Proving that 5aps isn't broken

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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i don't see your point. You have options, you have different set of skills.

    but you think that being a melee dd entitles you to some kind of x5 dd over anything else in the game?
    I hope not...
    melee dd can be tanks too, true, so repair cost might come into play. But come on, the times when barbs claimed first drops for millions worh of mats just for 50k worh of repairs is a long way back. I can do a 2-3 run with 25k worth of repairs , i remember back in the days when barbs basicaly stole a minimum of 1 antenna (when it was worth 3 mil) just cause they had very high (100k) repairs.

    You don't see my point? Really? Why make a class that has to run up to something if you can dish out as much damage from far away? I'm not talking about this game in particular, I'm just talking about class balance in general. I didn't say melees should be able to deal 5x as much as ranged, I'm just saying there should be a distinction.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I didn't say in a hour. I said that BM can produce about 10-15 times more coins that my wiz during my ingame time. A BM build with not even half the gear I had on my wiz. There is just no competition.

    I'm saying per hour. You're giving the multiple. -wakey wakey !

    Understand that this is YOU playing your wiz and not indicative of what others can do with theirs.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Jadsia - Lost City
    Jadsia - Lost City Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Yulk_owns - Lost City wrote: »
    @ WNB tank


    So if you have a fist veno with 4.0 APS, they actually have most likely a pet to help improve their APS, along with a genie AND 0 p.def debuff. Which will outshine every other class in terms of APS.

    Why would anyone nerf most of the veno's most powerful skills (Mage, AoE, Etc) not to mention the ability to heal pets at a decent level just to restat to wear a freaking fist?
    I **** bigger than you...

    Shut up and play the game.....Damn
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    I'm saying per hour. You're giving the multiple. -wakey wakey !

    Understand that this is YOU playing your wiz and not indicative of what others can do with theirs.

    really, I guess I don't know how to play my wiz and you know ... b:chuckle.

    oh, there are ways to make some cash with a wiz. But not SOLO, not independent. The few solo stuff that a wizz can do a cleric could do about 2 times better with less trouble.
    Now, BM (or any other -int class) can do maybe a different thing, but waaaaay more profitable.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    really, I guess I don't know how to play my wiz and you know ... b:chuckle.

    oh, there are ways to make some cash with a wiz. But not SOLO, not independent. The few solo stuff that a wizz can do a cleric could do about 2 times better with less trouble.
    Now, BM (or any other -int class) can do maybe a different thing, but waaaaay more profitable.

    So every class should be able to do all the same things in this game equally? Good I want my barb to hit other barbs from range for 48k, I want my sage barb at 1.0 to do as much damage as a 5.0 does, I want to be able to heal myself like a cleric, and I want all the debuffs/buffs that everyone can do too. If all you mages want to do as much DD as a BM from range, then we might as well trash all classes and make one, god forbid there's a difference in damage output, skills, and rolls in this game.

    I'm kinda tired of hearing about all this bullcrap, play your class, know your role, learn it love it, and ****. If you don't like it play a different class.
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    So every class should be able to do all the same things in this game equally? Good I want my barb to hit other barbs from range for 48k, I want my sage barb at 1.0 to do as much damage as a 5.0 does, I want to be able to heal myself like a cleric, and I want all the debuffs/buffs that everyone can do too. If all you mages want to do as much DD as a BM from range, then we might as well trash all classes and make one, god forbid there's a difference in damage output, skills, and rolls in this game.

    I'm kinda tired of hearing about all this bullcrap, play your class, know your role, learn it love it, and ****. If you don't like it play a different class.

    If only people would! Been taking breaks from soloing to do some squad stuff lately including ones on my wiz. I'm absolutely dumbfounded as to why people used to play instances better than now. They want wines for Eden and Brim ffs.
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote:
    really, I guess I don't know how to play my wiz and you know ...

    I'm not great on wiz as I mostly level it by WQ, but you're right: I think you might be doing something wrong. Wiz can solo a lot. They can 1 hit ~50 [?] mobs at a time, and I've seen one solo Black Hole Devourer.

    Stickies here are one problem: Putting stat points in vit for us is crazy.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Naivety - Harshlands
    Naivety - Harshlands Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ZZZZZZZZZZZ.


    Hey look, a sin.

    5APS = Broken. :D

    Also, ive seen Sins, Clerics and Archers Solo Blackhole, its not hard, using a bow and potting once in a while for the LA and healing self for the AA, its no problem. You make it sound like its difficult.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »
    Also, ive seen Sins, Clerics and Archers Solo Blackhole, its not hard, using a bow and potting once in a while for the LA and healing self for the AA, its no problem. You make it sound like its difficult.

