What are new clerics doing that is annoying all the old players?

brazenbusboy wrote: »

The blame I believe lies with the more experienced clerics who have failed to pass on their knowlege.

It's a little difficult to pass on knowledge to someone when they level in a week.

At least 90% of the knowledge that any cleric needs is on this forum, whether in the guide, in a wiki article, or in a thread. The problem is that the people who need to read those guides and threads don't come to the forum or choose not to take in the wisdom.

The lack of people wanting to learn and/or making an effort is probably the biggest frustration.

brazenbusboy wrote: »

The blame I believe lies with the more experienced clerics who have failed to pass on their knowlege. Unlike many other MMOs PW seems to have a general lack of decent player authored guides. There are a few, but the quality is mostly substandard, showing little evidence of more than one quick writting session that is never updated and usually pretty sloppy and dis-organized.

I really agree with you. The fact is they don't listen to tips. *as i said in my first post*
They 1 Don't care what you're saying, 2 Get pissed in some cases and leave squad.

I think the issue is that while all classes take practice to become good at, cleric and barb take the most. Even old players will suck if they try to heal an instance after being on a cleric for 3 weeks. It takes time to immediately know what heal to use and take everything into consideration in a split second. Good clerics can look at the situation the squads in and their hand will just move. They will know without thinking when wellspring should be used instead of IH, or how many IH stacks a player needs. They'll be able to watch their own hp, the roster, and the instance at the same time. Somebody who has lvld to 100in a week won't have that ability. And therefore they spam skills and make us all go "wtf"


Old players will know what I'm talking about.

QueenOfNukes - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Edited in a word there.

And yes, I totally know what you mean. After a while, you just know what to do in an instance. It does take a while to get the hang of it though.

Now my eye registers every single status sign and purifies and heals and debuffs bosses pretty much automatically. Provided that the server doesn't lag on me.... But that's another topic altogether.

Lol i was talking about "old players" who didn't play cleric and have just lvl'd up a cleric in 3 weeks or less. They know the basics, like that IH is a stacking skill, but they still can't play it very well for a while.

Mekkhala - Lost City wrote: »

I think the issue is that while all classes take practice to become good at, cleric and barb take the most. Even old players will suck if they try to heal an instance after being on a cleric for 3 weeks. It takes time to immediately know what heal to use and take everything into consideration in a split second. Good clerics can look at the situation the squads in and their hand will just move. They will know without thinking when wellspring should be used instead of IH, or how many IH stacks a player needs. They'll be able to watch their own hp, the roster, and the instance at the same time. Somebody who has lvld to 100in a week won't have that ability. And therefore they spam skills and make us all go "wtf"


Old players will know what I'm talking about.

I agree with this except its not "Good clerics can look at the situation" but rather "Good clerics can see the situation coming." That's why we can watch our hp, the squads hp, and the tanks hp. Because we learn to predict and read the situation and what's going to happen next.

My pet peeves of the new generation:

Healing with SoR instead of IH. IH has a better stack so if you plan on DDing, give me it, not SoR pls. Other thing I see are the clerics that heal once every 15 seconds with the one big SoR heal.

Chromatic spammers. They stand in one spot and (macro?) chromatic. No debuffs, no purifies, just chromatic. Prolly have themselves targetted, too. If I can tank fine with a chromatic every 7 seconds and no stack, I could prolly also tank fine with no cleric and get more of the split *kick*.

Not debuffing. Seriously, with paint the cleric is sometimes not even needed other than for buffs. So throw an IH on me and then spend the next 13 seconds doing something more useful than stacking me when paint does 100% of the healing.

Vit build instead of gear/refines. I keep seeing these clerics with 6 or 7k hp at level 100 and I think decent gear and decent refines. Then I look and its TT90 if I'm lucky, tt70 and 80 half the time. Then I look at their mana and see 7.5k mp. Rather than improving gear they just stat for vitality, then have the worlds weakest heals and wonder why people die/squad wipe.

Mekkhala - Lost City wrote: »

Yes you worded that better than I did.

I am an athletic guy, but when I play my barb I sweat. I'm intense. I may not always be the tank, but I'm in charge of keeping people from getting too much, or any, aggro and dieing. Theoretically it'd be the same with my cleric since when I play her I'm in charge of keeping everyone alive, but I actually find playing my cleric the most relaxing class.

You sit back, you watch things unfold and you predict where things are going and what will happen, then as you described your fingers flow to the right keys. I've called clerics one of the easiest classes to play for this reason, but thats not entirely accurate. If you have a knack for reading the action its like you are 5 seconds ahead of everything and there is no rush, you just do what the scenario calls for. You don't lead at all, just follow and guide and keep people safe. That's what makes playing a cleric so relaxing for me and one of my favorite classes to play.

