New TW pay system

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Comments

  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Deflation is bad because it means the economy isn't growing.

    Inflation is bad because it hurts the purchasing power. Look at Zimbabwe. Wow, everyone is a trillionaire there. Sounds awesome right? A loaf of bread costs many times that. Doesn't sound so good anymore eh?

    That's what I find funny about all these resellers. They drive up prices to get rich, but are too stupid to realize that by driving up prices they are only making EVERYTHING cost even more so in the end, they don't have any more coins than they started with.b:chuckle
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  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    That's what I find funny about all these resellers. They drive up prices to get rich, but are too stupid to realize that by driving up prices they are only making EVERYTHING cost even more so in the end, they don't have any more coins than they started with.b:chuckle

    Prices are determined by both supply and demand. Not just the supply. It doesn't work that way.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    That's what I find funny about all these resellers. They drive up prices to get rich, but are too stupid to realize that by driving up prices they are only making EVERYTHING cost even more so in the end, they don't have any more coins than they started with.b:chuckle
    Reselling doesn't drive up prices. In the end, every item has to be consumed to be taken off the market. A reseller doesn't do this so the basic supply/demand balance isn't changed by them, and thus the market price doesn't change. If an item is resold a dozen times by a dozen resellers but there's just one final buyer, the market price is still determined by what the final buyer is willing to pay.

    What resellers do do is reduce a single individual's chances of finding a "good deal" - instances where a final user manages to snag something that's underpriced. But that's an outlier (along with the one where someone unwittingly pays for something that's overpriced), and doesn't affect the long-term market price.

    Money supply drives up prices. If everyone has 1 mil, they may only be willing to spend half of that on refining. If everyone has 2 mil and they're still willing to spend half of that on refining, the market price of mirages and dragon orbs just doubled.

    Edit: You need to stop thinking of economics in terms of trying to villify merchants, and think of it in terms of how an action (any action) affects the overall system.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    No, to break up the attacks you just need to have more bids placed. Large land owning factions can stand to lose several fake bids a week. So if our enemy knows they're being double attacked, all they need to do is spam fake bids. Who cares if they get a refund. Losing 100k is kind of a joke. I waste nearly that teleporting WQ daily.
    Assuming the 3 attack per week limit is still in place, just make it so the 3 highest bids are the attacks which take place. Then to successfully place a fake bid, you have to be willing to outbid all but 2 of your potential attackers.

    This would have the effect of driving the market price for bidding on a territory to how much coin that territory will give you in return (assuming they'll still give coin). If you're willing to spend more on a fake bid than the territory will give you in coin, well then you're losing money. And thus fake bidding results in a worse outcome than not fake bidding, thus automatically discouraging it.

    Territories which give access to L6+ apo items will have a higher market bid price, but the same principle applies.

    Of course this totally destroys their current RL business model. People in territory-owning factions use the coin they get to buy gold from non-territory-owning people to finance their stuff. Thus the net coin inflation indirectly drives gold sales. By turning the system into coin deflation, they're turning off this engine for indirect gold sales.
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    No, to break up the attacks you just need to have more bids placed. Large land owning factions can stand to lose several fake bids a week. So if our enemy knows they're being double attacked, all they need to do is spam fake bids. Who cares if they get a refund. Losing 100k is kind of a joke. I waste nearly that teleporting WQ daily.

    No one is saying that it would prevent fake bids. But the cost of doing so is much higher then than now since you do not get your bids back, earning from territories are cut down and there is the hidden attack bids that would only be revealed after the bid is over. But I guess it is still doable.
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    No one is saying that it would prevent fake bids. But the cost of doing so is much higher then than now since you do not get your bids back, earning from territories are cut down and there is the hidden attack bids that would only be revealed after the bid is over. But I guess it is still doable.

    People who would fake bid most likely have many millions anyway... It is usually the largest factions placing alternate bids on their land so they can avoid having two wars concurrently... It's the small factions who might have trouble putting up bids only to be outbid without notice and not getting refunds that this would really hurt.
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  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Reselling doesn't drive up prices. In the end, every item has to be consumed to be taken off the market. A reseller doesn't do this so the basic supply/demand balance isn't changed by them, and thus the market price doesn't change. If an item is resold a dozen times by a dozen resellers but there's just one final buyer, the market price is still determined by what the final buyer is willing to pay.

    What resellers do do is reduce a single individual's chances of finding a "good deal" - instances where a final user manages to snag something that's underpriced. But that's an outlier (along with the one where someone unwittingly pays for something that's overpriced), and doesn't affect the long-term market price.