    Not fair! Melee have to heavily gimp their attack to do the same thing mages can do cheaper, faster, sooner! Mages are OP! Game is broke! -thanks for biting. =)
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Blackhole is doable with good hp and damage because the it's really an elite mob. You can stun it, seal it, freeze, knock it back, all that stuff.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »
    Why would anyone nerf most of the veno's most powerful skills (Mage, AoE, Etc) not to mention the ability to heal pets at a decent level just to restat to wear a freaking fist?

    It's the same basic concept as a HA veno; allow access to gear that an arcane veno can't use to take advantage of it. When done well, it allows for same level magic weapon and fists/claws. So it's mystical strength would be around the same as a HA veno.

    The extent some people go to obtain 4aps with it is a bit overkill though...
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Not fair! Melee have to heavily gimp their attack to do the same thing mages can do cheaper, faster, sooner! Mages are OP! Game is broke! -thanks for biting. =)

    you say that a mage will kill faster BHD than a 5aps sin/archer that will go fist BHD's *** in a few sec? hm, you have a point. if we also consider that 1+1=4 then ur proof makes sense.

    btw you always talk talk talk about ur ultra super pro way of gaining money without being a 5aps nor leaching in a 5aps squad; do u really know one or u just saw a wiz one-shot 50 mobs and though that he gets as much coins as a 5aps in fast nirvana runs?
    Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »
    Also, ive seen Sins, Clerics and Archers Solo Blackhole, its not hard, using a bow and potting once in a while for the LA and healing self for the AA, its no problem. You make it sound like its difficult.

    wut xd
  • XxZavxX - Raging Tide
    XxZavxX - Raging Tide Posts: 603 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    btw you always talk talk talk about ur ultra super pro way of gaining money without being a 5aps nor leaching in a 5aps squad; do u really know one or u just saw a wiz one-shot 50 mobs and though that he gets as much coins as a 5aps in fast nirvana runs?



    wut xd

    You are a noob if you think nirvana comes close to being the best way to make coins in game.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You don't see my point? Really? Why make a class that has to run up to something if you can dish out as much damage from far away? I'm not talking about this game in particular, I'm just talking about class balance in general. I didn't say melees should be able to deal 5x as much as ranged, I'm just saying there should be a distinction.
    You are delusional. b:chuckle

    Let's see. Can wizards AOE amplify damage? Can wizards AOE stun as fast as Roar? Do wizards have as much HP as BMs do? Do wizards have an antistun and sprint?

    No?

    If you don't like the fact that BMs have all sorts of assortment of skills that aren't specifically made for damage, or that they have more HP and not emphasis on damage... then roll a damage dealing class like a wizard? Since when are BMs and barbs supposed to be DDs and not support classes?

    Wizards are supposed to be DDs. It's like this in almost all western games. Deal with it.

    This game though... this one's broken. I'm glad I quit it, and seeing just how different FW is... same company and all that. It truly means this one is the one ****ing exception. Because of idiots like Traz who roll a tanking class and expect to outdps a damage dealing class and think it's normal.
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You are a noob if you think nirvana comes close to being the best way to make coins in game.

    ofc heavy cashoping > merch > nirvana; i was talking about a way that you actually play the game
  • XxZavxX - Raging Tide
    XxZavxX - Raging Tide Posts: 603 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ofc heavy cashoping > merch > nirvana; i was talking about a way that you actually play the game

    i wasn't talking about CSing or merching either...

    Nirvana still isn't the best thing to farm to make coins...
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »
    i wasn't talking about CSing or merching either...

    Nirvana still isn't the best thing to farm to make coins...

    i dont really think that delta, grinding or aoe grinding would be more profitable that a fast nirvana run; now if soloing 3-3/farming molds/books in 99/89/soloing WBs is more profitable than nirvana it doesnt really matter for me
  • Naivety - Harshlands
    Naivety - Harshlands Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    you say that a mage will kill faster BHD than a 5aps sin/archer that will go fist BHD's *** in a few sec? hm, you have a point. if we also consider that 1+1=4 then ur proof makes sense.

    btw you always talk talk talk about ur ultra super pro way of gaining money without being a 5aps nor leaching in a 5aps squad; do u really know one or u just saw a wiz one-shot 50 mobs and though that he gets as much coins as a 5aps in fast nirvana runs?



    wut xd

    Bad sentence structure, but it should be pretty clear I didnt mean the ****ing cleric should use a bow. We cant even cast with one >_>

    Mine was capable of holding General Summers Longbow for a while tho, with some special gears on :D

    And Tweaks, I didnt bite. Sins + Spark + Bow? They will still kill it faster than my cleric will, switching weapons for inner harmony - Wolf Emblem whenever they go off CD, theyl be sparking a pretty nice amount and hitting like a truck. Archers even better and faster.

