pure magic or some vit?

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

~7.5% more survivability from 50 points of vit.

You have to die an awful lot to come up with such a high number. I feel bad for the people you squad with that have you as a sucky dd, healer, and survivor.

thumbs wrote: »

You have to die an awful lot to come up with such a high number. I feel bad for the people you squad with that have you as a sucky dd, healer, and survivor.

I feel bad that you don't have any friends willing to invite you to a squad because you do 6% less damage.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Forget all the trolls in this thread don't go pure and don't stat vit. Restat 200+ points into strength along with a few into dex and go HA cleric, it's what all the cool kids do b:kiss

pro xD b:laughb:laugh

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

me: "Hmm, you have about 70 vit?"
them: "72 vit, got a problem with that?"
me: "Nah. Just was noticing a difference in heal strength so perved the gear."
them: "Vitality doesn't make me a bad cleric. My heals are just as strong as a pure magic clerics."
me: "Well, slightly weaker than a pure cleric with the same weapon, but that's what weapon refines are for "
them: "OMG you a***ole. Find another cleric then. *QQmoar ragequit*
me: ....?

Yah. Simple observations and pwi dramatic over reactions.

You usually have very good insights saku and I respect you for that. But.. just imo, that conversation did make you sound like an a**hole.

Remember chatboxes do not send through tone of voice. So yeah.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Eh, probably. Everyone is so sensitive they take everything defensively. It wasn't an attack, just a comment, but they took it as one. And it's happened a few times.

I asked because I like to know what I'm working with in my squad and I like to guess peoples stats and gear from what I'm seeing. Kind of a personal test. The more I do it the better I get a feel for what a class/build/player can do and what they should be able to do. But in commenting on peoples gear I normally have to put the kid gloves on and act like I'm walking on egg shells because people get so sensitive about how they statted. I didn't mean it offensively and it really was their choice to take it as a personal assault or to take it as an honest question. They chose to feel insulted.

Anyways, if you go pure, you're gonna need about +8 average refines before you stop hearing "you're so squishy." If you go vit build you'll need about +7, lol. If you go vit build you'll probably have people commenting on your weapon refines more or lack of mp or heal strength. It's just how it is.

It's not really "putting on kid gloves," it's called using tact. When you talk down to them like they couldn't possibly know that they need to refine their weapon or that their heals are so weak, of course people are going to be offended. Even if that wasn't your intention, there is no tone of voice over the internet. And the above is one way it could easily be taken or interpreted. Don't assume they don't know about refines, don't bring up how much better pure builds heal. It's something that most players are well aware of and they don't need the commentary. If you wanna talk about the vit, how about asking them how much they had and the going on to tell them how good you are at guessing.


Eg

Hmm, you have about 70 vit?

72 vit, got a problem with that?

Nah, I'm just really good at guessing. Nice gear, are you working on x?

Nah, I think i'm gonna go Y

Oh, nice. I like the blank from y. Hey can you do *insert whatever you want them to do here*

or

Yes, i'm saving up for x now.

Cool. I like x. Hey can you do *insert whatever you want them to do here.*

IN other words, you can talk about vit and gear all you want. But treat the other person with respect. Don't assume they don't know things. Don't compare how weak they are compared to others. Nobody needs that comment and it's kinda rude. I mean if someone asked you how they looked in a pair of jeans, you wouldn't mention how much better someone else looks in them would you?


eg

friend 1:Hey how do I look in these jeans!

friend 2: Mila Kunis looks better in them.

friend 1: ......

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I so would.

I'm honest. Not patronizing (which I found your version, slightly). If someone asks how much vit my barb has in the build because I'm a claw barb and I say 65, then tells me I'd have more hp if I was pure vit, I wouldn't get offended. That's just a fact. I might argue that killing faster increases survivability, or the ability to farm faster means I can refine sooner and get my hp up, but I would not argue that 65 vit is equal to 200 vit. For the same reason, hearing a cleric say "vit builds heal just as well as pure builds" makes me want to correct them, debate them, and at least hear their reasons for thinking so.

Me pointing out that I could notice a heal difference is my way of giving player feedback in a squad. Vit clerics seem to think people don't notice a heal difference, but we usually do. Asking their vit amount is my way of being tactful and round-about rather than just saying "you're heals are weaker than normal, you must have about 70 vit?" Then I dismiss it and give them a way out by saying its no big deal since it can be made up with weapon refines.

But most try to argue and say vit builds heal just as strong as pure builds, which is axiomatically false. Sure it can be made up with weapon refines, channeling, or play style, but saying that there is no give-and-take when picking vit over magic is false.