    Money supply drives up prices. If everyone has 1 mil, they may only be willing to spend half of that on refining. If everyone has 2 mil and they're still willing to spend half of that on refining, the market price of mirages and dragon orbs just doubled.

    Edit: You need to stop thinking of economics in terms of trying to villify merchants, and think of it in terms of how an action (any action) affects the overall system.

    You need to stop trying to justify your greed. You buy everything you can find of one item at a particular price, then sell it for 10x higher and no one but you has the item so they have no choice but to pay for it. Once people see it selling for that price, everyone else sells it for that price, then you repeat the cycle.

    You admitted yourself that you rob from the less rich players and make things impossible to afford for them.

    If new players cannot afford it, it costs too much.
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If new players cannot afford it, it costs too much.

    That makes no sense. New players can't afford much of the stuff in the game? Of course they can't. Many people who've played much longer can't afford a lot of stuff either.

    The value of an item is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
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  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    About the merchanting driving up prices thingy, you cannot monopolize anything in game except tw apothecaries and maybe some other exceptions.

    Take a look at the luck tokens market, if anything merchanting has made it cheaper and more accessible to everyone. A high price does not mean someone is merchanting it, it is more like the demand for that item is unable to be met by the supply for that item.

    Another item, look at the price of Love: Up and Down. Before the 5 aps craze, it used to be only like 100mil. Now? At least 200mil and even then you would need some time before finding a willing seller.
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  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    That makes no sense. New players can't afford much of the stuff in the game? Of course they can't. Many people who've played much longer can't afford a lot of stuff either.

    The value of an item is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

    Zoe's always been pathetic at that sort of thing and has never had good reasoning.

    You get used to it.
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    They're talking about merchanting and it's effect on the economy?


    inb4 borsuc.
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  • Cyrl - Raging Tide
    Cyrl - Raging Tide Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    They're talking about merchanting and it's effect on the economy?


    inb4 borsuc.

    lol

    Horrible, but true.
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  • NightRage - Raging Tide
    NightRage - Raging Tide Posts: 1,582 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    They're talking about merchanting and it's effect on the economy?


    inb4 borsuc.

    Far too late for that. He's been all over this thread for a while.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You need to stop trying to justify your greed. You buy everything you can find of one item at a particular price, then sell it for 10x higher and no one but you has the item so they have no choice but to pay for it. Once people see it selling for that price, everyone else sells it for that price, then you repeat the cycle.

    You admitted yourself that you rob from the less rich players and make things impossible to afford for them.

    If new players cannot afford it, it costs too much.

    You do realize the whole theory of economics is based on human greed. Sellers try to sell as much as they can, for as much as they can, making as much profit as they can. Buyers try to buy as much as they can, for as little as they can, generating as much utility as they can. There is no villany, there is no evil. These two fundamental forces meet somewhere to produce an equilibrium, where the amount and price willing to be supplied is equal to the amount and price willing to be consumed.

    Like you said, merchanters are greedy. That is, we want to maximize profit. If we were to raise our prices so much that nobody can afford it, then, what is our profit?

    0

    There is no profit if there is no revenue. Therefore, it makes most sense to find a median between an adequate profit margin and penetration into the market. As such, a successful merchanter will never price their products such that nobody can afford it, because its just not profitable.

    Perhaps you may argue that since lower level players cannot afford these items, it is unfair. However, that's just how things are. The more scarce an item is, the higher the value, and the more expensive. Not everybody can afford a luxury condo. Not everybody can afford a Ferrari. Does that make it unfair? No. People get what they work for. If I farmed for a year to make a helm of holy punishment, is it equitable for me to sell it to some noob for 100 coins? No, the outcomes doesn't justify the inputs.

    Please, there is greed everywhere. It's an inevitable part of humanity. You as a buyer, are guilty of this sin as well. It's about time to acknowledge it.
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If it weren't for catshops and merchanting, you wouldn't be able to find items as easily, in as much quantity or at a reasonable price.

    Competition and the ability to catshop/merchant has driven down the prices of many items... look at tokens for example. They would be farm more expensive if you couldn't easily find 10 people selling them all next to each other. You would have to find whomever you could that would be willing to sell items you wanted that were just sitting around waiting to sell stuff. Or you'd end up waiting hours for someone to finish their chain of BH or HH runs. Or you'd have to pay whatever price you could find of sources online, responding to your desire to purchase and were available to actually meet you to sell them. This applies with any item really, anything that you would offer to buy/sell.

