FF squads lately
Comments
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Sorry but my 2 cents is you sound like a bit of a hypocrit with this thread. You're saying barbs shouldnt whine & complain about having to shell out for the expenses of repairing due to tanking. All the while you're coming up with excuses for you yourself not wanting to shell out the money for a Herc. Believe me i feel your pain in trying to get one, i have a lvl 100 Veno also & it didnt get a Herc until it was 90. Took a while to earn it through in game coin only, but its expected to be able to fill the Veno role in all its purposes. 1 of those purposes is tanking a large amount of [?] type bosses in many dungeons. But if you say it should be expected that barbs should shell out cash for repairs, and clerics should shell out cash for MP, then likewise, Venos need to shell out cash for a Herc for PvE content, and a Nix for PvP content. It's only fair. You cant force them to spend in order that you can avoid spending.
Also in response to Golem doing more damage then Herc, thats a lie, they're right about even, because attack speed enters the equation. I'll use the level 90 stats provided by ecatomb;
The time calculations will be over the course of 8 seconds then divided by 8 for a per second calculation, the reason for this is you must include auto-bash for magmite to even stand in competition, and thats on an 8 second cycle.
Herc;
attack speed = 0.8 atk/sec = 1 attack every 1.25 seconds.
---8 seconds / (1.25 sec/atk) = 6.4 attacks in 8 seconds
attack power = 2672 * 6.4 attacks = 17100.8 Damage in 8 seconds
Bash 5 = 200% damage per attack. This doesnt seem to interfere with regular attack cycle.
---17100.8 Damage + (2 * 2672)[Bash] = 22444.8 Damage in 8 seconds.
22444.8 / 8 seconds = 2805.6 dmg/sec (assuming no p.resist in opponent).
Crystaline Magmite;
attack speed = 0.6 atk/sec = 1 attack every 1.667 seconds.
---8 seconds / (1.667 sec/atk) = 4.8 attacks in 8 seconds
attack power = 3240 * 4.8 attacks = 15552.0 Damage in 8 seconds
Bash 5 = 200% damage per attack. This doesnt seem to interfere with regular attack cycle.
---15552.0 Damage + (2 * 3240)[Bash] = 22032.0 Damage in 8 seconds.
22032.0 / 8 seconds = 2754.0 dmg/sec (assuming no p.resist in opponent).
So even tho the Magmite hits harder per hit, the Herc indeed comes out by a minute amount better in damage per second. Without auto-bash, Herc would actually be signifigantly better. Now if Herc is tanking, it reflects huge chunks of damage back to the opponent (If i'm tanking 2-2 Ape, its reflecting nearly 7k damage per Ape attack back at Ape every 1.5(unconfirmed?) seconds near the end of its life.0 -
I'm a barb so i know what I want.I want that boss down as fast as possible.This means I want all the DDs to nuke as madmans.When I was tanking with people I didn't knew that was the first thing I was telling them:"don't hold back your damage".Yes killing it the fastest means less repairs for me so it's not an ego thing or arrogance.Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think it all boils down to the fact that you are lazy. It's your job as a DD to control DPS, by WHATEVER means necessary. Having a HERC tanks just need you to be more careful.
Seriously, a DD is a like a DOT spell, you assist to do damage on the target, with the freedom to stop / nerf your damage down.
Thank god you are not on HT.
As DD now i don't expect barbs to be as good as I was so I rarelly steal aggro now without wanting it,so don't worry about my dd control.0 -
Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »By refusing to spend coins / gold on a herc and qq about it, makes you sound childish.
Why do you have to come troll in here and attack me? did i attack you?
fyi.. no its because i chose to spend my coin and gold on things i do like in this game like Armour, fashion and weapons and hell buying friends presents.
your completely entitled to say i should have bought a herc instead, but why should i be punished for it later on? this isnt a QQ thread as i said in my opening post, its a an open opinion thread.
my argument is in plain English so you kids can understand it..