    Equipping a bow =/= losing all your power. Sins deal rediculous damage with a bow compared to all but archers. Not that this is the point, but w/e
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

    And Tweaks, I didnt bite. Sins + Spark + Bow? They will still kill it faster than my cleric will, switching weapons for inner harmony - Wolf Emblem whenever they go off CD, theyl be sparking a pretty nice amount and hitting like a truck. Archers even better and faster.

    How does mdef of sin compare to mdef of wiz? Also, if archers that can out dmg my veno with a mere +10 TT99 weapon are few and far between: Sins with a bow even far more so compared to a harder hitting mage class. Mages can spark too. -lol

    Equipping a bow =/= losing all your power. Sins deal rediculous damage with a bow compared to all but archers. Not that this is the point, but w/e

    With a bow, why would a mage use a bow?

    An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange. -Surprisingly that's difficult for some to grasp.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Naivety - Harshlands
    Naivety - Harshlands Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    How does mdef of sin compare to mdef of wiz? Also, if archers that can out dmg my veno with a mere +10 TT99 weapon are few and far between: Sins with a bow even far more so compared to a harder hitting mage class. Mages can spark too. -lol




    With a bow, why would a mage use a bow?

    An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange. -Surprisingly that's difficult for some to grasp.

    And a Tweakz is an idiot. You purposely misunderstand the point to try and twist it to your own end.

    Mages cant spark for **** in comparison to anyone else. No matter what you do, the sin will out DD you.

    +10 TT99 wep? Niiiice. I have a +4 Neon Purgatory. Oh wait, THEY BOTH SUCK BALLS IN COMPARISON TO 4/5APS IN ALMOST ALL SITUATIONS.

    You talk about AoEs being where mage types have an advatage, and you are right, but AoEs take a lot of messing around and contain a considerable amount of risk of lags, not hitting with the high range, mobs being increased atk etc, increased lifes jumping you before they die (Ever had 4 jump on you at once? After dropping RF - Tempest and Sirens Kiss you tend not to expect it), as well as the annoying problem of fighting over the good spots (Admittedly less of a big deal on PvE servers) whenever you clash with someone elses wants and needs for grinding.

    4/5APSing a Nirvana run is a walk in the park. Point, spark, auto, finished. Occasionally run like hell if you get certain bosses.

    Quite simply, this is a broken PVE aspect of the game. Stop trying to defend it, we all know its broken and I/we seriously dont get how you do not understand it.

    If you try to bring up the PvP being an advantage and balencer for mage types I will cry. f2Ping a good mage and f2ping a good BM / Sin / Archer are 2 entirely different worlds since BMs Sins and Archers can have wonderful lives grinding Nirvana in 20 minutes flat compared to mage types having to "Yay grind".

    Results? Mage in okish +3-5 TT90/99 / LG gears vs Sin / BM / Archer with +6-10 APS built gears.

    In the same gear, yay mages, but Playing for free, or paying to play, mages take something like 10x the effort and time or money to get anywhere with and its still rediculous then.

    I dont care how much time you invested in getting your +10 Glaive btw, itd take an APS sin 1/5th of the time by most standards f2p wise.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »
    And a Tweakz is an idiot.

    Naivety makes sweet love to furry animals.
    You purposely misunderstand the point to try and twist it to your own end.

    You purposely twist poopoo and set it on a cone to make it look like icecream.
    Mages cant spark for **** in comparison to anyone else. No matter what you do, the sin will out DD you.

    That's why they're in such high demand in RB, Warsong, and OHT huh?b:chuckle
    +10 TT99 wep? Niiiice. I have a +4 Neon Purgatory. Oh wait, THEY BOTH SUCK BALLS IN COMPARISON TO 4/5APS IN ALMOST ALL SITUATIONS.

    One is a weapon, and one is an attack rate dumbutt.
    You talk about AoEs being where mage types have an advatage, and you are right, but AoEs take a lot of messing around and contain a considerable amount of risk of lags, not hitting with the high range, mobs being increased atk etc, increased lifes jumping you before they die (Ever had 4 jump on you at once? After dropping RF - Tempest and Sirens Kiss you tend not to expect it), as well as the annoying problem of fighting over the good spots (Admittedly less of a big deal on PvE servers) whenever you clash with someone elses wants and needs for grinding.

    Talk out your butt against it while I'm doing it dumbutt.
    I dont care how much time you invested in getting your +10 Glaive btw, itd take an APS sin 1/5th of the time by most standards f2p wise.

    This really shows your stupidity. You fail: You need the simplicity of non skilled 5aps to be of value in the game. Just because you suck doesn't mean we all do.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Naivety - Harshlands
    Naivety - Harshlands Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Naivety makes sweet love to furry animals.



    You purposely twist poopoo and set it on a cone to make it look like icecream.



