Very UNFAIR rules for Magic Classes

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2012

Actually...before APS craze, wizards and archers were the most shafted in TT instances. You would go to TT yes, but you would also spend the same amount of time as everyone else, and get the ****tiest drops unless friends were helping you out. Any random squad would **** you over for sure. It was absolutely true that wizards and archers were not going to be any good for instance farming. You could grind and buy your mats...or make friends.

I was told by older players that I had rolled a PvP class that "would be useful for Zhen" from lv 20. Archers were actually a little bit more needed than wizards in PvE because of STA and because they could range tank mana drain bosses.

All in all, no, you did not roll wizard or archer and expect to farm with them. A lot of the more competitive players had veno alts.

FanFon - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

High levels did not determine if you went on TTs or not. If you were level 60, you went into TT1-x. If you were 70, you went into 2-x. Where are you even getting 'high levels' from? Also,

You're not even making a valid argument. You're bouncing all over the place, first by saying Casters aren't legit farmers [Which Jadsia just shot you in the foot about with her post. That's still true somewhat, Jad, it just takes venos longer and 3-x is impossible now on certain bosses.] Then saying that Nirvana doesn't need to be fixed in anyway. Now you're saying Casters are crying about a glitch being fixed. Which has been proven, both in this thread and the other, that the glitch wasn't the case. Read. There's no need to repeat.

What side does PWI have? They only care about how much money they're making. I can bet if caster investments were rolling in more dough than -int investments are, you'd see more favor towards that class as well. PWI doesn't care as long as the money rolls in. =/

Back then 60 was considered a decent level. High levels back then were 70+because that was where the end game content was,.

In my eyes casters in mmorpgs are not the main farming classes and never are meant to be unless they have a broken magical melee.

Pretty much what I'm saying is it does not need to be changed anymore. You really should try rereading the first 10+ pages of these thread that just happened to pop up right after the glitch was fixed.

They are managing this game to make money that's their side. They are using aps toons to generate a profit. Jadsia pointed out that casters could solo, but know what back then it wasn't' about 5 aps to generate a profit it was about the venos pets.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2012

I really don't understand the point of arguing what classes used to be able to do what. Really, all classes should be able to enjoy PvE and PvP. Granted, it is true that some classes can play different roles but they should all be welcomed.

Combining Nirvana so half your squad MUST be casters in order to complete the whole instance is **** because it is forced synergy. The real problem is still that instances are dominated by high hp single targets. No bramble on the bosses would not help, no increased physical defense or physical immunity on the bosses would not help, no nerfing APS would not help. Those are all masking the real problem, because it doesn't make ranged classes any better in those instances. Forcing squads to take a class "just because" is shabby design. I hope the devs never listen to **** people who keep spouting that.

Instances need to be modified so it can play to each class' strengths. There should be alternatives to simply sparking down a single target boss that other classes can do. For example, the wizard class is defined by high damage per hit right. If bosses had much less hp, but heal themselves similar to how a charm heals a player, wizards could bypass the hp threshold with nukes. You would have wizards channel their 2 sparks, and have a everyone time HF and genie amps so that within a second, the boss takes enough damage to simply die whereas a party composed entirely of APS classes would have to DD it down from full before the charm ticks again. This would work to the wizard class' strength, we have seen how they can spike over 1m in raw PvE damage from the damage rankings. That's just one example.

Another thing: bosses need to stop being immune to everything. When bosses are immune to most effects of class skills, what are you left with? Yeah...DDing the boss down with straight damage and guess what class is good for that? This limits players' options. There should be value in having seals, freezes, stuns, and sleep. Bosses need to be susceptible to all of those effects.

They need to have less hp so it's not as agonizing to take down with less-than-all permaspark DDs. However, they can hit harder, kite around, but can be affected by skills so classes can use skill and coordination to take it down in an enjoyable way. It would make the PvE simply more interactive.

Malei - Sanctuary · March 2012

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Back then 60 was considered a decent level. High levels back then were 70+because that was where the end game content was,.

In my eyes casters in mmorpgs are not the main farming classes and never are meant to be unless they have a broken magical melee.

Pretty much what I'm saying is it does not need to be changed anymore. You really should try rereading the first 10+ pages of these thread that just happened to pop up right after the glitch was fixed.

