What are new clerics doing that is annoying all the old players?

KanaBanana - Heavens Tear · July 2011

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As far as taking aggro, it's entirely dependent upon the situation. There are times when the cleric should pull aggro. For example, in my 70s when running BH59, I ended up in a squad of 3 sins, 2 BMs, and me. We went down the water path and the 5 of them went in different directions after different mobs (each with their own speed boost to boot). The 5 mobs aggrod quickly turned into 6, then 7, then 8 with 4 members of the squad seeming trying to stay out of heal range. I stacked the one I could reach twice and Holy Pathed to the others. While en route, the two sins there died and neither BM was doing too well. I gave them each a couple of stacks to stabilize their HP (intentionally pulling heal aggro from the mobs those two hadn't tagged), guessed at how many mobs they could tank without heals for a short period of time and threw down a tempest to pull aggro from the ones they couldn't handle onto myself. The BMs focused on the mobs they could handle and I alternated healing and res'ing the two dead sins. They got up, we finished the group, rebuffed, and continued without a hitch.

Now, I pulled aggro. I was certainly squishy in my 70s. Does that mean I'm a fail cleric? The thing is, clerics can be surprisingly durable despite their lower HP/speed/etc. The important thing is to know what you can deal with and what you can't and act accordingly.

It's an entirely different situation. Without a set tank, a bunch of DD's running off in every direction being attacked by magic mobs, you had no choice. That was an emergency, and unless you wanted the whole squad dead, you had to take aggro. Stealing aggro at random times when the squad is doing fine just because "you can take it" is ridiculous imo.

thumbs wrote: »

Last BH79 I took my cleric to, there was 4 clerics, a sin, and a seeker. My cleric tanked most of it. b:chuckle. Let them die or they don't learn.

Lol, I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy getting yelled at...unless saving someone's life means I'm going to die.

No Dimensional or Elemental Seal?

Debuffs are a different matter. They're used accordingly and when needed. I wasn't addressing this specific subject here, just a cleric's GENERAL role in squads when he/she is the only one.

If request is for DD, and cleric fills that request: I don't see the problem. At higher levels they'll probably get those heals. It's not like buffs aren't important too.

Exactly, at higher levels when melee DD's DD so hardcore BP alone keeps them alive. But at low levels, or if you hang around with normal non 5 aps non +10 weapon players, you'll be a healer, so leveling your healing skills is a must. This specific girl wouldn't level her heals because she insisted she was a DD not a healer. Get my point here?

I've seen many non p-leveled clerics attempt Regeneration Aura on those bosses, and it sounds like you did it too: "because we learned from our newbie mistakes". -Yet I NEVER made that mistake and my cleric is p-leveled. b:laugh

Lol. Well, actually I didn't. I have been through enough bosses with my main and alts to know which ones to BB on and which ones not to. If you're totally new to PWI, you won't know, and you'll probably make silly but deadly mistakes like this, which is fine as long as you learn not to do it again. Slightly older players, like me, will know which bosses are BB-able and which one aren't. (:

My replies in blue.

thumbs · July 2011

KanaBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My replies in blue.

Difficult for me to read for me and unnecessary so I skipped it. It's also an improper way to quote.

Decus - Dreamweaver · July 2011

thumbs wrote: »

It's also an improper way to quote.

I wasn't aware there was a "proper" way. Enlighten me

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · July 2011

thumbs wrote: »

Difficult for me to read for me and unnecessary so I skipped it. It's also an improper way to quote.

Not everyone has to do things you're way, and putting your replies in a different color within the text of a long qoute is standard practice in these forums. What isn't proper netiquette is refusing to read other people's threads but still insisting on telling them that they aren't quoting properly because they aren't doing it the way you would do it on a different forum. It's just like in real life. You ever hear the expression "when in Rome, do what the Romans do?" That expression applies everywhere, if you're in another country and it's polite to take off your shoes, take off your shoes. If you're in a country where its polite to slurp your noodles, never mind that it's very impolite here, just do it if you want to have manners. In PWI, people quote that way all the time for longer quotes. It's not impolite here, it's one of many ways that are considered acceptable to quote someone on these forums. Therefore, it is the proper way. That's PWI's own little slice of netiquette. Demanding people conform to your way of doing things no matter what their own practices are though is rude no matter where you go, irl or on the web.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · July 2011

KanaBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's an entirely different situation. Without a set tank, a bunch of DD's running off in every direction being attacked by magic mobs, you had no choice. That was an emergency, and unless you wanted the whole squad dead, you had to take aggro. Stealing aggro at random times when the squad is doing fine just because "you can take it" is ridiculous imo.

Maybe I misread your first post then. It sounded like you thought that a cleric should never have aggro if they're the only cleric.

Although, there are certain times where I still think it's best for a cleric to have aggro. For example:

- Mantavip. A wiz/archer/etc can also range DD, but depending on the defenses that each has, a cleric may be the best tank.
- Running magic mobs. Like the priestesses in Eden. If you've got a squad of one cleric and a bunch of melees, it may be better for the cleric to have aggro so that the mobs won't run away and cause the melees to have to chase after them.

I guess in these cases the cleric would be the "designated tank".

But getting back to the point, I don't think it's wrong for a cleric to steal aggro as long as it doesn't **** things up. If you've got a melee tanking a ranged/melee target, if the cleric takes aggro but the mob stays ranged (where it is), then what difference does it make? The cleric just changes who they're healing and the target dies faster because people aren't holding back. IMO, it's the same logic behind forcing sins to hold their DD to let a barb tank when they can tank themselves.