"i can do FF exactly the same and most probably better than half of you out there with herc's, so why are you wanting herc'ed venos only"0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »fyi.. no its because i chose to spend my coin and gold on things i do like in this game like Armour, fashion and weapons and hell buying friends presents.
... but why should i be punished for it later on?
Maybe the Barb wants to spend his money on Armor, fashion, and weapons, rather then repairs? why should he be punished for it later on?Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »"i can do FF exactly the same and most probably better than half of you out there with herc's, so why are you wanting herc'ed venos only"
2 equally skilled players, 1 with a herc to help tank bosses (and do more dps as my above post shows), and 1 without. No you cant do the job better without.0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »"i can do FF exactly the same and most probably better than half of you out there with herc's, so why are you wanting herc'ed venos only"
Idiots exist in numbers too great to ignore, and too few to make them useful.
edit: Darksylph, there's a lot more to being a veno than just how well your pet can hit. +Herc doesn't automatically make the veno any more skilled, and I think that's the point 'Cruz is trying to drive home here.0 -
You're absolutely right. However my point is, all things being equal, equal player skill, equal gear, everything on par, 1 with herc vs. 1 without. A Veno without a Herc has absolutely no grounds to say "I dont have a Herc thereby i am more skilled.", that simply has no basis in fact. As i mentioned further up this page i have a Veno at lvl 100, so i'm not speaking from outside the class. And i couldnt afford Herc till level 90, but knew it was something i had to have by end game to be useful, and slowly saved up the in-game coin to get it. I am a very good Veno in my oppinion, and then on top of that i added the Herc.Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »edit: Darksylph, there's a lot more to being a veno than just how well your pet can hit.
Yes but having a Herc doesnt make you any less skilled, which is the way 'cruz does make it sound. And then adding a Herc to the equation allows to you be more beneficial to the group, by taking some of the workload off the barb, and being a secondary tank. Not to mention several bosses in FF need 1 to tank the boss and another the tank the adds. She also infers that Herc does less damage thereby having it out is a nerf to your dps, which is what my calculations were disproving, so in the end, by having the added utility of the tankability you lose nothing.Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »+Herc doesn't automatically make the veno any more skilled, and I think that's the point 'Cruz is trying to drive home here.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »2 equally skilled players
no there not, this is what i am trying to sayKephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »there's a lot more to being a veno than just how well your pet can hit. +Herc doesn't automatically make the veno any more skilled, and I think that's the point 'Cruz is trying to drive home here.
and Keph has nailed it
yes there are good and bad veno's, but people seem to take it for granted that if a veno has a herc; it is instantly pro, and that shones the rest of us herc'less veno's into the shadows because were instantly judged as ****, where its the complete opposite in many cases.MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »As a mid-leveled veno is always frustrating to remind myself the stigma attached to not having an herc will endure into high levels. I've actually come to see it as a badge of honor. Those of us who can't afford an herc (or choose other pets) have to prove our worth every step of the way. It does have it's rewarding moments however, especially when you get chosen over ther herc'ed veno for further runs...
this is how many of us feel, and it shouldn't be like this0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »no there not, this is what i am trying to say
This is where your argument fails. You have absolutely no basis in fact to say that because you dont have a herc, that you are more skilled.0 -
Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »Why do you have to come troll in here and attack me? did i attack you?
fyi.. no its because i chose to spend my coin and gold on things i do like in this game like Armour, fashion and weapons and hell buying friends presents.
your completely entitled to say i should have bought a herc instead, but why should i be punished for it later on? this isnt a QQ thread as i said in my opening post, its a an open opinion thread.
my argument is in plain English so you kids can understand it..
"i can do FF exactly the same and most probably better than half of you out there with herc's, so why are you wanting herc'ed venos only"
Having a Herc makes you more 'acceptable' and stands out from the non-Herc ones.
Chances of Herc-Veno accepted is always higher.