I think most the people with this knack probably picked cleric to play early on.

__Jhuv - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am that cleric o_o Sorry if i dont want anybody to die! O_O Bah if you dont even try to play on funny mode and let everyone who aggros a bit more dieing.. why did u make a cleric ? ^^ To Pull, Heal One *Only one*, oh someone took aggro.. no im too lazy to heal him. Oh yay 1 mob's dead! Ok now let's ress everyone i got dead.....
Ahahahaah xD
Anyway I think, and that's my modest opinion, you HAVE TO heal every jerks and try to keep them alive. If they die because of their being.. jerks, well that's not your fault. But if they die and you didnt even try to heal them.. well that's another thing..
Of course there are certain situation you can see far from 1km they're gonna die and it's not
worth an ih xD

You make it sound like it's an MP issue. It's not. That situation is "not worth an IH" because of a far more important problem, which is heal aggro.

I'm not saying don't heal a jerk because he's a jerk (because that's just being petty). I'm saying don't heal an idiot if he puts himself in a terminal situation. Because guess who gets aggro when he dies? You.

By all means, having a "save everyone" instinct is great for a cleric. But you need to supplement it with common sense. What's worse: one dead idiot, or six dead squad members because you tried to heal one idiot?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am an athletic guy, but when I play my barb I sweat. I'm intense. I may not always be the tank, but I'm in charge of keeping people from getting too much, or any, aggro and dieing. Theoretically it'd be the same with my cleric since when I play her I'm in charge of keeping everyone alive, but I actually find playing my cleric the most relaxing class.

You sit back, you watch things unfold and you predict where things are going and what will happen, then as you described your fingers flow to the right keys. I've called clerics one of the easiest classes to play for this reason, but thats not entirely accurate. If you have a knack for reading the action its like you are 5 seconds ahead of everything and there is no rush, you just do what the scenario calls for. You don't lead at all, just follow and guide and keep people safe. That's what makes playing a cleric so relaxing for me and one of my favorite classes to play.

I think most the people with this knack probably picked cleric to play early on.

yes I know all this. I was saying that "predicting what was going to happen" better explained how good clerics play verses how I tried to explain it in my previous post. But, uh, thanks for the long re-explanation?

I'm sweating when I play cleric because I'm leveling to 103 without spending money on dolls (and no, im not a glitch frost w.****. Took me over a month and a half to get to 102.) When I make it to 103 I can relax again. Until then, I'm sweating every time im in an instance that doesnt have a mystic, 2nd cleric, or isn't ws or GV. T.T

Samwen - Lost City wrote: »

Jesus you lot have terrified me, lol. Now I have to reread every guide to check I'm not being a moron. Hm.. maybe I'll make a thread.

Personally I'm very open for advice. I barely ever ever use squad heal. Im 72 and I think i've used maybe twice in bhs?... since 40. ._.

Looking back, maybe there were occasions when I should've used that instead of just popping an ironheart on every dd that drops below 3/4s.

It really depends on who you're healing and how powerful your heals are.

For someone who's maybe a vit cleric or LA cleric healing a mid-level HP tanking sin, archer, or BM, they should def use stream if HP goes below half without stacks before trying to gauge how their HP is falling and if it necessitates stream or one can just start popping IH's.

For a pure magic cleric they can easily wellspring for 3.5-5k HP, so in that same circumstance maybe it necessitates a wellspring. However, for a person with well over 10K HP without a doubt stream is necessary.

The only heals I can think of that aren't necessary at all and that I never use is the very first healing skill I got, along with sage and demon buffs that also healed HP. Wellspring, Chrome, IH, Stream, BB.. these are, to me, essential.

Your heal types do matter but what matters more is being decent at playing and sensing what situation necessitates what skill. That can only be learned with experience, so can't be afraid to **** up sometimes.

Sometimes even when my squad was doing just fine and I had all the confidence in the world I have time to DD, I still get talked down to by squad mates when I DD. Sure I drew aggro onto myself, but I defended myself, and survived the aggro myself just fine, because I know I could. And the squad came out fine. But I got talked down to anyway. I see nothing wrong in having fun and playing DD as long as the run is fine, but what is this discrimination thing? It's like the "Women don't belong in the work field, go back to your kitchens and make sandwiches".

thumbs wrote: »

I can't find reason to use Stream of Rejuvenation for sage.

Can you find the use of SoR period? Because it's more than a buff machine.

Heal the tank in FF instead of Elemental, and Dimensional Seals or Sage magic shell for the mages when the tank is a pleveler with BP and well rounded buffs.

