My concerns, Frankie.
Comments
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Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »since when do the accusatory have to prove anything to the accused? that is quite bass ackward if i do say so myself. if you are so dead set on proving you are what you claim, then do so. why do i have to do the research for you? -you- are the one with a finger pointed at you, all you do is pile more evidence against yourself each time you make a response. more and more frustration, more and more insults.
you continue to go on and on about support, support in what? some stranger agrees with your opinion, suddenly its +1 more weigh in validness against everyone else? who gives a rats ***, really? 'i got more support bawwwww' grow up.
you obviously failed to grasp innuendo yesterday, maybe you need hard explaination...
Who is the one being insulting here?
Who was the first person to claim somebody was jealous? Who's the first person between us calling the other a troll? I assure you, it's not me. I don't need to come on here and post yet again that I have spoken to and was speaking to everybody in your signature. I don't need to prove it to a non-believer who accuses me of being jealous and being a troll because she can't handle what I say and because, on noes, she doesn't like me.
I'm not being accused of anything aside from being a troll, by the likes of somebody who has just been quite belittling, insulting, and very troll like herself.
Tell me, why do I need to prove anything, when you prove what you are quite perfectly?
I'm through with you, my dear. You were the first to point fingers and call names between us, I was not. I made a logical response to your post explaining details and all you could do was turn around and accuse me of being a troll some more, despite the fact there is evidence in front of you I am not. You have proven everything anybody and everybody needs to know yourself, and I do not need to do it for you.
If people want to think I'm a troll because they're butthurt they weren't one of the originals? That's fine by me, you think that. I know exactly who I am, what I posted and when, and who I've spoken to. And at the end of the day, that means I know a damned lot more then you do, Aisubeki.
I challenged you to go and confirm your theories and talk to the same people and prove your argument. All you did was prove you yourself are a troll who can do nothing but point fingers, call names, and get butthurt some more that I wasn't banned for a post you didn't like.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Who says they were blind? A person can only take a certain amount of frustration before he/she bursts.Siege - Dreamweaver wrote: »While I agree with the bold part of your post, PWE deserves no better. Somewhere along the line the GMs and the devs decided it was ok to treat the community like idiots. For a while people dealt with that fact, so are you telling me you did not see this coming with the way things have been for the past 2 or so weeks?
PWE has provided the community with TONS of ammo. They turned a blind eye to so many issues and the TT issues was FINALLY answered after all the raging that has been done. So there's a little victory there. Still there are many issues that go unanswered and Kantorek who is one of the people that contributed to this flame fest has yet to say **** and try to calm people down. He decided to be a big *** baby and let Frankie clean up his mess while he goes and plays around with the money in his fat *** pockets.
This whole mess in my opinion is well deserved. Like I said, they deserve no better. You give people **** and you get **** in return.0 -
Siege - Dreamweaver wrote: »This whole mess in my opinion is well deserved. Like I said, they deserve no better. You give people **** and you get **** in return.
An eye for an eye makes the world go blind.
I didn't post any of my threads for the sheer hope that everyone would call me a hero. I felt it needed to be said; after GMs and mods ignored my original post, I did say **** you staff, because how else do you get the attention of them if it's not bold and size 7? I was actually surprised and flattered when people posted in my thread that I was being admired and stuff, but that definitely wasn't the reason I did it. I didn't post in the mod thing, because after I read who was mod I basically facepalm'd and walked away from the computer. Next day I skimmed it, read NightRage's Negativity thread and asked around. This lead to my civilized post, but when it was ignored, like I stated earlier, I did lash out at the staff. I do not feel remorse for it, and I'm not expected to be put in the same boat as the original gang who did all this.
Ijs
now it's time for work b:cute0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Apparently someone thinks very highly of himself. I saw a woman die last week, she didn't save anyone and she had no cause, she was just fighting for her life against a group of cowards with a gun. She was more of a hero than you'll likely ever know in your life. A bunch of clowns out to get banned from a posting forum are not heroes whatever their cause may have been. The sole idea is so beyond pathetic it actually crosses the line into being offensive.