But I will readily agree that if you can't tank, you have no business pulling aggro.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · July 2011

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

putting your replies in a different color within the text of a long qoute is standard practice in these forums.

it's a common enough practice, and it's easy enough to read. but it makes one's text needlessly hard to re-quote again, so it's rude to whoever might want to comment on it --- which is why i never use this method myself.

thumbs · July 2011

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not everyone has to do things you're way,

Did I say they did? I'm just pointing out that people are self censoring by being blatantly rude. This article is focused on email, but pertains to forum posting as well (note #3):

[url]http://www.nutricraze.com/Article_about_Are-You-Internet-Rude-And-Dont-Realize-It-a-5177.html[/url] wrote:

There are 12 simple rules for Internet courtesy and respect, particularly with email. If only more people would take the time to learn them.

By Kelly Williams Talk to the Author.

"There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we have contact with the world.
We are evaluated and classified by these four contacts:
what we do, how we look, what we say, and how we say it."
- Dale Carnegie (1888-1955) American Educator

Below are the online basics you need to minimally become familiar with in order to be taken seriously in your online communications.

1. Do not type in all caps. Typing in all caps is considered yelling or screaming online. Those who type in all caps are perceived as lazy and not being considerate of those who will have to read their e-mail. Various studies on the topic reflect that it is more difficult and takes longer to read text that is typed in all caps. And for those who question "What studies?" here is one example for your reading pleasure:

http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~muter/pmuter1.htm

Searching for words is faster with uppercase characters, but reading of continuous text is slower (Vartabedian, 1971), perhaps because interline masking is greater with uppercase (Nes, 1986). In addition, lowercase enhances reading efficiency because word shape is helpful in word recognition (Rudnicky & Kolers, 1984).

One is free, at their convenience, to review the entire document above which goes into detail about how eyes react to what they have to read based on how the content is presented.

Stating certain professions are required to type in all caps (that's the first time I've heard that one) does not jive either. Would you send any off-line communications in all caps - the answer is probably no.

NOTE: It should go without saying, however, since I was chastised for not saying so, this rule certainly doesn't apply to the vision impaired or to those who are disabled or handicapped and cannot use the shift key. However, since typing in all caps is considered yelling online, it would behoove those who do so because of these reasons to take the time to include a brief note why they are typing in caps so that their e-mails and intent are not misinterpreted.

2. Do not leave the Subject: field blank. Always fill in the Subject: field with a brief and concise description of the content of your e-mail. This is very important in helping those you communicate with organize and manage their e-mail. Important: avoid using all caps or all small case, terms such as Hi, Help or Please Respond, or the recipient's name in the Subject: field as you may be misidentified as a spammer and your e-mail deleted.

3. Refrain from formatting your e-mail with colored text and background colors or images in your day to day communications. If I had $1.00 for every Netizen who e-mailed me complaining about how they cannot read e-mails that are formatted (different color text, bolding entire e-mails, using giganto background images or script fonts), apparently by those who have no color sense or command of HTML, I could retire. Your color and formatting choices can make your e-mails impossible to read. In addition, formatting could make your e-mails difficult to reply to without having to go through a procedure to convert your e-mail to plain text first. Many times when folks hit Reply they have to deal with your formatting carrying over to their reply - which makes communicating with you unnecessarily difficult. Why would you expect folks to have to go through having to convert your e-mail just to read and respond to you? The answer: They probably will not! Using large background graphics that take forever to download, especially if you have a phone connection (which is more common than most think once you get outside of metro areas) is plain old naive. If you do feel the uncontrollable need to use any type of formatting in your daily communications, do so sparingly. Please, on behalf of all those who e-mail me, just send your e-mail in plain text!

4. On those rare occasions where it is necessary to send a group of people the very same e-mail, as a courtesy to those you are sending to, please list all of the recipients e-mail addresses in the BCC field. (Blind Carbon Copy - from the old days when typewriters used carbon paper to create identical copies of a document when it was being typed.) When an e-mail address is designated in the Blind Carbon Copy field, the recipient will get a copy of the e-mail while their e-mail address remains invisible and protected from the view of the other recipients of the e-mail - some of whom they may or may not know. Never expose your contact's addresses to strangers! If you are not sure how to BCC in your e-mail program, here are site resources that may help you learn the features of your software programs:

EUDORA NETSCAPE OUTLOOK EXPRESS

Long lists of e-mail addresses at the beginning of any e-mail is an immediate sign that the sender is either a novice/Newbie - or doesn't care to respect other's privacy. None of which, as I am sure you'll agree, are complimentary perceptions! E-mail addresses are like phone numbers. Only the owner of the e-mail address or phone number is the one to authorize who they want to have it and make it public to. Many folks prefer to decide for themselves who has their e-mail address. By sending mass mails to a list of folks, you have made that decision for them - and that is a breach of assumed privacy when communicating with you. Let those you correspond with determine for themselves who they will make their e-mail address known to - do not make that decision for them! By listing handfuls of e-mail addresses in the e-mail headers for all to see is inconsiderate of each recipient's right to privacy.

