Stop telling others how to play

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When did I bash a whole server? I haven't done so to this point. You simply enjoy making up **** to compensate for horrendous arguments. Along with taking a class on counting (starting with numbers 1 through 5) you should take a debate course next. The counting course is much more imperative.

you insult and rant so much that you dont even remember what you wrote few post before.
that last sentence in bracket shows that you are just common troll, and any arguing with you have to be pointless.
i seriouslly regret that i started this

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hmm, nope, you just assumed wrong. It's nice to have another herc in squads like FF, and I usually ask for those first, but it's not necessary especially when my veno has one. And when I do, say, a 3-1 and I happen to be on my cleric, I will usually ask for a herc veno before a barb, as a magmite or glacial walker veno just might have a bit more trouble tanking bosses there. Does this really need to be iterated or am I getting hit up by the PC police? Now regarding the **** part, given you were incorrect in your presumption (might have to do with being on Dreamweaver and pretending you know something) who's making the **** out of their self? That's right. You. b:chuckle

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Fatal, Feng, Dog, Astral. That's 4. You flunked counting class too it looks like.

and you will start to count mobs to make numbers bigger?
who ever bother feng in 2-3?
and astral, i can agree here but a bit. since astral bearly poke with his scythe, it seems better if barb tank boss, herc kill 2 mag adds so cler debuff/dd or just rb whole fight
but oke, my bad - 3 bosses instead of 2

similar situation is with other TTs. just on few bosses squad gain some of DD power thx to herc reflect mainly, just a bit more power from cler since he would have to IH tank once for 2-5 attacks skills (those bosses are usually easy like that) , some power from human barb, minus some of veno DD power.

my opinion about hercs is not biased, i just see how things look like.
if i can have herc in FC, i ll tend to replace barb with some DD, because fc dont need two tanks imo
but in tt?.. where veno will be able to tank just few easy bosses (we are talking 'bout >75 venos for 1-3; 2-2 or >85 for 2-3, 3-1 ofc)
i dont care about it too much because overall squad DD power is often nerfed by many factors like DDs with cheaper weapons, worse DD builds, high vit clerics, barbs with low devour or crappy gear, archers using cheaper arrows or without maxed debuff, or even venos without maxed amp (i remeber that on 80s it was kinda rare to meet DD or barb with maxed debuffs o0).
but more often overall dmg is nerfed by pure laziness of DDs

and problem with non-herc venos is that it s kinda easy to notice they dont have herc b:quiet
so they get all hate for nerfing DD power of squad.
usually, people who kick non-herc to inv veno with fatty, wont even ask them to tank.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Strange, I heal just fine. What nerfing are you talking about? Or just another pulling nonsense out of your **** again?

wow so hard just to not argue with you. tho not much fun. not real sport since there is lack of logic in what u write sometimes.
everytime you f.e. put 100vit into build ur nerfing ur heals. u can have 'double sage ih' and use it combined with 5rd spark but still ur nerfing ur heals anyway.
thats how math works. 1,2,3,4,5.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Keep in mind that, being a demon cleric, you also don't understand the healing bonus sage ironheart gives. Fail.

-100mag at ur lvl nerf ur Base Mag Attack already by 20% and with +10% bonus in sage IH our both IHs heal pretty same amount of HP (my other heals are stronger already)
and there is trick called demon spirt gift which makes even my demon IH far stronger than yours sage..
so yep ur wrong again, but at least u actually tried to write something more than just some gasping, that u prolly consider as sarcasm

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yep, so much fail in yours.

yep, pimping out build/gear to be able to play effectively pve which is designed for 10 yr olds vel covering lack of skill by vit/gear is trait of good player i guess
(btw we are talking about kinda low pve - mind that 2-3 isnt too high instance for >90 lvl cleric)

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Who was mentioning 3-3? You are the only one, and far fewer people are doing 3-3 than 2-3. At the moment 2-3 is a far more productive instance to run for money as a cleric since 2x is gone.

what does it have common with case we talk 'bout? are we writing here ultimade nub guide how to grind mats for money in 2-3 with high lvl squad?

2-3 was just example to show how stereotypical are you in ur thinking. High HP cler just for belial? give me a break.. it was never necessary. clers had p-shell, 79 skills, 3rd spark, apo and lately they have genies with instant skills

so,
you were doing belial and you died all the time. According to quite stereotypical principle 'that dead cleric cant heal - add vit' u pumped ur HP to the point u were able to survive AE hits instead to actually checking what u are doing wrong.
it wouldnt be maybe so bad idea if 2-3 was end game instance, but thx to devs it isnt and your thinking lead to dead end.
At some point u will have to do same things like every other low HP cleric did on belial.
and you will have to learn it because any amount of HP wont be able to cover damage from other bosses. Simple like that - u will learn to survive or u will die all the time
And when u hopefully train it well, u will wonder why u ever wasted so much HP just for belial.
true story

thx to that -in your opinion- fail tactics, we are able to finish 3-3 with squad of 9x where tank on all bosses is fist bm with 7~8k hp (no barb and no hp buff) .

but that bring so lotta effort into game: bm need to be enough good DD to hold aggro from same lvl archers, clerics need to have strong heals and everybody in squad need to keep themsleves alive with all skills they know.

but sure, u can keep safe-farming 2-3 with ur bm-cler (vit + addiction to barb buff) but im afraid we are playing two different games

so im asking you to stop telling others how to play plz b:thanks

inb4
(in next post plz dont say that that im against vit in cler build; i never sed that - just everything has its purpose)

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

La_Zorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really? You think the "Veno pull" is a GLITCH! Are you drunk or just ignorant? The Veno pull, using our pets to separate out one mob from the rest of the crowd of mobs, so we all don't pull a mass of aggro on top of us all at once, is just another talent that Veno's can choose to learn, like Archers and Clerics, and Wizards learning how to "kite" mobs. Get a grip, and stop badmouthing Venos, as you obviously haven't a clue as to how to really play one! Apparently you're unable to tell the difference between a real PWI game glitch, and a playing method normally used by this type of character. If the ability to summon and unsummon their pets were taken away, the Veno would die; the ability to use their pets is part & parcel of what playing a Veno is all about. Sounds to me like you are just jealous that your character does not have this ability. Go read something intelligent, maybe it will expand your thinking processes. And quit QQing about Venos; it's lame ~

Ehh it really does seem like a glitch / exploit.

