FF squads lately
Comments
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Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also in response to Golem doing more damage then Herc, thats a lie, they're right about even, because attack speed enters the equation. I'll use the level 90 stats provided by ecatomb;
The time calculations will be over the course of 8 seconds then divided by 8 for a per second calculation, the reason for this is you must include auto-bash for magmite to even stand in competition, and thats on an 8 second cycle.
...
You have assumed that bash takes no time.
If you use fraps or something, you will see that bash takes some time.I don't know, I've reached lvl98 by flying around the map, standing around arch for 10 minutes and running the same instance for the past few months. Lvling right now is far too easy and should not be used to guage skill of a player.
I believe you are omitting some important facts about you and how you got your levels.Malayshion - Lost City wrote: »So if you have an archer squadded better forget about the veno because the archer will probably end up stealing aggro. It takes a good bm and a good barb to keep aggro off archers, and from my experience hercs just don't cut it unless it's a fast miniboss or a few easy mobs.
You are both correct and incorrect, because this totally depends on your situation. In my experience, hercs can hold aggro from archers fairly decently on [?] bosses, but almost anyone can pull aggro from a herc in an underleveled FB.Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »the sum up i get is, Veno's are now the new tanks because barbs are too lazy to do what a barb should do, im not pointing fingers or flaming off but this new "craze" is leaving a lot of the "better" Veno's out of the action.
Venos have always been good tanks in some situation. Any class can be a tank in some circumstances, and people that have heavily invested in their characters (and all herc venos fall into this category) have some advantages when tanking.
None of this of course prevents people from being dumb about how they do things.0 -
Here's the thing abot FF...
You don't HAVE to have a herc to be in my squad. When I'm looking for a veno, I prefer a herc. Why? About 2 or 3 of the bosses work better while tanked w/ a herc. For instance... That one boss that spawns Bishops, will random aggro every 50 seconds or so, when tanked by a barb. For some reason, when tanked with a herc, it will not random aggro at all - unless someone is attackin' it.
I prefer 2 clerics in my squad as well. For the simple reason - cleric goes bottoms up, we'll partywipe. If you get a cleric + a wizzy, but no second cleric... Wizzy heals won't work on an AoE.
As for the lvl I prefer... I enjoy lvl 85+, however.... If you want to come, and are 80+, I'll take ya. This is mainly cause you need to be able to survive the bosses, and I'm kinda hoping ya know yer role as whatever char you are.0 -
Rebutia - Harshlands wrote: »I believe you are omitting some important facts about you and how you got your levels.
I started playing in 2008; don't go by my forum join date. And yes, for the past 20 levels I have been only dailing. Hardly skillfull.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »But really why would you wanna go with a veno that cant tank anything but a few mobs. Than you're better of picking another bm/wiz/archer
And most skilled venos does have herc, a skilled veno knows how to make enough money to get one or they have the brain to save up for one before 90+.
/thread
That is the only reason why you would want a Veno (read Herc) in FF. So it can tank the bosses. Skill doesnt take part in anything here.Like they say in my country:
When you are too smart, smartness eats you up.0 -
blah blah i just tanked all the bosses in FF with my golem (appart from debuff & last one) i can do whatever a herc'ed veno can in there, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
i still think ur a bunch of muppet's if u want a herc'ed veno only for the squad0 -
Not to mention that a properly skilled golem can hold aggro better than a herc.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I've done FF 3 times since I hit 80 I don't think u actually need a veno o.o
so a veno with herc or not doesn't matter as a barb in squad I need a good BM not a veno with herc LoLAll my Goals in Life Turned to be Offside b:surrender
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »blah blah i just tanked all the bosses in FF with my golem (appart from debuff & last one) i can do whatever a herc'ed veno can in there, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
i still think ur a bunch of muppet's if u want a herc'ed veno only for the squad
QQ seriously, just stick with faction FF's. Should be more reliable and flexible.
Besides, a level98, with a golem, isn't that all surprising to be to tank in FF which is probally equivalent to a Lv. 85-90 veno with a herc.
besides, veno seem like a waste of space in a squad for FF, but that's just me.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »Not to mention that a properly skilled golem can hold aggro better than a herc.
This is blasphemy for any golem with non-legendary skills. A hercules is useful for tanking such instances because the bosses are [?] leveled. Now, you might say, hey, all pets have no damage reduction. But, the reflect on the hercules can deal up to 4k damage just by the boss hitting hercules. (note that this isnt true with all bosses). 4k damage reflect + about 3.5k bash hits generate tons of aggro.I was early taught to work as well as play,
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This thing hasn't died yet?