Why would you even want the cleric if you don't need the heal? There are better debuffers in the game. I guess you want the rez but I mean if your'e so pro then you shouldn't be dying anyway.I guess I just don't see why I would even bring a cleric/mages along if I didn't need them. I'd solo fc. It's the problem of the game in a nutshell and what has destroyed team dynamics.


Half way into FF heal a puller before they secure aggro, then go to town (back to start) and ask for help with the mobs they allowed the squad to rush through.

A good cleric will often stack a person before a pull, in case something goes wrong and they end up taking more damage than they can handle. If you're not smart enough to wait for them to finish stacking before you rush off, then it's your fault if ends up going badly.

Bring less than L11 revive to a high aps Nirvana. - It's a Lv. 89 book ffs!

And it's also a pretty expensive book. And many clerics powerlevelled to 100 just like you did and will do nirvana to get their skills/make money. Everyone starts out new to stuff at some point. I'm sure you didn't have the optimal gear for the instance right off the bat either.

Cleric heals puller while in luring position.
Again, chances are you rushed in and they had started to cast it way before. I really have almost never seen this even in low level instances, I have seen people spam speed skills/pots/holy path and then wonder why the clerics heals were late.

I'm a hyper plevled nub btw. Don't think experience playing cleric is as necessary as just common sense or knowledge of the game mechanics.

Sorry but it kind of sounds like you don't understand as much as you think you do. Maybe if you had done lower level squads you would understand why clerics are doing what they are doing and why it should be expected.

My replies in yellow

thumbs wrote: »

I'm a hyper plevled nub btw. Don't think experience playing cleric is as necessary as just common sense or knowledge of the game mechanics.

If common sense and knowledge of game mechanics were merely enough, you just proved that one false, tweakz. Things like this show why:

I can't find reason to use Stream of Rejuvenation for sage.

For the same reason one would find to use stream level 10 over stream level 9. It's a stronger stream. Painfully obvious for someone who has been playing a cleric for two years.

400 MP vs 1000
2 second ch/cast vs 3.5
S.Ironheart learned at 89, S.SoR at 99

Ironheart can't overcome a major loss of HP that quickly. Doing Nirvana on a cleric would show a cleric how useful stream is. IH is what a cleric uses when the situation (a person's HP) is stabilized using IH. Stream is for lack of stability.

Heal the tank in FF instead of Elemental, and Dimensional Seals or Sage magic shell for the mages when the tank is a pleveler with BP and well rounded buffs.

While I can sometimes understand the seals, it's certainly not in a cleric's MO to sit there and sage magic shell every caster just because they do damage. As a veno one can myriad or ironwood then hit in fox form for DPS instead, or a wizard can undine for themselves or other DD's.

Half way into FF heal a puller before they secure aggro, then go to town (back to start) and ask for help with the mobs they allowed the squad to rush through.

In this case, most of the time the cleric is simply not the take-control type to tell people it's not a good idea to rush. Bad on the cleric for this one, but it's something they'll learn.. usually.

Bring less than L11 revive to a high aps Nirvana. - It's a Lv. 89 book ffs!

Level 11 isn't really necessary for Nirvana, although demon revive is quite significantly more helpful with half channeling.

Stand outside of melee range in Nirvana. (cause bosses to move, interrupt permaspark, etc)

This is a good idea for bosses like Arbiter, where all those flames spawning at once will insta-kill most clerics, and can't trust the squad to AD for them, or rely that heavily on sparking. The only boss where it's quite helpful to stand next to the boss is the one that spawns those darkwing corpses, for one person to quake them while cleric focuses on healing.

Melee class HP's to mob, erupts, cleric hits mob first from range.

I did that on my cleric just to **** people off who ran up to a boss and sparked first before hitting. Note to melee classes, hit a few times first, then spark.

Cleric sets BB nice and tight to mobs where someone is supposed to lure (common in 79, and warsong metal).

Cleric heals puller while in luring position.

These two are things they will learn the hard way. Most do, even the non-plvl'd ones.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If common sense and knowledge of game mechanics were merely enough, you just proved that one false, tweakz. Things like this show why:

Sorry, didn't realize I was going to be trolled by an idiot.

For the same reason one would find to use stream level 10 over stream level 9. It's a stronger stream. Painfully obvious for someone who has been playing a cleric for two years.

When sage IH is almost as strong and casts in almost half the time , and almost half the MP cost... you're an idiot.

Ironheart can't overcome a major loss of HP that quickly.

Wellspring Surge idiot.