Venos have no skill called "pull mob". If you read the class description for "Venomancer" and the skill description for "summon pet" there is no mention of the ability to pull a single mob from a group.

When you send in the pet it actually aggros the whole group but if you don't heal it and only hit a single mob and unsummon your pet that single mob will have aggro on the veno.

That sounds like a flaw in the mob AI really as the pet definitely aggros more than one mob before it is desummoned. Veno pets can also walk through doors to pull bosses, glitch outdoor bosses and in general have sloppy coding.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

not sure how 'much' was that intended by devs at beginning

but later they added real 'pull skill' to genies after all :P

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not sure how 'much' was that intended by devs at beginning

but later they added real 'pull skill' to genies after all :P

Do genie skills have pulling in their skill descriptions now? There were quite a few genie skill that used to be able to pull but that broke in an update.

Really there isn't much point in pulling mobs one at a time.. using barrage is much faster.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

nope. there is no such description in zeal's earthflame ofc

but this debuff is so useless (4% attack/def) that it s just hard to believe it wasnt intend to work as pulling skill ;D

besides you wont find in this game any descrption of skill or anything else that is related to any 'more technical' game mechanics

nothing bout pulling or aggro

heals aggro,; cleric rez dont aggro at all; and tame skill can be used to pull as well.
and even if seems like exploit i think they would fix that in any patch..

but you can expect too much from thern.. ;0

ExtraTwisted - Dreamweaver

I tank Polearm for my faction's fb69s, does that make me cool? (No, not with herc)

b:shockedb:begb:surrender

Saitada - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ehh it really does seem like a glitch / exploit.

Venos have no skill called "pull mob". If you read the class description for "Venomancer" and the skill description for "summon pet" there is no mention of the ability to pull a single mob from a group.

When you send in the pet it actually aggros the whole group but if you don't heal it and only hit a single mob and unsummon your pet that single mob will have aggro on the veno.

That sounds like a flaw in the mob AI really as the pet definitely aggros more than one mob before it is desummoned. Veno pets can also walk through doors to pull bosses, glitch outdoor bosses and in general have sloppy coding.

In some ways this is true but in others not so true, let me explain. On my psychic I can sidle up to a door in a Dungeon and if I turn my view correctly, I can see inside the room and manually target mobs inside the room, and cast on them. Of course this has the immediate effect of pissing off any other mob near it, and I have agro from same.. but if only one mob is close enough, I only agro the one mob. So the code glitch is not limited to what veno's can do with a pet, it is a universal glitch in the coding of the doors.

I can also TAB (now) and do the same thing on ANY class, including my archer, with the same results. I can pull a mob through a door that is still closed. As I said above, this is a glitch in the door/wall coding and not a glitch that is specific to Venomancers.

Now on to the specific coding of the mobs. If a mob is hit/damaged, it comes for you if you de-summon your pet. In the case of my Hercules, if he has bramble on, anything that hits HIM, comes for me, if I de-summon him or he dies. So while the AI on the mobs may be slightly faulty (and I agree that the AI is coded poorly), the damage index is what causes agro towards the venomancer. No damage (mob only hits pet, pet doesn't have reflect), then when pet dies or de-summons, then mobs ignore the veno.

I honestly don't think this is a glitch though, I think it was coded in deliberately to act this way. Point in case. A barbarian is in a squad. He rushes in and attacks several mobs then primaries one mob. the other squad members attack that one mob ONLY. Barb dies (no cleric heals... ooops), guess what.. the other mobs go their own way, but the one mob that was Primary.. you guessed it.. it comes looking for the other attackers.

Same principle as the veno pull. Send in a lackey (sorry barbs but .... lol ) and if the lackey dies or despawns, the mob he was hitting comes for the controller or the person healing the lackey.

The AI is working as coded, even if it is coded screwy.

~S

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you insult and rant so much that you dont even remember what you wrote few post before.
that last sentence in bracket shows that you are just common troll, and any arguing with you have to be pointless.
i seriouslly regret that i started this

Uh what, that's an insult to you and your nonsense about being a pve server, and comments directed at you, not everybody on the server. Wow, on top of counting, you need English comprehension.

and you will start to count mobs to make numbers bigger?
who ever bother feng in 2-3?
and astral, i can agree here but a bit. since astral bearly poke with his scythe, it seems better if barb tank boss, herc kill 2 mag adds so cler debuff/dd or just rb whole fight
but oke, my bad - 3 bosses instead of 2

Herc would do fine on boss while everyone else does mag adds, veno can amp and attack (esp with ironwood) boss to help things go faster -- herc with veno will be doing more damage than barb with cleric healing or in BB. For all those skills you claim to possess, tactics sure aren't in the equation are they?

similar situation is with other TTs. just on few bosses squad gain some of DD power thx to herc reflect mainly, just a bit more power from cler since he would have to IH tank once for 2-5 attacks skills (those bosses are usually easy like that) , some power from human barb, minus some of veno DD power.

Notice how you brought up 2-3, then wanna bring up other instances. We can talk about those when we do, however, you can't even stay on your own topic, whatever that is. Who knows what your aim is, but it sure is fun helping you make yourself look dumb.

my opinion about hercs is not biased, i just see how things look like.
if i can have herc in FC, i ll tend to replace barb with some DD, because fc dont need two tanks imo

Besides some heavily refined archers or psy's, endgame, a bm will get aggro stolen, and the only other option is for an archer to tank. Beyond that, aside of fragrance, a herc does fine in FF. Since a bm can tank bosses there too, I suppose you'd rather have a squad, then, full of non herc venos, a barb, no bm's, no archers, and just wizards and clerics? Your opinion is slighted by sheer stupidity.

but in tt?.. where veno will be able to tank just few easy bosses (we are talking 'bout >75 venos for 1-3; 2-2 or >85 for 2-3, 3-1 ofc)

Know how I made coin in my 70 and early 80s with both my cleric and veno? Three venos, 1 cleric. Cleric being mine, 1 veno being mine. Bye bye drum, bye bye soulbanisher. Hello coins and mats. I don't see a barb in the equation, nor the cleric you mention, because on a reduced damage "?" level boss, that 100 magic isn't going to make **** of a difference. If it really did, people would be bringing clerics instead of, oh, I don't know, actual DD classes?

i dont care about it too much because overall squad DD power is often nerfed by many factors you arent aware of like DDs with cheaper weapons, worse DD builds, high vit clerics, barbs with low devour or crappy gear, archers using cheaper arrows or without maxed debuff, or even venos without maxed amp (i remeber that on 80s it was rare to meet DD or barb with maxed debuffs).
but more often overall dmg is nerfed by pure laziness of DDs

Or the fact that they might actually wanna save pots. You seem quite unprepared for the case that people don't give as much a **** as you about these specifics, which is why a cleric needs to be built to survive what you call crappiness and laziness.

and problem with non-herc venos is that it s kinda easy to notice then dont have herc b:quiet
so they get all hate for nerfing DD power of squad.

