did...on level at that.

Being a scrub is a matter of preference. Being a crackhead is a matter of preference.

Playing how you want to is a matter of preference. Not adjusting or actually adjusting your stats or skills to suit your playstyle is a matter of preference.

Gear multiplies on mag making pure + ultimate equips clearly better for heals. Gear is also the real determining factor on survivability. Stop arguing over nonsensical **** and show how vit build actually saves you coin. To my knowledge NO ONE has done this, and that's the ONLY thing you can do to justify it!

If you can afford ultimate gear, you can afford a restat scroll if you choose to get one. That cost becomes a non factor. At that point, you can adjust your gear to compensate for your playstyle, and even then if you choose to have and keep a small cushion, thats your decision. If I have R9 third cast, +12 refines, and Icebournes sharded...with 20 vit or not, I'm still going to hit like a tank. If you hit me for 12,000 damage, and I have 11,900 hp, I am dead. If you hit me for 12,000 damage and I have 12,100 hp, I'm alive, and that period of time can make all the difference. That's enough time for me to AD, crab meat, guardian protection, WOP, and heal.

Stop beating a dead horse and actually address the issue! In non scrub gears at same cost; which is better?

What the player choose for themselves.

No more ridiculous argumentation, no more trolling; show that vit build at same price in no scrub equips is cheaper or gtfo.

The argument isn't about price. It's about preference...and even the price is affected if a pure build doesn't suit a person's playstyle...or vice versa...so it all evens out in the end.

It's not about style. It's about you. You'll learn that more as you continue to play. In this case, that style is how a person chooses to utilize their stats, and use them how they prefer. That's something to keep in mind before saying that everyone is a moochbag, trying to argue, or is just trolling.

b:victory

Desdi - Sanctuary

It's important for the Cleric to be skilled, react fast and think fast for any given situation and have knowledge of the mechanics of their skills; how they work.
However, it's just as important to know your Cleric's capabilities; what it can and cannot handle as SerenityCNB pointed out.

The last one is something some Clerics tend to ignore and try to get in squads for their benefit but end up being a burden in the end. For example, prior getting my full G16 Nirvana gear, my Cleric was averagely geared as my Venomancer had r8 and couldn't share everything. I refused to solo heal at bosses such as Colluseast, Steelation etc. simply because I knew I may not be able to handle it. A dead Cleric can't heal a squad.

With that said, I believe adding Vit. was a viable choice back in the days. Mid levels have a lot of bosses with strong AOE for the gear available. It was probably a must for Clerics involved in PvP but I have little knowledge for that.

Myself, I statted 30Vit on my Cleric and went along with it for a long time especially before the BHs were introduced, I had to do a lot of soloing and handle things that the extra 300HP did make a difference.

When it comes to endgame though, with the new gear available and being so easy to acquire via NW recently, it's not hard to gear up to allow your Cleric to go Pure Mag so there are not many reasons to add Vit. or follow a Vit. build.

All in all though, I don't really care what build or gear the Cleric has as long as they are able to keep my squad alive. I support the Pure Mag build but I won't blame a Cleric if they stat some Vit. as long as they don'g go overboard with it.

Also, bad Clerics or poor geared Clerics have nothing to do with their build. Both of them will die or be 1-shots so there's no point in arguing.

Eoria - Harshlands

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Take a shot every time someone pontificates on and on about PVE ****.

Take a shot every time tweakz posts.

Well, I think I'm quite drunk by now.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's important for the Cleric to be skilled, react fast and think fast for any given situation and have knowledge of the mechanics of their skills; how they work.
However, it's just as important to know your Cleric's capabilities; what it can and cannot handle as SerenityCNB pointed out.

The last one is something some Clerics tend to ignore and try to get in squads for their benefit but end up being a burden in the end. For example, prior getting my full G16 Nirvana gear, my Cleric was averagely geared as my Venomancer had r8 and couldn't share everything. I refused to solo heal at bosses such as Colluseast, Steelation etc. simply because I knew I may not be able to handle it. A dead Cleric can't heal a squad.

