Stop telling others how to play

La_Zorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really? You think the "Veno pull" is a GLITCH! Are you drunk or just ignorant? The Veno pull, using our pets to separate out one mob from the rest of the crowd of mobs, so we all don't pull a mass of aggro on top of us all at once, is just another talent that Veno's can choose to learn, like Archers and Clerics, and Wizards learning how to "kite" mobs. Get a grip, and stop badmouthing Venos, as you obviously haven't a clue as to how to really play one! Apparently you're unable to tell the difference between a real PWI game glitch, and a playing method normally used by this type of character. If the ability to summon and unsummon their pets were taken away, the Veno would die; the ability to use their pets is part & parcel of what playing a Veno is all about. Sounds to me like you are just jealous that your character does not have this ability. Go read something intelligent, maybe it will expand your thinking processes. And quit QQing about Venos; it's lame ~

Ehh it really does seem like a glitch / exploit.

Venos have no skill called "pull mob". If you read the class description for "Venomancer" and the skill description for "summon pet" there is no mention of the ability to pull a single mob from a group.

When you send in the pet it actually aggros the whole group but if you don't heal it and only hit a single mob and unsummon your pet that single mob will have aggro on the veno.

That sounds like a flaw in the mob AI really as the pet definitely aggros more than one mob before it is desummoned. Veno pets can also walk through doors to pull bosses, glitch outdoor bosses and in general have sloppy coding.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not sure how 'much' was that intended by devs at beginning

but later they added real 'pull skill' to genies after all :P

Do genie skills have pulling in their skill descriptions now? There were quite a few genie skill that used to be able to pull but that broke in an update.

Really there isn't much point in pulling mobs one at a time.. using barrage is much faster.

I tank Polearm for my faction's fb69s, does that make me cool? (No, not with herc)

b:shockedb:begb:surrender

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you insult and rant so much that you dont even remember what you wrote few post before.
that last sentence in bracket shows that you are just common troll, and any arguing with you have to be pointless.
i seriouslly regret that i started this

Uh what, that's an insult to you and your nonsense about being a pve server, and comments directed at you, not everybody on the server. Wow, on top of counting, you need English comprehension.

and you will start to count mobs to make numbers bigger?
who ever bother feng in 2-3?
and astral, i can agree here but a bit. since astral bearly poke with his scythe, it seems better if barb tank boss, herc kill 2 mag adds so cler debuff/dd or just rb whole fight
but oke, my bad - 3 bosses instead of 2

Herc would do fine on boss while everyone else does mag adds, veno can amp and attack (esp with ironwood) boss to help things go faster -- herc with veno will be doing more damage than barb with cleric healing or in BB. For all those skills you claim to possess, tactics sure aren't in the equation are they?

similar situation is with other TTs. just on few bosses squad gain some of DD power thx to herc reflect mainly, just a bit more power from cler since he would have to IH tank once for 2-5 attacks skills (those bosses are usually easy like that) , some power from human barb, minus some of veno DD power.

Notice how you brought up 2-3, then wanna bring up other instances. We can talk about those when we do, however, you can't even stay on your own topic, whatever that is. Who knows what your aim is, but it sure is fun helping you make yourself look dumb.

my opinion about hercs is not biased, i just see how things look like.
if i can have herc in FC, i ll tend to replace barb with some DD, because fc dont need two tanks imo

Besides some heavily refined archers or psy's, endgame, a bm will get aggro stolen, and the only other option is for an archer to tank. Beyond that, aside of fragrance, a herc does fine in FF. Since a bm can tank bosses there too, I suppose you'd rather have a squad, then, full of non herc venos, a barb, no bm's, no archers, and just wizards and clerics? Your opinion is slighted by sheer stupidity.

but in tt?.. where veno will be able to tank just few easy bosses (we are talking 'bout >75 venos for 1-3; 2-2 or >85 for 2-3, 3-1 ofc)