Wait so I want you to say outright that herc venos nerf damage in a squad. I wanna laugh. b:chuckle

usually, people who kick non-herc to inv veno with fatty, wont even ask them to tank.

General statement, highly unreliable.

wow so hard just to not argue with you. tho not much fun. not real sport since there is lack of logic in what u write sometimes.

Same can easily be said of your posts. Very easily in fact.

everytime you f.e. put 100vit into build ur nerfing ur heals. u can have 'double sage ih' and use it combined with 5rd spark but still ur nerfing ur heals anyway.
thats how math works. 1,2,3,4,5.

Any time you don't empty out very point into your magic you're nerfing heals. Guess what? When you have that 50+ str into level 99+ gear, that's nerfing heals. Wow, novel concept. That's not really the issue here, so try to think outside the simplicity of what you're trying to assert.

-100mag at ur lvl nerf ur Base Mag Attack already by 20% and with +10% bonus in sage IH our both IHs heal pretty same amount of HP

Which, if this "nerfing", much like the nerfing of not going 100% pure magic, did much and prevented more than adequate healing from being done, then people would not be using vit AA builds for a cleric would they? Fail again.

and there is trick called demon spirt gift which makes my heals far stronger than yours..
so yep ur wrong again, but at least u actually tried to write something more than just some gasping, that u prolly consider as sarcasm

No, I consider that stupidity, much like you consider losing some arbitrary number of mag to be nerfing without any substance do it.

yep, pimping out build/gear to be able to play effectively pve which is designed for 10 yr olds vel covering lack of skill by vit/gear is trait of good player i guess
(btw we are talking about kinda low pve - mind that 2-3 isnt too high instance for >90 lvl cleric)

what does it have common with case we talk 'bout? are we writing here ultimade nub guide how to grind mats for money in 2-3 with high lvl squad?

2-3 was just example to show how stereotypical are you in ur thinking. High HP cler just for belial? give me a break.. it was never necessary. clers had p-shell, 79 skills, 3rd spark, apo and lately they have genies with instant skills

Boy, from the negative connotations you talk about pve toward, that's strange that you're on a pve server and not on a pvp one. You must have somebody to impress. And let me get this straight, you bring up 2-3, then cite it as a fail example of nothing in particular, then wanna criticize for using 2-3 in a rebuttal when you brought it up? So we fail in counting and in using logic in a debate? Nice.

so,
you were doing belial and you died all the time.

And we can't read. I was doing Belial all the time and dying? Hah. I was already a vit build before I even did Belial. It was the other pure mag builds like you wanna babble about being so fantastic with magic attack and heals that kept dying, not me. I said this numerous times but evidently reading comprehension is a skill you need to learn too, because you still somehow pulled this rabbit out of your bum.

According to quite stereotypical principle 'that dead cleric cant heal - add vit' u pumped ur HP to the point u were able to survive AE hits instead to actually checking what u are doing wrong.

Doing wrong? What? b:chuckle

Last I checked I kept the barbs heals and puri'd just fine. Maybe you were in some different pixelicious virtual reality I was in, one where you make up **** and pretend it's true, since that's all you ever manage to do.

At some point u will have to do same things like every other low HP cleric did on belial.

Hmm, no, I don't. I survive just fine and I'm generally not the BB cleric, because other clerics tend to have weak heals (funny how you mentioned that) or not puri or heal fast enough. At some point you might actually want to know what you're talking about.

and you will have to learn it because any amount of HP wont be able to cover damage from other bosses. Simple like that - u will learn to survive or u will die all the time
And when u hopefully train it well, u will wonder why u ever wasted so much HP just for belial.
true story

True story, I got that HP just for Belial. I centered a build entirely around 1 mob. Yeah. True story. Probably would not be a retort from Paramedic if it weren't chalk full of stuff he just made up and followed around like a lost aspergers child, which adequately describes the theme behind your debate.

thx to that -in your opinion- fail tactics, we are able to finish 3-3 with squad of 9x where tank on all bosses is fist bm with 7~8k hp (no barb and no hp buff) .

3-3 isn't even a hard instance, I don't know why you are trying to impress people with a fist bm tanking. It's tedious and long if anything.

but that bring so lotta effort into game: bm need to be enough good DD to hold aggro from same lvl archers, clerics need to have strong heals and everybody in squad need to keep themsleves alive with all skills they know.

A bm won't hold aggro from endgame archers that are even semi-decently built, especially the ones with highly refined 99 and lunar weapons. Sorry. These archers take aggro from hercs, never mind barbs. A bm can hold it? Ha. It's risky in assuming each archer will hold back enough not to take aggro.

but sure, u can keep safe-farming 2-3 with ur bm-cler (vit + addiction to barb buff) but im afraid we are playing two different games

Yeah it's so safe, I bet you can solo it huh. Oh no wait, I bet a fist BM can tank Belial too and keep aggro from an archer with a +5 or higher refined heaven shatterer. b:chuckle

Next time try to spend a little less time exaggerating certain instances and downplaying others.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wow, on top of counting, you need English comprehension..

Just to point out, you ****, that English isn't his native language.

Before you run around trying hard to insult people because they're attempting to argue a point, you can take debating lessons to learn how to properly debate without making such a low remark.

Go grow some manners, you ****.