With that said, I believe adding Vit. was a viable choice back in the days. Mid levels have a lot of bosses with strong AOE for the gear available. It was probably a must for Clerics involved in PvP but I have little knowledge for that.

Myself, I statted 30Vit on my Cleric and went along with it for a long time especially before the BHs were introduced, I had to do a lot of soloing and handle things that the extra 300HP did make a difference.

When it comes to endgame though, with the new gear available and being so easy to acquire via NW recently, it's not hard to gear up to allow your Cleric to go Pure Mag so there are not many reasons to add Vit. or follow a Vit. build.

All in all though, I don't really care what build or gear the Cleric has as long as they are able to keep my squad alive. I support the Pure Mag build but I won't blame a Cleric if they stat some Vit. as long as they don'g go overboard with it.

Also, bad Clerics or poor geared Clerics have nothing to do with their build. Both of them will die or be 1-shots so there's no point in arguing.

Some forums have " " tabs or "best answer" tabs that boost a post out of the murky depths of the 17th or 18th page and put it on the first page for a quick answer. We wonder why people avoid the search forum and post the same thread over and over again, its because of threads like this with different point of views. Most of us have similar points of view and at this stage we're just getting too specific arguing over weapons, refine amounts, and is 3 base vit too little? 30? 50?

Desdi's response would get my +1 or best answer bump.

I think most of us agree, if you can do it pure then go pure, if you feel vit is better go vit but don't go overboard. Yet we get so specific. I usually respect and find SerenityCNB's answers helpful but when I see a two page guide 17 pagess in it falls under the "I give up:tldr, you win" category, no offense. Tweaks will continue to argue 5 vit is too much, restat to 3 vit. BeLLa will continue to argue if you have any less than 75 vit and sage build you will die from the aoes in Bh39, even at level 103, then pontificate on armor and how "this one time... *player-skill based story about how a vit build cleric succeeded and a pure died that has nothing to do with statting*". And Eoria will quote themselves, laugh at their own jokes, and "something something somethin pvp stats something something something carebear server".

Its amazing how threads can deteriorate and off subject in here.

Xainou - Sanctuary

I like clerics that heal. Clerics that don't spam CHB all the damn time and clerics that don't fall over dead from the first aoe. How you achieve that isn't my business. And if you have 200 vit, as long as you heal enough, cool with me.

That being said, my cleric has 65 vit. She was my very first char I started in 2009. That vit has helped me lots. My mystic however is younger and pure magic. Sure, she used to be squishier but also healed a lot. But as I'm getting to the point where I'm heading for full G16, seriously, who cares? I can't talk about PvP but for PvE, who gives a damn. lol Even with that not too expensive gear, you'll be OP enough to heal anything.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Stuff

Hi b:bye

There are good clerics and bad clerics irrespective of builds - end discussion

Christona - Raging Tide

This thread is still going? I was like on page 12... like a few weeks ago...

Vit verse pure is just like sage verse demon... they both have their strong points and weak points.. I tell any person that asks me about any build (assin, cleric, veno, wizzie, bm) that vit is nicer to have in lower levels and read this part carefully, even twice if you have to, THAT in lower levels your not going to refine your weapon to +5 or any of your gear for that matter.. u might got +2 on weapon if that.. or any of your armor.. So yes, i support having vit in any build for any class in lower levels they extra hp does help and does make a difference at times. Infact, today i was talking to a guildie about her new veno.. (just made it) i did my normal speech about each of the many builds venos have.. AA hybrid, AA pure, AA Vit, LA, HA.. so on.. i told her about my veno, which use to have 100 vit.. Yes 100 vit (now she has 80 at 100, slowly restating it out, as i get her better gear) In my lower lvls i loved my vit, even in FC's i still got aggro and my vit saved my life many a time.. (+5 aquadash XD )