They are managing this game to make money that's their side. They are using aps toons to generate a profit. Jadsia pointed out that casters could solo, but know what back then it wasn't' about 5 aps to generate a profit it was about the venos pets.

Well, when you say "In my eyes" I can't argue that because its a matter of opinion. That, you're entitled to. I read the pages and besides from the obvious QQ/Rage, there have been legitimate ideas onto how to make Nirvana, either in its current forms or the revamping of it, fairer for both caster and melee to make money.

And in this case, it isn't about getting shafted or not, Quilie. Its about the ability to even farm in the first place. . .which is impossible now with the APS craze. I'm not speaking about TT in terms of drops being fair, because I remember the threads about the barb/cleric first pick epidemic. You did, and do now, need to go with good friends in order to benefit mostly for your gear. That much is true.

You would go to TT yes, but you would also spend the same amount of time as everyone else, and get the ****tiest drops unless friends were helping you out.

Its this. At the time, at least casters could even get into the squads in the first place, random - wise. Nowadays its not the case. You can't do normal nirvana with any ol' squad unless you're APS. There is no set rule saying casters can't farm. Fact is, its the players that make it that way.

It is PWI that gives them the tools to do it like that, however. Which is why I say the issue, besides the obvious QQing, is how to fix it.

And oh, okay FanFon. You're talking the margin of what was considered high level back in the day. I understand now. But it wasn't because the casters were high level. From what I remember in the old Sanctuary World chats, and this could be just the server differences, which does play a huge part in this debate when it comes to random squads and how they perform, they just wanted people to do TT. The drop sorting, however? That's another subject.

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Make the instances like Delta (the regular Delta, not the spawn point ****) where every class has a job to do...it's one of the only remaining instances that's still somewhat fun and doesn't discriminate based on playstyle.

And modify the bosses so it doesn't take half a day to finish it.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear · March 2012

where did you get the idea that the only PW devs are in China?? its been made very clear to us many times that there ARE devs at the American office of PWE, that regionalise PW, tweaking it, translating it, loading it with packs and stuff every week in the gold shop.

but when it comes to situations such as you mention, there will never be any change, most likely. if they cant fix simple things, like PK in SP anything like on time, there's little chance of an even smaller problem of making things fair would be important enough to warrant taking car of. im not high enough level to be able to go to the new areas, but as a veno, and also have a cleric, i know what you mean...

Aduro_Tri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

GMs do not make game changing decisions, they are simply here to MANAGE THE GAME, The DEVS IN CHINA are the ones who change the game.
Don't ***** at the GMs for things that the Devs in China did to the game.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2012

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its this. At the time, at least casters could even get into the squads in the first place, random - wise. Nowadays its not the case. You can't do normal nirvana with any ol' squad unless you're APS. There is no set rule saying casters can't farm. Fact is, its the players that make it that way.

Notice where I said you get **** drops unless you had friends. No it's not a matter of "at least they had this" when people go to 2-x TT and end up with Fataliqua mats. The same thing is happening now. Friends and faction mates take casters to NV. How is that any different? There's no set rule that says casters can't farm instances, but the way instances are set up sure makes it harder than with other classes doesn't it? The problem still lies with the instances.

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

.... Once again i'm talking about mmorpgs in general. Venos farming would be one to those outliers in statistics.

This thread isn't about other MMORPGs in general. It's about PWI and your comment about casters not being farmers is not accurate considering Venos were the best instance farmers before the Raging Tide expansion hence the reason I chose this class. I was once one of those farmers so I really take exception to what you said.

It's not good to broaden the scope of your argument when you cannot make your point within the scope of current discussion as it dilutes the relevence of your point and you risk losing some credibility.

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are managing this game to make money that's their side. They are using aps toons to generate a profit. Jadsia pointed out that casters could solo, but know what back then it wasn't' about 5 aps to generate a profit it was about the venos pets.

I've even seen EPs solo'ing bosses in HH more than a year and a half before the 1st rank sale. At the time I was lvl 88 and the EP was high 9x solo'ing the drummer boss in HH 1.3 because my herc couldn't kill it. So again, if an EP was able to solo bosses in HH they were able to farm the instance as well, just not as efficient.

Reninz - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I've even seen EPs solo'ing bosses in HH more than a year and a half before the 1st rank sale. At the time I was lvl 88 and the EP was high 9x solo'ing the drummer boss in HH 1.3 because my herc couldn't kill it. So again, if an EP was able to solo bosses in HH they were able to farm the instance as well, just not as efficient.

