New TW pay system

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

This doesn't work out as you say. I mean seriously, no one +12 their weapon to grind faster... it's mostly used for PvP purposes. Which just has fun aspect... no real production or anything.

It doesn't count when a wiz drops his Lunar wep and ring and you sell those? Aww man that sucks. b:chuckle

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

This doesn't work out as you say. I mean seriously, no one +12 their weapon to grind faster... it's mostly used for PvP purposes. Which just has fun aspect... no real production or anything.

It doesn't have to be a +12 weapon. As long as the TT90 weapon you're selling provides the buyer with more utility than his TT80 weapon, he gains from the transaction.

You're trying to create an economy based on "unit of hard work" as a monetary unit. But that's the economy we have right now. Per hour of "hard work" grinding that I do, I can make about 300k. All other valuations for mats, equipment, and gold are based on the relative difficulty* of acquiring those things relative to obtaining them via different ways. *(By "difficulty" I mean how much people are willing to put up with it, not necessarily how much actual physical work or mental gymnastics it entails.)

For example, the cost of gold is based on the relative difficulty to earn RL dollars in a RL job, vs. spending hours in the game. For whatever reason, players on average have decided that a RL job is 10x "harder" than grinding in the game. So for 1 hour of work in the real world I can make $7.25, which can be converted into 7.25 gold, which can be sold for 2.9 million coin. 1 hour of work grinding in the game gets me about 300k. Almost exactly 1/10th.

If the money you can make from certain tasks differs from what you think those tasks should be worth, it doesn't mean there's a problem with the game economy. It simply means that your opinion of what those tasks should be worth differs significantly from what the players on average have decided what those tasks should be worth.

Now onto merchanting. The problem with merchanting, by itself, is that it's not productive. It doesn't increase the GDP or the GDP per capita.

That's just another "economics is a zero-sum game" argument. Merchanting is productive (I will grant you certain types of merchanting are not). It does add value to the economy.

- When I started merchanting, I set up a cat shop buying DQ mats next to the merchant at Silver Pool. People who would've sold the DQ mats they got from grinding to the NPC (at which point they disappear from the game completely), instead made more money by selling them to me. I then took those DQs to Archosaur and sold them there. The people who bought from my store got lower prices because I increased the level of competition there and thus lowered market prices.

The person who sold the DQ to me made more money. The person who bought the DQ from me spent less money. I made money. We all came out of the situation better than if I hadn't been merchanting - it is not zero-sum.

- Likewise, the same happens when a merchant buys during a sale and sells after the sale is over. The merchant paid less for the materials he's selling. The person buying from him paid less than if he'd bought the stuff himself directly from the cash shop. Both the merchant and buyer come out of the situation better than if there hadn't been a merchant.

- If I do TT and get enough mats to make two TT90 weapons, only the first weapon provides value to me. The second duplicates the function of the first so it's worthless to me. Now say there's another person who doesn't have a TT90 weapon yet but wants one. The total value of the system is 1 TT90 weapon, 1 decorative icon in my inventory, and a bunch of coin on the second person.

Now say I merchant the extra TT90 weapon. He pays me the bunch of coin for it. The total value of the system is now 2 TT90 weapons, 0 decorative icons in my inventory, and a bunch of coin which no happens to be on my person. If you assume a TT90 weapon in use is worth more than a decorative icon (a pretty good assumption), then the GDP of the overall system has increased.

On an individual level, my wealth, my per capital GDP* has gone up. I went from 1 weapon, 1 worthless icon, and 0 coin; to 1 weapon and a bunch of coin. To me the coin was worth more than the worthless icon. The buyer went from no weapon and a bunch of coin to 1 weapon and no coin. But he only completed the sale because he felt the weapon was worth more than the coin. So his wealth has also gone up. *(I'm misusing the term here, since GDP refers to a rate while wealth refers to a quantity.)