Personally, i beleive that vit is more useful in lower levels than in higher ones. At 100, pure is very viable since you are getting your end game gear and getting it refined up to +5 (atelast) u can afford to have the pure magic.. then since refining made up for your hp. My cleric is now pure, and frankly.. i wish i had a way to get all my stats to 3 exccept magic... If i cant heal a barbs hp in one demon SOR i feel like a fail miserable excuse for a cleric.. (even if they have 40k hp.. doesn't matter i still feel horrible) I have played cleric for a few years now, i have been in countless squads, talked ot countless other clerics, read basically every guide on clerics ther is on this forums.. And i fully support vit in lower levels.. I say cap it by lvl 70and get ur 54 str and start putting all your points into magic. Thats what i do for all of my magic based toons..
My firm belief is: cleric are healers.. thats OUR reason for exsisting.. to heal to be unthanked and unrecongized for how much effort we put in it... and how well *assuming we do it well* we heal our squads. But i think i truly am a cleric at heart. On my 7x mystic.. i tend to make the cleric in squad start to DD because my natural instincts are to heal. This has happened countless times.. Do people notice, not really.. i mean yeah they notice the cleric isn't heal them that a mystic is.. BUT they are getting healed..
Once i have gone pure, i tend to like it alot more.. My mystic is pure magic, my sin is pure dex, my archer is the hated pure sage bow build.. My veno is the only one of my toons that i havent gone pure on.. Why? cuz i like having over 6k hp unbuffed on her... i feel awesome when i have more hp than the sin, seeker, or bm in squad.. XD it happens alot anymore.. XD

Back to this stupid debate over vit or pure.. why not stop it right here.. and say the same thing about culti paths.. Agree to disagree.. its play style and how u use ur skills.. (like i rarely see barbs use beastial rage on magic pulls in fc ... ijs.. 2k magic sheild is worth 20 mana..) Vit has its ups and downs.. pure does too... just learn to use ur cleric the best.. and stat it accordingly, if that means having 150 vit so be it, or if that is like me with 3 vit and an ungodly amount of magic so be it... or if its 65 vit.. let it be.. See what you need in your cleric and make it happen ppl.. we are the backbone of the squad.. we gotta know what to do..

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear

Adding vit is for cheap toons and tanking barbs only. A properly geared cleric should rely on refines for hp and garnets (or physical belt and necklace) to boost phys. defense. Gearing/sharding towards defense levels is even better but a bit more expensive.

Cody_tylor - Sanctuary

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Adding vit is for cheap toons and tanking barbs only. A properly geared cleric should rely on refines for hp and garnets (or physical belt and necklace) to boost phys. defense. Gearing/sharding towards defense levels is even better but a bit more expensive.

No, adding pure mag is for cheap toons back in the day, and what good is a minor HP bonus if you can get one-two shotted by physical attacks anyway? Without good overall defense, that HP per vit means nothing. Besides, pure magic clerics were more wanted back in the day than now, although I never really noticed the difference at all (maybe it was because I was playing barb by that time). Clerics are supposed to guard their HP, which a lot of them are not doing anyway. Now, since the gear available is so broken, clerics could go HA (which is the worst choice by far but now does not even matter), LA, vit, etc and still heal like a pure magic cleric with a TT99 glaive.

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear

Cody_tylor - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, adding pure mag is for cheap toons back in the day, and what good is a minor HP bonus if you can get one-two shotted by physical attacks anyway? Without good overall defense, that HP per vit means nothing. Besides, pure magic clerics were more wanted back in the day than now, although I never really noticed the difference at all (maybe it was because I was playing barb by that time). Clerics are supposed to guard their HP, which a lot of them are not doing anyway. Now, since the gear available is so broken, clerics could go HA (which is the worst choice by far but now does not even matter), LA, vit, etc and still heal like a pure magic cleric with a TT99 glaive.

You don't think some vit will prevent an archer from critting 20k+ on you, do you? BMs and sins will also kill you just the same.

Concerning HA it helps a ton with melee classes (and that's very relevant considering their popularity) but then Wizards and Mystics will cause you nightmares.

Xainou - Sanctuary

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't think some vit will prevent an archer from critting 20k+ on you, do you? BMs and sins will also kill you just the same.

And being pure magic will? Cmon, having vit doesn't mean heaving crappy gears. And once you're properly geared up to be a comptetitor in PK, noone will give a damn if you got vit or not.