Very UNFAIR rules for Magic Classes

Pyrogasm - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Nice bashing dear. umadbro ?

Mad? I'm still a girl, so I'm a sis to you. Just learn to read and I'm happy again b:cute
-endsarcasm-

Who's bashing now? Takeva is one of the few people I know who's got a life b:kiss
and we speak of extremes cause people keep bringing them up, hence we try to prove they do 90% of the time not exist ingame. There's always someone without a life who doesn't shower or eat when 2x pops on, but let them have it then, they won't kill the economy since they're so few. Now back on track. b:shutup

Accalica - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Mad? I'm still a girl, so I'm a sis to you. Just learn to read and I'm happy again b:cute
-endsarcasm-

Who's bashing now? Takeva is one of the few people I know who's got a life b:kiss
and we speak of extremes cause people keep bringing them up, hence we try to prove they do 90% of the time not exist ingame. There's always someone without a life who doesn't shower or eat when 2x pops on, but let them have it then, they won't kill the economy since they're so few. Now back on track. b:shutup

There you go, you can be rational. I think this fight, aps vs caster, should stop. Really nobody wins here. Im still keeping my opinion about the necessity of a farming char besides your main (if its not your main). We should not take into consideration lifeless people "who dont shower or eat when 2x pops on" and we should really mind our own business. I personally agree with the fact that APS NERFED THIS GAME ALOT, but i dont agree with ppl unable to adapt to that.
Bashing wont solve a bit.

If you take a normal squad of aps ppl - most of em are 4 - 5 aps with not that high refines - the run will take 20m+ -
If you take a normal squad of casters - r8 and stuff - a caster nirvana would take about 30min i supose..
But if you put all these together ... the drops in Caster are better while aps can do more runs. The Casters can do normal nirvana (even if they are not invited often) while aps cant do caster nirvana.
All in one, for a normal gamer, who plays about 3 hours a day none of the nirvanas can be spammed that hard.
Casters can get 3xCaster Nirv Tali + 4x Normal Keys per day and can use all
Aps users get 3xCaster Nirv Tali + 4x Normal Keys but can only use 4 keys.
If people would do their runs everyday, who do you think would win more ?

The single benefit of normal nirvana is that you can stack unlimited time keys. That is really THE ONLY benefit.

Takeva - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL wow you know me while just reading my posts?

I see we are on the same server but I've never ran into you though. When did I say "I" stay on for that long? Like you, I'm also a collage student and I work part time with a paycheck that sucks every week.

Your a scary dude to try to predict to know me. b:chuckle

as i see we even joined game @ the same period - june 2009 for me -
You wont run into me that easy cuz i really dont have time to play.
" Prediction = is a statement not always based on experience or knowledge. "
I actually made an assumption because you tend to talk like that.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

hmm ok can someone tell me what will be the next farm place when vana dies

sure i feel for the aster class but the non aps class are worse then the caster classes
so stop qqing.

so let hope vana dies WHOS WITH ME b:victory.



if its not for all classes it aint good

vana ... king of lazyness.

For you mate, "vana" wont die, not cuz of QQ or aps vs caster wars. If will die, MAYBE, when other new gears come.

Galliano - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont see why APS users have to feel the need to cry over Magic classes gaining, they are just sooking because they dont have as much control in the game as they did before.
They wernt QQing when they were the only ones being able to Nirvana, or the only ones accepting high aps people, and rarely non magic users.

Seems a bit hypocritical for an APS user to ***** and scratch their *** like a derper just as soon as the game slowly balances out.

im the grinch. Fear me !

Galliano - Heavens Tear wrote: »

/scared

xD. Im bored of this topic

Another QQ thread about caster vana, it happened get over it. They might fix talis they might not, from what I hear we can get extra talis with influence xD anyway have fun QQing all and tc and I wish you luck all my fellow casters that are trying to adapt.