Usually when I'm playing PWI I'm also skyping, so most my rude comments and frustrations are voiced in the call but I keep a candy-sweet tone with my squad and am respectful and nice. Even while my call-mates are urging me to kick or shame those that probably deserve it.

I'm glad you found my version patronizing; because that's how what you're saying is coming off. Which is why I think it comes off as a bit offensive, even though you seem to have good intentions. Perhaps you don't see it because you're so close to it, and because you're already making a concerted effort to be nicer. But the two examples are not so different. It's a fact that supermodels take better pictures than most women. They look so good in photographs that they can literally make a living off of it. But that doesn't mean it's something you need to point out if someone shows you pictures of their vacation. Or if a girl asks you how she looks in her outfit. There really isn't a reason to tell her friend is better looking in the same outfit, even if it's true. It's the same principle in squads. If someone is keeping your charm from being ticked and the run is going decently fast and safe, who cares if the pure cleric could heal more?

Why do you need to make the comparison in the first place? Who does it help? How does it help the run go smoother? Are you stating a fact or rubbing something negative into someone's face? It's not like the person can just leave the instance and reset then and there. So why not focus on things they can do, like asking for seals or sage/demon skills.

Who has to ask? That vit comes from somewhere and that somewhere should have been magic. If the cleric is 100+ and has a 7000-8500 MP pool; you have a good idea they wasted; and how much. I'll often be direct and tell them their heals are weak. Don't really care if they get pissy. Chroma spamming weak healing clerics are a dime a dozen.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

It's funny how i'm vit cleric, my weapon is +4 and people prefer me to R9 pure magic cleric in squad, i must be freaking pro... b:pleased

You have to ignore variables here:

1) You're more likely to get positive feedback than negative (the r9 may hear more positive than you in this regard).

2) Everyone has their own preference. Those 1-3 hit fails that can't distinguish weak heals, that can't discern efficiency, and think that a cleric's place is being their female dog are of course going to prefer a pocket cleric as opposed to one that doesn't waste their time pandering.

3) There are many reasons to prefer that aren't based on ability or performance.

When it comes to keeping the average tank healed on Snakefist; which would you honestly prefer in BB?

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

When i'm on a other character then cleric, i personally prefer someone that know play his cleric more than someone who have a ''perfect'' build but don't know how use it.

You're adding factors that don't exist. We're assuming its the same person playing either a vit or a pure cleric. We'd all prefer the cleric know what they're doing and how to heal. That has nothing to do with what build they've chosen.

I've already said my two cents that I think clerics that don't know what they're doing, how to use shields or seals, or how to stay alive should go with a vit build so they can at least provide some heals rather than dieing. Most the time their heals will still be sufficient and who cares if on the rare occasion their squad has to pot a little bit.

Cleric's that do know what they're doing can make efficient use of weaker heals, but they can also stay alive without that added vit.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

and no one on all these people never told me that they prefer when i'm on my pure magic than vit. (and when i go in a random squad no one ask me my build before, during or after the thing)

You asked why I would question a person on how much vit is in their build and its pretty much for this reason. People are afraid to give feedback and get offended when they do recieve it. I was bished out for suggest a heavy vit cleric not also use the the G12 Morai weapon. All I'm doing by asking about the amount of vit is nonchalantly pointing out I noticed a difference between heal strength and allowing them to give feedback on if it was a good trade or if they regret it or if it was an accident altogether.

Another reason I might mention it because after about 3 minutes in an instance I've seen a little of what they can do and their reaction time and I'm gauging how suicidal I can be by also getting a feel of their gear. With a vit cleric I'm going to lean toward smaller pulls, typically. Asking is better than assuming, trying a larger pull, and squad wiping.

Even though you've never heard feedback doesn't mean that people aren't criticizing (positively or negatively) about how you're healing or how you're built.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

i can tell you that even if my heals are not as strong on my vit cleric, my survivability is way much more better on my vit cleric.

I actually recommended vit to a factionmate building a cleric tonight. He wanted strong heals and was going 4 magic 1 str (for the pdef...) so I corrected him 4.5 magic/.5 str for the pure build. Then he told me it was gonna be a tw cleric and that started a similar conversation about survivability. I suggest 50-100 vit endgame, since a tw cleric has different duties than a pvp or pve cleric. People in tw expect to have their charms *****, expect to pot, use def charms, genies, etc... A cleric in tw is much more useful rebuffing as often as possible, sealing who they can, shielding squadmates in moments of vulnerability, purifying, rezzing to keep people near the action, and throwing on the occasional 15 second IH to supplement everything else squadmates are doing to stay alive.