    That's why they're in such high demand in RB, Warsong, and OHT huh?b:chuckle



    One is a weapon, and one is an attack rate dumbutt.



    Talk out your butt against it while I'm doing it dumbutt.



    This really shows your stupidity. You fail: You need the simplicity of non skilled 5aps to be of value in the game.

    Victory.

    /thread
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ofc heavy cashoping > merch > nirvana; i was talking about a way that you actually play the game

    You don't make coins off Nirvana w/o merching, or are you NPC'ing those cannies and raptures, and not paying people to help open Nirvana?

    Do people really think there's that many heavy cash shoppers in this game? Egos interfere with our sense of reality. -That's why there are so many who fail to grasp that some of us casters are as well off as 5aps w/o CS'ing. They couldn't do it; so how could anyone else? -lol Ego interferes with progression.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • jimburns96
    jimburns96 Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    jimburns96 wrote: »
    You made a baseless accusation of me doing some nefarious scheme to attack you instead of responding to my original point? Hmmmm? Usually those that have no sustanance to their argument try to turn the conversation personal.

    Only losers do that however I still am interested in a well thought out response to my points against your entire thesis of why 5 APS isn't broken. I can give you that one last chance to save face. There are hundreds of 4-5 APS toons on each of the 3 servers I play on yet not one 0% channeling veno has ever come foreward. I mean, that is the example you have chosen to 'prove' that the 5 APS and the ability to permaspark scheme is balanced and not broken. I'll be waiting......

    Still waiting for an answer, Tweakz .... where are all these 0% channeling venos to offset the 100s and soon to be over a 1000 5 APS permasparked DDs on each server that provide for a well balanced game as per your thesis? I mean, if it were balanced they would be as common as those APS toons, right?
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    You don't make coins off Nirvana w/o merching, or are you NPC'ing those cannies and raptures, and not paying people to help open Nirvana?

    did you seriously just equate merching and selling something to a catshop? please stop you're clueless
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Do people really think there's that many heavy cash shoppers in this game? Egos interfere with our sense of reality. -That's why there are so many who fail to grasp that some of us casters are as well off as 5aps w/o CS'ing. They couldn't do it; so how could anyone else? -lol Ego interferes with progression.

    erm, I'm all for looking at the bright side of each class and clinging desperatley to the specialization for dear life, but do how casters stack up to 5aps again?

    Tell me, a wizard, how I can keep up with 5aps, or how I'm "as well off as 5aps."

    Tell me!!! b:angryb:cry
  • Jadsia - Lost City
    Jadsia - Lost City Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It's the same basic concept as a HA veno; allow access to gear that an arcane veno can't use to take advantage of it. When done well, it allows for same level magic weapon and fists/claws. So it's mystical strength would be around the same as a HA veno.

    The extent some people go to obtain 4aps with it is a bit overkill though...

    Maybe but it still nerfs most of the veno's most powerful attack skills which are magic based not to mention the pet healing. I am a HA veno and I still have about 81% of my base mag damage as a full arcane. I can switch between HH 90 heavy armor and rank 8 arcane while using my rank 8 weapon with either. Took a little creativity with other gears and distributing stat points but it works great.

    Here is a close representation of my stats at level 100:

    Heavy armor http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b9aa93bb369f255b

    Arcane http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d353493b15ef6128

    And if I wanted full arcane stats with my Warsoul helmet http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8acddce492b2c447
    I **** bigger than you...

    Shut up and play the game.....Damn
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    lol @ merching = selling stuff i farmed in my catshop
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »
    erm, I'm all for looking at the bright side of each class and clinging desperatley to the specialization for dear life, but do how casters stack up to 5aps again?

    Tell me, a wizard, how I can keep up with 5aps, or how I'm "as well off as 5aps."

    Tell me!!! b:angryb:cry

    no, only enlighted people like tweakz can find ways that a wiz can earn as much coins as a 5aps char and he cannot reveal it. just trust him and stop qq'ing about 5aps earning millions.
  • Tigriss_o - Raging Tide
    Tigriss_o - Raging Tide Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Damn Yall still arguing about this? Just let the 5APSers think it isn't broken and think their good. At least we have the satisfaction in being able to play something that takes actual skill.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    no, only enlighted people like tweakz can find ways that a wiz can earn as much coins as a 5aps char and he cannot reveal it. just trust him and stop qq'ing about 5aps earning millions.

    It's just not fair, how did HE find it out before me b:cry
    Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »
    At least we have the satisfaction in being able to play something that takes actual skill.

    erm...incoming serious question

    are you trolling/joking? or do you really think this game takes skill?

    Honest question, so I want an honest answer
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Damn Yall still arguing about this? Just let the 5APSers think it isn't broken and think their good. At least we have the satisfaction in being able to play something that takes actual skill.

    5.0 takes no skill compared to veno? lolwut

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