- I take coin to the auctioneer, place a bid to buy gold (and risk losing 2% should the bid never be completed), use the gold to buy a cash shop item, and put the cash shop item on my shop at a slight markup (and risk the price of gold dropping to where I have to sell the items at a loss). A buyer comes along, browses my shop, and buys the item from me. He has made a decision that the markup I put on the price is worth paying so he can avoid going through the trouble and risk I did to buy the item from the cash shop. He gets the item more easily (savings of time-money and less risk to him), I lose time but make money. We both come out ahead.

- Warren sets up a shop selling dull claws next to the NPC who gives out the level 30 flyer. He makes a single trip there to stock his shop, and prices them at 8k each (significantly higher than the price in Archosaur of 5k). Overnight a dozen people buy from him. Why? Because it is worth it to them. They got to that stage of the quest, and found out they need 5 dull claws. They know they can get them from Archo for 25k. But they looked at Warren's price of 40k, and decided that it wasn't worth the time to run back to Archosaur, find a shop selling the claws, buy them, and run back just to save 15k.

I completely agree with them too - you can make 15k in just a few minutes grinding. Why spend half an hour doing all that running around? Just buy from Warren, get your flyer immediately, and go grind for a few minutes to make back the extra cost. The net result is you have your flyer and just as much money in the bank in 5-10 minutes, as opposed to 30 minutes. It's stupid not to buy from him.

Yet people decry him for charging rip-off prices. He didn't rip off those people - they properly weighed the costs, and determined it was cheaper for them to buy the dull claws from Warren than to run back to Archo and buy them. Could they have gotten the claws for cheaper if they had read about the quest and known they would need the claws? Sure. But the fact that they didn't is not Warren's fault. They got themselves into a situation where getting the claws themselves would probably cost 100k worth of time lost. Warren is simply providing them a means to escape that situation at a mere 15k in cost. If you decry him and force him to quit selling there, you are condemning those people to pay the 100k in lost time instead of a mere 15k which goes into Warren's pocket. You are reducing the economy's productivity and GDP.

From a productivity standpoint, Warren makes a single trip to the site each day to stock his shop. By buying from his shop, a dozen players don't have to make a dozen trips between there and Archo and back. If you figure they can grind 200k/hr, then for a mere 15k premium, Warren has increased their productivity by 100k, or 1.2 million overall that day for the entire server. And for that he merely charged the server a 180k fee. He made 180k, the server made 1.2 million. Win-win.

So merchanting is productive and except in certain rare cases does increase the GDP. You're mistakenly assuming that a piece of equipment stashed in someone's bank or sold to an NPC has the same value as if it were sold to a player who wants it. That's simply not true. There's tremendous productivity and value to be gained by distributing such unused goods to people who would use them, and where they need them. That's what a merchant does for the economy - helps distribute stuff

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Let me explain my view on the "economy" as whole (dedicated to Rawrgh :P).

To avoid confusion I'll start with a few concepts and examples. Let's use examples from real world to make things easier to grasp.

What defines a good economy? Let's look at 2 examples. Does Mexico have a good economy? It has/had the richest person on earth. In PWI terms we can say, it has a person with warsoul! Is its economy good? You'd be crazy to say so.

Now, let's look at total amount in an economy. Does China have a good economy? It sure ranks high for the total, but how many chinese say their standard of living is good? Its standard of living is far below western countries.

So definitely, select few rich people or total economy amount (i.e GDP) does not make a good standard of living or "good economy" in MMORPG terms.

No, you see, what we need to look for is GDP per capita.


Now comes the important part. Suppose "standard of living" is +12 refines, and let's assume that costs $2000 (just example btw).

There will be lazy people, of course, who will charge zen, but it doesn't change the fact that as a "hard worker" in game you need to get it from someone who charged. The obvious issue here is that, if you want the GDP per capita (of end-game people) to be +12, then there must be at least $2000 charged per person.

The costs don't have to be equally split among each person, of course, but if a person pays $100 only and gets +12, and all others pay $2000 except 1, then the last one must pay at least $3900...

as you can see, it is an insane amount of money. If you say that everyone can work hard towards +12... you must understand that a lot of money has to be charged for this freaking game.