Aya__ - Heavens Tear

ech......
the moral of this story - ppl who like to think putside the box: you just cant win. regardless of how well you make your arguments there always will be someone who knows The Right And Proper Way (TM) b:surrender

I dont want another sparring with MANray. Not worth it. I play this game for fun. As I like to play in squad i try to squad ppl whose idea of 'fun' is similar to mine. I wont change dramatically my playstyle just because someone has other opinion on how i should do this and that. If (s)he wants to boss others around - good luck finding squad that will comply. Regardless of me playing on a differents server I have no intention of doing so. For really obnoxious ppl i reserve 'leave squad' and 'blacklist' buttons...

TY to all posters who told about not canonical squads they were in, or unusual roles they played and enjoyed - i love such stories I remember my own joy when I first was able to tank whole 39. When i realized i can tank my bh at 70-79 and no longer have to pester barbs and bms from my friends list... The first time i pulled soulripper...
Share your stories like Juggernaut's BH story of 4 barbs, BM and wiz for 79... Make other ppl laugh. Leave narrow-minded in their boxes b:chuckle

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just to point out, you ****, that English isn't his native language.

Before you run around trying hard to insult people because they're attempting to argue a point, you can take debating lessons to learn how to properly debate without making such a low remark.

Go grow some manners, you ****.

Pot, meet kettle. b:bye b:chuckle

Try harder.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edited for lenght.

I'll give you full credit for jumping on the thread having made an effort to read the entire convo and phrasing your posts in a sensible manner.

I mostly agree with you, like most aggressive discussions this one centered on minutiae and not on essential details. I will only say that i disliked the manner in which some claims/statements were made.

Yes, a shorter fight certainly benefits the whole squad but aggro management remains a consideration. Let's say you have a party that includes same level Sin, Archer and Wizzie. At least two of them will be required to exercise restraint, and probably more so than were a Barb tanking since a DD relies on damage alone to generate threat. Damage spikes and sequential critting are much more of a danger. A barb is not only handling aggro through the use of skills like Ream but has skills that allow him to regain it like Roar (the basic assumption being DDs know when to stop attacking).

It would be bothersome to calculate what the ideal tanker would be for any specific scenario, especially since threat as a mechanic is not entirely understood. This by itself very much limits the role of non traditional tankers to scenarios where they do posses an obvious advantage. If fighting a (?) boss does an archer tanking means a Veno can go all out using damage skills on a pet? What about a Wizzie using BIDS? Can a BM confidently interrupt skills? Aggro bouncing remains a real posibility with a DD tank relying only on Alpha Male to regain attention.

This is also a consideration with mag based bosses. Barbs can frequently manage such scenarios despite their usually dismal mag res because of their hp pool. Also they have skills like Beastial Rage and Alacrity. So as you can see the statement that "an Archer is as good a tank as a barb in the majority" of situations is highly unaccurate since it completely disregards squad composition. Now, i do realize many posters have had a hard time swallowing the idea that i may use "barbs are better tankers" as a general statement. Think it over, its not so outrageous. Hp and phys res are not the only reasons that make a barb a good tanker although i should add that unlike some other classes it does provide reasonable room for error. One of the persons defending the Archer argument proudly announced refines of +3 (which as cheap as they may be, do seem overboard for 6x regular armor) do you think that an LA has as much room to deal with unexpected situations (damage spikes coming from debuffs, cleric needed to focus elsewhere, plain mistakes) as a Barb? Two of the worse bosses at the 6x range are LoP and Soulbanisher. I've seen Archers die to their AoE alone many times, in Soul's case even through BB.

It is only under almost ideal conditions (level difference, uber gear, extreme builds, higher leveled or numerous clerics, etc.) that classes other than Barb and BM can proficiently be replaced in the role of tankers. Citing weak bosses like Pyro is hardly an argument, what about Pole?

This is my opinion. As i've said previously any class can almost take on any role under the right circumstances. This doesn't mean they are the best choice for said role. A high level barb can become very efficient dealing damage and retains all of it's tanking strenghts. Why not compare to that...

Finally, as an aside, VENO PULL IS NOT A GLITCH. To believe that developers would be so negligent as to overlook this very obvious design mechanic is ridiculous to the point of contempt.

Edit; @ Aya_ I suggest if you want to avoid further "sparring" to leave my name out of posts in which you refer to people who don't share your point of view in a patronizing and offensive fashion. Seriously, do think it over.

Hari - Heavens Tear

Ugh, everyone stop arguing, seriously. You're both wrong. I'm not even gonna bother quoting people and just throw stuff out there.

1) Fist BM (actually r8 archer with great fists and -interval, but there aren't any of those on my server) is the best build in the game for holding agro. That 101 archer who said he did 20k dps on a [?] boss? He does it with fists. Fist BM out-DDs everyone with the right gear, period. Bows hit harder per hit... but they hit less than once a second, not 5 times per second and permanently demon sparked.

2) Herc venos are more useful in squads than non-herc venos. That being said, I recommend playing without a herc until atleast 80-ish so you know how to play your freaking class, because I'm tired of fail herc venos who don't know how to pull or amp. No, herc venos aren't needed, but they make any instance way easier (with the possible exception of like... fb29 with a 9x squad).

3) It's better to tank astralwalker with a barb, because herc bramble doesn't hit astralwalker (ranged damage) so any decent DD will be able to pull agro from a herc.

4) There's no way in hell you can predict every single one of belial's random agros, drop BB to plume shell/pot/whatever, then put BB back up (the absence of BB probably killed half the squad while you were trying to save yourself), every time, on an entire belial run.

5) I know fist barbs that can kill belial before the rest of the squad kills the adds. I know fist BMs who can solo belial with about 50k in charm cost because they get so much chi they spark every 16 seconds and use their heal skill every 30. There's no way an archer can out-DD a good fist BM, unless they also are using fists and have better gear.

6) I know fist BMs who could solo harpy if they had a cleric that survived the AoEs.

7) Yes, not being full mag makes you heal for less. However, I know clerics who have over 100 vit that can heal ~10k hp with one heal. It depends more on your weapon than how much magic you have. As has been stated before, belial doesn't hit that hard. Pure magic build is best hands down if you gear is all +10... but otherwise surviveability is important too.

