FF squads lately

kenlee

what about last boss? herc can tank it easy, also i can do amplify and purge whe he buff

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ack! That would... be difficult. Very.
I've taken over the tanking for a short period in there, when the tank made a mis-step, but even not tanking I usually lose my pet two or three times.

And when tanking, you can't chainheal cause you'll get caught by the circles and when you tell the pet to come to you to get out of a circle the boss will follow...

That is going to be mountains of pain. I shall have to see if the next squad I'm with will let me try.

Though, since you pretty much have to have a barb or high-BM along anyway, for the final boss - why not let them do their job? That would give ME time to amp, which is almost certainly worth more than the reflect (since, you know, the tank will have brambles too)

It's all about timing and anticipation really, and takes only paying attention to get down (like knowing your herc's melee range), just like doing DD in your solo runs on 3-1 or any run really, opposed to MP charming yourself and taping down the heal button and going afk. Try it more I would say.

As a veno, you would stand right where the barb/bms stand. Circle appears, put herc on follow, move herc out of circles, have herc attack. Circle appears 2x in the same spot every time, giving you time to heal, amp, myriad, dd. I anticipate the circles appearing in the next spot so I'm already moving the herc by the time they appear.

On the next point, I mean it's common sense that barbs are tanks, but for the most part they spend their levels tanking and eating pot+repair costs. Yes, I know barbs should be used to it, but why is it a must for them when one can get a herc veno that incurs no repair cost? The only boss the barb needs to do is Fragrance, and I emphasize this every FF run I bring my veno on. Only one time has a barb ever argued with it and this guy was rather emo anyways and prone to reactionary fits.

People for the most part treat FF like it needs to be serious, like it has to be a 1 hour 5 min run or it's fail, or that a barb must tank in place of a herc veno or else he needs to pick another class. At least, this is the prevailing attitude I've read thusfar. I don't do serious FF runs or FF runs that are more focused on quickness than fun. Generally mine take (and I tend to roll with the same squads) 1hr20 mins to 1hr45 mins, we take a smoke/coffee/fap/stretch break after the messenger of fear boss when we teleport, and things are lax.

kenlee

btw, no repair costs but mp pots since many times there isnt room to do metabolic/nature grace. then you use myriad and other skills that eat your mp. not complaining but both use mp while barb only ends up with much more repair bills

Kephras - Heavens Tear

Not that anybody's gonna read this on page ten, but I'll reiterate broad-spectrum so the point maybe gets through:

Cash-shop items (herc/nix included!) should not be REQUISITES in an F2P MMO

Now, the mentality is otherwise of course. Obviously. Because they make life so much easier, and enable things that would otherwise be much more difficult.
I refuse to say impossible, because there are always other avenues to success, they just take more skill, and sometimes a bit of hard work and effort to find (kinda like bug-testing I suppose, but without the intent to break & exploit the game mechanics).

So, to the topic of the thread: "Is a herc veno better than a veno without?"

Only if it's the same player.

Santacruz - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

first thing i can say is that you are 98 without herc so better shut up and think again

ohh sorry your lord ship, i didnt jump on the band wagon and follow every other veno. i CHOSE not to get one, i rely on the strengths of a good working team to do the jobs their permitted to do

Barb's for tanking, veno's for luring, bm's for aoe and stuns etc

coz back in my days thats all we had; was teamwork.

nowadays people seem to be completely blind to the fact that teamwork exists, its sad really

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

btw, no repair costs but mp pots since many times there isnt room to do metabolic/nature grace. then you use myriad and other skills that eat your mp. not complaining but both use mp while barb only ends up with much more repair bills

You're joking right? You have like 10 seconds to do mb/ng/st when you have already positioned the herc. That's enough time to heal twice, amp, myriad, and throw in an ironwood before an anticipated move toward the next spot to avoid the circles. If you have time to heal or amp or dd at all then you have time to mb/ng/st. It's hard to believe something this simple is really that difficult.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

back in my days

Back in my days, nostalgia was fail. Oh wait, that's now.

Aya__ - Heavens Tear

b:shocked another 'why are venos without hercs considered useless' thread...
i know it wont do any good, but will try anyway....b:surrender
1) ppl can want in their squad whoever they want. its their squad... dont like their choices - make your own and invite whomever you want there
2) if you think they are wrong you may try to explain but they dont have to accept your point
3) having a herc doesnt make you a good veno. not having a herc doesnt make you a good veno.
3a) any class can be good or bad, good players tend to recognize each other when see them in action... i dont measure other clerics by gears / charms / whatever but by skills and how they use them
3b) if you dont like having to prove yourself over and over again to strangers go ff with friends
4) herc DOES have more hp than magmite / walker of the same level, so it can take more damage = its better tank. add reflect to this and you have best tanking pet, it was designed that way so kinda hard to argue
4a) main veno tasks in squad are: lure, debuff, dd. at least it was like this when friends who got me to play this game explained classess to me. oh well, things do change...
5) very good veno can try tanking all ff bossess with herc but some are just easier with player tank. especially bombs one and slasher (im bad at remembering their names) so id recommend barb anyway. and bm to aoe mobs too
And as a side note on 'lazy barbs'
6) i play one of more expensive classess myself... knew this will be like that from the beginning. most barbs did know their costs too - or could have easily checked before they rolled. ok, everyone prefers to pay less than more, but some costs cant be avoided. ppl qqing about it are just annoying...