In a tw situation healing is a small portion of what a cleric needs to do but the only thing that requires good magic damage, everything else just requires being alive.

Is TW really an argument for vit build?

TW is limited to how many days a week? The average TW lasts how long?

Unless that person is cash shopping and never does anything other than TW/PK; I doubt it's sound advice. 50vit gets you ~500 HP and so does a couple refines via faster and much more efficient productivity in PvE.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

In case you didn't understand i said many times in different thread that someone that is good will be able to do the same job on both build so i have no idea why you telling that to me.

You also said "i can't do the same job on both which mean keep my squad alive" and were promoting the vit build as for the more skilled player since they can still make use and compensate for weaker heals. I was just being more specific and saying that if the player is skilled the pure build is favored, if they are unskilled the vit build is favored, but both will work.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I might be wrong, but i'm probably sure that i'm not the one who ask you why you ask people their build...

You're right. It was Venus and I having that conversation. I blame you for using her forum picture... Oh wait, I am too. I got confused there. b:chuckle

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I have no idea why you tell me that, i didn't said i don't have feedback on how i play my cleric.

I quoted you in my earlier post saying no one tells you if they prefer one build over the other or even asks about your build. But again, I thought I was talking to Venus and was defending why I comment and question the amount of vit in a cleric's build when squaded with them. And that is to gain info myself, and to give them feedback as well.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

No idea again why you told me that since my post wasn't for you and was directly for tweakz since he said that all vit cleric suck and are fail.

Didn't realize I was in your email and these were private messages (I thought they were forums open to other's responses) so I responded, but I also helped your case. I would favor a pure build for pve and a vit build for tw for the reasons listed above. For 1v1 I'd probably still favor pure since without finishing power the best you could hope for is a stalemate since you'll be able to take more damage but you may have a hard time dealing enough to actually kill your opponent. Although a few new Morai skills aid us in being able to bypass charms.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

You also said "i can't do the same job on both which mean keep my squad alive" and were promoting the vit build as for the more skilled player since they can still make use and compensate for weaker heals. I was just being more specific and saying that if the player is skilled the pure build is favored, if they are unskilled the vit build is favored, but both will work.

My bad that was a typo that was suppose to say ''i can do the same ...'', unfortunately i'm the queen of typo. xD

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're right. It was Venus and I having that conversation. I blame you for using her forum picture... Oh wait, I am too. I got confused there. b:chuckle

Yea i thought that might be that cause we have the same forum avatar.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I quoted you in my earlier post saying no one tells you if they prefer one build over the other or even asks about your build. But again, I thought I was talking to Venus and was defending why I comment and question the amount of vit in a cleric's build when squaded with them. And that is to gain info myself, and to give them feedback as well.

Ok. xD

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Didn't realize I was in your email and these were private messages (I thought they were forums open to other's responses) so I responded, but I also helped your case. I would favor a pure build for pve and a vit build for tw for the reasons listed above. For 1v1 I'd probably still favor pure since without finishing power the best you could hope for is a stalemate since you'll be able to take more damage but you may have a hard time dealing enough to actually kill your opponent. Although a few new Morai skills aid us in being able to bypass charms.

My post wasn't private, if i wanted to speak in private with him i would pm him, but you replied quoting me like you tried to convince me vit doesn't suck, while i don't think it suck, so i didn't see the point of telling me something i already know, plus you admit yourself that half of what you said wasn't for me, but for Venu, but you used my quote saying something to someone else.

thumbs wrote: »

In the two common cases where weak heals are most noticeable / critical (Rebirth and BH Warsong): I fail to see how skill comes into play. I have yet to see a Cleric do anything other than Regeneration Aura (with the exception of maybe adding expel) there. You'd have to be incredibly poorly and irresponsibly equipped for vit to matter in both cases.

I fail to see how responsibly equipped clerics with skills worthy of boasting about would have a hard time staying alive with a mere ~500 less HP.

I speak about TW and you bring PvE, i said that for only PvE i would recommand a pure magic build (in majority of the cases).

garrath wrote: »

admittedly my biggest cleric is only level 90 and pure magic build, but have yall honestly ever come across a situation that could be healed that you could not heal?

my group heal does more hp than anyone but a tank has, and even the biggest tanks I have seen dont have more hp than a stack of ibs can heal several times over.