8) I can solo 3-2, and I can do 3-3 with 2 other venos. That's because of hercs. And to those who think it goes slowly... 3 hercs. All hitting a boss. It goes fast.


Finally, to actually address the OP... yes, any class can do several different things. However, that's not what they were designed to do, so they will never be as good as the "correct" class for that job. Yes, fist BMs can generate more agro than a barb. However, they can't instantly take agro from someone, or hold agro on a giant group of mobs the same way barbs can.

Lots of classes are useful in different situations. But that doesn't mean they're better than another class would be in that situation, it just means they can do it. If you're a cleric who's DDing and healing, that's totally fine... as long as charms aren't ticking.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Pot, meet kettle. b:bye b:chuckle

Try harder.

I'm not here to argue some stupid point about how you're suppose to heal on a boss. I'm an archer, I don't give a damn how you heal provided you don't do a bad job of it.

However, when you call somebody out on their language like it is a legitimate insult, when English is in fact not their native language, you are being incredibly insulting. And not just to Paramedic either, but to any other non-English speaking person here who's English isn't quite up to par because it's not their mother language.

Could you be any more ignorant?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not here to argue some stupid point about how you're suppose to heal on a boss. I'm an archer, I don't give a damn how you heal provided you don't do a bad job of it.

However, when you call somebody out on their language like it is a legitimate insult, when English is in fact not their native language, you are being incredibly insulting. And not just to Paramedic either, but to any other non-English speaking person here who's English isn't quite up to par because it's not their mother language.

Could you be any more ignorant?

Uh huh, and I bet when I mention a cleric is fail I'm insulting every other cleric too. b:chuckle

Maybe you should find something worthy of being anal and pedantic about.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only claim, which is valid because most of us know about aggro management, is that the archer is better at holding aggro only because of pure damage output and not because they have aggro skills better than a 'true barb' or some such. However I agree with their line of reasoning. If for example the barb is constantly dipping only 20% HP while the archer is dipping 40% HP, but the cleric can keep up with the heals, then I don't see why the DDs should gimp their damage to allow 'safer' tanking when it isn't anymore dangerous with an archer tanking. And often times, a faster fight always benefits everyone.

Correct me if my above understanding is wrong.

Agreed with the rest of your post. But the problem with the above is not when the barb is dipping 20% in hp while the archer is dipping 40%. It's when the barb is dipping 30% while the archer is dipping 60%. Or 40% and 80%. The boss is still do-able with the archer tanking, but you have less margin for error. If another party member dies from an AOE, the cleric doesn't have time to res him. If the boss gets two or three lucky high-damage hits in a row, the archer tank may die while the barb will barely notice it.

So a faster fight doesn't always benefit everyone; it comes at the cost of the occasional party wipe because your archer tank died in a situation where a barb would have survived. Whether that cost is worth the benefit of faster fights is for each group to decide.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Uh huh, and I bet when I mention a cleric is fail I'm insulting every other cleric too. b:chuckle

Maybe you should find something worthy of being anal and pedantic about.

**removed**

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

**removed**

frankieraye

Hey guys, keep it civil please.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

I honestly don't think this is a glitch though, I think it was coded in deliberately to act this way. Point in case. A barbarian is in a squad. He rushes in and attacks several mobs then primaries one mob. the other squad members attack that one mob ONLY. Barb dies (no cleric heals... ooops), guess what.. the other mobs go their own way, but the one mob that was Primary.. you guessed it.. it comes looking for the other attackers.

Same principle as the veno pull. Send in a lackey (sorry barbs but .... lol ) and if the lackey dies or despawns, the mob he was hitting comes for the controller or the person healing the lackey.

The AI is working as coded, even if it is coded screwy.

~S

I agree that the mobs behave as coded since everything does. When the code is logically faulty it is a glitch, such as outdoor mobs having a blind spot from which air pets can attack.


I doubt many venos discover pet pull on their own as its not intuitive because it doesn't make much logical sense. A desummoned veno pet behaves differently from a suicidal party member. It is not clear why damage dealing aggro should be shared with the veno while the automatic proximity aggro is not. That the automatic aggro is not shared is the potential glitch.


Even if all the parts that enable veno pull were intentional it could still be considered an exploit of game mechanics. Consider the 100 second rooms in the cube. When you teleport in you automatically get aggro from the middle mob and it starts its long range constant aoe which you are supposed to find some way to survive for 100 seconds. Now if you run into a corner and force log and log back in you have dropped the aggro and there is no more aoe. Everything about that was intentionally coded but that circumvention is an exploit.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just to point out, you ****, that English isn't his native language.

Before you run around trying hard to insult people because they're attempting to argue a point, you can take debating lessons to learn how to properly debate without making such a low remark.

Go grow some manners, you ****.

i dunno, guy is so hard- everytime i write valid arugment he just close eyes for them and rant tru.

the whole argue here is about guy that nerfed his heals greatly just to be able to survive nub instances (imagine taking off 100 dex from ur archer o0)

im saying that he actually dont need that- that his build is unecessay waste because game offers enough survival skills to prevent you from death.

he brag up sage ih to be his compensation for vit build. when i wrote that our IHs heal same, and my other heals are far stronger and with other demon mag boost, even my IH will be stronger for ~10-15% (other heals 30%) he reply that he must be right because he know other clerics choose vit AA build (that sposed to be valid argument)
tho i dunno who are those others - hard to find anyone who tell you that u need +100vit after 90lvl to win pve content.

i see that he dont get what im saying (because his genius tactic still works in 2-3) so i tell him that in higher lvl instances even his pro-vit build wont save his **** from dying - he will get oneshot anyway if he wont start to play game properly

simple conclusion from what i wrote above is: if 100vit and barb buff wont help u at all in other instances -then why bother both on lower ones?

imagine all classes nerfing their build to make from themsleves semi-tanks to do stuff rofl and refuse to use skills to survive
(i know cases of clers so scared of belial that turned thier toons into LA)


anyway, it s not even important -imo- he can have 300 vit in toon if he want and he feel he heal good enough
problem is that he is selling his wisdom to other ppl and will rant over anyone who point lack of logic or cohesion in his thinking about build.


but what mostly hurt me here (well, not rly) is that guy dont even understand what i wrote.
he totally misunderstood tt/fc veno part, didnt get part about tactic on astral either.