5. If you are new online, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
1. "I will not forward any dumb joke, "chain letter" or unimportant e-mails to my friends without their permission." "I will not forward any dumb joke, "chain letter" or unimportant e-mails to my friends without their permission." 2. "I understand that by doing so I may fill up their in box, use other's resources unnecessarily and may cause other important e-mail to bounce." "I understand that by doing so I may fill up their in box, use other's resources unnecessarily and may cause other important e-mail to bounce." 3. "I understand that most folks have seen these e-mails a million times and find them annoying." "I understand that most folks have seen these e-mails a million times and find them annoying." 4. "I know that by forwarding these so-called humorous e-mails I may offend or tick off people who do not share my sense of humor or who are sick of having stupid e-mails forwarded to them each time a Newbie hops online." "I know that by forwarding these so-called humorous e-mails I may offend or tick off people who do not share my sense of humor or who are sick of having stupid e-mails forwarded to them each time a Newbie hops online."

There! Now, that wasn't too bad was it? ;-) You will no longer be tempted to forward those jokes, untruthful or frivolous e-mail that instruct you to forward to your friends! And, you will avoid looking silly and uninformed in the process. Read them if you must then hit delete. You really don't believe e-mail that state certain things will happen simply by you forwarding the e-mail to 10 friends do you? Talk about a waste of resources!!

In addition, many of these e-mails are actually hoaxes or downright bogus. Before you forward an e-mail that appears good intentioned with an incredible story that instructs you to "read and share" with everyone you know, first check Snopes.com to see if the story is even legit in the first place and not a hoax. Not doing so can have you eating crow when everyone you e-mail is informed you just forwarded a hoax and didn't know any better. And, don't get mad at someone if they point out to you that you were uninformed by perpetuating a hoax! If you don't know for a fact that the e-mail you are forwarding is accurate and specifically apropos to the person you are forwarding to and you know they will want to receive it - all you have to do is ask first.

One of the common requests I receive through this site is from folks wanting to know a "nice way" of telling someone they care about to stop sending joke, hoax and chain e-mails without hurting their feelings. Speaking for those who know you, we have seen those e-mails before, many times - cut us a break - verify them before you send them to us or just hit delete!

6. Never give out phone numbers or personal information without confirming you are communicating with a reputable party. Never give out personal contact information of others without their specific permission to do so.

7. Make a reasonable effort to search a Web site for the information you are looking for - "Frequently Asked Questions" or "About Us" sections may give you the answers you seek before you waste the site owner's time by e-mailing for information that is readily available on their site. I get e-mailed daily for answers that are easily found in my 10 Courtesies or in the Internet 101 section if someone were to make minimal effort. These onliners simply didn't want to take the time to read them so they expected me to take the time to repeat what is on my site. Talk about giving the perception of lazy and not respecting other's time! If a Web site owner takes the time to provide information, read it. No one person's time is more important and common courtesy includes respecting this fact. If you do not find what you are looking for, search for the appropriate contact area for your question. Do not just click on the first e-mail link you come across and blurt out your question(s). If you do, don't be surprised if your e-mail goes unanswered when the information is easily found on the site. It is important to understand the focus of each Web site as well. Each site cannot be everything to everyone or be what you perceive it should be. Be sure to review the information provided to double check that what you seek would even be covered by the site you are visiting.

8. Do not use Return Receipt Request (RR) for each and every e-mail you send because you like "knowing" when someone opens your e-mail. Not only is this annoying to the recipient, this feature is intrusive! How would you like it if every time you heard a voice mail, answering machine message, opened a postal letter from a friend it was immediately reported back to them that you had heard/opened their communications? The recipient should have the privacy to determine when/if they want to open, read and reply - period. RRs should be reserved for those instances where it is critical to each side knowing the e-mail was opened. Such instances would include legal and important business issues. Keep in mind opened doesn't mean read and that the recipient can decline an RR request so you will not be notified of their actions.

9. Understand that you will be on a continual learning curve. All of us are. This gig is changing constantly. The only consistency is change! If you do not have the desire to learn and do not make the effort to understand the "culture" of the technology in which you are participating, you will not be taken seriously by your fellow Netizens. You also may get some terse e-mails from other onliners pointing such issues out to you - some may not be as nice as others. When this happens, do not fire back at them! Use situations like this as an opportunity to learn what you are doing wrong so you do not anger others and can have a more enjoyable time.

10. If you receive a nasty e-mail - do not respond immediately - if at all. People are very bold and overly critical on the other side of this screen. In my experience they tend to not hesitate to point out the things they think you need improvement on while not even noticing the good or positive points on the very same issue. Many times these folks are simply trying to get a rise out of you (this is called trolling) or are trying to make themselves feel self-important. Sometimes they are just plain jerks. If you do not have something nice or constructive to say, or at the very least sternly professional - just hit delete.

11. Keep in mind that all private e-mail is considered to be copyrighted by the original author. If you post private e-mail to a public list or board, or forward it to an outside party in whole or in part, you must include the author's permission to post the material publicly. Not doing so can get you into some deep doo-doo legally or with your friends and associates. Think of it this way... how would you feel if a personal private e-mail that you had written for a specific purpose/person is then plastered across the Internet or forwarded to folks you do not know? Always ask for permission before forwarding or posting any private e-mails!

12. Always minimize, compress or "zip" large files before sending. Many folks new to the online world do not realize how large documents, graphics or photo files are. Guess what? They are large enough to fill someone's e-mail box and cause their other mail to bounce! Get in the habit of compressing anything over 200,000 bytes (200K). (You can view file sizes in Windows Explorer. Simply right click on the file name and choose properties.) There are several types of file compression software available for these purposes. Do not send unannounced large attachments to others because you think that photo or file is cute or cool or neat. Always ask first! More importantly when sending business files, do so only during business hours, always compress and send at a prearranged time!