Venos do not spend much on the following:
1. Repairs
2. Pet food (provided you already have a tome).
Barb spends on repair bills, which is easily double of your expenses incurred. So if you want pretty fashion, then why can't the barb have the same desire as you?
A herc-veno is always valued higher than non-herc venos. People know that in a pinch, the herc can off-tank if there are no BM present, or Tank a boss.
Let me say it plainly: A veno without a herc is handicapped and does not bring any more value to the squad except DD and luring.
A Veno with a herc can do more than luring and DD, Herc can tank bosses fine, which a normal veno would have difficulty on.
In fact, by spending money on where it doesn't matter, make you look foolish . A veno's ricebowl would be their pets. Having good and cheap pets matters alot in a veno's career.
The first thing I ever spent money on, is for a herc @ pet sale last year. It is because with a Herc, I can solo things that I would normally require a squad for. In fact, I soloed (lure with eldergoth and tank with herc) so much so that I'm still having problems going back to my veno.
For example, BM tanks boss. BM dies due to adds (accidents can happen), veno's mag or glacial walker takes over and dies due to the dots that the boss stacks. Veno dies, cleric dies. 2 DD escaped.
In the above scenario, if the Veno had a herc, It would have prevented a squad wipe.
A herc's value lies in the fact that it can tank and soak up damage much better than all other pets. Though skills must be invested and kept up to date. But hey, it's good value for money.
Like it or not, there will always be people who will view you on the value of your pet. In other words, your value will always be lower than a Veno with herc on equal skills.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »You're absolutely right. However my point is, all things being equal, equal player skill, equal gear, everything on par, 1 with herc vs. 1 without.
b:chuckle
All things are not equal, certainly not players' skills. Yes, I concede that the same veno swapping pets might do better with a herc, but there's already an ancient, rotting thread that beat that particular topic to death, and I don't want to see it resurrected.A Veno without a Herc has absolutely no grounds to say "I dont have a Herc thereby i am more skilled.", that simply has no basis in fact.
Agreed. Making generalized statements is a flawed arguement. However, I've worked with Santacruz once or twice, and I can say quite certainly that she doesn't need a herc to completely kick ****.
b:victoryAs i mentioned further up this page i have a Veno at lvl 100, so i'm not speaking from outside the class. And i couldnt afford Herc till level 90, but knew it was something i had to have by end game to be useful, and slowly saved up the in-game coin to get it. I am a very good Veno in my oppinion, and then on top of that i added the Herc.
Honestly, I think this just perpetuates the problem. If more venos, collectively, stood up and said "I don't HAVE to have a herc!", we wouldn't have these issues. All the lazy or fail squads looking for an easy way out, all the barbs who can't or won't deal with class responsibilities*, would leave them at a disadvantage, which means they'd either have to step up and suck it up, or step off.
*And back around my 70's, I ran into a big problem, being constantly broke and unable to afford repairs. Had to say no to a few TT and FB runs, simply because I couldn't afford to take any more damage. Y'know what I did? I spent a weekend or two on Nightscream grinding, eventually got myself out of the hole, and even managed to buy my TT80 gear. A little effort goes a long way.0 -
Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »Honestly, I think this just perpetuates the problem. If more venos, collectively, stood up and said "I don't HAVE to have a herc!", we wouldn't have these issues. All the lazy or fail squads looking for an easy way out, all the barbs who can't or won't deal with class responsibilities*, would leave them at a disadvantage, which means they'd either have to step up and suck it up, or step off.
*And back around my 70's, I ran into a big problem, being constantly broke and unable to afford repairs. Had to say no to a few TT and FB runs, simply because I couldn't afford to take any more damage. Y'know what I did? I spent a weekend or two on Nightscream grinding, eventually got myself out of the hole, and even managed to buy my TT80 gear. A little effort goes a long way.