What's the point then? If you're just going to get ignored and there's no reasoning with this people why are you still here? I'm trying to give you a fair chance to explain yourself. What you're doing is not going to help change the game and it only makes the enviroment for those of us who stay here so much worse. Why are you doing this?
Agreed, though instead of finding offensive I just don't think people on the internet should really be called "heros" The people who spoke out are more along the lines of rebels, since they spoke out against the the forum staff.
I'm doing this because I've never been one to take thing laying down. If I don't like something and feel it's unfair then I'll go against it. People have spoken out, tried to be heard, tried to have an impact on how the forums are managed, and failed. The time for trying to change things is passed.0 -
Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »since when do the accusatory have to prove anything to the accused? that is quite bass ackward if i do say so myself.
Its called innocent until proven guilty. You might want to look it up as its what our entire legal system is founded on. The accuser has to prove their claim about the one being accused. So yes, if you accuse someone, the burden of proof is on YOU.0 -
Caoijmhe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Who says they were blind? A person can only take a certain amount of frustration before he/she bursts.
The unstickied TW Rules thread says that. You know, the thread where a ton of people asked for clarification and all it got was a sticky removal? Yeah that one.0 -
chaoticrampage wrote: »I'm doing this because I've never been one to take thing laying down.
Ok, this i can respect. But what i'll ask you to consider is that you should fight for the right cause even if you consider it lost. Why? Because there's no honor in simply lashing out regardless of what consequences this may have for others. If you're going to stick around then do so for the comunity even if there's nothing in it for you anymore. Because if you don't it doesn't matter if i respect your reasons or how resonable your posting may be, you're just as much a part of the problem as the forum staff.0 -
court of law doesnt account for how real life situations work out sadly.Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »Its called innocent until proven guilty. You might want to look it up as its what our entire legal system is founded on. The accuser has to prove their claim about the one being accused. So yes, if you accuse someone, the burden of proof is on YOU.
this situation would be more like... say someone new moves to town, they want to impress the locals, and lie about themselves. one local finds it suspicious, and demands they prove it. burden of proof lies in the accused not the accuser.
EDIT: and wafflechan thinks this poster is a big fat stupid doody head, and needs to stop posting while im gone, gtfo.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
remember our fallen heroes0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Ok, this i can respect. But what i'll ask you to consider is that you should fight for the right cause even if you consider it lost. Why? Because there's no honor in simply lashing out regardless of what consequences this may have for others. If you're going to stick around then do so for the comunity even if there's nothing in it for you anymore. Because if you don't it doesn't matter if i respect your reasons or how resonable your posting may be, you're just as much a part of the problem as the forum staff.
I'm not lashing out, have you read the posts I've made recently? Where have I lashed out at the forums staff or anyone else that hasn't trolled my thread? I've done what I could to keep my posts to the point, on topic, and thought them out instead of just blindly raging at someone. (I don't include the 106 page thread in that, it wasn't meant to become what it did.)
I'm not doing this for honor, I'm doing this because the forum staff needs to get their damn act together. If I had the option I'd take a Mod position, take all the hate of the playerbase, and do whatever I could to earn their respect and show them what needs to be done. Obviously I'm not someone that people would want in that position, but if I had it I'd do what I could to actually HELP the forum population instead of just locking/moving threads in a poor fashion as the new Mods have been doing.
If I could solve this problem or help to solve it I would, but I don't seem to have the power to do so. As I've said, the forums are pretty much beyond saving at this point.0 -
Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »court of law doesnt account for how real life situations work out sadly.
this situation would be more like... say someone new moves to town, they want to impress the locals, and lie about themselves. one local finds it suspicious, and demands they prove it. burden of proof lies in the accused not the accuser.
Actually, in a court of law, much as in academic debate, the burden of proof lies in those who state something to be fact or truth, regarless of whether they're the prosection, hold tenure, etc. Testimony in itself is never considered proof, although sound reason may be.0 -
yay for aisubeki being stupid!MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually, in a court of law, much as in academic debate, the burden of proof lies in those who state something to be fact or truth, regarless of whether they're the prosection, hold tenure, etc. Testimony in itself is never considered proof, although sound reason may be.0 -
frankieraye wrote: »These moderators have mod experience, play pwi, and have been on these particular forums for some time (and lurking does count for this).