Many onliners still have to wait up to 30 minutes or more to open overly large files due to their connection speed. Those online not too far outside of metropolitan areas do not have cable or DSL connections, they are on dial-ups - many only @ 28.8K! If you do not know how to compress files, then you need to learn how to make them physically smaller with graphic software. Those are your two choices; compressing or minimizing. You really need to be aware of and practice one or the other. Minimizing a photo or graphic's physical size to no larger than 600 pixels in width will make them e-mailable. Most photos right off your camera are 1,000 pixels plus in width which makes for a very, very large file size. Nothing need be larger than 600 pixels to view anyway. Or you could be really courteous and learn how to use the free Web space offered by your ISP to upload photos and simply send the link to friends and family to view. If you do not know how to do any of these things all you have to do is learn! [Great Resource: HTML Programming Cheat Sheets]

To send large files that take a long time to download that may not respect the other person's time, reflect their sense of humor or point of view and may even max out their e-mail box is pretty inconsiderate and downright lazy.

13. Do not forward virus warnings! Virus warnings received from others are generally always hoaxes. [Great Resource: Symantec's Virus Hoax Page] Especially if an e-mail tells you to forward to everyone you know--don't!! Delete those e-mails and do not forward them! Definitely ignore those forwarded e-mails instructing you to delete files on your computer - they could be critical files that your computer needs to operate. Only warn friends if you know that your computer has a virus that you inadvertently may have passed on to them. Rely only on your virus software and your software provider's Web site for the real scoop. If you get one of these wacky e-mails from a friend or associate, go to your virus software provider's site and search for the virus name in question to confirm if it is accurate information or if it is a hoax. When you find it to be a hoax, let the person who forwarded it to you know that they are perpetrating misinformation and unintentionally alarming others. Read what your Virus Software provider has to say before you unnecessarily alarm folks and in the process end up looking rather silly to say the least. There are many urban legends purely in existence to watch all the Newbies **** up their computer's configuration files or forward the fake e-mail to "everyone they know" while looking rather foolish in the process. You know what they say... There's a Newbie born every minute! ;-)

With the advancement of technology, it is possible to get a virus without even opening an e-mail. That ended with W32.Nimda.A@mm in September/2001 that merely required you click on the subject of the e-mail in your e-mail program or for those that use Outlook Express have your program set to preview. HINT: Turn Previewing Off! Nimda also propagated itself by taking advantage of bugs in Microsoft servers to plant itself on the server and then transfer itself to those who visited the Web sites on that server using Internet Explorer (yes, IE is buggy too) as their browser. (That's why I use Eudora for e-mail and FireFox as my browser!)

Several of the latest viruses actually use e-mail addressed farmed out of your address book or inbox to send the virus and propagate itself to all those listed with your name in the From: field. The latest viruses can send out the virus with your friend's names in the From: field or any combination of e-mail addresses found on your system! Yikes! It is clear... The need for a 24/7 real-time virus protection software is no longer a choice - it is your responsibility to remain virus free. You will also need to update your virus files regularly. Check for updates every time you log on so that your computer is protected from the latest releases or use the automatic update feature of your virus software.

Basics for virus protection:
* Get an active program that is always "ON". This will catch any viruses as they are being downloaded so they can immediatly be quarantined and cannot infect your system. * Update your virus patterns daily or every time you log on. These updates can be downloaded from the Web site of your virus software manufacturer. Most software has a scheduler to tell your computer to do this automatically - how convenient! You need to ensure your system is protected from the latest viruses which may have just been discovered since last you were online. New viruses are identified daily! * Never click on any attachment or an .exe (example: Happy99.exe, free stuff, click here or ILOVEYOU) file attached within an e-mail without making sure the attachment has been checked for viruses. Even if the e-mail appears to come from someone you know very well! The attachment my be virus generated and plucked your friend's e-mail address off another infected computer belonging to someone they communicated with. Or your friend may unknowingly be infected and not aware of the virus on their system which has just spawned an e-mail that has their name on it and is addressed to you. The e-mail may look like it is from your friend just to get you to open it when in fact it is an e-mail generated by a virus.

As a courtesy to your fellow Netizens, try to learn
what this is all about. Ignorance is not bliss online.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · July 2011

thumbs wrote: »

[snip]

being blatantly rude. This article is focused on email, but pertains to forum posting as well

[snip]

Nice reference, but:

9: Understand that you will be on a continual learning curve.
How many times have you preached things on these forums that are out of date?

10. If you receive a nasty e-mail - do not respond immediately - if at all.
Everyone on the forums knows how much of a troll you are and how nastily you can respond to people. Sometimes you even instigate it.

12. Always minimize, compress or "zip" large files before sending.
While your quote wasn't a file, you could have just linked the source and quoted the relevant part, instead of unnecessarily bloating the forums with what will end up being to most viewers a tl;dr.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · July 2011

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it's a common enough practice, and it's easy enough to read. but it makes one's text needlessly hard to re-quote again, so it's rude to whoever might want to comment on it --- which is why i never use this method myself.