Sry, i must ask...but i thought EP was a genie skill, and what is this HH u speak of? Hell hound version 1.3? o.o b:questionb:questionb:shocked

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2012

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I've even seen EPs solo'ing bosses in HH more than a year and a half before the 1st rank sale. At the time I was lvl 88 and the EP was high 9x solo'ing the drummer boss in HH 1.3 because my herc couldn't kill it. So again, if an EP was able to solo bosses in HH they were able to farm the instance as well, just not as efficient.

Sorry but pretty sure EPs were already good in PvE farming to begin with since they have buffs and heals. Instance farming needed clerics...

Asone - Raging Tide · March 2012

Wow, lot of complaints here, but guess I'll toss in my two cents.

Complaint 1# Caster Nirvana Glitch

The Terms of Service clearly state that any glitch/bug exploits are against the rules. After all, you're only borrowing your account from PWI, you don't own it. Therefore you have no right to use this to your advantage.

Complaint 2# Casters wreaked economy! No! The Aps did it!

I'd have to say both did. After all, before the glitch was fixed we had too many x2 on our hands which was bad enough that the aps had the advantage before, then the caster glitch came along and then the prices dipped even more.

Though the glitch is now fixed, don't expect prices to rise for a good bit, the merchant's are still plenty stocked from that last month of x2.

Complaint 3# Take Casters Talismans away!/Take timer off Talismans! No! Take Aps out!/Make a timer on Nirvana keys!

Anyone remember when a caster couldn't get a nirvana squad at all? I do. Be glad they put the talismans in, even if there is a timer. You want the timer removed, go write an email to the company. Info for that is here.

They already have had the aps nerfed in this patch, which is not listed, for this year. People whined about that and it wasn't even a big nerf........

Nirvana keys timed? Again go send an email to the Developers. Though I doubt you'll see any results. I am even unsure if they even get to the emails with the piles they already have.

Not good enough? A ticket won't help you in this case, neither will posting on this section of the forums unless you get a big turn out like the SP debate. Another thing to try? Suggestion Box. Please do read the stickies before posting to those that are unfamiliar with this area on the forums.

Complaint 4# Time it takes to run Nirvana for casters/aps.

Um........I see no reason for this even to be a complaint......

The time it takes to run any Instance would depend on how much time/effort a player is willing to put in for that. Be whether or not that player has good/better gear and refines will depend on the way a squad is made, or how the players prefer to make that squad.

Also, there will always a bad squad and a good squad. No getting around that. So, this would also be something that will be considered a time factor with nirvana. A good squad = faster runs/better loot.
A bad squad = the exact opposite.

Complaint 5# Barbarians (even a complaint?.......nah, personal preference instead).

Don't know how they found a way into this thread but.....

Demon/Aps Barbs: Even more useless in Nirvana since the nerf. Even though they are meant to try and take the damage in nirvana, they suck at holding the aggro for long unless they switch weapons rapidly to use demon skills which I've only seen done once, and that was a barb that actually knew his class well. This was before the nerf mind you.

Sage Barbs: This would be my choice to use. Better HP, much better at holding aggro, debuffs. Again though, this is only if a barb knows his class well. It is still very hard for them to keep bosses off all those aps classes. You can still run extremely fast runs with a sage barb if not better. I'd say the R9's, BM's with demon HF and a sage veno do better. There are many squad combo's you can make up with an aps nirvana run.

Did I miss anything? I'm still reading through all the pages. You guys sure pile them up fast. b:chuckle

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sorry but pretty sure EPs were already good in PvE farming to begin with since they have buffs and heals. Instance farming needed clerics...

That was my point. b:victory

blast93 · March 2012

QQ more.