ok. im done b:shutup

Santacruz - Heavens Tear

just close this thread -_-

people went wide off the mark of my opening post

Joshcja - Sanctuary

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm a BM but...

You think if a 95+ barb can't hold agro on it and a 95+ herc has died to it....we're gonna do any better? O.o

fists ftw? being the highest DD in party really helps hold aggro no?

and a well geared bm will out tank hercs 10-20 levels higher

case in point....wur, 1-3 drum and SB, any boss in 2-3, any situation with any # of non ? mobs/bosses that need aggro held on and past 95 those to

kenlee

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're joking right? You have like 10 seconds to do mb/ng/st when you have already positioned the herc. That's enough time to heal twice, amp, myriad, and throw in an ironwood before an anticipated move toward the next spot to avoid the circles. If you have time to heal or amp or dd at all then you have time to mb/ng/st. It's hard to believe something this simple is really that difficult.

why do you keep going with that first boss? im talking in general, i'd like to see you doing that combo on the other bosses that kinda hit hard and they stun/sleep. not to mention that mb/ng/st have 5 minutes reuse while you doing myriad myriad every 20 sec will kill your mp alot faster

Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ohh sorry your lord ship, i didnt jump on the band wagon and follow every other veno. i CHOSE not to get one, i rely on the strengths of a good working team to do the jobs their permitted to do

Barb's for tanking, veno's for luring, bm's for aoe and stuns etc

coz back in my days thats all we had; was teamwork.

nowadays people seem to be completely blind to the fact that teamwork exists, its sad really

are you kidding right? just because other venos get herc doesnt mean that is something bad, there is a reason that venos want a herc. i guess you wont go arcane either because you wont jump on the band wagon and follow other venos.
veno luring age is over since genies are out. are you saying that now there isnt any teamwork?!

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

fists ftw? being the highest DD in party really helps hold aggro no?

and a well geared bm will out tank hercs 10-20 levels higher

case in point....wur, 1-3 drum and SB, any boss in 2-3, any situation with any # of non ? mobs/bosses that need aggro held on and past 95 those to

i would like to see when someone gonna steal agro from my pet in TT

Kephras - Heavens Tear

Dear Thread,

I regret to inform you that your topic has expired. For safety and enforcement reasons, we have brought V along to serve you your notice.

We thank you in advance for your cooperation.

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Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

I don't even run FFs not because off the repair bill off bosses which i could care less about

but the pulls, and then keeping agro from all those mobs will cost me alot more dearly then tanking a few bosses(both repairs and genie stamina for alpha male)

and off course the you must be experienced rule i see in each WC shout nowadays

Kephras - Heavens Tear

Psst, Kev. Thread is dead.



Future offenders will be fed to the man in the moon.

axt57

Protip: getting a herc does not kill off teamwork. That has to be the worst excuse for not having a herc I have ever seen.

Kephras - Heavens Tear

to The Moon With You!

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

why do you keep going with that first boss? im talking in general, i'd like to see you doing that combo on the other bosses that kinda hit hard and they stun/sleep. not to mention that mb/ng/st have 5 minutes reuse while you doing myriad myriad every 20 sec will kill your mp alot faster

Because you responded to posts talking about that boss. And my bad, I thought we were actually talking about FF, opposed to every single boss in the game.

You also have the option of cloud eruption (since you mentioned genies), sparks, apoth.. only an incompetent veno will sit there and just eat pot after pot and not use whatever they can use at their disposal.

are you kidding right? just because other venos get herc doesnt mean that is something bad, there is a reason that venos want a herc. i guess you wont go arcane either because you wont jump on the band wagon and follow other venos.

b:chuckle

i would like to see when someone gonna steal agro from my pet in TT

Wait til your late 90s. It will be something one sees fairly often, especially with highly refined weapons.

Protip: getting a herc does not kill off teamwork. That has to be the worst excuse for not having a herc I have ever seen.

Pretty much. One of the worst excuses ever.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Dear Thread,

I regret to inform you that your topic has expired. For safety and enforcement reasons, we have brought V along to serve you your notice.

We thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
-Management.

+1
No, wait.
+over 9000

Please let this thread die now.