Why is confronting and accepting my responsibility as a Veno to add as much utility to my job as possible something that should be steered away from? You said yourself you took it upon yourself to spend a few days in nightscream to have the money you need to do the responsibilities that come with your job. Suppose you chose to just ignore that aspect, would you be more or less useful to a group with broken armor? Every Veno has the option to play however they like, but if they chose not to save up to get the most out of their job, then they cant expect the world to lower their standards to their level. Some Veno like to play without a Herc, and dont get bent out of shape when they're turned down for a group because of it, its their choice, and kudos to them. But if you chose not to get the best pets for the roles people desire them to fill, then they cant complain that others should take them along anyway. The very reason the devs designed the Venomancer job with MP/HP recycling on top of their low repairs, was because they have a high cost in pets, beyond just food and skills. All the money you put towards endless charms & repairs, was balanced to reflect a Venomancer needing to save up for their end game pets, it is part of Veno responsibilities as much as repairs is part of your responsibilities as a barb.0 -
Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »b:chuckle
All things are not equal, certainly not players' skills. Yes, I concede that the same veno swapping pets might do better with a herc, but there's already an ancient, rotting thread that beat that particular topic to death, and I don't want to see it resurrected.
Agreed. Making generalized statements is a flawed arguement. However, I've worked with Santacruz once or twice, and I can say quite certainly that she doesn't need a herc to completely kick ****.
b:victory
Honestly, I think this just perpetuates the problem. If more venos, collectively, stood up and said "I don't HAVE to have a herc!", we wouldn't have these issues. All the lazy or fail squads looking for an easy way out, all the barbs who can't or won't deal with class responsibilities*, would leave them at a disadvantage, which means they'd either have to step up and suck it up, or step off.
*And back around my 70's, I ran into a big problem, being constantly broke and unable to afford repairs. Had to say no to a few TT and FB runs, simply because I couldn't afford to take any more damage. Y'know what I did? I spent a weekend or two on Nightscream grinding, eventually got myself out of the hole, and even managed to buy my TT80 gear. A little effort goes a long way.
On HT, it's not easy to get a Barb all the time. I have problems getting barbs or BH runs, so in a pinch, BM or herc-veno are valued higher.
So what if I can get a non- herc veno? The pet cannot tank the bosses, so in the end, we still need to look for a barb / bm.
Your sweeping statements are based on having a good ratio of barbs on all timings and servers. But, the reality isn't that way on HT. So a Veno with a herc is much higher in value than one veno without the buddha.
The key differences would be what punishment the pet can take.0 -
Its people perception of Herc Veno's that is slightly off IMO.
People see a $200 pet and think it = Good player. From personal experience that is far from the truth in some cases.
Yes every class has its share of bad players, but it seems to be only Veno's that are judged " How good they are " by a class item.
Which seems pretty stupid to me.. Its like judging a BM's worth on wether or not he/she own GX's .
Having a Herc doesnt automatically make a Veno a good player and not having one doesnt make someone a bad player0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »...it is part of Veno responsibilities as much as repairs is part of your responsibilities as a barb.
I guess I just can't see it that way.
-Charms are useful, but optional
-Guardian scrolls are useful, but optional
-(insert cash shop item here) is useful but optional
-Herc/Phoenix = useful but optional
Venomancers are given the tame skill to nab a massive variety of pets in-game. Nowhere in-game is there a spawn for Herc or Nix, those come strictly from the boutique. I can't help but take issue with a mentality that sees real money (either through charged zen, or gold bought from AH) as a class requisite, and I certainly see no reason to hold it against a veno if they choose to ignore that aspect.Giodia wrote:On HT, it's not easy to get a Barb all the time. I have problems getting barbs or BH runs, so in a pinch, BM or herc-veno are valued higher.
So what if I can get a non- herc veno? The pet cannot tank the bosses, so in the end, we still need to look for a barb / bm.