    You could always use the AH, but wait, they charge a fee to list and a fee if the item sells. So you could actually make more money selling an item to someone else for less with a catshop. Yeah, that's bad.

    And, what's wrong with the word 'profit'? Do you work for free? Of course you don't. Merchanters provide a service of convenience and luxury. If it bothers you that someone is going to make 500 or 1000 coins from buying your rough fur, tokens or whatever, make your own price, stand there in West Arch and spam common chat with your offer to sell until someone buys, or wait till you see someone asking to buy that mat. Or did you actually want to avoid that so you can play the game?

    Have you ever bought anything from anyone? Ever find someone willing to sell you something for less than it was worth. Did you give them more than they asked? If you said no, you're greedy and inconsiderate, right?
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Still kinda puzzled how this new system will motivate anyone to participate in TW at all.

    During a 2-3 hour TW you normally use 3-5 mil in charms and other necessary supplies, even more for some high hp BMs and Barbs. I know Bms that burn x2 platinum charms during a TW easy.

    Than you get what with new system? Like 2 mirages in salary after wasting entire weeks of savings on charms b:shocked. The effort you but in to gain a land is no longer proportional to the reward.

    For sure you do TW for fun, but its not fun when the reward u get from winning a land aint worth ****. Just doesn't motivate people to participate. Will be hard for guilds getting a high attendance i think, since they cant financially help members, just give out a couple mirage lol
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    For sure you do TW for fun, but its not fun when the reward u get from winning a land aint worth ****. Just doesn't motivate people to participate. Will be hard for guilds getting a high attendance i think, since they cant financially help members, just give out a couple mirage lol

    Ehh, you only get help financially if you already own the land. Most guilds who TW don't get that help at all and lowering the coin from holding land should make a more level playing field.

    Does anyone know more about how allied guild can coordinate attacks in this system?

    It sounds like they can choose to bid for a particular time? Is that correct? Any word if it is still max of 3 TWs per timeslot?
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  • ACLucius - Archosaur
    ACLucius - Archosaur Posts: 610 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The more I think about it, the more that troll post I made a while back about alliance packs sounds like a good money maker, for PWI at least. b:laugh

    Maybe I should suggest it and request 100 Gold is they decide to use it.
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    Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.
  • Legend - Raging Tide
    Legend - Raging Tide Posts: 392 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This will ultimately make this game more fun, and bring back that sense of hard work paying off, which pwi lost so long ago.
    -quit-
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You need to stop trying to justify your greed. You buy everything you can find of one item at a particular price, then sell it for 10x higher and no one but you has the item so they have no choice but to pay for it. Once people see it selling for that price, everyone else sells it for that price, then you repeat the cycle.
    LOL. I wish. It's more like I think I find a good deal, buy up as many of the item as I feel safe buying, and place it for sale at a modest 5%-15% markup. Then a bunch of cat shops pop up next to me selling it for less than I paid for it. The last item I bought from a cat shop for resale was a lunar wing trophy. I was planning to sell it after tiger packs went away. They came right back after 2 weeks, then immediately came right back in the form of sunshine packs for what looks like the rest of the summer. If/when I sell it, I'm probably going to take a big loss on it.

    I don't have as much time to play anymore. Reselling stuff other people are selling just has too much risk and loss potential involved. Selling stuff from the cash shop is much more stable and profitable, and it's impossible to corner the market on them since anyone can buy more from the cash shop.
    You admitted yourself that you rob from the less rich players and make things impossible to afford for them.
    I rob from them? I do my utmost to educate them how to get the best prices they can. If anyone asks me for market prices, I try my best to tell them. If after all that they still pay more than fair market price, my conscience is clear. Don't try to pin the blame on me. Besides, my prices tend to be lower than anyone else's since I'm pretty cutthroat when it comes to competition.

    What have you done to help these people? Complain about and disparage the very shops whose competition lowers prices. You discourage people from running shops, thus lowering competition, causing higher prices for the "less rich players" you purport to protect. You propose "solutions" which would result in widespread shortages because your primary goal isn't to improve the economy, it's to eliminate profit, based on some misguided principles stemming from a poor education in economics.

    Why do I tell the people I'm trying to sell to what the best prices are? Because my prices are frequently the best, and I want my customers to know they're getting a good deal buying from me. It means they'll look for my shop again next time they want to buy more stuff. I believe in an efficient market. An efficient market has the best balance of good prices (for both the buyer and seller) with small variation in the range of prices (fewer people getting ripped off buying something they don't know is overpriced, or cluelessly selling something for much less than it's worth). And the keys to an efficient market are educated customers, and lots of competition from sellers.
  • ACLucius - Archosaur
    ACLucius - Archosaur Posts: 610 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You need to stop trying to justify your greed. You buy everything you can find of one item at a particular price, then sell it for 10x higher and no one but you has the item so they have no choice but to pay for it. Once people see it selling for that price, everyone else sells it for that price, then you repeat the cycle.