I was just pointing out that its a pretty common practice in this forum. And as they say, "when in Rome..." As for the person wanting to recomment on your reply, i see it as no more difficult than continuously editing the quote to do it the other way the first time. I don't really see it as rude because it's kind of become customary in this particular forum. Its been that way the entire time i've played this game....

thumbs wrote: »

Did I say they did? I'm just pointing out that people are self censoring by being blatantly rude. This article is focused on email, but pertains to forum posting as well (note #3):

That article pertains to email, not forum posting. Forums are really similar to chat rooms, where things like emoticons and colored text are appropriate and fun. This isn't a work email you're sending a colleague or an inquiry you are sending a company. There is even a whole section of these forums for off-topic discussion. Also, you should practice which you preach if you are going to go on and on about proper netiquette. This includes not calling people names, not putting in large files, etc. Also here are some more.

1) Do not post new problems on someone else's thread and interrupt a topic of discussion.
2) Do not use someone else's thread for a private conversation
3) Do not chastise newbies
4) Do not post "empty" or useless responses, such as just "lol" or "cool." Only post responses when you have something to contribute
5) Be civil. Personal differences should be handled through email or IM and not through posts displayed to everyone.

IJS

BornForMagic - Sanctuary · July 2011

Well im Pure Mag (5 vit ftwb:surrender) But i dont understand...DD? Sure i can throw a Debuff or 2 or maybe plume shot the boss to change it up but seriously...What do New clerics not get about their class...They need another cleric to heal them? Then wth are you doing playing a cleric???

tweakz · July 2011

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Nice reference, but:

9: Understand that you will be on a continual learning curve.
How many times have you preached things on these forums that are out of date?

Less than half as much as you.

10. If you receive a nasty e-mail - do not respond immediately - if at all.
Everyone on the forums knows how much of a troll you are and how nastily you can respond to people. Sometimes you even instigate it.

You're no better. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an occasion where I instigate.

12. Always minimize, compress or "zip" large files before sending.
While your quote wasn't a file, you could have just linked the source and quoted the relevant part, instead of unnecessarily bloating the forums with what will end up being to most viewers a tl;dr.

The source was absent when I posted.

This is a hostile forum. It lacks good moderation. If you can't beat them: join them. -what I did. Simply pointing out to someone why they're wasting their effort is helpful, but you hostile trolls who bring down this forum (and people like me with it) would defend rude posts and participate and encourage bad netiquette rather than just accept that some people aren't going to read what you write because it's harsh on the eyes.

KanaBanana - Heavens Tear · July 2011

tweakz wrote: »

This is a hostile forum. It lacks good moderation. If you can't beat them: join them. -what I did. Simply pointing out to someone why they're wasting their effort is helpful, but you hostile trolls who bring down this forum (and people like me with it) would defend rude posts and participate and encourage bad netiquette rather than just accept that some people aren't going to read what you write because it's harsh on the eyes.

http://en.memgenerator.pl/mem-image/and-always-remember-i-m-better-than-youb:chuckle

*sigh* If you don't like the moderation, gtfo. But apparently, you don't have a big issue with it because you've posted over 3k times. /sigh.

thumbs wrote: »

Difficult for me to read for me and unnecessary so I skipped it. It's also an improper way to quote.

I won't even bother to read the other long, tedious, unnecessary post responding to mine either. It refers to EMAILS, not forums. There are no specific rules for forums regarding quoting, except the ones "established" (consciously or not) by its user community and sometimes mods.

Each forum is unique in the web. They each have its rules and different criteria of what's considered right or wrong, and here in PWI quoting like that is normal and acceptable. I honestly couldn't care less about your opinion on the way I quote, or anyone else's for that matter. It's off topic and negligible. So, spam the thread with your useless posts if you wish, but I won't read what you have to say about my quoting habits.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Maybe I misread your first post then. It sounded like you thought that a cleric should never have aggro if they're the only cleric.

Although, there are certain times where I still think it's best for a cleric to have aggro. For example:

- Mantavip. A wiz/archer/etc can also range DD, but depending on the defenses that each has, a cleric may be the best tank.
- Running magic mobs. Like the priestesses in Eden. If you've got a squad of one cleric and a bunch of melees, it may be better for the cleric to have aggro so that the mobs won't run away and cause the melees to have to chase after them.

I guess in these cases the cleric would be the "designated tank".

But getting back to the point, I don't think it's wrong for a cleric to steal aggro as long as it doesn't **** things up. If you've got a melee tanking a ranged/melee target, if the cleric takes aggro but the mob stays ranged (where it is), then what difference does it make? The cleric just changes who they're healing and the target dies faster because people aren't holding back. IMO, it's the same logic behind forcing sins to hold their DD to let a barb tank when they can tank themselves.

But I will readily agree that if you can't tank, you have no business pulling aggro.

No, you understood what I was saying, but I worded my post wrong. I have a bad habit of using absolutisms, lol.

There are times when clerics can and probably should take aggro. But, as I said before, clerics that take aggro just "because they can take it" at random situations is unnecessary and idiotic Imho. New clerics sometimes think they're all mighty because they can heal themselves and pull aggro from mobs instead of healing, which usually leads to squad wipes. Experienced clerics might know when and how to pull aggro but newbies don't, especially if they're new to PWI and clerics.

BornForMagic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well im Pure Mag (5 vit ftwb:surrender) But i dont understand...DD? Sure i can throw a Debuff or 2 or maybe plume shot the boss to change it up but seriously...What do New clerics not get about their class...They need another cleric to heal them? Then wth are you doing playing a cleric???

Ouch pure vit. Epic squishiness & heals ftw.