Damn muppets.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sorry but my 2 cents is you sound like a bit of a hypocrit with this thread. You're saying barbs shouldnt whine & complain about having to shell out for the expenses of repairing due to tanking. All the while you're coming up with excuses for you yourself not wanting to shell out the money for a Herc. Believe me i feel your pain in trying to get one, i have a lvl 100 Veno also & it didnt get a Herc until it was 90. Took a while to earn it through in game coin only, but its expected to be able to fill the Veno role in all its purposes. 1 of those purposes is tanking a large amount of [?] type bosses in many dungeons. But if you say it should be expected that barbs should shell out cash for repairs, and clerics should shell out cash for MP, then likewise, Venos need to shell out cash for a Herc for PvE content, and a Nix for PvP content. It's only fair. You cant force them to spend in order that you can avoid spending.
same b:victoryb:victory
herc=end game pet b:dirtyGiodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »Having a Herc makes you more 'acceptable' and stands out from the non-Herc ones.
Chances of Herc-Veno accepted is always higher.
Venos do not spend much on the following:
1. Repairs
2. Pet food (provided you already have a tome).
Barb spends on repair bills, which is easily double of your expenses incurred. So if you want pretty fashion, then why can't the barb have the same desire as you?
A herc-veno is always valued higher than non-herc venos. People know that in a pinch, the herc can off-tank if there are no BM present, or Tank a boss.
Let me say it plainly: A veno without a herc is handicapped and does not bring any more value to the squad except DD and luring.
A Veno with a herc can do more than luring and DD, Herc can tank bosses fine, which a normal veno would have difficulty on.
In fact, by spending money on where it doesn't matter, make you look foolish . A veno's ricebowl would be their pets. Having good and cheap pets matters alot in a veno's career.
The first thing I ever spent money on, is for a herc @ pet sale last year. It is because with a Herc, I can solo things that I would normally require a squad for. In fact, I soloed (lure with eldergoth and tank with herc) so much so that I'm still having problems going back to my veno.
For example, BM tanks boss. BM dies due to adds (accidents can happen), veno's mag or glacial walker takes over and dies due to the dots that the boss stacks. Veno dies, cleric dies. 2 DD escaped.
In the above scenario, if the Veno had a herc, It would have prevented a squad wipe.
A herc's value lies in the fact that it can tank and soak up damage much better than all other pets. Though skills must be invested and kept up to date. But hey, it's good value for money.
Like it or not, there will always be people who will view you on the value of your pet. In other words, your value will always be lower than a Veno with herc on equal skills.
agrees b:pleased0 -
Veno Herc = no repair
Barb = ***** and complain about repairs and they want to get paid for doing simple things. barbs = tank, that is what they are made for. beyond that, all they have is PvP. Other than tanking, a barb is useless.Say my name 3 times, I dare you.
~Technotic
TrueMyths.Guildplex.com0 -
XxIfritxX - Lost City wrote: »I've done FF 3 times since I hit 80 I don't think u actually need a veno o.o
so a veno with herc or not doesn't matter as a barb in squad I need a good BM not a veno with herc LoL
veno = no damage reduction on bosses, aoe poison/debuff/stun-seal
at 98, i would imagine almost any pet could tank a FF boss. reflect buff will increase the damage a pet gives by a lot, and since herc has this buff inherently, its more desirable, additionally hercs can lure better if necessary because after a damage reflect, clerics wont pull aggro by healing.
as for the above, you've done it three times, keep running it with different squads, but barb tanking will slow you down in most cases.
the only 2 classes that are essential in FF are a BM and a Cleric.
Venos make things go faster and smoother, and easier to recast BB without stopping for chi.
DDs can be useful for the aoe parts, but haven't found them to be better than another BM.
Barbs are good for luring big groups and fragrance, but any BM can do the same luring with their speed skills, and most should be able to tank fragrance, though not as easily as a barb can.
@OP, um just get a herc already plx.
you dont see any 90+s running around with a white weapon they bought from the blacksmith do you?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »veno = no damage reduction on bosses, aoe poison/debuff/stun-seal
at 98, i would imagine almost any pet could tank a FF boss. reflect buff will increase the damage a pet gives by a lot, and since herc has this buff inherently, its more desirable, additionally hercs can lure better if necessary because after a damage reflect, clerics wont pull aggro by healing.
as for the above, you've done it three times, keep running it with different squads, but barb tanking will slow you down in most cases.
the only 2 classes that are essential in FF are a BM and a Cleric.