Your sweeping statements are based on having a good ratio of barbs on all timings and servers. But, the reality isn't that way on HT. So a Veno with a herc is much higher in value than one veno.
The key differences would be what punishment can take.
Incorrect. My statements are based solely on player skill level. I know it's not easy to find a barb, I just think people should open their worldview a bit more. There was a thread here not too long ago about BMs being turned down for tanking, simply because they're not a barb. Now, they're not the best tank class either, but they can do it. For that matter, a skilled veno is capable of tanking, either in HA or foxform (or both together). I won't claim it's the ideal solution, simply that it's narrow-minded to rule out other options.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »This is where your argument fails. You have absolutely no basis in fact to say that because you dont have a herc, that you are more skilled.
i never once said that
i said that a lot of the herc'ed veno's are unskilled and a small majority are skilled, same goes for un herc'ed venos.
my point that i was trying to say is regardless of skill level, herc'ed veno always puts un herc'ed veno in the shadows.
imo it should work like this
best type of veno / usability bar
^
| Herc'ed and high skilled veno
| Un-herc'ed high skilled veno
| Herc'ed and low skilled veno
| Un-herc'ed low skilled veno
but it dosentShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »Its people perception of Herc Veno's that is slightly off IMO.
People see a $200 pet and think it = Good player. From personal experience that is far from the truth in some cases.
Yes every class has its share of bad players, but it seems to be only Veno's that are judged " How good they are " by a class item.
Which seems pretty stupid to me.. Its like judging a BM's worth on wether or not he/she own GX's .
Having a Herc doesnt automatically make a Veno a good player and not having one doesnt make someone a bad player
^ truth
SKILL > POSSESSIONS
this is what people don't seem to understand, usually they see it the other way around, this generation is built on such a materialistic view =<0 -
Hey Giodia can you go on your main? Just so I know who to gank b:laugh0
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Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »I guess I just can't see it that way.
-Charms are useful, but optional
-Guardian scrolls are useful, but optional
-(insert cash shop item here) is useful but optional
-Herc/Phoenix = useful but optional
I think part of your perception comes from the difference in pre-90 game vs. post 90 game. 90+ The game kicks it up a few notches, and the players need to up their gear a few notches to compensate. TT90 includes oodles of HP for a reason. Herc/(Nix for PvP) is the kick up a notch compensation for Veno Pets. When your Cleric is slept by a TT3-2/3 boss as a Barb you NEED a charm. DD classes can get 2-shot by some AoEs in FB99s if they dont have a charm as they cant always rely on the cleric to heal em as they are keeping that Barb alive. The PWE marketers arent stupid, they're pushing everyone up to end game where the "optional/luxury" items such as Charms, GA/Ss, & Legendary pets become alot more necessary. I knew it was becoming necessary to get a herc when i had to try pulling Wurlord in 2-3 with several pet rezzes, because he 1-shotted my pet on approach before the lure attack. And he's a very early mild mild example of what i'm talking about (in retrospect i hadnt started using a cactus lure yet and that would have worked, but later pulls the feild of mobs goes alot deeper and cactus wont always be capable). A Golem would get non-stop 1-shot by AoE against the Polearm or headless bosses in FB99 abaddon, or Snake in FB99 Seat of Torment. Dont even wanna talk about how many times Herc comes close to death or dies if i dont look when NOT tanking Emperor in 3-3. I know it might seem "high and mighty" to say this, but at 88, you havent seen it yet. FB89 is so easy compared to what comes later in game.0 -
Why would you go frost with a Un-herced veno O_O
The run goes so much faster if the herc tank bosses. You only use barb to tank armor break boss + lure mobs + buff hp. Actually you dont really need a barb in the first place if you have a BM with nice hp.
But really why would you wanna go with a veno that cant tank anything but a few mobs. Than you're better of picking another bm/wiz/archer instead with a zeal genie lol.