I agree with you, the PWI forums have not received the love and care that they need over the past few months. It has been neglected, having had only two people looking after it-- AryannaMage and myself. That is why we have new mods. Shelly's statement that "we're here to do what should have been done long ago" was referring to this.
Shelly and Grim are your mods. There will be more in the future (obviously we need one in a USA time zone), but for now, it's these two. They just started, so it will take some time and guidance before they fit in comfortably. Hopefully you can all give them this chance and keep in the back of your minds that they will only get better at their jobs.
You say you want mods you know. You will get to know these mods. You didn't know Aryannamage, Hawk, Gattsuru, or Andracil when they first started either. In fact, the only mod who you guys knew beforehand was Konari, who, though he was known as a forum spammer, still had a lot of support in his campaign to become a mod.
Thank you for taking the time to answer in the insanity that has now become the forums. I guess it took you a bit to come around and respond. So here's my small thoughts on the matter (and I promise I won't bite-just nibble >:3 )
Lurking is a good way to start getting to know the feel of a community without having to engage in it so this can work both for and against them. By lurking it guarantees that they aren't involved in any kind of posts that could degenerate into flames or say anything out of line that can be called into question later. But at the same time, it also counts as a "strike" if you will-that because they lurk and have no tangible posting experience that they "don't understand the forums". Essentially, they can be seen as incompetent simply because there is no post proof to judge how they will react in certain situations.
As far as Shelly and Grim go-I know they're new etc. Their background had experiences have been called into question and rightfully so as they are Community Moderators and when the background is lacking or is questionable, it does raises concerns. It's entirely natural for people to want to know, especially when new people are put into positions of power. They seek for tangible evidence of how they are (by looking for forums posts etc.) and when they do not find this information or when responses are made that come off the wrong way, it can throw a bunch of people into a furry (as you've already seen). Their first impressions also did not weigh too favorably-Grims posts a bit in the Arch forums, warning about flaming (which if he had been there for "Of Mice and Men" thread there he wouldn't be calling the other threads in there flames-he'd be calling them sparks) Edits someone's post in the newbie thread about a rule concerning other MMO's/versions of PW (which the enforcement of that confuses me, seeing as how people reference MY/CN all the time on the forums-so enforcement in one place should naturally follow to all threads. Which is nearly 60-80% of most responses XD) among other things. Some of the things Shelly posts has spunk to them and a character to them, I'll give that much-but what can seem like her personality and not being "robotic" can come off as *insert various descriptors here that are unfavorable*
Previous mods do engage the forums goers and as such left their impressions that lead up to built up trust for them. First impressions dictate alot and even more so online where you can't see the person's face. No, I wont claim to know every nock and cranny of the forums, but even as a active participant of the forums, even the above observations can be made in a reasonable span of time. Thanks again for taking time out to post and I hope you get around to responding to this as well as many other questions that everyone has for you.
/buysyouacospalyoutfittorunawayfromforumgoersTamias-
The Dealer at your service b:cute0 -
I'm sick of all the spam.
You guys just lost all credibility after that spamming session(s). Take this thread for example. Regardless whether it is "legitimate" or expresses "valid" concerns, it's just too much after that ****. Hell, I'm not even a mod and I am already sick of all the threads in general discussion, I can only imagine what the GMs and mods have to go through.
You all act like a bunch of kids "he, Mr.X got banned for Y" *makes thread the same way* "QQ why I didn't get banned too like Mr.X? Seriously frankie? PROOF THAT THIS IS UNFAIR."
If you act like kids don't expect the GMs or mods to treat your threads or "valid" questions any differently.