meh surrender - i dont wanna anymore b:surrender



and bout english part - i need more lessons here:

if writing that someone is wrong bacause it 'might have to do with being on Dreamweaver and pretending you know something' isnt insulting whole server

them if I write to person that 'cleary traits of incest idiocy might have to do something with his parents' wont be ofending to his folks?

well, i hope so. i dont know his olds. might be nice people


and his whole insulting is so pathetic (and then he wont even admint he did it rofl)

typical for person with some sociophobic problems, often mentaly unsteable who find internet as his safe spot where he can rant over ppl.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@Asterelle

i believe that 'pulling' was glitch, but then it was accepted to be part of game

it happens sometimes that if devs find some glitch useful they leave it and even start to redesign game for it (after all glitch makes venos much more useful in parties)

then devs added zeals with thier pointless earthflame, which also use similar glitch (it s like 'wink' to players imo).


i might be wrong in this case, but making 'glitch' a valid part of game happens quite often

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree that the mobs behave as coded since everything does. When the code is logically faulty it is a glitch, such as outdoor mobs having a blind spot from which air pets can attack.


I doubt many venos discover pet pull on their own as its not intuitive because it doesn't make much logical sense. A desummoned veno pet behaves differently from a suicidal party member. It is not clear why damage dealing aggro should be shared with the veno while the automatic proximity aggro is not. That the automatic aggro is not shared is the potential glitch.


Even if all the parts that enable veno pull were intentional it could still be considered an exploit of game mechanics. Consider the 100 second rooms in the cube. When you teleport in you automatically get aggro from the middle mob and it starts its long range constant aoe which you are supposed to find some way to survive for 100 seconds. Now if you run into a corner and force log and log back in you have dropped the aggro and there is no more aoe. Everything about that was intentionally coded but that circumvention is an exploit.

I disagree. Sharing proximity aggro would make it next to impossible to send a pet into a group of mobs because other than the one being attacked directly, all others would immediately turn against the caster. This would actually prove a handicap that no pet skill (including Reflect) addresses. To attack each mob and generate hate towards the pet as a way to avoid heal aggro does seem like an intuitive mechanic to me.

Yes, not many venos discover pulling on their own but it should be pointed out the leveling rate is not what it used to be. However pulling is implied in the design of most instances. It would be difficult for a same level party to handle even fb19 without it, and the bosses in fb39 are all surrounded by adds. The very reason pulling is made possible is the design of aggro mechanics avoid a veno being able to attack mobs with just their pet and disengaging if things don't work their way. That this problem was addressed without considering the consequences seems improbable at best. Also the summon's channeling too closely fits in the timeframe a pull provides for it to be accidental.

The best proof however lies in pet distribution. Most pets in the game can be tamed before reaching level 60. However only a few of those posses the characteristics that make for a good puller. It's only a couple of rares, type 4 wolves and perhaps a few others. After 60 however, this pets seem to become the norm. The kowlin, petalii, the Steel Grimalkin etc. Just in time for fb69 which is the first instance in which these traits will provide a noticeable advantage when pulling. These characteristics are; fast speed, high accuracy and the skill Slow.

Now, it already seems far fetched enough to me to supose that the pull mechanic would have slipped by designers. That instances were designed with the need for pulling with no obvious means to do so provided seems a farther stretch (yes, there's the Tame Pet skill, but given it's relatively long channeling it seems unlikely it was ever meant as anything but a situational back up). But that pet distribution conforms to the need for profficient pullers really seems pushing things beyond reason. Coincidence wouldn't have allowed for such distribution of stats across level ranges, especially when many pullers seem to serve little other purpose.

Now, there are many people which, for whatever reason, will jump into casting venos as a glitched OP class. The idea that pet pulling is abusing an exploit contributes to their views but does not conform with evidence that can be found in the game. Even the most elemental of Alpha testing would've brought this to the developers attention. If we were to ignore facts and suppose that there's any validity to this claim, it has long been accepted by developers as a functional mechanic.

To argue that pet pulling is a glitch is nothing but veno bashing.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the whole argue here is about guy that nerfed his heals greatly just to be able to survive nub instances (imagine taking off 100 dex from ur archer o0)

im saying that he actually dont need that- that his build is unecessay waste because game offers enough survival skills to prevent you from death.

he brag up sage ih to be his compensation for vit build. when i wrote that our IHs heal same, and my other heals are far stronger and with other demon mag boost, even my IH will be stronger for ~10-15% (other heals 30%) he reply that he must be right because he know other clerics choose vit AA build (that sposed to be valid argument)
tho i dunno who are those others - hard to find anyone who tell you that u need +100vit after 90lvl to win pve content.

Compensation? A vit cleric build heals just fine without it, you admitted it, I admitted it. So even then, you still try to suggest your heals are incorrectly stronger than a sage IH. The stupidity here is flattering, but at the same time can't help but make fun of it. I brag? Hah. You only speak for yourself here who calls 2-3 a nub instance when 3-2 and 3-3 isn't even difficult for a cleric -- just you exaggerating yourself again like those who try and say FF is a nub instance but RB is a pro one, especially clerics who sit in BB the entire time. You're much like them, and entertaining somewhat, in a I-like-to-point-and-laugh sort of way.b:chuckle

i see that he dont get what im saying (because his genius tactic still works in 2-3) so i tell him that in higher lvl instances even his pro-vit build wont save his **** from dying - he will get oneshot anyway if he wont start to play game properly

I also said that my pro vit build would save me on those exploding hands. A cleric needs only 200k+ HP. You can't be taken seriously because you don't take for face value what you're arguing against. Instead you go off and talk about **** nobody even insinuated, like I don't need tactics to prevent myself from dying just because I'm a vit AA build? You made this up, which is a consistent tactic of yours to try and belittle people by exaggerating ****. If anything..

This..

if writing that someone is wrong bacause it 'might have to do with being on Dreamweaver and pretending you know something' isnt insulting whole server

Is yet another proof you just re-hash your own posts and don't add any value at all. Next time just copy/paste.

them if I write to person that 'cleary traits of incest idiocy might have to do something with his parents' wont be ofending to his folks?

well, i hope so. i dont know his olds. might be nice people


and his whole insulting is so pathetic (and then he wont even admint he did it rofl)

typical for person with some sociophobic problems, often mentaly unsteable who find internet as his safe spot where he can rant over ppl.