Know how I made coin in my 70 and early 80s with both my cleric and veno? Three venos, 1 cleric. Cleric being mine, 1 veno being mine. Bye bye drum, bye bye soulbanisher. Hello coins and mats. I don't see a barb in the equation, nor the cleric you mention, because on a reduced damage "?" level boss, that 100 magic isn't going to make **** of a difference. If it really did, people would be bringing clerics instead of, oh, I don't know, actual DD classes?

i dont care about it too much because overall squad DD power is often nerfed by many factors you arent aware of like DDs with cheaper weapons, worse DD builds, high vit clerics, barbs with low devour or crappy gear, archers using cheaper arrows or without maxed debuff, or even venos without maxed amp (i remeber that on 80s it was rare to meet DD or barb with maxed debuffs).
but more often overall dmg is nerfed by pure laziness of DDs

Or the fact that they might actually wanna save pots. You seem quite unprepared for the case that people don't give as much a **** as you about these specifics, which is why a cleric needs to be built to survive what you call crappiness and laziness.

and problem with non-herc venos is that it s kinda easy to notice then dont have herc b:quiet
so they get all hate for nerfing DD power of squad.

Wait so I want you to say outright that herc venos nerf damage in a squad. I wanna laugh. b:chuckle

usually, people who kick non-herc to inv veno with fatty, wont even ask them to tank.

General statement, highly unreliable.

wow so hard just to not argue with you. tho not much fun. not real sport since there is lack of logic in what u write sometimes.

Same can easily be said of your posts. Very easily in fact.

everytime you f.e. put 100vit into build ur nerfing ur heals. u can have 'double sage ih' and use it combined with 5rd spark but still ur nerfing ur heals anyway.
thats how math works. 1,2,3,4,5.

Any time you don't empty out very point into your magic you're nerfing heals. Guess what? When you have that 50+ str into level 99+ gear, that's nerfing heals. Wow, novel concept. That's not really the issue here, so try to think outside the simplicity of what you're trying to assert.

-100mag at ur lvl nerf ur Base Mag Attack already by 20% and with +10% bonus in sage IH our both IHs heal pretty same amount of HP

Which, if this "nerfing", much like the nerfing of not going 100% pure magic, did much and prevented more than adequate healing from being done, then people would not be using vit AA builds for a cleric would they? Fail again.

and there is trick called demon spirt gift which makes my heals far stronger than yours..
so yep ur wrong again, but at least u actually tried to write something more than just some gasping, that u prolly consider as sarcasm

No, I consider that stupidity, much like you consider losing some arbitrary number of mag to be nerfing without any substance do it.

yep, pimping out build/gear to be able to play effectively pve which is designed for 10 yr olds vel covering lack of skill by vit/gear is trait of good player i guess
(btw we are talking about kinda low pve - mind that 2-3 isnt too high instance for >90 lvl cleric)

what does it have common with case we talk 'bout? are we writing here ultimade nub guide how to grind mats for money in 2-3 with high lvl squad?

2-3 was just example to show how stereotypical are you in ur thinking. High HP cler just for belial? give me a break.. it was never necessary. clers had p-shell, 79 skills, 3rd spark, apo and lately they have genies with instant skills

Boy, from the negative connotations you talk about pve toward, that's strange that you're on a pve server and not on a pvp one. You must have somebody to impress. And let me get this straight, you bring up 2-3, then cite it as a fail example of nothing in particular, then wanna criticize for using 2-3 in a rebuttal when you brought it up? So we fail in counting and in using logic in a debate? Nice.

so,
you were doing belial and you died all the time.

And we can't read. I was doing Belial all the time and dying? Hah. I was already a vit build before I even did Belial. It was the other pure mag builds like you wanna babble about being so fantastic with magic attack and heals that kept dying, not me. I said this numerous times but evidently reading comprehension is a skill you need to learn too, because you still somehow pulled this rabbit out of your bum.

According to quite stereotypical principle 'that dead cleric cant heal - add vit' u pumped ur HP to the point u were able to survive AE hits instead to actually checking what u are doing wrong.