And I would appreciate if you wouldn't speak in the name of the whole community, because you couple of guys aren't. As much as I agree with some of your points, some of it is just plain stupid. You guys realize you're not the center of the community, right?0 -
You guys made the forum worse.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh0 -
you guys DO know that the only sub forum thats out of control right now is the general forum right? the rest of the sub forums are perfectly fine and dandy...
its the people constantly posting and instigating thats making these forums worst. that is probaly why frankie told the mods to leave the GENERAL forums alone specifically. u people made the forums worst.
and like i said, if u want proof look at the general, then look at the rest of the forums like class discussion and etc. not only that but just last week general was fine as well.
basically, you know what this turned into? a bunch of freedom fighters fighting for a freedom they ALREADY have.
leave the ****ing topic alone and let there be peace in these forums ok? rageknight and chaotic stop making these damn threads. there annoying, pointless, and not getting anything accomplished. all its doing is putting oil to the fire, thats ALL its doing. with out your threads these forums will be fine.0 -
chaoticrampage wrote: »If Mods were online during the time the thread why was it not closed sooner? I'd also like to know just why Shelly responded to me with "Maybe we have a reason for not closing it sooner?" What would that reason be? If there's a reason for not closing a thread like that immediately I'd love to know what it is.
maybe the mods was afk or offline! ur the one who made the stuped thread in the first place
faile troll is fail, flame on u shi... b:angry0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »you guys DO know that the only sub forum thats out of control right now is the general forum right? the rest of the sub forums are perfectly fine and dandy...
its the people constantly posting and instigating thats making these forums worst. that is probaly why frankie told the mods to leave the GENERAL forums alone specifically. u people made the forums worst.
and like i said, if u want proof look at the general, then look at the rest of the forums like class discussion and etc. not only that but just last week general was fine as well.
basically, you know what this turned into? a bunch of freedom fighters fighting for a freedom they ALREADY have.
Try again.0 -
actually Stinky, they was some form of higher-up or w/e on when the thread was made. It was proven by posts being 'secretly' resized and 'secretly' deleted...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thankiez to Dorset for the sig!
MagicHamsta will remain in our hearts forever
P.S. I am a female venomancer ^^ I know it's rare, isn't it?0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »I'm sick of all the spam.
You guys just lost all credibility after that spamming session(s). Take this thread for example. Regardless whether it is "legitimate" or expresses "valid" concerns, it's just too much after that ****. Hell, I'm not even a mod and I am already sick of all the threads in general discussion, I can only imagine what the GMs and mods have to go through.
You all act like a bunch of kids "he, Mr.X got banned for Y" *makes thread the same way* "QQ why I didn't get banned too like Mr.X? Seriously frankie? PROOF THAT THIS IS UNFAIR."
If you act like kids don't expect the GMs or mods to treat your threads or "valid" questions any differently.
And I would appreciate if you wouldn't speak in the name of the whole community, because you couple of guys aren't. As much as I agree with some of your points, some of it is just plain stupid. You guys realize you're not the center of the community, right?
How am I spamming? (Unless you're not directing that at me because the post came right after mine XD) This is the first time I ever came to post in this thread and I came in quoted what Frankie said and put something that's tbh the least ragey thing in here (aside form the small jokes here and there about Frakie being a girl/boy and having a veno avi) They don't speak for me, I speak on my own terms. Perhaps they have spoken to dozens of others who just wont be as vocal as them and put out their opinions as well (I've seen that alot on other forums). If said people don't want to be categorized in this "you guys community thing" then invite them to say their piece then leave-but chances are they're probably too afraid to simply because they'll be accused of trolling or being incompetent from whichever side they argue on. (one side for being cry babbies/none helpful to GM/spamers on the other side for being an idot/blind/not being on the forums.)
So please don't lump me into the "you all" junk and shoot the innocent bystander XD I swear Im not a prime drive by shooter target...b:shockedRoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »You guys made the forum worse.
<---had better not be lumped into this infamous "you guys" part.Tamias-
The Dealer at your service b:cute0 -
Siege - Dreamweaver wrote: »Try again.
no, because these forums have gotten out of hand because idiots decided to pool together and start a war in general like immature brats just because of views they do not like. its getting ridiculous.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »I'm sick of all the spam.