I only have 3 vit naked atm, but I dont see how having 60 would make much difference in the heals as the biggest percentage added from your magic attack is only 30.

not trying to argue here really just looking to see if there is some benefit I dont see from having 450 naked magic versus 400

At lvl 90 you might don't see the difference cause majority of people you heal have probably around around 5k hp and less, except barb, but at lvl 100+ many people have 10-15-20k+ hp and a not pure magic might not be able to one shot fully heal the HP, but that doesn't mean the cleric cannot do a good job.

thumbs wrote: »

Chromatic Healing Beam is way over used, and not a good basis for such a decision.

It look pretty though, it's like if i cast a rainbow on my squad.

Wanna be in my squad thumbs? ♥

thumbs wrote: »

Chromatic Healing Beam is way over used, and not a good basis for such a decision.

The only smart thing you said in this thread.

I cringe at the amount of fail clerics who act like CHB is the end all be all when it comes to heals. I mean I don't give a rats *** what you do if I'm on the barb, but if I start a barrage in abba/seat/3-3/whatever or I end up tanking Nirvana on my archer and you sit there channeling CHB instead of stacking me with IH ima call you a failure. God forbid you toss me sage vanguard coz *gasp* archer tanking? lolwut.

But drifting off topic here, I just get so mad with CHB clerics lol.

On subject, I can only agree with Decus, Nowitsawn and Bella. I've been a vit cleric since I started 4 years ago, the biggest reason being I was one of the staple cata clerics in one of the biggest two TW factions at the time. Having 7k hp in tt90 gear allowed me to tank a squad full of people while keeping the cata barb alive (Venjihoe broke 8 with some leet HP rings, I still remember him beating me there xD). Few clerics could do that.
Eventually, with the onset of packs, aps and dragon orb sales I completely lost interest in the pvp/tw aspect of the game. I had 100 vit and +5 refines when we got the tideborn expansion. I pretty much quit altogether after that (played maybe 2-3 months in the past 2 years), coming back just last week for the anni.

With my mooch bag 100 vit and a +2 tt70 weapon I was the 1st cleric to ever finish a full gamma run, in the whole of PWI (/shameless self plug). Granted I hardly did anything but BB but still xD. 2nd cleric on Sanc to finish delta (as far as I know, Nef and LG finished it a day apart if memory serves so don't quote me on that, I ran with Dylanne and Wolfeyes before they quit). Not sure if I was using a tt90 or a 95 lunar wand, in either case it wasnt more than +5 refine. Oh and I also healed one of the first full lunar runs after the initial lunar revamp. Kept fish with <5k hp alive in nirvana (talking a year or two ago here, long before +10 weps were the norm for bp to do the work). Solo healed every TT, from 1-1 to 3-3 from the level I could enter it. All with 100 vit and a +5 wep.
Pure mag clerics went squish and caused a wipe. I and those like me lived through the double wave/took the aoes on Ancient Evil and 3-3 bosses and what have you.

Granted, nowadays with r8/r9/nirvana it's much easier to go pure mag and have a big enough hp pool to take anything and everything the game has to throw at you from a PvE perspective. Back in the day, that wasn't the case. Not by a long shot. Ironically the scrubs ala tweakz dissing vit clerics haven't even seen Ancient Evil, let alone farmed him back when it was "the thing" to do.

My point being, don't give me **** about my mp pool or judge me based on my gear.
I sold my cleric's nirvana pants back when rep first went on sale to get r8 for my archer in order to get me a cheap 5.0 char. I've been pantless till last week (not that I played in the meantime but still xD). Recast my boots and lost the shards/refines. Lost over 1k hp and idk how much mp. Still the exact same reflexes and response time though.

I'd rather be my old school, undergeared self in +5 lunar gear and know what I'm doing, than be a r9 +12 cleric with three times my hp and magic attack and sit there channeling CHB while your squad mates are dying.

The one thing I always said though was that I do NOT consider it my job to save your charm. Ignoring brainfarts/lag spikes I've never let a tank die due to insufficient heals. All my heals have been sage since the level I could learn/afford them (barring CHB, yuck... and lvl1 purehearted xD), and if a barb DID get super low from a high end of a magic attack, sage SoR (+vanguard/79 if it's a really close call) always got the job done.
It goes without saying that I've had barbs incessantly QQ about their charms ticking, that's a given. Ironically, after I killed their charm I ended up on their FL as their go to cleric for just about everything. BFFs till they/I quit game. I even got a 101 barb account from one of em

TL:DR since I just realized the wall of text I've written: skill, response time, reflexes, however you want to spin it > magic attack
Anytime, anyday.

If you judge a cleric based on their mp pool instead of their reaction to an AA/LA char at 20% hp - that's your prerogative. Doesn't make it the right one by any definition.