While I can sometimes understand the seals, it's certainly not in a cleric's MO to sit there and sage magic shell every caster just because they do damage. As a veno one can myriad or ironwood then hit in fox form for DPS instead, or a wizard can undine for themselves or other DD's.

Undine is limited to 3 elements and stacks with elemental seal anyway dumb butt.

Level 11 isn't really necessary for Nirvana, although demon revive is quite significantly more helpful with half channeling.

Nirvana? Are you one of those idiots that think this is the best source of coin? Sorry, why am I asking?

This is a good idea for bosses like Arbiter, where all those flames spawning at once will insta-kill most clerics, and can't trust the squad to AD for them, or rely that heavily on sparking. The only boss where it's quite helpful to stand next to the boss is the one that spawns those darkwing corpses, for one person to quake them while cleric focuses on healing.

Whatever nub. You're showing your lack of experience, and I thought I was fairly newbish to Nirvana.

I did that on my cleric just to **** people off who ran up to a boss and sparked first before hitting. Note to melee classes, hit a few times first, then spark.

Hey dumb butt: Sages gain defense from spark and build accordingly. -Learn to play cleric.

troll on loser.

thumbs wrote: »

Sorry, didn't realize I was going to be trolled by an idiot.

O hai there teapot, this is your kettle calling.. b:cute

When sage IH is almost as strong and casts in almost half the time , and almost half the MP cost... you're an idiot.

As someone who has been a celestial sage and celestial demon with Sage/Demon IH, plus sage/demon wellspring and SOR, you really haven't a clue.

Wellspring Surge idiot.

Level 11 Wellspring from a cleric with 14-15K mag attack (both mine and my wife's clerics) goes for roughly 3.5-5k as I've iterated on these boards numerous times. Stream does 7-9k. When certain Nirv bosses hit people for 2-3.5k, and switch aggro, in most cases you don't have time to try and wellspring your way out of it. God forbid trying this at arbiter when people get flamed and hit afterwards. Wellspring in 3-2/3-3? Haha. Downright hilarious.

Undine is limited to 3 elements and stacks with elemental seal anyway dumb butt.

So? Why should a cleric be responsible for a mages damage? You failed to put that into perspective.

Nirvana? Are you one of those idiots that think this is the best source of coin? Sorry, why am I asking?

"Best"? No, that's your language. Last 2x I made roughly 500m coin with my wife, and I detailed what exactly we did during that span. Let's just say I'm not doing badly. Like your silly spam, I've been making coin also doing powerleveling with my sin.

Whatever nub. You're showing your lack of experience, and I thought I was fairly newbish to Nirvana.

You must be, given your arguments.

Hey dumb butt: Sages gain defense from spark and build accordingly. -Learn to play cleric.

troll on loser.

Speak for thyself. Obviously you're quite pissed off and really cannot even make any sort of coherent argument concerning how to play a cleric. If it's this difficult to learn properly and you have to result so highly upon personal attacks, delete your cleric. Hell, delete your veno too. They're both pretty useless.

truekossy wrote: »

And what pisses us older players off? **** like this is so bloody COMMON nowadays that a cleric that actually knows what we'd consider basics is a rarity. When you consider that, it kinda makes sense why so many people bash clerics more than normal nowadays.

b:surrender Preach on

Yogaxpto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I usually get used to leave squad and bl the stupid demanding person...

When your in a squad like that, ask to receive lead and kick that said person.

thumbs wrote: »

I can't find reason to use Stream of Rejuvenation for sage.





400 MP vs 1000
2 second ch/cast vs 3.5
S.Ironheart learned at 89, S.SoR at 99


***
Wizard in Sage Dragon's Breath: Heal the melee classes that are 1-1 dd'ing w/ bloodpaint and ignore wiz.

I've seen the chromatic spammer. b:sad

Heal the tank in FF instead of Elemental, and Dimensional Seals or Sage magic shell for the mages when the tank is a pleveler with BP and well rounded buffs.

Half way into FF heal a puller before they secure aggro, then go to town (back to start) and ask for help with the mobs they allowed the squad to rush through.

Bring less than L11 revive to a high aps Nirvana. - It's a Lv. 89 book ffs!

Stand outside of melee range in Nirvana. (cause bosses to move, interrupt permaspark, etc)

Melee class HP's to mob, erupts, cleric hits mob first from range.

Cleric sets BB nice and tight to mobs where someone is supposed to lure (common in 79, and warsong metal).

Cleric heals puller while in luring position.

I'm a hyper plevled nub btw. Don't think experience playing cleric is as necessary as just common sense or knowledge of the game mechanics.

That explains why you're responses seemed..well "not the best".

Lets get straight to the point. It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about.









Regards
~CandyCorn