Venos make things go faster and smoother, and easier to recast BB without stopping for chi.
DDs can be useful for the aoe parts, but haven't found them to be better than another BM.
Barbs are good for luring big groups and fragrance, but any BM can do the same luring with their speed skills, and most should be able to tank fragrance, though not as easily as a barb can.
@OP, um just get a herc already plx.
you dont see any 90+s running around with a white weapon they bought from the blacksmith do you?
why don't you stfu and let the thread die? i got the answer i wanted ages ago0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »why don't you stfu and let the thread die? i got the answer i wanted ages ago
why don't you play nice?
thread should have never happened because you should have gotten a herc a long time ago :P
post on a public forum = open to the public
me = public
this isn't your private thread or your private forum.
deal with it.
I didnt make a "I'm a valid veno even though i dont have a herc" QQ thread veiled as a FF QQ thread, you did. 3000+ views and 100+ posts its a very popular thread, gratz on starting a movement!!b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »why don't you play nice?
thread should have never happened because you should have gotten a herc a long time ago :P
post on a public forum = open to the public
me = public
this isn't your private thread or your private forum.
deal with it.
I didnt make a "I'm a valid veno even though i dont have a herc" QQ thread veiled as a FF QQ thread, you did. 3000+ views and 100+ posts its a very popular thread, gratz on starting a movement!!b:chuckle
kk... lame attempt at post count0 -
Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »This thing hasn't died yet?
Damn muppets.
Godwin's Law invoked.
Kephras has decidedly lost the thread. Game over.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, it's me. Don't read to much into it, though; I'm only here for myself now, killin' time and chillin' when need-be. So sue me. Tch...0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »why don't you play nice?
thread should have never happened because you should have gotten a herc a long time ago :P
post on a public forum = open to the public
me = public
this isn't your private thread or your private forum.
deal with it.
I didnt make a "I'm a valid veno even though i dont have a herc" QQ thread veiled as a FF QQ thread, you did. 3000+ views and 100+ posts its a very popular thread, gratz on starting a movement!!b:chuckle
And there's where the popular "herc veno's are arrogant" sterotype comes from. b:surrender
Personally, if they know their class and are a pleasant person, I'd take a herc-less veno in my frost squad anyday.
And if I had the choice of a nice lv80 hercless veno looking to enjoy the game or an arrogant 10x only interested in fast exp.... pretty obvious to me which I'd choose.
Still, the veno/herc thing isn't quite as bad as the new mandatory endgame BM requirements the packs created. All 4 weapons/paths fully mastered, full -int gear and godly refines to compensate for hp (easily up to 1b in coin)....or else you just fail.0 -
I AM THE SOURCE OF ARROGANT VENOS!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM
A
GOD!!!!!
If you are playing the game like its srs bzns, which for a 98, i would think so, you should have figured out how to acquire the best pet you can get.
I cant think of any good reasons no to strive to make yourself as effective as you can, and for veno's that means getting a herc. Im not saying that hercless venos aren't effective or good players. because they can be, but your pet is a tool, you use it for damage dealing, luring and tanking, hercs are the best tanks, probably the best lure's and very good damage dealers, in the top 3.
maybe there are good reasons not to get a herc. I just cant think of any.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
A herc is an enabling tool. To borrow an aerospace term, it expands the veno's performance envelope, letting you potentially tank certain bosses you couldn't before, and making other encounters easier than they were before. Whether the veno is able to capitalize on those performance enhancements to become a better player is another matter.ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »I find the opposite can be true aswell. Since the Herc is that good it just breeds laziness in some not all Veno's.
Sent pet > heal and thats it. No amps no purges no dual DD with their pet when bosses allow.
Laziness is inherent in all classes regardless of what items/pets they have, it all depends on the player not the pet
IIRC, the claim you're thinking of was actually 60 mil in just under 3 weeks (i.e. 2.x weeks, and the person posting it loaned the veno the other 20 mil). Other people trying to disprove it misinterpreted it as 80 mil in 2 weeks.Its true; all you need to do is exploit the market. I have never quite made 80m in 2 weeks but I have gotten close before, mostly due to token trade.
FWIW, I made about 20 mil a week on my cat shop over the holidays, and I didn't even play the game. I checked and updated my shop once in the morning, and once before I went to sleep. Once you find some good items to sell and a good location, it's not that hard.