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary · March 2012

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you cant beat em, Join em. Get your Speedy Sin or BM and do some Nirvanas! Cause everybody knows that the this way is easier than trying to get PWI's attention! You all know it. Also dont worry about an Unbalanced game, Just farm Vana, then Pimp out your Caster. DING! you got a rebalanced game...along with the Negitive Affects like Raps and Cannies will cost less, Unbalanced game at x2 and know that sins can still LOLAPS you with their +12 GOF Daggs

Like i said in the other Forum that was crying about this

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary wrote: »

Like i said in the other Forum that was crying about this

Shame on you for cross-posting from another thread like that. b:chuckle

Oh yeah, who wants a server full of farming sins? Some of us really like our classes and just hate the thought of creating a class we loathe just to farm. Annnnnnnd even if we all did as you say it still wouldn't fix that issue the 4-5 APS crowd was QQing about when the casters were glitching their talis. More farmers flooding the market with NV mats driving down the prices. For those of you out there making elitist comments dictating class roles...I think you may be riding your horse just a tad too high and you're afraid of falling off...so to speak.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary · March 2012

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Shame on you for cross-posting from another thread like that. b:chuckle

Oh yeah, who wants a server full of farming sins? Some of us really like our classes and just hate the thought of creating a class we loathe just to farm. Annnnnnnd even if we all did as you say it still wouldn't fix that issue the 4-5 APS crowd was QQing about when the casters were glitching their talis. More farmers flooding the market with NV mats driving down the prices. For those of you out there making elitist comments dictating class roles...I think you may be riding your horse just a tad too high and you're afraid of falling off...so to speak.

So just because (even casters) people ask the simple question for their squadmates to be on par with them, makes people elitists ?
No. Just no.

What the majority of these screaming QQers are saying is:
"my gear is too low to compete"
- Then farm another Item/instance till you ARE able to compete.

"Yeah but i cant because even those items/instances are in a monopoly of high end gear farmers"
- How the *insert explicit content swear word* do you think they got there ?

"Cashopping!!!11 QQ!!"
-Uhm, Some yeah. as much you dont want to be forced into a stereotypical "casters are weak and cant do ****" box stop putting -every- single person that has better gear than you and does the things you wish you could a cashopper, for the love of ----!!

"PWI/E is at fault if not the elitists"
-How is that ? when actually listening to the caster player base and giving them a whole Mothe-*fill in the explicit word yourself, imagination people*-ing instance to themselves?

"Packs!"
- Yeah, you wear that cube/warsong -just- like anyone else. spend/buy the tokens and just like anyone else wished you had the items that were in it.
We all wanted it, they gave it to us.

"caster damage does not equal or balance up against aps!"
-No effing d'uhhhhh. you can actually one shot someone form a whopping (in-game) 20 meters. just because you dont feel it necesairy to upgrade your weapon/gear and work for that achievement just like the aps folks (which works in tandem with the cashoppers remark not ALL APS char's are cashopped) you -would-.

i can go on and on and on.

Or does every effing caster expect everyone to downgrade their weapon to below average, wear colorfol flowers in their hair, frolic about taking your *** into every instance and stand there.
"there ya go sonny, have at it"

It aint gonna happen!

Prove your worth, pull your own weight and walk your own shoes.
Momma pushed your pram till you were old enough to walk, talk and whack pixels.
Dont expect anyone else to do it for you.

Malei - Sanctuary · March 2012

In a debate, when you start to swear, your whole point just goes down the drain. . .b:surrender

This thread's pretty much done anyway.

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

In a debate, when you start to swear, your whole point just goes down the drain. . .b:surrender

This thread's pretty much done anyway.

Another endless post about the Caster Nirvy issue (I made one too a few weeks ago) well .. to be honest I don t think pwi will ever care to fix or do something about this.. pretty much every caster is building or will end up building an aps toon, and that s a pretty good business for them since a lot of those frustrated casters will actualy spend rl money to build up their aps toon... as I said before I made a QQ post about how unfair is for the people that actually loves caster classes to be able to compete in this ''perfect'' world.. but to be honest I don t thing anything will be fixed.. I m making a BM for farming porpuses now.. I guess that pwi wins (but never in my life i will make a stupid Sin.. I will not fall that low) so once again thks pwi for don t give a sh*it about caster classes and welcome to ''PAI'' ''Perfect APS International''

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

So just because (even casters) people ask the simple question for their squadmates to be on par with them, makes people elitists ?
No. Just no.

Noooo. People who tell other people how to play their toons/classes are elitists. For example: One who says casters are not meant to be farmers so they have no business in NV. You know, those people who deligate roles for each class then gets pissed when other classes are not playing within those roles even if it makes a party successful in an instance. You see them out there raging because Clerics do DD and not heal, Barbs using fists, Venos wearing heavy armor, Archers doing Melee DD...etc. (To be honest some of the QQ threads with some raging about this makes me laugh because it highlights an obvious inferiority complex the QQer has.)