Doing wrong? What? b:chuckle

Last I checked I kept the barbs heals and puri'd just fine. Maybe you were in some different pixelicious virtual reality I was in, one where you make up **** and pretend it's true, since that's all you ever manage to do.

At some point u will have to do same things like every other low HP cleric did on belial.

Hmm, no, I don't. I survive just fine and I'm generally not the BB cleric, because other clerics tend to have weak heals (funny how you mentioned that) or not puri or heal fast enough. At some point you might actually want to know what you're talking about.

and you will have to learn it because any amount of HP wont be able to cover damage from other bosses. Simple like that - u will learn to survive or u will die all the time
And when u hopefully train it well, u will wonder why u ever wasted so much HP just for belial.
true story

True story, I got that HP just for Belial. I centered a build entirely around 1 mob. Yeah. True story. Probably would not be a retort from Paramedic if it weren't chalk full of stuff he just made up and followed around like a lost aspergers child, which adequately describes the theme behind your debate.

thx to that -in your opinion- fail tactics, we are able to finish 3-3 with squad of 9x where tank on all bosses is fist bm with 7~8k hp (no barb and no hp buff) .

3-3 isn't even a hard instance, I don't know why you are trying to impress people with a fist bm tanking. It's tedious and long if anything.

but that bring so lotta effort into game: bm need to be enough good DD to hold aggro from same lvl archers, clerics need to have strong heals and everybody in squad need to keep themsleves alive with all skills they know.

A bm won't hold aggro from endgame archers that are even semi-decently built, especially the ones with highly refined 99 and lunar weapons. Sorry. These archers take aggro from hercs, never mind barbs. A bm can hold it? Ha. It's risky in assuming each archer will hold back enough not to take aggro.

but sure, u can keep safe-farming 2-3 with ur bm-cler (vit + addiction to barb buff) but im afraid we are playing two different games

Yeah it's so safe, I bet you can solo it huh. Oh no wait, I bet a fist BM can tank Belial too and keep aggro from an archer with a +5 or higher refined heaven shatterer. b:chuckle

Next time try to spend a little less time exaggerating certain instances and downplaying others.

ech......
the moral of this story - ppl who like to think putside the box: you just cant win. regardless of how well you make your arguments there always will be someone who knows The Right And Proper Way (TM) b:surrender

I dont want another sparring with MANray. Not worth it. I play this game for fun. As I like to play in squad i try to squad ppl whose idea of 'fun' is similar to mine. I wont change dramatically my playstyle just because someone has other opinion on how i should do this and that. If (s)he wants to boss others around - good luck finding squad that will comply. Regardless of me playing on a differents server I have no intention of doing so. For really obnoxious ppl i reserve 'leave squad' and 'blacklist' buttons...

TY to all posters who told about not canonical squads they were in, or unusual roles they played and enjoyed - i love such stories I remember my own joy when I first was able to tank whole 39. When i realized i can tank my bh at 70-79 and no longer have to pester barbs and bms from my friends list... The first time i pulled soulripper...
Share your stories like Juggernaut's BH story of 4 barbs, BM and wiz for 79... Make other ppl laugh. Leave narrow-minded in their boxes b:chuckle

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edited for lenght.

I'll give you full credit for jumping on the thread having made an effort to read the entire convo and phrasing your posts in a sensible manner.

I mostly agree with you, like most aggressive discussions this one centered on minutiae and not on essential details. I will only say that i disliked the manner in which some claims/statements were made.

Yes, a shorter fight certainly benefits the whole squad but aggro management remains a consideration. Let's say you have a party that includes same level Sin, Archer and Wizzie. At least two of them will be required to exercise restraint, and probably more so than were a Barb tanking since a DD relies on damage alone to generate threat. Damage spikes and sequential critting are much more of a danger. A barb is not only handling aggro through the use of skills like Ream but has skills that allow him to regain it like Roar (the basic assumption being DDs know when to stop attacking).