Evict - Heavens Tear · July 2011

Clerics that squad heal @ non-AoE bosses frustrates the **** out of me.

thumbs · July 2011

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Clerics that squad heal @ non-AoE bosses frustrates the **** out of me.

I just lol @ the MP they're wasting. b:chuckle

GenericBrand - Archosaur · July 2011

On my mystic (81 atm) I have witnessed so many annoying things. Main issue is spamming AoE heal or BB for everything. But right now, my biggest complaint is that the majority of clerics tend to try to ironheart through all the debuffs from guarnob/polearm in BH69. I say as politely as possible to use purify when I see this happening. After the wipe and we try again, of course nothing changes. Purify is just as rare as it was before.

I am usually forgiving about the first few deaths in wraithgate because hey, I died a couple of times at level 70 before realizing those bosses are really not that hard if you use purify. They are even easier when you time your purify right. But come on, if you (as the cleric) keep dying over and over using the same methods, don't you think something needs to change? It seems as though the new generation doesn't understand this. It's all:

[1] Do what it is you always do and pray for the best.
[2] Should a squad wipe occur, revive all bodies and repeat previous step until success!
[3] For those occasions previous step fails repeatedly, get a lv100+ cleric who is pressed for time to do your job so you learn (and/or don't care to learn) nothing but get what you need done.

b:surrender

Shaiba - Harshlands · August 2011

Hi

Today I did Zimo with my archer (she is lvl 66 almost 67). We needed it for bh 51. In the squad, we had 2 sins (lvl 6X), 2 mystic (my BF who is lvl 66, and another one lvl 80), a cleric (lvl 6X) and me.

When we were 5 in the party, my BF and hi requested for a tank. The mystic lvl 80 told us "no need for tank, my pet can tank Zimo". So, we invited the cleric.

Well, we get to the boss. The mystic lvl 80 ask "who can lure ?". A sin lured the boss (my BF wanted to, but the sin was quicker ). Then, the pet of the mystic aggroed the boss. But the mystic didn't heal his pet, so the pet died. The mystic was dying (he didn't heal hisself too), my BF healed him. A sin get the aggro of the boss, he died (my BF tried to heal him, but he died too faster). Then, lot of people died. And, I saw that the cleric was using the AoE heal. AoE heal, AoE heal, ... I told her that zimo hasn't AoE, she said "I know". I asker her why she uses the AoE Heal, she answered me "I like it". So, I gave up.

Finally, my BF tanked Zimo. He healed hisself.

I left the squad and blacklist the mystic lvl 80 (who didn't know that mystic have heals too and that he can heal his pet) and the cleric.

I don't understand why she used AoE healing on non-AoE bosses. And I don't understand why the mystic lvl 80 didn't help with heals.

Another thing that pissed me off is when a cleric meditates to regen his mana during a boss. "Why you're not healing the tank ?" "sorry, i need mana".

Sorry for my possible bad english Hope you'll understand me b:cute

/NiKi - Lost City · August 2011

They are annoyed with new clerics because they suck (no offense to those very few who know what they are doing). Why they suck? Simple,cuz of fc. No1 grinds anymore or do quests so they have time to explore the skills. All lvls are doing fc's with hypers. Its not just clerics, all classes, but people will notice that on clerics 1st cuz they are most needed class. I'll rather get to lvl 100 in a year,and know my class rlly good then reach 100 in a month and have same knowledge as a lvl 10 cleric, but thats just me.

Godel - Harshlands · August 2011

Just a small point. I don't consider myself a new cleric (I played it for almost two years... I know I'm the slowest person in levelling...) and I agree that AoE heal is abused. However, now many sins have high aps and think that they can tank everything, BB is sometimes the best way to avaoid the IH ping-pong between the real tank and a bunch of DD that otherwise would die after 2 hits.

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear · August 2011

sins(squishy dd as godel mention) can tank almost anytjhing at 90+ nowadays. 100+ sins tanks(not saying they are puller like in rb and stuff, just bosses) everything.

i was in a tt3-2 on my veno the otherday(2 weeks ago) and this cleric(lvl 100) doesnt buff(only when asked, doesnt buff herself only when someone said to her) keeps using wellspring surge not ih... and when she gets hit she stands there didnt heal herself with no buff on, didnt even attempt to run. and that's the last time ima ever squad with randoms....

FemaleAssain - Sanctuary · August 2011

After reading a lil bit on these comments, and usually I dont post.but Decide to share, I remember when I was just like them back in maybe 09-10. I used to ask what was IH and all these other abbrevations.

I started learning when one time i was like level 45 and this bm that was lilke maybe level 60 heeded my help because everyone in his faction couldn't help them they were all busy or something. So then I kept spamming (if i can remember on the top of my head) Pure heart blessing? and i kept doing that not knowning was IH was so he kept dying a couple of times. Then he had enough of what i was doing and he (im assuming) got mad at me. And then i dont know how he was patient with me and finally i realized what i was doing. I notice that the PHB was slow and IH was fast and decide to use that after about a year or so.. I developed very well. and a lot people wanted me to come heal them, but i would always tell that i am busy. And i would always ask why?

But now that i know why they kepting asking me, i realized that i was a good healing cleric at lvl 60. Haha. I remember i was a noobie >.<

But now i stopped playing but its glad to share memories

I became more advanced on lvl 80 and i stopped from there.
as of today i stopped about a year or months ago bc its pretty bad of what im looking at now days..