And most skilled venos does have herc, a skilled veno knows how to make enough money to get one or they have the brain to save up for one before 90+.0 -
Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »Than you're better of picking another bm/wiz/archer instead with a zeal genie lol.
Why do you want to lure in FF anyway ? It's aoe paradise lures are left at the door.0 -
frodobagels2 wrote: »Hey Giodia can you go on your main? Just so I know who to gank b:laugh
Again... another noob that thinks he can ganks me when I do not pvp at all on a PVE server.Kephras - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Incorrect. My statements are based solely on player skill level. I know it's not easy to find a barb, I just think people should open their worldview a bit more. There was a thread here not too long ago about BMs being turned down for tanking, simply because they're not a barb. Now, they're not the best tank class either, but they can do it. For that matter, a skilled veno is capable of tanking, either in HA or foxform (or both together). I won't claim it's the ideal solution, simply that it's narrow-minded to rule out other options.
Usually venos are robe based, And they have mags or glacial walkers. I have yet to meet other LA veno for that matter, let alone HA Venos (much more rare than barbs and clerics combined).
These are rare. Even in fox form, robes will not tank any better due to low pdef and that's how most of them is stated.
So robe venos without herc, it's truly handicap at tanking bosses.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think part of your perception comes from the difference in pre-90 game vs. post 90 game. 90+ The game kicks it up a few notches, and the players need to up their gear a few notches to compensate. TT90 includes oodles of HP for a reason. Herc/(Nix for PvP) is the kick up a notch compensation for Veno Pets. When your Cleric is slept by a TT3-2/3 boss as a Barb you NEED a charm. DD classes can get 2-shot by some AoEs in FB99s if they dont have a charm as they cant always rely on the cleric to heal em as they are keeping that Barb alive. The PWE marketers arent stupid, they're pushing everyone up to end game where the "optional/luxury" items such as Charms, GA/Ss, & Legendary pets become alot more necessary. I knew it was becoming necessary to get a herc when i had to try pulling Wurlord in 2-3 with several pet rezzes, because he 1-shotted my pet on approach before the lure attack. And he's a very early mild mild example of what i'm talking about (in retrospect i hadnt started using a cactus lure yet and that would have worked, but later pulls the feild of mobs goes alot deeper and cactus wont always be capable). A Golem would get non-stop 1-shot by AoE against the Polearm or headless bosses in FB99 abaddon, or Snake in FB99 Seat of Torment. Dont even wanna talk about how many times Herc comes close to death or dies if i dont look when NOT tanking Emperor in 3-3. I know it might seem "high and mighty" to say this, but at 88, you havent seen it yet. FB89 is so easy compared to what comes later in game.
Yes a rock may get 1 shot during some of those pulls but there's a reason most tameable pets at higher levels are fast. I've pulled Nob and Pole using a Tabby (a relatively squishy pet) and it could easily handle the job without dying. Pulling is not a herc's strong suit even if it does have the needed speed; it's usually a far from ideal for the job. Also, a lot of venos with herc seem to forget about reflect with usually disastrous results...
Let's just say pulling is not an argument for using an herc.
Herc is a tanking pet. If you want a DD, multielemental bash scorp is usually considered the best pick. And really if a pet dies on you for not paying attention you're not really bringing your A game to the table, that's no serious argument either...
Edit; And Giodia, i'm not sure what your veno's level is but at the 5x range you shouldn't see much in the way of LA or HA venos. They simply are unefficient to level at those ranges. Most AA high level venos are extremely PvE focused, and the changeover to HA is usually done at 7x at the earliest, 8x or even 9x being more common. Robe venos are the best at tanking bosses regardless of pet. Most high level bosses can either only be done with an herc or not... and sometimes non AA venos lack healing power to handle the job even with an herc.0 -
Veno's are really only needed for 1. Bramble, and 2. Dmg Amp,
Hercs are nice since it gives barbs a break, but i agree no need for em, easy enough to manage without em0 -
ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »Why do you want to lure in FF anyway ? It's aoe paradise lures are left at the door.