Whoa, a superman cleric and a psychologist. Didn't they make a movie about you? They did. I think it was called Identity -- the horrendous English version.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree. Sharing proximity aggro would make it next to impossible to send a pet into a group of mobs because other than the one being attacked directly, all others would immediately turn against the caster. This would actually prove a handicap that no pet skill (including Reflect) addresses. To attack each mob and generate hate towards the pet as a way to avoid heal aggro does seem like an intuitive mechanic to me.

Yes, not many venos discover pulling on their own but it should be pointed out the leveling rate is not what it used to be. However pulling is implied in the design of most instances. It would be difficult for a same level party to handle even fb19 without it, and the bosses in fb39 are all surrounded by adds. The very reason pulling is made possible is the design of aggro mechanics avoid a veno being able to attack mobs with just their pet and disengaging if things don't work their way. That this problem was addressed without considering the consequences seems improbable at best. Also the summon's channeling too closely fits in the timeframe a pull provides for it to be accidental.

The best proof however lies in pet distribution. Most pets in the game can be tamed before reaching level 60. However only a few of those posses the characteristics that make for a good puller. It's only a couple of rares, type 4 wolves and perhaps a few others. After 60 however, this pets seem to become the norm. The kowlin, petalii, the Steel Grimalkin etc. Just in time for fb69 which is the first instance in which these traits will provide a noticeable advantage when pulling. These characteristics are; fast speed, high accuracy and the skill Slow.

Now, it already seems far fetched enough to me to supose that the pull mechanic would have slipped by designers. That instances were designed with the need for pulling with no obvious means to do so provided seems a farther stretch (yes, there's the Tame Pet skill, but given it's relatively long channeling it seems unlikely it was ever meant as anything but a situational back up). But that pet distribution conforms to the need for profficient pullers really seems pushing things beyond reason. Coincidence wouldn't have allowed for such distribution of stats across level ranges, especially when many pullers seem to serve little other purpose.

Now, there are many people which, for whatever reason, will jump into casting venos as a glitched OP class. The idea that pet pulling is abusing an exploit contributes to their views but does not conform with evidence that can be found in the game. Even the most elemental of Alpha testing would've brought this to the developers attention. If we were to ignore facts and suppose that there's any validity to this claim, it has long been accepted by developers as a functional mechanic.

To argue that pet pulling is a glitch is nothing but veno bashing.

Any pet can be used to pull.

Saying that if something isn't fixed it must be intentional does not apply to PWI. The designers have left known flaws in the game for many years without any indication that they intend to fix them.

The damage aggro is only transferred to the veno when the pet is unsummoned but for some unknown reason proximity aggro is not.

There is no fb where it is impossible to proceed without pulling mobs one at a time. If you think pulling mobs one by one is required you've been playing on easy mode too long.

There are many unambiguous mechanics in the game specifically designed for engaging multiple enemies. Barbs for example have an aoe aggro skill to hold a group of mobs... If you've ever completed a rebirth run you can see how a squad can engage multiple mobs without pulling one at a time. In addition to aoe.. most classes in the game have skills like stun immobilize and silence. These skills can be used in tandem to hold adds while the party focuses on a single mob. In other games this is called "crowd control" or CC. This term is unused in pwi because of reliance on pet pull.

Honestly though why should there be no consequence to sending a pet into the middle of a swarm of mobs with no plan to fight them?

The pve of the game would be much more fun without any form of single mob pull.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2) Herc venos are more useful in squads than non-herc venos. That being said, I recommend playing without a herc until atleast 80-ish so you know how to play your freaking class, because I'm tired of fail herc venos who don't know how to pull or amp. No, herc venos aren't needed, but they make any instance way easier (with the possible exception of like... fb29 with a 9x squad).

yes, it s true that herc venos are more useful
yes, it s recommend for them to get it at higher lvl
but they dont make instances for me way easier. just bit faster

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

4) There's no way in hell you can predict every single one of belial's random agros, drop BB to plume shell/pot/whatever, then put BB back up (the absence of BB probably killed half the squad while you were trying to save yourself), every time, on an entire belial run.

you dont predict it- u just look what he is doing
btw BB on belial?.. isnt his aoe one of those interrupting ones?..
if it isnt - that could save me lotta effort on him b:embarrass

Hari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

7) Yes, not being full mag makes you heal for less. However, I know clerics who have over 100 vit that can heal ~10k hp with one heal. It depends more on your weapon than how much magic you have. As has been stated before, belial doesn't hit that hard. Pure magic build is best hands down if you gear is all +10... but otherwise surviveability is important too.

mag is quite strong multiplier
10k hp is not impressive

anyway, lets not exaggerrate plz

8) I can solo 3-2, and I can do 3-3 with 2 other venos. That's because of hercs. And to those who think it goes slowly... 3 hercs. All hitting a boss. It goes fast.

i dont think anybody is downgrading herc solo/tank abilites. at least not me


anywa eot, i agree with most what u write. toons -espacially at end game- can do lotta different stuff. there are some obvious limits in game but ppl can bend them quite much if they put some more effort.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Any pet can be used to pull.

Saying that if something isn't fixed it must be intentional does not apply to PWI. The designers have left known flaws in the game for many years without any indication that they intend to fix them.

The damage aggro is only transferred to the veno when the pet is unsummoned but for some unknown reason proximity aggro is not.

There is no fb where it is impossible to proceed without pulling mobs one at a time. If you think pulling mobs one by one is required you've been playing on easy mode too long.

There are many unambiguous mechanics in the game specifically designed for engaging multiple enemies. Barbs for example have an aoe aggro skill to hold a group of mobs... If you've ever completed a rebirth run you can see how a squad can engage multiple mobs without pulling one at a time. In addition to aoe.. most classes in the game have skills like stun immobilize and silence. These skills can be used in tandem to hold adds while the party focuses on a single mob. In other games this is called "crowd control" or CC. This term is unused in pwi because of reliance on pet pull.

Honestly though why should there be no consequence to sending a pet into the middle of a swarm of mobs with no plan to fight them?