Wywer - Heavens Tear · August 2011

So far i never noticed the new aoe-heal trend, many were talking about here, until yesterday when i went with my cleric to bh 51 and got a 10 lvl higher cleric "helping us". I pmed her at the start of the run, to ask who heals, who dds, she replied she will heal, i said ok.

Then arriving at Rankar she said, we should both aoe heal, she at one side, me at the other side. I looked at my not really lvld CHB range (choose to lvl other heals and buffs instead)... lol no way, so i kept spamming ih and sometimes wellspring, while she was aoe healing right next to rankar, and ofc at 1 point she got 1 shot by the short range aoe. Then after boss is dead she started shouting at me that we would have succeeded if i was doing what she told me ... like any heal can save u when u are 1 shot b:laugh

Then at mobs, the others in squad didn't really bother to aoe properly all mobs for aggro, and what the other cleric does, spams aoe heal and gets aggro on the mobs. I ended up ih-ing her, although maybe i should have let her die to learn a bit. b:surrender

Then again at Wyvern starts spamming aoe-heal right next to boss. After 2 deaths finally she realizes she have to stay back ... duh >.>

At the start of the run, i thought the mystic will annoy me, who gave res only to himself, but for me and the other cleric only when arriving at rankar, although both of us told him to buff at start. But in the end this annoyed me the less, since the only ones who needed mystic res buff was that other cleric, and the mystic himself by constantly aggro stealing on bosses that 1 or 2 shots arcane classes b:shutup

Bluelita - Archosaur · August 2011

As in this thread have been also mentioned the questions related to cooperation amongst 2-clerics squad.. then I was wondering if there exist any rule of the thumb concerning these situations?
I tend to think that in instances, lower level shall more heal and the higher one - dd, as surely his dd-ing is more effective. I meant of course all the situations when both clerics can heal effectively (and not when the lower level cannot do it in the autonomous way)..
What do you think shall be the correct way to act?

Fintan - Lost City · August 2011

Bluelita - Archosaur wrote: »

As in this thread have been also mentioned the questions related to cooperation amongst 2-clerics squad.. then I was wondering if there exist any rule of the thumb concerning these situations?
I tend to think that in instances, lower level shall more heal and the higher one - dd, as surely his dd-ing is more effective. I meant of course all the situations when both clerics can heal effectively (and not when the lower level cannot do it in the autonomous way)..
What do you think shall be the correct way to act?

I try to play with not-fail people, so I rarely see many different clerics anymore (most of the good ones have kinda stopped playing, at least their clerics). And the few that still show up on the FL seem to be stuck bored in Frost, for the same reason I kinda haven't been playing much recently: it's hard to find squads that want clerics for anything else aside from "Buff us before we go into NV/TT/etc.!" (Well, GV, maybe, when it's BH... *cough* b:surrender But, let's just say that a cleric's job in that case can't be anything but boring. "Poke me on voice chat if you need me; I'll be cleaning the toilet with an old toothbrush for the next hour or two!")

In the end, it depends on the squad make-up and what sort of fighting will be going on. In my opinion, if it's child's play, the one with the WEAKER matk should be the one doing the healing/BB/whatever with the opportunity to DD as well, while the STRONGER matk should focus on DD. Of course, if it's a more challenging situation where more healing will be necessary, the STRONGER matk should be healing. And if it's uber-wipeable (3-x comes to mind?), both clerics should split the squad so each is healing 2 other people, plus him/herself.

Why? Because the stronger magic attack translates not only into stronger heals, but also stronger attacks. If there's any chance in hell the cleric might draw aggro with DD (it happens, especially if you're high crit and get "lucky" enough to crit a buttload of times in a row with seals/amp/dragons/spark/Genie poison/etc., even in APS squads; sometimes DPH really does win over DPS), the stronger person should be at the ready with a stronger heal so the cleric that now has aggro can stop doing anything (aside from say Plume Shell) until they lose it. And you can't crit heals. b:laugh

Of course, all bets are off if one of the clerics has no clue how to properly DD, as they've effectively relegated themselves to healer-for-life. And, from what I can tell, most of these "newer" clerics have very little experience outside of select few instances. So they wouldn't be able to do anything other than what they've gotten themselves pigeonholed into.

But yeah, with a pair of halfway-clueful clerics, they should be able to work out who's doing what. Even if the squad doesn't know. b:chuckle (I have been known to work this sort of thing out in pink chat, so the squad doesn't freak out. Funny thing is, if I were them, I'd be freaked out if the Clerics WEREN'T figuring this stuff out. Silly people.)

As for how mystics fit into all this? I dunno. I only kill 'em; I've not squadded with one yet of a sufficient level that s/he is useful. b:victory (I've been known to wander around lower-level areas randomly killing people, then helping out some random person who's having a tough time of questing. I feel for them, I really do. Not enough questers anymore. And yay outside heals not affecting EXP! b:thanks)

brazenbusboy · August 2011

So what has changed between the time when clerics were all perfect and now where most are fail, according to the posters here?

Some mention the whole power-level scene.

Yes, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. It not just power-leveling, but the OP stuff that the new professions have that have totally changed game dynamics. There are no OP cleric aids. All the skip to endgame game changes have pretty much eliminated all game play except endgame. If you are not buying hypers and paying to level, you are not 'pro', or so PWI markets the game now.