Last boss you kinda need to lure since its 2 of them. I guess some ppl might wanna lure bishops since they hurt and seal and stuff. But can just as well use a pro Bm to rush and stun the bishops. Besides that not really many places you wanna lure in Frost i guess lol. Not really any use for venos there at all tbh, unless it a veno with a herc that can tank. Which is why people ask for veno + herc for FF.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Yes a rock may get 1 shot during some of those pulls but there's a reason most tameable pets at higher levels are fast. I've pulled Nob and Pole using a Tabby (a relatively squishy pet) and it could easily handle the job without dying. Pulling is not a herc's strong suit even if it does have the needed speed; it's usually a far from ideal for the job. Also, a lot of venos with herc seem to forget about reflect with usually disastrous results...
Let's just say pulling is not an argument for using an herc.
Herc is a tanking pet. If you want a DD multielemental bash scorp is usually considered the best pick. And really if a pet dies on you for not paying attention you're not really bringing your A game to the table, that's no serious argument either...
Sorry but this shows you simply havent been in the 90+ content at all. When a lure of a boss involves it passing thru 8 mobs all shooting magic before the pet can get its lure attack off, you need a herc. No other pet will survive the trip. This is mostly the case in the FB99s. Without herc you'd need to remove the adds 1 at a time, slowing down the progress of the group, hence herc lure = efficiency. Its not about the speed, it's about survival of the pet before hitting. That not even an issue in FB69 nob & pole. Also as to forgetting reflect with disasterous resuslts, thats just being a fail veno.
Secondly you havent had a boss take off half your Hercs HP in just non-tanking AoE such as Emperor in 3-3 or again FB99 bosses. So yes, it is a case of not paying attention, but not for a long time like you make it sound. The AoE will 1-shot the golems and definately any pet with lesser defense. At that point there's no point in having a pet out as you'd spend all your time rezzing it. Again more efficient to have a herc dealing damage that lives with occassional heal while you also can spend most of your time DPSing/cursing/etc.
Dont use pre 90/95'ish game examples and experience to define endgame please.0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sorry but this shows you simply havent been in the 90+ content at all. When a lure of a boss involves it passing thru 8 mobs all shooting magic before the pet can get its lure attack off, you need a herc. No other pet will survive the trip. This is mostly the case in the FB99s. Without herc you'd need to remove the adds 1 at a time, slowing down the progress of the group, hence herc lure = efficiency.
Secondly you havent had a boss take off half your Hercs HP in just non-tanking AoE such as Emperor in 3-3 or again FB99 bosses. So yes, it is a case of not paying attention, but not for a long time like you make it sound. The AoE will 1-shot the golems and definately any pet with lesser defense. At that point there's no point in having a pet out as you'd spend all your time rezzing it. Again more efficient to have a herc dealing damage that lives with occassional heal while you also can spend most of your time DPSing/cursing/etc.
Dont use pre 90/95'ish game examples and experience to define endgame please.
By the same token i'll ask you not to use pre9x examples as well. Your credibility really took a big shot when you proved yourself wrong discussing bosses within my experience. Why would i take your word over that of high level venos whose arguments have proven sound on those areas of the game that are familiar to me? The thread is about Frost at any rate...0 -
Always had a veno in my FC squads, but I don't see any reason a Zeal wouldn't work.Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »Last boss you kinda need to lure since its 2 of them.
BM bum rush works much better. The foxes around the bishops aren't a real threat to any class, not even a squishy archer like me. Stunlocking and killing the bishop ASAP is the first priority.Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »I guess some ppl might wanna lure bishops since they hurt and seal and stuff. But can just as well use a pro Bm to rush and stun the bishops.
A herc really isn't necessary, though it is nice in that it can make things smoother and quicker. It's a good DD on [?] bosses, takes some of the load off the barb, and generally acts as a 7th man.