You guys just lost all credibility after that spamming session(s). Take this thread for example. Regardless whether it is "legitimate" or expresses "valid" concerns, it's just too much after that ****. Hell, I'm not even a mod and I am already sick of all the threads in general discussion, I can only imagine what the GMs and mods have to go through.
You all act like a bunch of kids "he, Mr.X got banned for Y" *makes thread the same way* "QQ why I didn't get banned too like Mr.X? Seriously frankie? PROOF THAT THIS IS UNFAIR."
If you act like kids don't expect the GMs or mods to treat your threads or "valid" questions any differently.
And I would appreciate if you wouldn't speak in the name of the whole community, because you couple of guys aren't. As much as I agree with some of your points, some of it is just plain stupid. You guys realize you're not the center of the community, right?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This 100%0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »no, because these forums have gotten out of hand because idiots decided to pool together and start a war in general like immature brats just because of views they do not like. its getting ridiculous.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This 100%
PWE got out of hand and now so has their forums. How people are amazed by this really is confusing.0 -
Siege - Dreamweaver wrote: »PWE got out of hand and now so has their forums. How people are amazed by this really is confusing.
uh no, SOME people did not like the change and decide to speak out against it, ignoring the people that did like the changes.
like borscu said, do not speak for the entire community. some people still enjoy this game, enjoy how its run, and actually beleive that its NOT dead. yet the people that beleive it is dead want to run rampant around the forums trying to prove there own PERSONAL OPINION of the game?
BSb:bye0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »uh no, SOME people did not like the change and decide to speak out against it, ignoring the people that did like the changes.
like borscu said, do not speak for the entire community. some people still enjoy this game, enjoy how its run, and actually beleive that its NOT dead. yet the people that beleive it is dead want to run rampant around the forums trying to prove there own PERSONAL OPINION of the game?
BSb:bye
The change? Want to be a bit more specific. It sounds to me like you have no idea what began this whole flame fest in the first place.0 -
For the people that say PM Frankie
I tried to be civil about Pming him with quotes of the arrogance of the Mods, and the thread Grim posted in basically cybering with a person in the off topic sectioin. Those PMs were ignored. Instead of answering my PMs he quoted where I raged to when months ago and stated. "I dont ignore any post or PM". If You dont, we would have answers for
What did Kanto mean when he said "The people that are nit picking are the ones that break the rules" in the TW Bidding Rules?
Why was grim made mod just 3 days after this thread that goes for 8 pages of basically cyber sex
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh224/Winbutternuts/taste.jpg
Why not ask people who are a part of the community that was respected and told the truth?
You say you dont ignore people's post? Prove it. Say something damn...0 -
im sure a mod cant be on the forums for more then 8 hours a day thats like a full time job.
im sure its like 1~2hours for ea mod. only a few ppl can really be on forum for up to 4 hours and 4 hours are SICK toying around locking/moving little kids stuped threads!
im sure even moding the forums for 1~2 hours is like mad boring,
when its ur job to do its not fun any more0 -
I'm not exactly saying the game is fun or unbroken or anything -- it's irrelevant to the subject.
I'm only commenting on how you guys chose to "debate" or "protest" against this. You guys made the forums worse, not the mods. You acted like kids, don't expect to be treated differently even while posting a valid thread like this one.
Basically you just dug a deeper hole in the forums than they already were, then when you try to climb back up you realize you just got yourself too deep into the hole and can't get back up anymore.
No XD I was talking to the thread at hand, mainly to the OP. Sorry I should have specified but I thought lack of quote and using "you guys" as in plural would make it a bit obvious. b:surrenderTamias - Archosaur wrote: »How am I spamming? (Unless you're not directing that at me because the post came right after mine XD) This is the first time I ever came to post in this thread and I came in quoted what Frankie said and put something that's tbh the least ragey thing in here (aside form the small jokes here and there about Frakie being a girl/boy and having a veno avi) They don't speak for me, I speak on my own terms. Perhaps they have spoken to dozens of others who just wont be as vocal as them and put out their opinions as well (I've seen that alot on other forums). If said people don't want to be categorized in this "you guys community thing" then invite them to say their piece then leave-but chances are they're probably too afraid to simply because they'll be accused of trolling or being incompetent from whichever side they argue on. (one side for being cry babbies/none helpful to GM/spamers on the other side for being an idot/blind/not being on the forums.)