I mean, I can understand development costs and all... but $2000 per person on average is absurd in this case. That would cover 11 freaking years for a $15/month subscription game.

Subscriptions games show this easier because everyone pays the same amount, so it is much easier to calculate the "GDP per capita" as far as "charging" or "paying" RL money goes.


What is needed here, for the hard working players, is the chance to get certain boutique items without buying it off from someone else. Celestial Tiger event might be on this path (although the Public-Quest system makes it kinda unaffordable for everyone but the top participants), but we also need refining aid drops or something.

Not saying that these have to be easy to acquire... but a different method of acquiring them than just charging zen. Hell, they could be on-par to "farm" as buying gold... but at least it ensures that we don't have to charge such insane amounts of money, whether it's me or my rich neighbour, just to make sure someone can get +12. Yes, buying it off other players is charging zen since they come from there in the first place!



Now onto merchanting. The problem with merchanting, by itself, is that it's not productive. It doesn't increase the GDP or the GDP per capita. It's like in thermodynamics. You can make your house cooler with an air conditioner, but in reality, you're just moving the heat from your home to outside!

Merchanting does nothing but move the money from someone to someone else... Sounds sweet when you are a few exclusive people, but it cannot, by definition, work for everybody. Because if everybody merchants, then it becomes normal trade...

Merchanting is what I'd call "Mexico's situation" with richest person but poor standard of living overall.

This doesn't work out as you say. I mean seriously, no one +12 their weapon to grind faster... it's mostly used for PvP purposes. Which just has fun aspect... no real production or anything.

You're implying that anyone cares about what "everyone" has, or what the "standard" is.


The fact is, I don't, and no one but you does. You're over here btching and crying about how merchanting doesn't increase what everyone has but... WHO THE HELL CARES?


Are you saying I should be running out giving coins to everyone so they can have a higher "standard"?


If my gear is better than others, then that's great, makes TW all that much easier for me.


Use +1 gear for all I care I will be enjoying my nice 30mil+ equps and soon my nice lunar wep as soon as I restat.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

massive wall of comprehension error text

/facepalm of immense proportions

The costs don't have to be equally split among each person, of course, but if a person pays $100 only and gets +12, and all others pay $2000 except 1, then the last one must pay at least $3900...

I mean, I can understand development costs and all... but $2000 per person on average is absurd in this case. That would cover 11 freaking years for a $15/month subscription game.

Do you even have a clue why your logic is so horribly wrong? Do you even get it? Just... wow.

Many people will spend money on this game for whatever reason. If they chose to put it in the AH, then it is available to whomever buys it. Your logic that if one person doesn't pay for a +12 refine another person will instead have to pay $3k instead of $2k is just idiotic. Someone who doesn't pay for a +12 refine and earns it in game because MANY people have decided to purchase gold and make it available to whomever wishes to purchase it for whatever reason.

Please, put on your dunce cap and leave PWI. b:bye

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

At least you've shown your true colors.

You don't care about "the economy". You just care about your own pockets. You said that yourself.

I still don't understand why you even bother arguing with me then when I'm specifically talking about the "standard of living" in this game... I don't give a rat's **** about your pocket specifically... instead I get flamed for trying to improve this standard of living.

Would you do the same in a RL economy?

Of course you talk nonsense again. Not sure if you deliberately miss my points or are just plain stupid, because apparently mathematics is something you cannot grasp.

Take the following statement:

EVERYONE can have +12 with enough hard work.

Read the caps again, ok?
You know what that means right?

Everyone right?

Ok, the average a player has to spend is like $2000 in that example.
Now, since everyone can have +12 with enough hard work, then how does that work out?

There will be some free-loaders who pay $0... so they will buy it from someone else who put gold in AH right?

On the equilibrum average equation looks like this:

$2000 + $2000 + $2000 + $2000 + .... = total revenue in game

Unless you got completely confused right now, let's go further. What happens when we remove 1 of them, but still want to keep the same result?