ShadowsFlame - Raging Tide wrote: »

lets calculate
TT99 4 pieces 60-70m
TM69 cape 4m
Deicide 30m
Nirvana pants 110-120m approx (lunar will be more) @350k per canny

Total 224m, but lets say refines + shards + other gears i would put it at 400m max. This is the cost for an average 5 aps bm. This bm can potentially farm 200m+ in a x2 depends on how much u farm and spend time. Just nirvana will get u something like 100m+ (the economy is that broke b:cry)

btw they are all approximate values

And my aps sin only cost at most 380mil granted it isn't fully refined...so 880m is a bit high...and before you say anything I'm a true blood caster, facts are facts

LucifersDoom - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds this really sad, selfish and facedesk-worthy? Grow up, please. You were given the means to run Nirvana at your own pace, if you don't like it, quit or reroll as an APS class.

LOL love how that's about half this communities answer. Creating aps class will make it nice and sugary so you should try it.

Tried it was to sweet and did not want anymore. My sin will be sitting at level 83 for a while. I don't have the time and money to spend on another class. b:bye

LucifersDoom - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds this really sad, selfish and facedesk-worthy? Grow up, please. You were given the means to run Nirvana at your own pace, if you don't like it, quit or reroll as an APS class.

The caster nirvana was initiated because even the thick skinned developers realised that there was a problem, albeit not directly of their making, but rather made my players themselves.

Initially with regular nirvana there wasnt any real issue, until rank and higher level gear were made so easy to simply charge for, creating a whole swathe of OP APS classes. This is not the fault of those who took advantage of it either, why shouldnt they purchase these things if they are made available to buy.

This in turn led to the start of the problems though, with people starting to form clericless runs. Again, why shouldnt they take advantage of the extra DD and speedier runs by doing this.

At this point, already an imbalance begins to exist and the availabilty of groups begins to become limited. Later, we see the omission of other casters as it becomes clear that it is way faster and more efficient to use melee classes only if you can put such groups together readily.

At this point, people who had traditionally run casters, or primarily casters, took a long hard look and a great many of them decided that, if you cant beat them, join them. These people (myself included) then proceeded to make sins / bm's simply in order to be able to participate as much as those already in those classes.

Around this time we were treated to WC commentary such as "where are all the clerics, why cant i get a cleric for my bh etc". Probably most of us were playing catch up making melee classes to level so that we could share in the farming opportunities.

Personally, I didnt QQ about the fact that I needed to make an entire new char to stay on a level playing field. A great many people did as I did , accepted that this is how it is, and got on with it.

Of course the fact that now a whole host of people were creating melee classes to farm and earn at the same rate, served only to make matters worse, creating all the more of these classes to exclude the slower , less efficient casters. I am sure that many did as I did and created the chars merely to finance their unloved casters in an attempt to equip them with super gear and make them competetive once more. Once you start your sin or bm etc though, you then encounter another problem.

Because the market is now flooded with sins and such, the requirements to get into groups grow steadily higher and higher, meaning that you had to use the coins you were now starting to earn in order to gear up your melee class still further. Soon, one day we will have some surplus to improve our neglected casters though, right?

So eventually the penny drops that there is a disparityand they make a caster nirvana.
This renews peoples interest in their casters but stirs up some bad feeling among people who were originally melee chars as opposed to those who made them simply to keep up.

Of course they didnt help themselves or the players when they made the format different, less bosses, more drops, more time to kill each boss. Simpler solution would have been to copy and paste the existing nirvan then make one with magic immune bosses and one with phys immune bosses. The leader would then simply have an option to select which instance he wanted to enter.

That would have been balanced, equal, and have afforded people the chance to use their keys in the exact same manner as anyone of any other class.

When you look at the bigger picture, there is cause for concern from ALL classes, given the imbalance. The casters are right to be upset at having timed , limited entry, the melee classes are right to be upset at different drop rates and less bosses.