The game is now designed to appeal to the console game bred generation that want to beat the game as quickly as possible. Support roles fit only in the old school style play.
It requires people who want to play in that environment. But the people who are attracted now do not want that, and the friends they drag into the game with them are likely to be of the same mindset. The average new player is simply not interested in old school style play, which is what support roles are. Everyone wants to DD and level fast and PW is all to ready to sell that to them. From the new mindset clerics view, you should have rolled a Sin and gear up so that bloodpaint is all the healing you need. From their viewpoint support was something for starting and midgame, which is totally passe now. The only reason you find any in BH and FBs is to meet their culti requirements, they are not there to level or learn how to squad.

I am not defending it, that's just the way it looks to me.

Learning to play a cleric well is not as simple as learn three combos, gear up (cha ching) and go to town. I have a baby cleric and guess what? There are no squads to learn/practice your squad skills in from 1 to 60. Old school squading is dead. PWI killed it with 5APS and selling power. The only way a new cleric can complete low level FBs is to get much higher level faction-mates to drag them around while they kill everything with no need of healing. That is if they are lucky and can find a faction where everyone is not addicted to pay to level via FC and other methods. Those seem to be slowly vanishing as well. I joined and then left one faction that did nothing but pay to level.

Daedallus - Sanctuary · August 2011

This ^^

+1

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · August 2011

brazenbusboy wrote: »

Learning to play a cleric well is not as simple as learn three combos, gear up (cha ching) and go to town. I have a baby cleric and guess what? There are no squads to learn/practice your squad skills in from 1 to 60. Old school squading is dead. PWI killed it with 5APS and selling power. The only way a new cleric can complete low level FBs is to get much higher level faction-mates to drag them around while they kill everything with no need of healing. That is if they are lucky and can find a faction where everyone is not addicted to pay to level via FC and other methods. Those seem to be slowly vanishing as well. I joined and then left one faction that did nothing but pay to level.

you always have a choice.
whether you decide to take the harder or easier is in your hands.
cant blame the results for the path you took.

thumbs · August 2011

brazenbusboy wrote: »

So what has changed between the time when clerics were all perfect and now where most are fail, according to the posters here?

Some mention the whole power-level scene.

Yes, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. It not just power-leveling, but the OP stuff that the new professions have that have totally changed game dynamics. There are no OP cleric aids. All the skip to endgame game changes have pretty much eliminated all game play except endgame. If you are not buying hypers and paying to level, you are not 'pro', or so PWI markets the game now.

The game is now designed to appeal to the console game bred generation that want to beat the game as quickly as possible. Support roles fit only in the old school style play.
It requires people who want to play in that environment. But the people who are attracted now do not want that, and the friends they drag into the game with them are likely to be of the same mindset. The average new player is simply not interested in old school style play, which is what support roles are. Everyone wants to DD and level fast and PW is all to ready to sell that to them. From the new mindset clerics view, you should have rolled a Sin and gear up so that bloodpaint is all the healing you need. From their viewpoint support was something for starting and midgame, which is totally passe now. The only reason you find any in BH and FBs is to meet their culti requirements, they are not there to level or learn how to squad.

I am not defending it, that's just the way it looks to me.

Learning to play a cleric well is not as simple as learn three combos, gear up (cha ching) and go to town. I have a baby cleric and guess what? There are no squads to learn/practice your squad skills in from 1 to 60. Old school squading is dead. PWI killed it with 5APS and selling power. The only way a new cleric can complete low level FBs is to get much higher level faction-mates to drag them around while they kill everything with no need of healing. That is if they are lucky and can find a faction where everyone is not addicted to pay to level via FC and other methods. Those seem to be slowly vanishing as well. I joined and then left one faction that did nothing but pay to level.

Could you describe how playing a cleric is so complicated?

I put IH on the same button I use to heal with wiz and veno. Wellspring Surge on my primary button. Chromatic Heal on my non-spark AoE button. Purify on my secondary button. -There was almost nothing to learn when it came to what button to press and when for healing. We already know the game and what to do on bosses like Polearm / Fragrance from playing other toons.

If anything; we're not locked into old mind-sets like the clerics that can't stop healing APS w/BP that don't need it.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · August 2011

thumbs wrote: »

Could you describe how playing a cleric is so complicated?

I put IH on the same button I use to heal with wiz and veno. Wellspring Surge on my primary button. Chromatic Heal on my non-spark AoE button. Purify on my secondary button. -There was almost nothing to learn when it came to what button to press and when for healing. We already know the game and what to do on bosses like Polearm / Fragrance from playing other toons.

If anything; we're not locked into old mind-sets like the clerics that can't stop healing APS w/BP that don't need it.

Boy, if only 3-2 and 3-3 bosses like Emp, Arma, and beast were as easy as FB69 and FF. Please, more pro wisdom about how to IH/WS your way through when you see a partner cleric get put in a killer bubble and the BM/barb get struck with 10-15K metal damage.

Decus - Dreamweaver · August 2011

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Boy, if only 3-2 and 3-3 bosses like Emp, Arma, and beast were as easy as FB69 and FF. Please, more pro wisdom about how to IH/WS your way through when you see a partner cleric get put in a killer bubble and the BM/barb get struck with 10-15K metal damage.

He's just that good, Janus. You forget your place! b:shocked

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · August 2011

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Boy, if only 3-2 and 3-3 bosses like Emp, Arma, and beast were as easy as FB69 and FF. Please, more pro wisdom about how to IH/WS your way through when you see a partner cleric get put in a killer bubble and the BM/barb get struck with 10-15K metal damage.

Janus dear
they probably dont know the existence of such bosses

What are new clerics doing that is annoying all the old players?

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