    You admitted yourself that you rob from the less rich players and make things impossible to afford for them.

    If new players cannot afford it, it costs too much.

    Oh, they can afford it, if they learn how to make money.

    However, I'm inclined to agree with them Zoe. This game has a free market economy, which means everyone gets to set their own price. Caveat emptor. Anyone who markets in this game is running a business, and business means making profits. What do you expect them to do, buy at a higher price than they sell? Or sell at much higher price and buy at market price just to make things fair? Either way, a person can't make money. Hell, even I merch. Albeit, I don't mark up the price by much, only 500 per unit, but I still do. Does that mean I should lose money? If someone doesn't want to buy my stock, they can go buy it somewhere else or work to get it. Either way, it is their choice.
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    Didn't get the rest of it, but apparently I am the "destroyer of sin haters" as well.
  • Egaenil - Heavens Tear
    Egaenil - Heavens Tear Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Still kinda puzzled how this new system will motivate anyone to participate in TW at all.

    During a 2-3 hour TW you normally use 3-5 mil in charms and other necessary supplies, even more for some high hp BMs and Barbs. I know Bms that burn x2 platinum charms during a TW easy.

    Than you get what with new system? Like 2 mirages in salary after wasting entire weeks of savings on charms b:shocked. The effort you but in to gain a land is no longer proportional to the reward.

    For sure you do TW for fun, but its not fun when the reward u get from winning a land aint worth ****. Just doesn't motivate people to participate. Will be hard for guilds getting a high attendance i think, since they cant financially help members, just give out a couple mirage lol



    Good point you got there!! Hence for any faction owning no land, god forbid them attack those land holding faction!! they wont get paid enough for charm cost!!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"wink wink"
  • ExELFine - Heavens Tear
    ExELFine - Heavens Tear Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Charms price will go down. Along with everything else.

    Let's hope it's back at 340K :)
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  • KageYingZi - Heavens Tear
    KageYingZi - Heavens Tear Posts: 823 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Let me just reiterate:
    THE NEW REWARD IS GEAR I.E. WEAPONS,ARMOURS,ORNAMENTS.
    The Mirages are given out like a raffle.A land is chosen and the faction owning that land will get mirages+GEAR
  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You need to stop trying to justify your greed. You buy everything you can find of one item at a particular price, then sell it for 10x higher and no one but you has the item so they have no choice but to pay for it.

    You are not making any sense to me.

    If someone buys up all of one item and sells it for 10x higher that puts it out of my reach and I get by without buying any whatsoever. Also, I typically buy things after I am reasonably certain of its value to me, and its cost. (I sometimes buy things out of curiosity, but those will be relatively cheap things.)

    And we do not have any limited items in this game, we have rare items but even rare items get generated over time...
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Still kinda puzzled how this new system will motivate anyone to participate in TW at all.

    During a 2-3 hour TW you normally use 3-5 mil in charms and other necessary supplies, even more for some high hp BMs and Barbs. I know Bms that burn x2 platinum charms during a TW easy.

    Than you get what with new system? Like 2 mirages in salary after wasting entire weeks of savings on charms b:shocked. The effort you but in to gain a land is no longer proportional to the reward.

    For sure you do TW for fun, but its not fun when the reward u get from winning a land aint worth ****. Just doesn't motivate people to participate. Will be hard for guilds getting a high attendance i think, since they cant financially help members, just give out a couple mirage lol

    For a lot of factions, TW pay doesn't began to pay for their expenses as it is. I'd rather think the faction does other things to help (like hunting WBs, mini-WBs, selling apocs, etc)
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  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ehh, you only get help financially if you already own the land. Most guilds who TW don't get that help at all and lowering the coin from holding land should make a more level playing field.

    Does anyone know more about how allied guild can coordinate attacks in this system?

    It sounds like they can choose to bid for a particular time? Is that correct? Any word if it is still max of 3 TWs per timeslot?

    From what that has been translated, it would seem to be bidding for the same timeslot on different lands on a same faction and 3 is given as an example, and the maximum number of attacks is not mentioned.