However, I won't use this to make any generalizations about the competence of herc venos vs. non-herc venos. Some people can't cat shop, or dislike merchanting, so I don't hold it against them. I prefer to find out how competent someone is by, wonder of wonders, actually grouping with them and playing together.
Gear, class, pets are just tools. The person at the controls matters the most. I prefer playing with competent people even if they don't have the best gear or best pets. I also find they're more open to experimenting, trying different and unusual tactics to kill a boss._DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Fastest frost run I've ever done had NO veno at all. Just because you can kill the bosses a minute or two faster doesn't mean you're gonna sail through the many hundred mobs there. If you're gonna get right down to it, 2 wizzies, 2 BM's, a barb and a cleric at lv90+ only, is all you should ever bring and **** every other class and level.
And yeah, I think BMs are terribly underrated in this game.
All you have to do is stand right next to your herc as it tanks the boss. The moment the circles appears, you run through the boss to the other side. If all the melee are attacking from the same side, the other side is almost always clear. The only problem I've had is the herc will sometimes not run straight to follow you. So you can't click follow, then attack. You have to click follow, verify that it actually has followed you to a safe spot, then click attack.Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ack! That would... be difficult. Very.
I've taken over the tanking for a short period in there, when the tank made a mis-step, but even not tanking I usually lose my pet two or three times.
And when tanking, you can't chainheal cause you'll get caught by the circles and when you tell the pet to come to you to get out of a circle the boss will follow...
It's probably easier at higher levels. But doing it with high-70s and low-80s players, I find that redundancy is more useful. Against this boss, it's really easy to **** up or get a lag bubble and suddenly the main tank is dead. If that happens to be a barb or BM, there's the whole res, exp loss, possible loss of quest credit (if the boss dies before the player is ressed), and rebuff thing to take care of. If it happens to a herc, you feed it a perfect cookie and it's as good as new.Though, since you pretty much have to have a barb or high-BM along anyway, for the final boss - why not let them do their job? That would give ME time to amp, which is almost certainly worth more than the reflect (since, you know, the tank will have brambles too)
FWIW, with gold at 400k, the cost of a herc is 746 days of 100k repair bills. If you figure the average repair bill is 60k, it's 1243 days. I dunno why barbs even bother complaining about repairs. It's such a trivial amount of money. The perfect stones from the OHT daily quest you get at 90+ should just about pay for it, so it's effectively free. If at that level you can't make 100-200k each night you play, you're doing something seriously wrong.Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »Veno Herc = no repair
Barb = ***** and complain about repairs and they want to get paid for doing simple things. barbs = tank, that is what they are made for.0 -
I was pissed the moment they came out with herc pets to be totally honest. A pet should NOT be able to replace a player, it's not good for the game. The fact that a herc can take the place of a barbarian, while convenient, is a total unbalance to the entire game.
And yes, I've met one too many lazy barbs... one of which, quit his barb to roll a veno and severely pissed me off. Apparently a veno+ herc is SOOOOO much more helpful than having a level 80+ barbarian with a cleric. I quit my bm for some time to raise a cleric to heal for him when our guild needed the help. That just seems to have possibly amounted for wasted time though my cleric I still plan on leveling anyways.
.... yeah I guess all I'm saying is I totally hate herc pets... and phoenix pets.
FF runs are also hard now days with the amount of oracle noobs. I've been called in on a run to replace a noob level 9x bm quite often which is total fail considering I'm only a level 76 fist user in unsharded TT70 gear.
Since the introduction of level enhancing/gear enhancing stuff to the boutique, souped up battle pets included, everything kinda suffered. FF runs aren't the ONLY thing...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I didnt read the whole thread but i prefer a herc to tank in tt , for the reason i know i wont steal agro.
In 3-1 for example , the 3 bosses near the timed boss can be killed with the spark bug. No barb can keep agro from perma demon spark.
It just makes me feel a lot safer knowing the whole squad can maximize their dps without having to watch for agro.0 -
majority of the dungeons i do where there are ?lvl bosses, i tank, unless the boss uses some sort of debuff (which usually = dead herc). only 1 boss like that in frost.
sometimes, the barb will just rush in anyway, but my herc always gets the aggro after a min or two, except for a few times when there was a much higher lvld barb (but that probably wont be happening anymore).
this has also been the case (pet stealing aggro from a barb tanking a ?lvl boss) on the rare occasions i use a scorpion for sheer dd. the scorpion cannot survive the hits.
and really, 2-3 venos in a frost squad is enough to finish in under an hour with a full squad in the 80-90 lvl range. it doesnt matter which pets they use to dd the bosses.0 -
This game favors people who spend money.