As for venos in general, I believe they make better DDs on the bosses than most other classes. Being able to pass chi to whoever needs it is also quite helpful. A veno pet makes an extra target for, say, Diabolic Shocktrooper's bubble-o-doom, thereby making it less likely that important squad members get hit by it. And of course there's bramble and amp. I can't think of anything else a veno can do that other classes can't at the moment, but that ought to be plenty.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »By the same token i'll ask you not to use pre9x examples as well. Your credibility really took a big shot when you proved yourself wrong discussing bosses within my experience. Why would i take your word over that of high level venos whose arguments have proven sound on those areas of the game that are familiar to me? The thread is about Frost at any rate...
I said Pole in FB99, reread my post. 69 isnt the only Polearm boss. I didnt use the example you thought i used, nor did i prove myself wrong. I said FB99 Pole's AoE would 1 shot golem, not 69.0 -
While it is true that venos without herc more then suffice if they know what they are doing, very few of them seem to actually be able to keep there pet alive, long enough to tank some of the bosses in the instance, though yes the squad plays a factor in the veno's role... (sorta) to take down the boss fast enough, so veno doesn't make that mistake that causes his or her pet to die.
Also a herc makes it even more easier for the squad to go 'full' out and have less of a worry of taking aggro from it.
It's not just the veno's fault that a squad fails without a herc, it is a WE kind of thing, we all play a role, obviously the faster the bosses go down, the easier it is on us all.
One more thing, while it is true its ultimately safer to go with a barb, then a herc/veno (who can tank) it is also not the best place for a barb to go it is normally a HUGE waste of cash for repair.
In just about every other instance there is some sort of income that lessens the blow to the barbs wallet. (Though some would argue that the barb doesn't get the 'best' drops, they do at least get some.) There really isn't anything like this in the ff instance. YES, there is the chance of getting a item to drop from certain bosses, the chances of one dropping is pretty rare, and even rarer still for it to go to the barb. I do realize there is the prize for 85+ at the end of the run (it can be a pretty crappy worthless item), and the shards after the boss, though again, how often does it actually go to the barb?
Really in my honest opinion, I can't blame barbs for not wanting to tank this instance, I really prefer to have them to pull, and let a veno... who CAN tank it, tank it, that way there is far less chances of a "QQ" my repair bill is outrageous I 'want' that shard, or item drop. I do realize there is a boss in there that no veno could tank, but one repair bill from a boss, and the pulls is NOTHING compared to tanking all the bosses.)
Just my two centsAh, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »I said Pole in FB99, reread my post. 69 isnt the only Polearm boss. I didnt use the example you thought i used, nor did i prove myself wrong. I said FB99 Pole's AoE would 1 shot golem, not 69.
As painful as it is i'll admit my mistake. I stand corrected. b:angry0 -
I'd like to say about something else than OP, but it's still about FF squads I had chance to met in last few days. Maybe it's my bad luck, but they all seems to have no idea who is capable to run FC. Don't let my forum avatar or post count trick you - I'm with PWI 11 months now, on this char about 7, but I had huge break from leveling, about 4 months. I was in my first FC when I was lvl 75, before PWI anniversary. Those days no one had problem with taking my level BM to the squad, but now many 85-95 think that I won't be able to stay alive inside. I got TT80 green set +2, 5.7k hp without buffs, in other words: more hp, better gear than I had on lvl 75, experience in running FC and still, they think I won't be able to contribute.
/QQend
Sorry, I had to do that, it just makes me really angry that ppl, who were getting their first fb19 when I was learning how to run FC, now are trying to tell me I'm too weak for that. It's just ridiculous to me. I mean... Really, only 85+ squad can run FC? And yes, I know that some ppl want to run it as fast as possible, but it seems like no one my level is doing FC. Or, like I said earlier, I'm unlucky with squads. It's 2x event, and it's good opportunity to jump in, I don't want to waste it.0
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