Oh right, we have to increase some other factor. After all:

$0 + $2000

makes $2000, not $4000 as before. Let's assume it looks like this:

$0 + $2500 + $2500 + $2500 + $2500 + $2000 + ... = total revenue (same as before)



$2500 > $2000 ijs


Lesson? Someone has to pay an insane amount of money if you are not willing to pay $2000 but still want +12. The more you don't pay yourself, the more others have to.


I know what idiotic response you'll give. "Who said everyone should have +12?"

Well, that's what I've been actually arguing about. Improving the standard of living in this game, aka gear, for everyone. Oh I forgot, you want, no matter how hard the work, only few "hardest workers" or the most advantaged to have it.

After all, you don't actually measure by HARD WORK, you measure by HARDEST WORK. That is, a RANKING.

An example of hard work would be, for example, 5000 points of hard work gives you X, 6000 gives you more, etc... an example of HARDEST work would be, top 5 get X, 10-6 get Y, etc...

In effect you want to make a pyramid scheme of economics, of hierarchy. Kind of those in fail societies. Completely against the western concept, at least in Europe. you want some sort of Feudal system economy.


Your nonsensical statements are like saying "everyone can be 1st in the Nien event", which is completely stupid.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. There is a supply of gold, that is, people who charge zen.

There is a demand for gold, that is, people who don't charge zen but wish to purchase cash shop items.

These two market forces meet in equilibrium somewhere, and an equilibrium price and quantity is settled somewhere, and we exchange coins for gold.

As long as there is a supply of gold, people can obtain cash shop items with coins. Which implies, as long as PWI is running, then people can obtain cash shop items with coins.

Therefore, people, albeit along a harder path, can indeed reach the top echelons.

@Asperitas: That is true. But only a few can get top spots, unless everyone starts to charge zen. In fact, the higher the ratio between free players and zen chargers, the less people can be in "the top spots" and higher gap.

Not sure how to explain but here's probably what I meant. Anyone can get top spot, but not everyone. It's two different things. I want the latter, with enough hard work of course. That is, if someone worked X amount to get Y, someone else should be able to do the same.

Unfortunately this doesn't work out, because it's based on the amount of charging zen. And most boutique goods I'm talking about (specifically refining aids) are consumable. That is, only charging can bring them into circulation and they are gone once they are used.

The problem here is obvious: it's not the hard work itself that can give you refining aid, it's your ranking of hard working (versus other players who do some work) versus the people who sell gold.

Imagine it's like the Nien Event. Instead of the GM rewards from the event, you have cash shoppers reward (i.e the gold they sell). The problem is, the hardest working person gets top spot, 2nd hardest worker gets 2nd etc... but it is obvious it's not just about how MUCH contribution points (or hard work "points") you have, it's how you have relative to the OTHER hard workers.

1st spot is only available for 1 person only, for example.

I agree with you that there's an equillibrum, but also note that this game has the hierarchical system already.



Also Michael, I still don't understand why you are against this. After all, wasn't "hard work" an argument of yours? So why not make every boutique good available through hard work, independent of charging zen -- i.e make it hard but not impossible without buying gold (whether with real money or from AH).

It's not hard work I'm complaining about, it's the ranking of the top HARDEST workers.

You know I want a sensible argument not just insults, if you are capable of that.

we need more non-squishy classes.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Asperitas: That is true. But only a few can get top spots, unless everyone starts to charge zen. In fact, the higher the ratio between free players and zen chargers, the less people can be in "the top spots" and higher gap.

Not sure how to explain but here's probably what I meant. Anyone can get top spot, but not everyone. It's two different things. I want the latter, with enough hard work of course. That is, if someone worked X amount to get Y, someone else should be able to do the same.

Unfortunately this doesn't work out, because it's based on the amount of charging zen. And most boutique goods I'm talking about (specifically refining aids) are consumable. That is, only charging can bring them into circulation and they are gone once they are used.

The problem here is obvious: it's not the hard work itself that can give you refining aid, it's your ranking of hard working (versus other players who do some work) versus the people who sell gold.