It would be bothersome to calculate what the ideal tanker would be for any specific scenario, especially since threat as a mechanic is not entirely understood. This by itself very much limits the role of non traditional tankers to scenarios where they do posses an obvious advantage. If fighting a (?) boss does an archer tanking means a Veno can go all out using damage skills on a pet? What about a Wizzie using BIDS? Can a BM confidently interrupt skills? Aggro bouncing remains a real posibility with a DD tank relying only on Alpha Male to regain attention.

This is also a consideration with mag based bosses. Barbs can frequently manage such scenarios despite their usually dismal mag res because of their hp pool. Also they have skills like Beastial Rage and Alacrity. So as you can see the statement that "an Archer is as good a tank as a barb in the majority" of situations is highly unaccurate since it completely disregards squad composition. Now, i do realize many posters have had a hard time swallowing the idea that i may use "barbs are better tankers" as a general statement. Think it over, its not so outrageous. Hp and phys res are not the only reasons that make a barb a good tanker although i should add that unlike some other classes it does provide reasonable room for error. One of the persons defending the Archer argument proudly announced refines of +3 (which as cheap as they may be, do seem overboard for 6x regular armor) do you think that an LA has as much room to deal with unexpected situations (damage spikes coming from debuffs, cleric needed to focus elsewhere, plain mistakes) as a Barb? Two of the worse bosses at the 6x range are LoP and Soulbanisher. I've seen Archers die to their AoE alone many times, in Soul's case even through BB.

It is only under almost ideal conditions (level difference, uber gear, extreme builds, higher leveled or numerous clerics, etc.) that classes other than Barb and BM can proficiently be replaced in the role of tankers. Citing weak bosses like Pyro is hardly an argument, what about Pole?

This is my opinion. As i've said previously any class can almost take on any role under the right circumstances. This doesn't mean they are the best choice for said role. A high level barb can become very efficient dealing damage and retains all of it's tanking strenghts. Why not compare to that...

Finally, as an aside, VENO PULL IS NOT A GLITCH. To believe that developers would be so negligent as to overlook this very obvious design mechanic is ridiculous to the point of contempt.

Edit; @ Aya_ I suggest if you want to avoid further "sparring" to leave my name out of posts in which you refer to people who don't share your point of view in a patronizing and offensive fashion. Seriously, do think it over.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Pot, meet kettle. b:bye b:chuckle

Try harder.

I'm not here to argue some stupid point about how you're suppose to heal on a boss. I'm an archer, I don't give a damn how you heal provided you don't do a bad job of it.

However, when you call somebody out on their language like it is a legitimate insult, when English is in fact not their native language, you are being incredibly insulting. And not just to Paramedic either, but to any other non-English speaking person here who's English isn't quite up to par because it's not their mother language.

Could you be any more ignorant?

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only claim, which is valid because most of us know about aggro management, is that the archer is better at holding aggro only because of pure damage output and not because they have aggro skills better than a 'true barb' or some such. However I agree with their line of reasoning. If for example the barb is constantly dipping only 20% HP while the archer is dipping 40% HP, but the cleric can keep up with the heals, then I don't see why the DDs should gimp their damage to allow 'safer' tanking when it isn't anymore dangerous with an archer tanking. And often times, a faster fight always benefits everyone.

Correct me if my above understanding is wrong.

Agreed with the rest of your post. But the problem with the above is not when the barb is dipping 20% in hp while the archer is dipping 40%. It's when the barb is dipping 30% while the archer is dipping 60%. Or 40% and 80%. The boss is still do-able with the archer tanking, but you have less margin for error. If another party member dies from an AOE, the cleric doesn't have time to res him. If the boss gets two or three lucky high-damage hits in a row, the archer tank may die while the barb will barely notice it.

So a faster fight doesn't always benefit everyone; it comes at the cost of the occasional party wipe because your archer tank died in a situation where a barb would have survived. Whether that cost is worth the benefit of faster fights is for each group to decide.

**removed**

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

I honestly don't think this is a glitch though, I think it was coded in deliberately to act this way. Point in case. A barbarian is in a squad. He rushes in and attacks several mobs then primaries one mob. the other squad members attack that one mob ONLY. Barb dies (no cleric heals... ooops), guess what.. the other mobs go their own way, but the one mob that was Primary.. you guessed it.. it comes looking for the other attackers.