Some people like Herc venos.
Some venos dislike Herc venos.
Some people dislike Herc venos.
Some people like Herc venos.

Provided you can go through FC and survive with teamwork from all players - Herc around or not - does it honestly matter?

kenlee

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Because you responded to posts talking about that boss. And my bad, I thought we were actually talking about FF, opposed to every single boss in the game.

You also have the option of cloud eruption (since you mentioned genies), sparks, apoth.. only an incompetent veno will sit there and just eat pot after pot and not use whatever they can use at their disposal.


b:chuckle


Wait til your late 90s. It will be something one sees fairly often, especially with highly refined weapons.


Pretty much. One of the worst excuses ever.

- well since you mentioned cloud eruption and sparks, its not about that. even as demon i have enough chi. now, there are apo items that i use and sometimes i go and pick up flowers (lol) but now its even cheaper to buy mp pots with tokens (for clerics too) and i can make those moneys from other things
- about stealing agro, well, high lvl archers and wiz steal agro very easy in fb's but i havent seen in TT. tho.. we have a r8 in guild that can solo most bosses and i bet he would be the only one that would do it.

Telarith - Sanctuary

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm a BM but...

You think if a 95+ barb can't hold agro on it and a 95+ herc has died to it....we're gonna do any better? O.o

With Deicide claws and -interval gear? Yes, yes I do Though venos passing chi are a beautiful thing as well. Nothing like Dragon Bane mixed with Demon Spark spam Lovely 31K hits 2.86 times a second in BH79 still has a nice damage amount on ? bosses.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

You haven't done FF a lot, have you? Either that, or you're doing it wrong.

Herc venos are extremely useful on a few of those bosses, especially the ones that spawn mobs. Have the herc hold down the boss, while the rest of the party kills off the mobs. It makes those bosses a lot easier.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

With Deicide claws and -interval gear? Yes, yes I do Though venos passing chi are a beautiful thing as well. Nothing like Dragon Bane mixed with Demon Spark spam Lovely 31K hits 2.86 times a second in BH79 still has a nice damage amount on ? bosses.

Fine. I give up, replace the tank barb and herc veno in frost with a fist BM or 2. -.-

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

fists ftw? being the highest DD in party really helps hold aggro no?

and a well geared bm will out tank hercs 10-20 levels higher

case in point....wur, 1-3 drum and SB, any boss in 2-3, any situation with any # of non ? mobs/bosses that need aggro held on and past 95 those to

Heck, while we're at it, no more barbs or hercs needed for TT ever again. Fist BM's are all you need. Solo tanking 2-3 wurlord and 1-3 drummy? Not a problem.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Oooh yes, I'd forgetten the spark passing to keep that rolling zhenn going.

That and the amp is certainly a good reason to bring a veno along on that run.


As for bosses - can we really herc tank that last boss? I was told not to. And the bishop-spawning boss we had the barb tank (slowly) - I pulled my pet off to help continue the stunlock+kill on the bishops as they arrived.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oooh yes, I'd forgetten the spark passing to keep that rolling zhenn going.

That and the amp is certainly a good reason to bring a veno along on that run.


As for bosses - can we really herc tank that last boss? I was told not to. And the bishop-spawning boss we had the barb tank (slowly) - I pulled my pet off to help continue the stunlock+kill on the bishops as they arrived.

For the last boss, leave it to the barb. It hits a little too hard for a herc to tank. As for the bishop boss, it can work either way. Usually the squads I was with had the herc holding the boss while everyone killed the bishops as they spawned.

Usually works just fine.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

For all those who keep saying the barb should reroll, I realize you have a opinion, and it can easily differ from my own, I am not trying to force this opinion on anyone, it just feels like just about everyone has missed it, although I can't really blame you all for it. I for one don't go back rereading pages, to read every comment.

... Me...

It's not just the veno's fault that a squad fails without a herc, it is a WE kind of thing, we all play a role, obviously the faster the bosses go down, the easier it is on us all.

One more thing, while it is true its ultimately safer to go with a barb, then a herc/veno (who can tank) it is also not the best place for a barb to go it is normally a HUGE waste of cash for repair.

In just about every other instance there is some sort of income OTHER THEN COIN that lessens the blow to the barbs wallet. (Though some would argue that the barb doesn't get the 'best' drops, they do at least get some.) There really isn't anything like this in the ff instance. YES, there is the chance of getting a item to drop from certain bosses, the chances of one dropping is pretty rare, and even rarer still for it to go to the barb. I do realize there is the prize for 85+ at the end of the run (it can be a pretty crappy worthless item), and the shards after the boss, though again, how often does it actually go to the barb?

Really in my honest opinion, I can't blame barbs for not wanting to tank this instance, I really prefer to have them to pull, and let a veno... who CAN tank it, tank it, that way there is far less chances of a "QQ" my repair bill is outrageous I 'want' that shard, or item drop. I do realize there is a boss in there that no veno could tank, but one repair bill from a boss, and the pulls is NOTHING compared to tanking all the bosses.)