Imagine it's like the Nien Event. Instead of the GM rewards from the event, you have cash shoppers reward (i.e the gold they sell). The problem is, the hardest working person gets top spot, 2nd hardest worker gets 2nd etc... but it is obvious it's not just about how MUCH contribution points (or hard work "points") you have, it's how you have relative to the OTHER hard workers.

1st spot is only available for 1 person only, for example.

I agree with you that there's an equillibrum, but also note that this game has the hierarchical system already.



Also Michael, I still don't understand why you are against this. After all, wasn't "hard work" an argument of yours? So why not make every boutique good available through hard work, independent of charging zen -- i.e make it hard but not impossible without buying gold (whether with real money or from AH).

It's not hard work I'm complaining about, it's the ranking of the top HARDEST workers.

You know I want a sensible argument not just insults, if you are capable of that.

On the Nein event, I suppose you're correct. This is a contest in nature, so naturally there will only be one top spot. However, for gears and refines, everyone can obtain them. Not just anyone, everyone (for a given amount of hard work of course).

Let us examine the market for refines.

The supply of refining aids can loosely be translated to the supply for gold, since we need gold to purchase refining aids.

And the demand will be us of course.

In the fundamental supply-demand graph, we can see that at equilibrium, the price is such that supply = demand. That means, the market is cleared, and there is no surplus or shortage. Meaning, at that particular price, the amount of refines that are supplied by zen chargers is the same as the amount of refines desired and able to be purchased by gold buyers.

This means, that everyone willing and able to spend X amount of money on refines will be able to do so. This means that everyone not willing to spend X amount of money on refines will not be able to do so.

Now this corresponds directly to your statement of "if one person spent X to obtain Y, then another person should also be able to do so".

At this market equilibrium of price P and quantity Q, everybody who wants to and can afford to spend P will be able to obtain Q. Everybody.

Needless to say, those who cannot obtain the refines, cannot afford it. That is because, they did not spend price P to obtain the refines, which translates to not putting as much work in (one way or another) as the people who did.

So to summarize, yes, everybody who works hard enough can obtain cash shop refines. The only catch here is that "hard enough" is not a constant number, but a figure that fluctuates with market conditions.

However, the point is still this.

At price P, everybody who worked hard enough to make enough money to purchase a +12 refine and desires to do so will be able to. Everyone who is willing and able to put in X will be able to obtain Y.

Everyone means every individual in a group

Anyone means any person in a group o.o see the difference lol?

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You admitted yourself that you rob from the less rich players and make things impossible to afford for them.

If new players cannot afford it, it costs too much.

So let me ask you this, are there enough Love Up & Down tomes so that every player including the newest ones can get one? No? Well how do you suppose we regulate which ones can get one & which ones cant?

---

On an seperate topic to the opposing view point (all the ones arguing about merchanting);
Every one of you tries to throw the old Supply & Demand curve argument down everyone's throat. You realize it sounds like you took 1 day of economics and failed out right after. Everyone quotes the day 1 lesson of micro-economics but it sounds like not a single person studied any macro-economics. Whats that you say? You mean there's other laws governing economics besides supply & demand? b:shocked Yes & they study the overall movement of money to determine the health of an economic system. And our NPCs which both add & remove money from the system can easily fit into the "Foreign" part of that equation.

Long story short, just because supply+demand=price, does not mean we have a healthy economy.

I suppose if someone feels like an ill-treated mexican in here, they can always choose to play in another mmo. so yea, agreed that this isnt real life.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So let me ask you this, are there enough Love Up & Down tomes so that every player including the newest ones can get one? No? Well how do you suppose we regulate which ones can get one & which ones cant?

Well that is certainly the exact thing that I meant. No matter how hard you work, the supply will always be limited, and only the TOP workers will get it. What's next? Having social classes, nobility and hierarchy?

Well one thing is sure. We all know which economy is more healthy, and which one is fail, or else you wouldn't be in a modern one in real life.

Same thing for other boutique-exclusive items (since tomes are after all... half-boutique items), or the refining aids that I mentioned.

So I summarize myself:

With enough hard work there must be a way for everyone (not anyone) to acquire anything that others have. Especially gear-wise (aero mounts or ground mounts or fashion or whatever, those may be exceptions).