Same principle as the veno pull. Send in a lackey (sorry barbs but .... lol ) and if the lackey dies or despawns, the mob he was hitting comes for the controller or the person healing the lackey.

The AI is working as coded, even if it is coded screwy.

~S

I agree that the mobs behave as coded since everything does. When the code is logically faulty it is a glitch, such as outdoor mobs having a blind spot from which air pets can attack.


I doubt many venos discover pet pull on their own as its not intuitive because it doesn't make much logical sense. A desummoned veno pet behaves differently from a suicidal party member. It is not clear why damage dealing aggro should be shared with the veno while the automatic proximity aggro is not. That the automatic aggro is not shared is the potential glitch.


Even if all the parts that enable veno pull were intentional it could still be considered an exploit of game mechanics. Consider the 100 second rooms in the cube. When you teleport in you automatically get aggro from the middle mob and it starts its long range constant aoe which you are supposed to find some way to survive for 100 seconds. Now if you run into a corner and force log and log back in you have dropped the aggro and there is no more aoe. Everything about that was intentionally coded but that circumvention is an exploit.

@Asterelle

i believe that 'pulling' was glitch, but then it was accepted to be part of game

it happens sometimes that if devs find some glitch useful they leave it and even start to redesign game for it (after all glitch makes venos much more useful in parties)

then devs added zeals with thier pointless earthflame, which also use similar glitch (it s like 'wink' to players imo).


i might be wrong in this case, but making 'glitch' a valid part of game happens quite often

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the whole argue here is about guy that nerfed his heals greatly just to be able to survive nub instances (imagine taking off 100 dex from ur archer o0)

im saying that he actually dont need that- that his build is unecessay waste because game offers enough survival skills to prevent you from death.

he brag up sage ih to be his compensation for vit build. when i wrote that our IHs heal same, and my other heals are far stronger and with other demon mag boost, even my IH will be stronger for ~10-15% (other heals 30%) he reply that he must be right because he know other clerics choose vit AA build (that sposed to be valid argument)
tho i dunno who are those others - hard to find anyone who tell you that u need +100vit after 90lvl to win pve content.

Compensation? A vit cleric build heals just fine without it, you admitted it, I admitted it. So even then, you still try to suggest your heals are incorrectly stronger than a sage IH. The stupidity here is flattering, but at the same time can't help but make fun of it. I brag? Hah. You only speak for yourself here who calls 2-3 a nub instance when 3-2 and 3-3 isn't even difficult for a cleric -- just you exaggerating yourself again like those who try and say FF is a nub instance but RB is a pro one, especially clerics who sit in BB the entire time. You're much like them, and entertaining somewhat, in a I-like-to-point-and-laugh sort of way.b:chuckle

i see that he dont get what im saying (because his genius tactic still works in 2-3) so i tell him that in higher lvl instances even his pro-vit build wont save his **** from dying - he will get oneshot anyway if he wont start to play game properly

I also said that my pro vit build would save me on those exploding hands. A cleric needs only 200k+ HP. You can't be taken seriously because you don't take for face value what you're arguing against. Instead you go off and talk about **** nobody even insinuated, like I don't need tactics to prevent myself from dying just because I'm a vit AA build? You made this up, which is a consistent tactic of yours to try and belittle people by exaggerating ****. If anything..

This..

if writing that someone is wrong bacause it 'might have to do with being on Dreamweaver and pretending you know something' isnt insulting whole server

Is yet another proof you just re-hash your own posts and don't add any value at all. Next time just copy/paste.

them if I write to person that 'cleary traits of incest idiocy might have to do something with his parents' wont be ofending to his folks?

well, i hope so. i dont know his olds. might be nice people


and his whole insulting is so pathetic (and then he wont even admint he did it rofl)

typical for person with some sociophobic problems, often mentaly unsteable who find internet as his safe spot where he can rant over ppl.