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

- well since you mentioned cloud eruption and sparks, its not about that. even as demon i have enough chi. now, there are apo items that i use and sometimes i go and pick up flowers (lol) but now its even cheaper to buy mp pots with tokens (for clerics too) and i can make those moneys from other things
- about stealing agro, well, high lvl archers and wiz steal agro very easy in fb's but i havent seen in TT. tho.. we have a r8 in guild that can solo most bosses and i bet he would be the only one that would do it.

It's more efficient to simply use st/ng/mb, use sparks, and timing, and actually farm apoth (nothing is cheaper than free) than to simply buy a bunch of pots with tokens. Kinda defeats the purpose of a veno's profits when burning through ****. In FF, this is just as essential.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary

I've tanked a frost before on a 60k or so repair bill afterwards. Honestly, it's cheaper than a BH wine split and a vast amount more exp.

If there's a herc veno already present in the squad who can tank, by all means let the herc tank and save repairs a little. But excluding hercless veno's and making herc a requirement because the barb refuses to shoulder a few k extra repair is pushing it a little.

Telarith - Sanctuary

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Fine. I give up, replace the tank barb and herc veno in frost with a fist BM or 2. -.-



Heck, while we're at it, no more barbs or hercs needed for TT ever again. Fist BM's are all you need. Solo tanking 2-3 wurlord and 1-3 drummy? Not a problem.

It's not complete fist fanaticism, but acknowledging the role they have. I wouldn't use fist to AoE, I would use axe as it is superior to them. I wouldn't use fists to attack targets that are able to run away or are ranged with fists, I would use either sword or spear depending on equipment, chi, and effects wanted. And similarly, I wouldn't tank a boss that just stands in one place with something other than fist as a BM, as that would just be bad. 1-3 I am unsure of, haven't needed it. 1-2 was easy to tank/DD with a lvl 60 cleric solo healing though, so comparing damage increase 1-3 isn't difficult with a higher level cleric in similar gear of higher level.

Favoring one style doesn't mean I'll ignore the benefits of the others in whichever circumstance, as such boss fighting will be looked at from the most efficient method for BMs: Fists.

EDIT: And as long as a veno pet can bring desired target over, I don't care what they have. They have other skills they can use which are very effective, even got a spark passed while tanking a BH79 earlier which helped out. Then the amp is quite nice as well, and lucky Myriad procs are always welcome. Honestly venos have so much they can add in support, I don't see why there is so much emphasis on which particular pet they have. A veno that knows how to use their skills, and sees when to use them, is alot more useful than just another herc drone who may or may not know it. Only difficulty is in random groups, you have no idea who knows their stuff or not without doing a run with them first.

MadamVixen - Heavens Tear

Well I'm a Herc Veno, but never have had ambitions to be the "main tank" in any squad I join. I'm happy being the Lurer, DD help, and back up tank IF something goes wrong and I need to act quickly. I'm MORE then happy to let my Barb Hubby tank in any squad as he's great at what he does and knows his job IS to be the tank. The only time I tank, is when him and I are grinding alone or farming, so he can DD and help bring the boss, mini boss, whatever down quicker. But he'll never take a step back from tanking to "save on repairs". If that was the case, he wouldn't have rolled a Barb as his main.

But, do keep in mind...unforuntunately, there are some TERRIBLE tanks out there and I think that's where the Herc Veno may come in from time to time. And I've seen Non-Herc Venos do an outstanding job as well, so not too sure why they get passed by in my opinion. I do think ppl shouldn't be so quick to dismiss someone because they don't have a tubby yellow buddha by their side. I still have my Maggie Tiny and use him from time to time and if I hadn't had the opportunity to obtain my Herc Huey, I'd still be proudly using Tiny as my main battle pet.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

MadamVixen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If that was the case, he wouldn't have rolled a Barb as his main.

Bah not trying to single you out or anything, because numerous people have said the same thing.

While I understand that being a barb there will be times where avoiding a repair bill is just a ludicrous thought, but to think that everyone created there barb with the understanding they will always have an outrageous repair bill, is even more ludicrous at least in my honest opinion.

Also to whom it may concern I do have a barb, and realize there is/are costs to tanking, but as I said earlier... to reiterate if you will, in every other instance but ff, there is/are things that get dropped, and the barb has more then a 'fair' chance to get something to lessen the blow to there wallet... so to speak. Another tidbit is that my barb IS a TANK barb, not one of those infamous dd barbs. I for one would like to go to ff one day, and let a veno do a majority of the tanking, not because I can't, its because I don't have loads of extra cash on any of my characters to constantly dish out for repairs, armor, weapons, and skills.