I'd like to know why someone who values hard work, like Michael_Dark, disagrees with the above summary.

________________

@Asperitas: Think of it like this... the supply of refining aids is totally dependent on charging zen only... there may be a lot of demand for them (in the case of "everyone") but not enough supply. If there's only 1 person who charges zen, how do you think others will get +12 gear with refining aids?

That person has to charge a whole lot of zen. It doesn't matter how much he sells it for. It's a simple fact that someone has to introduce all those refining aids.

That "someone" can be split amongst people, like Michael_dark said, the burden doesn't fall on one person. But it's still $2000 minimum, because if someone else is a free-player, then someone else has to pay more than $2000 to offset that. At least, if we are going to assume everyone can get +12.

This is a problem because it requires a huge amount of money to supply people with refining aids. It doesn't matter where that money comes from.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh noes socialism! b:shocked

Only if everyone works the same :P

However, under capitalism, people working towards their goals can accomplish it. They make the supplies (or products). For example, if a person doesn't run TTs, then he doesn't "produce" TT mats. Socialism would imply he would get the mats regardless, which I am not saying. What I am saying though, is that should this person wish to get the mats, he can run TTs independently of the other people and how much they farmed (or how much they charged zen). By simply through his hard work, he accomplishes it.

Which is not the case with boutique-exclusive items -- like the refining aids I mentioned.

Not so with the hierarchy/feudal system.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well that is certainly the exact thing that I meant. No matter how hard you work, the supply will always be limited, and only the TOP workers will get it. What's next? Having social classes, nobility and hierarchy?

Well one thing is sure. We all know which economy is more healthy, and which one is fail, or else you wouldn't be in a modern one in real life.

Same thing for other boutique-exclusive items (since tomes are after all... half-boutique items), or the refining aids that I mentioned.

So I summarize myself:

With enough hard work there must be a way for everyone (not anyone) to acquire anything that others have. Especially gear-wise (aero mounts or ground mounts or fashion or whatever, those may be exceptions).


I'd like to know why someone who values hard work, like Michael_Dark, disagrees with the above summary.

________________

@Asperitas: Think of it like this... the supply of refining aids is totally dependent on charging zen only... there may be a lot of demand for them (in the case of "everyone") but not enough supply. If there's only 1 person who charges zen, how do you think others will get +12 gear with refining aids?

That person has to charge a whole lot of zen. It doesn't matter how much he sells it for. It's a simple fact that someone has to introduce all those refining aids.

That "someone" can be split amongst people, like Michael_dark said, the burden doesn't fall on one person. But it's still $2000 minimum, because if someone else is a free-player, then someone else has to pay more than $2000 to offset that. At least, if we are going to assume everyone can get +12.

This is a problem because it requires a huge amount of money to supply people with refining aids. It doesn't matter where that money comes from.

I think I understand what you're saying. However, the flaw I find with your argument is that it would require an infinite supply of resources. An infinite amount of cash shop mounts, an infinite amount of refining aids and an infinite amount of boutique items.

You would have to eliminate the cash shop all together. Because in a world of scarce resources and infinite wants and needs, there is no way to satisfy everybody. That's why your hard work is always relative to the next person's, because holding a scarce commodity, there is only so many that one can obtain.

And this reflects the real life economics. If everybody works enough to afford a lamborghini, can they get one? No, because when the demand for a scarce commodity goes up, the price has to go up. If I only have 100 Lamborghinis and 1000 people want it, naturally the price has to go up until only 100 people desire it.

This applies to the gold market as well. If we are to have a cash shop, this is how it has to be. If you want a straight "Input X output Y", you would have to eliminate the cash shop and make them NPC items.

So you're right in the sense that if you work X hours, you may not necessarily be able to obtain Y. If that person next to you worked X+1 hours, they would take it and you can't. But that's unavoidable in a world of scarcity. Reiterating what I said, what you're proposing, that is a straight input X and output Y, you would need to eliminate scarcity, meaning an infinite supply of items.