My point was that if someone sets up their char the way they want and plays that char successfully regardless of how anyone else believes it's 'meant to be played' then there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it makes the game a tad bit more interesting to me at the very least so I get annoyed when I see people criticize others for 'not playing their classes within a predefined role.' It rubs me the wrong way the same as if someone tells me that women are meant to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

lordhanzo · March 2012

I swear.. some ppl really acts like what happens in g.a.m.e. is like an apocalypse and would screwed their whole life..

and they must make a stand and gather many ppl to complain/demo to win it.
b:surrender

Takeva - Heavens Tear · March 2012

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

So just because (even casters) people ask the simple question for their squadmates to be on par with them, makes people elitists ?
No. Just no.

Did you even read and try to understand what she wrote? She explained herself but it was perfectly clear the first time.

What the majority of these screaming QQers are saying is:
"my gear is too low to compete"
- Then farm another Item/instance till you ARE able to compete.

No. Majority of the QQ was to be able to do more caster nirvana. Doesn't matter about the gear as long as casters don't have to go 3.33+ aps just to be invited to regular nirvana squads. FYI, most aps gear isn't really all that. I'm r8 and still have trouble getting people to come with me to Regular Nirvana because of my class, not my gear.

"Yeah but i cant because even those items/instances are in a monopoly of high end gear farmers"
- How the *insert explicit content swear word* do you think they got there ?

How old are you?

"Cashopping!!!11 QQ!!"
-Uhm, Some yeah. as much you dont want to be forced into a stereotypical "casters are weak and cant do ****" box stop putting -every- single person that has better gear than you and does the things you wish you could a cashopper, for the love of ----!!

LOL where are you getting this? I haven't read anyone say that they were to weak? Caster weak...seriously? We are mad because we aren't aps? If we wanted to get -interval gear we would have been rolled a BM/sin.

And if you're talking about those people QQing about the time it takes to do Caster then please ignore that argument because it has already been stated that casters can do caster nirvana at about the same speed as an aps squad if you have the gear to pull it off. Works both ways.

"PWI/E is at fault if not the elitists"
-How is that ? when actually listening to the caster player base and giving them a whole Mothe-*fill in the explicit word yourself, imagination people*-ing instance to themselves?

"Packs!"
- Yeah, you wear that cube/warsong -just- like anyone else. spend/buy the tokens and just like anyone else wished you had the items that were in it.
We all wanted it, they gave it to us.

"caster damage does not equal or balance up against aps!"
-No effing d'uhhhhh. you can actually one shot someone form a whopping (in-game) 20 meters. just because you dont feel it necesairy to upgrade your weapon/gear and work for that achievement just like the aps folks (which works in tandem with the cashoppers remark not ALL APS char's are cashopped) you -would-.

i can go on and on and on.

Or does every effing caster expect everyone to downgrade their weapon to below average, wear colorfol flowers in their hair, frolic about taking your *** into every instance and stand there.
"there ya go sonny, have at it"

It aint gonna happen!

Prove your worth, pull your own weight and walk your own shoes.
Momma pushed your pram till you were old enough to walk, talk and whack pixels.
Dont expect anyone else to do it for you.

The rest of what you wrote just became your own little rant in your head or maybe it belongs in another thread you were ranting on?
You're skipping all the arguments that make sense and moving on to the ones that have no idea what they are talking about and thinking that's how all casters are.

I refuse to level my sin or my BM for farming. I simply just don't like playing them. That makes me lazy? LOL ok. Devs should just get rid of Nirvana period and put cannies and Raps into CS. Let the whole PW player base QQ and rage! Break Perfect World into only a social community because that's basically what it is anyway. b:chuckle

tweakz · March 2012

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

My point was that if someone sets up their char the way they want and plays that char successfully regardless of how anyone else believes it's 'meant to be played' then there's nothing wrong with that. .

There is no way to lose in this game (or not be successful). -fail argument.

Jadsia - Lost City · March 2012

tweakz wrote: »

There is no way to lose in this game (or not be successful). -fail argument.

True but for some the biggest impediment in the game is their own prejudice and short-sightedness regarding how other people play their class. That's all.

Very UNFAIR rules for Magic Classes

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