So when you look at this issue, regardless of which class you play or prefer, consider the fact that ALL classes have valid things to feel aggrieved about.

Spending time slating people for QQ ing instead of "sucking it up" is immature, ignorant, biased and altogether unhelpful.

One last point in the fact that I see a lot of people suggesting "re roll to a melee class then". While that does offer some opportunity to level things up, it firstly does nothing to address the caster dilemma and problem of exclusion, and secondly, after spending several years developing and improving a caster class, a lot of people simply dont have the heart to have to start the whole game over to create a melee character. I did because I had the time, patience and resources to do it, but ask yourself this, if all of a sudden your melle class char that you have worked so hard on and spent so much time and money on became ostracised and unable to participate due to not having channeling for instance, how overjoyed would you be if people said, "suck it up, if you dont like it make a psychic"

kondors you do realize an aps char farms more per hour than a caster can even if both classes can do multi runs?

Insanely good caster squad takes 20-22mins, a very good caster squad takes 25-30mins, a very good aps squad takes 5-7minutes. At worst, the ratio of drops is 1:3 but it's closer to 1:2. When comparing my profits to the profits of my 5aps+10 friend on last 2x drops - I made roughly 15-20mill on average per hour while that person made 20-30mill++ (and mind you I was playing like crazy, doing 100 caster nirvanas in one week while that person was actually being lazy).

Nowadays a 5aps char can farm in less than 2weeks what a caster can farm in 1.5 year if he does caster nirvanas every day, how the hell is that even remotely fair?

It's not like we brought imbalance to the market with caster nirvanas, it's not like aps classes were crying about it - 99% of them just brushed it off, saying w/e I'll still go do my brainless 5min runs and farm more than you anyway. Only thing caster nirvana brought is an option to casters to make decent money/farm canny&raps instead of being forced to play an aps char - so how again is it better for all of us to reroll aps chars and make the situation even worse than it is, if possible.

We had like 5 r9s+12 (2clerics) and one r8+7 do it in 20-22mins on average. Though that was on last 2x drops. Now all bosses can be debuffed so that makes runs faster, but it would still be very, very, very hard to break a 10minute mark - you'd need endgame geared squad and when you compare the price of that gear to the price of a 5aps char...it's 5times more expensive

Only foothold one might find as to why multi caster runs would be a bad idea is because we get equal amount of keys as aps squads and obviously if both sides spend 1000 keys, casters will make more money with those 1000 keys.

However, we will never ever manage to spend twice the amount of keys aps chars spend. Let's say during one month 2x drops, a dedicated caster could do 700 runs while a dedicated 5aps char can do anywhere from 2000 to 2500 runs in the same amount of time.

For that reason I am making a new account on which I will have 3-4 5aps sins sharing same gear. Even though I expect my life to be super easy as it is for aps classes (everywhere, in TTs, bhs, city of abomination event, etc.), I will still support this cause in hopes of the game becoming more balanced to the point casters actually have a reason to play their classes.

jennyblazes - Harshlands wrote: »

i Lol At Everyone!! Mele Squads Take About 7-10 Min Avg, That Is With No Cleric And Take A Barb, I For One Refuse To Do Mele Nirvy Without A Barb, Makes Things Go Much Smoother. I Also Have A Caster, And My Avg Caster Time Was About 12 Min, And That Is With A Mix Of Gears. Honestly , It Is About Skill And Knowing How To Play Your Class. Here Is An Idea, Instead Of Having Talis, Just Put In Script That Allows The Instance To Know If You Are Casters Or Mele. If You Have All Casters, You Use The Priest And It Knows That All Casters Are In Your Squad, Whala, You Are Doing Caster. But If There Is Even One Mele In Your Squad You Must Do Regular. Problem Solved And Every Class Can Do Their Respective Nirvy Instances And Spam Them Till Their Hearts Content.oh Wait.... This Would Make Too Much Sense, Hence Will Not Be Done , Damn!!! Almost Forgot This Was Pwi I Am Playing........