    Does anyone know if this is already implemented in the pw cn version?
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Hell, even I merch. Albeit, I don't mark up the price by much, only 500 per unit, but I still do. Does that mean I should lose money? If someone doesn't want to buy my stock, they can go buy it somewhere else or work to get it. Either way, it is their choice.
    He doesn't understand/accept that trading/selling is not a zero-sum game. I've tried to explain it to him numerous times. Because he thinks it's zero-sum, he thinks if someone is making a profit, someone else must be losing money. So he concludes any mark-up is bad.

    But it's not zero-sum. If you sell a TT90 weapon, and someone buys it to upgrade from their TT80 weapon, it enables him to kill faster during grinds and thus make more money. You make money by selling the weapon, he makes money by buying the weapon. That's the crucial point he seems to miss/overlook. People only buy stuff if they think it'll give them some advantage over their current situation. So someone who buys an item is by definition never losing. They've made a conscious decision that the item they're buying is probably worth more than the coin they're paying, so they've decided buying that item at the offered price is a net benefit to them. Both the seller and buyer profit from the transaction.
  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    So someone who buys an item is by definition never losing.

    Unless, of course, they were mistaken, then they can lose.

    But usually people are careful with their money.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Let me explain my view on the "economy" as whole (dedicated to Rawrgh :P).

    To avoid confusion I'll start with a few concepts and examples. Let's use examples from real world to make things easier to grasp.

    What defines a good economy? Let's look at 2 examples. Does Mexico have a good economy? It has/had the richest person on earth. In PWI terms we can say, it has a person with warsoul! Is its economy good? You'd be crazy to say so.

    Now, let's look at total amount in an economy. Does China have a good economy? It sure ranks high for the total, but how many chinese say their standard of living is good? Its standard of living is far below western countries.

    So definitely, select few rich people or total economy amount (i.e GDP) does not make a good standard of living or "good economy" in MMORPG terms.

    No, you see, what we need to look for is GDP per capita.


    Now comes the important part. Suppose "standard of living" is +12 refines, and let's assume that costs $2000 (just example btw).

    There will be lazy people, of course, who will charge zen, but it doesn't change the fact that as a "hard worker" in game you need to get it from someone who charged. The obvious issue here is that, if you want the GDP per capita (of end-game people) to be +12, then there must be at least $2000 charged per person.

    The costs don't have to be equally split among each person, of course, but if a person pays $100 only and gets +12, and all others pay $2000 except 1, then the last one must pay at least $3900...

    as you can see, it is an insane amount of money. If you say that everyone can work hard towards +12... you must understand that a lot of money has to be charged for this freaking game.

    I mean, I can understand development costs and all... but $2000 per person on average is absurd in this case. That would cover 11 freaking years for a $15/month subscription game.

    Subscriptions games show this easier because everyone pays the same amount, so it is much easier to calculate the "GDP per capita" as far as "charging" or "paying" RL money goes.


    What is needed here, for the hard working players, is the chance to get certain boutique items without buying it off from someone else. Celestial Tiger event might be on this path (although the Public-Quest system makes it kinda unaffordable for everyone but the top participants), but we also need refining aid drops or something.

    Not saying that these have to be easy to acquire... but a different method of acquiring them than just charging zen. Hell, they could be on-par to "farm" as buying gold... but at least it ensures that we don't have to charge such insane amounts of money, whether it's me or my rich neighbour, just to make sure someone can get +12. Yes, buying it off other players is charging zen since they come from there in the first place!



    Now onto merchanting. The problem with merchanting, by itself, is that it's not productive. It doesn't increase the GDP or the GDP per capita. It's like in thermodynamics. You can make your house cooler with an air conditioner, but in reality, you're just moving the heat from your home to outside!

    Merchanting does nothing but move the money from someone to someone else... Sounds sweet when you are a few exclusive people, but it cannot, by definition, work for everybody. Because if everybody merchants, then it becomes normal trade...

    Merchanting is what I'd call "Mexico's situation" with richest person but poor standard of living overall.
    But it's not zero-sum. If you sell a TT90 weapon, and someone buys it to upgrade from their TT80 weapon, it enables him to kill faster during grinds and thus make more money. You make money by selling the weapon, he makes money by buying the weapon. That's the crucial point he seems to miss/overlook. People only buy stuff if they think it'll give them some advantage over their current situation. So someone who buys an item is by definition never losing. They've made a conscious decision that the item they're buying is probably worth more than the coin they're paying, so they've decided buying that item at the offered price is a net benefit to them. Both the seller and buyer profit from the transaction.
    This doesn't work out as you say. I mean seriously, no one +12 their weapon to grind faster... it's mostly used for PvP purposes. Which just has fun aspect... no real production or anything.