So please don't lump me into the "you all" junk and shoot the innocent bystander XD I swear Im not a prime drive by shooter target...b:shocked0 -
Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »How am I spamming? (Unless you're not directing that at me because the post came right after mine XD) This is the first time I ever came to post in this thread and I came in quoted what Frankie said and put something that's tbh the least ragey thing in here (aside form the small jokes here and there about Frakie being a girl/boy and having a veno avi) They don't speak for me, I speak on my own terms. Perhaps they have spoken to dozens of others who just wont be as vocal as them and put out their opinions as well (I've seen that alot on other forums). If said people don't want to be categorized in this "you guys community thing" then invite them to say their piece then leave-but chances are they're probably too afraid to simply because they'll be accused of trolling or being incompetent from whichever side they argue on. (one side for being cry babbies/none helpful to GM/spamers on the other side for being an idot/blind/not being on the forums.)
So please don't lump me into the "you all" junk and shoot the innocent bystander XD I swear Im not a prime drive by shooter target...b:shocked
<---had better not be lumped into this infamous "you guys" part.
I don't know about the least "ragey thing in this thread" all of my posts have been trying to more or less remain neutral until the sandstorm passes over. Right now it seems like we are in the eye of the storm over this whole ordeal, with no end in sight for a couple of days. =x
I do get what you are trying to do, but I am afraid it is futile, as Airyll pointed out as of right now this is an angry mob, and their is no convincing them that what they are doing is the wrong way to go about getting a change, after all both sides are making good strong valid points. Trying to convince a mob that they have flawed logic is like trying to convince a person that refuses to see the world in a different view of things, it just is NOT going to happen, you would be better off just sitting back and watching where the **** falls, and hope you have an umbrella when all is said and done. =x (not pointing fingers at anyone)Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »uh no, SOME people did not like the change and decide to speak out against it, ignoring the people that did like the changes.
like borscu said, do not speak for the entire community. some people still enjoy this game, enjoy how its run, and actually beleive that its NOT dead. yet the people that beleive it is dead want to run rampant around the forums trying to prove there own PERSONAL OPINION of the game?
BSb:bye
Like I said earlier I speak for myself. And like I said earlier, there could have been people who are not as vocal who have decided to talk to the "more vocal" forum goers and as such their opinions were expressed by said people. Why people missed my post is beyond me b:surrender
And yes there are people who either don't care about the changes or agree with them but you don't speak for them either, if we take what you're saying and apply it both ways. (unless of course non-vocal people have approached you to be a sort of spokesman for them, if you will. Whcih in that case, is completely different.)Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »no, because these forums have gotten out of hand because idiots decided to pool together and start a war in general like immature brats just because of views they do not like. its getting ridiculous.
b:shocked last I checked I'm not an idiot, nor an immature brat. I hate name calling when both sides are getting out of hand with it (see my previous post, which I hope you do, on what I say would probably happen if someone spoke for one side or another)
@ Slivaf- Oh and of course you too XD I think I skipped that cause it WAS not as ragey lol. And my umbrella's lock is all messed up, mind running out and buying me a new one before this all hits? b:surrenderTamias-
The Dealer at your service b:cute0 -
StinkyFish - Lost City wrote: »im sure a mod cant be on the forums for more then 8 hours a day thats like a full time job.
im sure its like 1~2hours for ea mod. only a few ppl can really be on forum for up to 4 hours and 4 hours are SICK toying around locking/moving little kids stuped threads!
im sure even moding the forums for 1~2 hours is like mad boring,
when its ur job to do its not fun any more
The fact is, there WAS someone on, and they decided to let a **** thread go on for 106 pages[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thankiez to Dorset for the sig!
MagicHamsta will remain in our hearts forever
P.S. I am a female venomancer ^^ I know it's rare, isn't it?0 -
Some people have also stated peaceful protesting never got us anywhere. Just sayin'.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
This discussion has been closed.
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