The pve of the game would be much more fun without any form of single mob pull.

Some pets are better at pulling than others. Speed does help in making for a better pull as most venos could testify to. Even the relatively slow Shaodu Cub is used as a puller by many because of it's speed relative to Magmites.

And i agree that there are many unresolved issues with the game. But, once again, take a look at the pet system. A lot of work went into designing some models, adjusting stats, even creating families of related species, etc. Yes, i've posted before that i suspect this system received a major nerf at some point but it's basics, which would include pulling, appear to remain untouched.

And i would posit that while not impossible, some fbs are extremely difficult to advance through without pulling for a same level squad. Fb 69 for instance. And crowd control would be difficult gainst adds surrounding bosses in fb39. Calcid in particular has a group of reavers at a distance that could prove risky for people trying AoE attacks.

And i really hope your easy mode comment wasn't a cheap shot at me playing veno...

Discussing mechanics will very likely take us nowhere since both our positions arise from our perspectives as what the game should be. I'm aware you consider crowd control tactics sufficient for all situations, i don't. Already the game was broken before any of us started playing with PWI, as players from the Malaysian brought their ideas about the game and stunted native evolution of many gameplay concepts.

But you have completely dodged what i consider my most compelling evidence, the distribution of stats amongst the pet systems. Why would pets with pulling characteristics become easily available when they are most needed if not otherwise? There's nothing random about it, and pulling traits can't be mistaken for those which would serve another purpose. What about the pet skill Slow? Venos don't kite when using a pet so it would serve no purpose if pulling with pets wasn't intended. And it almost always can be found in pets with high speed and high accuracy, the ones originally intended to be the best pullers.

I think that if you're serious about posting an informed opinion on this issue you should look into this. Many people think there isn't much to learn about venos but they're sorely mistaken.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

.

But you have completely dodged what i consider my most compelling evidence, the distribution of stats amongst the pet systems. Why would pets with pulling characteristics become easily available when they are most needed if not otherwise?

Easy-mode means to do an instance one mob at a time via pulling. When I was leveling I was in a few squads that insisted on pulling every mob in an instance simply because it was available and it gets slow and frustrating. Mostly fb39 back when that was the hardest instance lol.

I don't think you can say a fast pet is designed specifically for pulling. Fast pets with high accuracy were used frequently in PVP before nixes and hercs were introduced.

You should expects for a variety of pets to be available as you progress in the game but I wouldn't say those new pets are specifically designed for an instance. One of the strongest pets in the game is only available in lvl 19 or something despite it being the best tank for high level instances (before hercs).

If pets were designed around specific instances you would expect to have swap out a golem for a better tank appropriate to the level of the instance. To some degree this is done with water pets as most places you have water quests have tamable pets but I think there are some water quests in hell that don't have anything tamable in sight.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Easy-mode means to do an instance one mob at a time via pulling. When I was leveling I was in a few squads that insisted on pulling every mob in an instance simply because it was available and it gets slow and frustrating. Mostly fb39 back when that was the hardest instance lol.

I don't think you can say a fast pet is designed specifically for pulling. Fast pets with high accuracy were used frequently in PVP before nixes and hercs were introduced.

You should expects for a variety of pets to be available as you progress in the game but I wouldn't say those new pets are specifically designed for an instance. One of the strongest pets in the game is only available in lvl 19 or something despite it being the best tank for high level instances (before hercs).

If pets were designed around specific instances you would expect to have swap out a golem for a better tank appropriate to the level of the instance. To some degree this is done with water pets as most places you have water quests have tamable pets but I think there are some water quests in hell that don't have anything tamable in sight.

I never meant to imply just for one instance, faster pets continue to be available through high levels. And in PvP the pulling traits may be useful but not as much as high damage. Kowlin was at one time more widely used precisely because it had a good balance of both speed and damage (despite being a relatively fragile pet) but many fast pets actually have relatively low damage, and most of the top bracket in attack (Herc excluded for obvious reasons) is actually slow (Scorp, Magmites).

But let's go with your example. The top two performers for a couple of categories (Magmites and Petite Sawfly) can actually be found near the main cities of the (then) other two races. Almost as if they were meant to be found by adventurous explorers. There are also Mags available at around levels 30 and 60. For middle levels there's mechcrabs and for high levels Armoured Bear. Even if you didn't get a Volcanic or Crystalline at the appropiate range there seems to be an option available for a tanker pet that won't require much leveling. Yes, there are stretches in which you'll find no such suitable pet, the game isn't meant to be all that easy.

Same thing for magic tanks which at some point in development seemed to have been regarded as important. Oddfoot, Carapest, Antelope (with many variations), type 4 wolves, etc.

There is a logic behind the pet system which seems to have been muddled by certain changes at different development stages. I'm not sure for instance if ranged pets were meant as an easter egg of sorts. What i do know is there appears to be a pattern for pets with pulling traits based on speed, and that it seems to coincide with harder requirements for pulling pets. Speed has a deffinite impact on pulling and i would find it hard to believe it was meant as a trait important solely for PvP.

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But the problem with the above is not when the barb is dipping 20% in hp while the archer is dipping 40%. It's when the barb is dipping 30% while the archer is dipping 60%. Or 40% and 80%. The boss is still do-able with the archer tanking, but you have less margin for error. If another party member dies from an AOE, the cleric doesn't have time to res him.

I think we are in agreement then. I specifically mentioned the % because it was still considered safe. Boss patterns would come into play; if there are no AOEs, there is no sudden increase in damage and it's a constant 40% dip, it's still safe. I'd of course not want an archer to tank if the margin for error risks a squad wipe.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So a faster fight doesn't always benefit everyone; it comes at the cost of the occasional party wipe because your archer tank died in a situation where a barb would have survived. Whether that cost is worth the benefit of faster fights is for each group to decide.

I was thinking about how my squad handled bosses like Wyvern and Jewelscalen, and hopping on to a TT1-1 party with a lvl 60+ lead--we needed the battles to end fast. Long battles sometimes ended up having strange things in the middle. I neglected to think about the rest. So yeah, it's not always better. I'd opt for a barb to tank Farren and take it steadily than to have a ranged class **** it up and let it go on an AOE frenzy.