Just keep this in mind.
Having been around enough Venomancers who tote around the Greek Golden Buddha, I can safely say that they do give Venomancers an unfair advantage to everything on land and in dungeons.
Using myself as bait, me and 2 Venomancers lured Jewelscalen to the ground and killed him. They both healed the Hercules with me on the side wailing on him.
We won in only a few minutes and I was struck with the feeling that we had just kicked the game developers in the balls.
They can do Bounty Hunter Quests alone and obliterate any monster in the game, including ones well above their level, simply by hitting the Heal Pet button every 30 seconds.
But can you blame them? It costs a lot of money to get that, and you really do get your money's worth. Name me a Venomancer that WOULDN'T take advantage of that, or any other class if they had something they could buy to make the game a cakewalk.
Let's hope the developers can fix this issue in the future, or else 50% of all players will soon be Venomancers. Whee...
On the topic of horrendous repair bills, so long as you let the tank get some drops to sell for paying his bill after the dungeon, I figure you're being fair. I always make sure I get some, or I let the person who is tanking get some drops. It's not hard to sell some Dragon Quest items or shoddy armor to get the money."What man would go into the dark without a light?"
"That's a silly question. What man would go into the dark?"0 -
Veno with herc for FF?
Makes no sense to me at all.
Give me 3 BMs 2 wiz and a cleric or 3 wiz 2 BMs and a cleric and we'll be done in less than an hour. I don't want veno's I don't want barbs. Time is money or so they say.
edited to add: I would take an archer in a pinch to replace one of the wizo's if archers still put up zhens anymore. Since they don't, and I'm I'll be the one getting hit even if they do, I say **** um.
Too be completely clear on the matter at hand in my opinion a veno (with herc, or not) is worthless in FF I'd take an archer who refuses to zhen before a veno.0 -
Why would one use herc when squadded in the first place? If I had a herc--I don't because I don't care enough about soloing PvE stuff to waste the coin--I would not be using it when I was squadded. Why? Because it's not the job I do in a squad. If I want to spam heal on a pet, I'll go solo, really. In a squad, my job is to debuff and DD. Herc may have good DPS, but he cannot debuff, he cannot cancel spell channeling, and he cannot spam multiple damage skills. Thus, I chose to use a pet that can so that I may do my job better. If I'm going to tank something in a squad, then I'll do it myself, where I can still use most of me debuffs, I'm pretty sure the combined damage from pet debuffs, pet skills, ironwood, and amp outweigh the extra damage from cleric being able to DD constantly instead of intermittenly.
Really, I have nothing against herc venos--most I have met are competent, and some of the people I most prefer to work with are herc venos. I've had better luck doing FB/BH/TT with them than with traditional squads when it's possible--but I don't think whether or not a veno has herc makes much of a difference when it comes to working in a traditional squad. The point of a traditional squad, after all, is to have a tank + cleric combo with DDs making it faster. If herc is going to tank, then why bother with a traditional squad?Thus, agree with OP.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So, I heard HA veno is the way to go?
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Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »all i see across WC is "Veno + Herc wanted for FF"
so i thought id ask someone why this is the case (convo of a person advertising on WC for a party and me)
the sum up i get is, Veno's are now the new tanks because barbs are too lazy to do what a barb should do, im not pointing fingers or flaming off but this new "craze" is leaving a lot of the "better" Veno's out of the action.
in my eyes the barb should be tanking and we have done runs in 1Hr this way.
am i wrong or being a bit "im not happy coz i cant go?", constructive criticism please
Hercs can tank bosses so the WB and EP can both damage deal. What do you think would be faster? a veno DD or and EP+WB. Plus, for bosses like the one that spawns addons a herc can tank while everyone dds the addons. Even the veno. So there ya go0 -
yea barb lazy cuz of repair b:laugh think that me b:cry0
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Yaoshi - Harshlands wrote: »yea barb lazy cuz of repair b:laugh think that me b:cry
lazy barb u guys try holding a key for 2hoursb:cry0 -
ussally the reason ppl have venos tank ...at least in my experiance is so the cleric can DD and more DD makes it die faster. but i am happy to tank any boss it doesnt matter to me as long as the boss dies0
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