Lol +1

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

Umm what? That is quite the discrepancy between the two quotes.

Fuzzy makes no comment on the issues brought up by this thread, but geez... how about an actual assesment of the time frame it takes to run a caster nirvana. Is it "about 12" or "20+"?

If the squad is full r9+ gear then it can take about 7 mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP7RCHq5ah4 (Micheal_Dark posted this a couple of days ago.)

tt99+ can range from 20 to 45 minutes depending on gear and knowledge of your class.

TheDendra - Harshlands wrote: »

kondors you do realize an aps char farms more per hour than a caster can even if both classes can do multi runs?

Insanely good caster squad takes 20-22mins, a very good caster squad takes 25-30mins, a very good aps squad takes 5-7minutes. At worst, the ratio of drops is 1:3 but it's closer to 1:2. When comparing my profits to the profits of my 5aps+10 friend on last 2x drops - I made roughly 15-20mill on average per hour while that person made 20-30mill++ (and mind you I was playing like crazy, doing 100 caster nirvanas in one week while that person was actually being lazy).

Nowadays a 5aps char can farm in less than 2weeks what a caster can farm in 1.5 year if he does caster nirvanas every day, how the hell is that even remotely fair?

It's not like we brought imbalance to the market with caster nirvanas, it's not like aps classes were crying about it - 99% of them just brushed it off, saying w/e I'll still go do my brainless 5min runs and farm more than you anyway. Only thing caster nirvana brought is an option to casters to make decent money/farm canny&raps instead of being forced to play an aps char - so how again is it better for all of us to reroll aps chars and make the situation even worse than it is, if possible.

I would prefer it if you actually read what I said rather thanskimming and letting your imagination fill in blanks.

Nowhere did I state that I thought it was better to re roll, lets get that straight. I created an aps char to help finance my cleric as I stated. I did it because I had the time, patience and resources to be able to. I stated clearly that re rolling isnt a good solution since many players dont have the heart , resources or time to re roll.

I stated that I had done it more to illustrate the point that I am conversant and experienced with both sides of the debate.

You are lloking at the issue from the perspective of casters only, which makes you blinkered and biased. There are valid and accurate issues from all classes. Why? because instead of fixing and balancing aps with channeling, and phys damage with magic damage, the coders decide to create something every time that they think will address the issue, but in fact just creates more imbalance in another area.

Its like having a prssurised container with a hole in it. The hole allows the contents to leak under pressure at a given rate. Rather than plug the hole we decide to puncture another hole in the container, thus the leakage rate from the first hole is now only 50% of the overall leakage.
In fact the more holes we make the lesser the percentage leaks from the first hole.

The fact that there are less bosses in caster is a true and valid concern of the melee classes, regardless of the fact that it takes the casters longer to kill them. The casters are right in saying they are limited on how many runs they may make and when they may do it. The drop rates are differnt too wich is a valid melee concern, and the rate at which drops may be acquired is a significant caster concern.

The patchy, ill though out solutions provided by the writers serve onlly to divide us and cause class resentment.

The problems, when traced back to original cause are fairly simple. APS doesnt equate to channeling in terms of attack rate. The physical damage for a given class with same level of weapon as a caster is not equivalent to the casters damage.

If we create phys immune mobs then we ought to also have mag immune mobs. But the simpler thing to do is not make mobs immune to either, balance aps with channeling, and balance phys dmg with magic dmg.

There is then no advantage in damage output rate of any class over any other, there only needs to be one instance, and all classes are equally in demand for groups since they can directly replace a player of a totally different class.

The problems with that though are that it would orevent the division amongst players who direct their anger at each other depending on class, and it would mean that the writers would need to actually put some thought into what they implement.

They would sooner throw out something sketchy to shut you up, and have you tearing each other to pieces than have you focus your attention where the problem really lies.