Whoa, a superman cleric and a psychologist. Didn't they make a movie about you? They did. I think it was called Identity -- the horrendous English version.

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2) Herc venos are more useful in squads than non-herc venos. That being said, I recommend playing without a herc until atleast 80-ish so you know how to play your freaking class, because I'm tired of fail herc venos who don't know how to pull or amp. No, herc venos aren't needed, but they make any instance way easier (with the possible exception of like... fb29 with a 9x squad).

yes, it s true that herc venos are more useful
yes, it s recommend for them to get it at higher lvl
but they dont make instances for me way easier. just bit faster

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

4) There's no way in hell you can predict every single one of belial's random agros, drop BB to plume shell/pot/whatever, then put BB back up (the absence of BB probably killed half the squad while you were trying to save yourself), every time, on an entire belial run.

you dont predict it- u just look what he is doing
btw BB on belial?.. isnt his aoe one of those interrupting ones?..
if it isnt - that could save me lotta effort on him b:embarrass

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

7) Yes, not being full mag makes you heal for less. However, I know clerics who have over 100 vit that can heal ~10k hp with one heal. It depends more on your weapon than how much magic you have. As has been stated before, belial doesn't hit that hard. Pure magic build is best hands down if you gear is all +10... but otherwise surviveability is important too.

mag is quite strong multiplier
10k hp is not impressive

anyway, lets not exaggerrate plz

8) I can solo 3-2, and I can do 3-3 with 2 other venos. That's because of hercs. And to those who think it goes slowly... 3 hercs. All hitting a boss. It goes fast.

i dont think anybody is downgrading herc solo/tank abilites. at least not me


anywa eot, i agree with most what u write. toons -espacially at end game- can do lotta different stuff. there are some obvious limits in game but ppl can bend them quite much if they put some more effort.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

.

But you have completely dodged what i consider my most compelling evidence, the distribution of stats amongst the pet systems. Why would pets with pulling characteristics become easily available when they are most needed if not otherwise?

Easy-mode means to do an instance one mob at a time via pulling. When I was leveling I was in a few squads that insisted on pulling every mob in an instance simply because it was available and it gets slow and frustrating. Mostly fb39 back when that was the hardest instance lol.

I don't think you can say a fast pet is designed specifically for pulling. Fast pets with high accuracy were used frequently in PVP before nixes and hercs were introduced.

You should expects for a variety of pets to be available as you progress in the game but I wouldn't say those new pets are specifically designed for an instance. One of the strongest pets in the game is only available in lvl 19 or something despite it being the best tank for high level instances (before hercs).

If pets were designed around specific instances you would expect to have swap out a golem for a better tank appropriate to the level of the instance. To some degree this is done with water pets as most places you have water quests have tamable pets but I think there are some water quests in hell that don't have anything tamable in sight.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But the problem with the above is not when the barb is dipping 20% in hp while the archer is dipping 40%. It's when the barb is dipping 30% while the archer is dipping 60%. Or 40% and 80%. The boss is still do-able with the archer tanking, but you have less margin for error. If another party member dies from an AOE, the cleric doesn't have time to res him.

I think we are in agreement then. I specifically mentioned the % because it was still considered safe. Boss patterns would come into play; if there are no AOEs, there is no sudden increase in damage and it's a constant 40% dip, it's still safe. I'd of course not want an archer to tank if the margin for error risks a squad wipe.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So a faster fight doesn't always benefit everyone; it comes at the cost of the occasional party wipe because your archer tank died in a situation where a barb would have survived. Whether that cost is worth the benefit of faster fights is for each group to decide.

I was thinking about how my squad handled bosses like Wyvern and Jewelscalen, and hopping on to a TT1-1 party with a lvl 60+ lead--we needed the battles to end fast. Long battles sometimes ended up having strange things in the middle. I neglected to think about the rest. So yeah, it's not always better. I'd opt for a barb to tank Farren and take it steadily than to have a ranged class **** it up and let it go on an AOE frenzy.