Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)
Comments
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Okay, I'll oblige with my own little arguement since you asked so nicely. ^-^
Where the hell is your heaven experience. If you raise an archer to 89, go Heaven, find every possible way to combo/utilize your skills and still think it fails, then I'll listen.
But until then you can crunch your numbers, and I'll wait for a heaven archer to reroll. I doubt it, to be honest. Because heaven can hurt like hell in PvP, in both meanings of the word.
EDIT: Wait, I forgot to add something.
If they don't stfu or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.
Your point of view is not end-all, you biased Demon archer.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »Okay, I'll oblige with my own little arguement since you asked so nicely. ^-^
Where the hell is your heaven experience. If you raise an archer to 89, go Heaven, find every possible way to combo/utilize your skills and still think it fails, then I'll listen.
But until then you can crunch your numbers, and I'll wait for a heaven archer to reroll. I doubt it, to be honest. Because heaven can hurt like hell in PvP, in both meanings of the word.
EDIT: Wait, I forgot to add something.
If they don't stfu or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.
Your point of view is not end-all, you biased Demon archer.
Hi.
No I have never leveled my own heaven archer to 89 so I guess you could say it's all speculation.
My 'guide' is obviously biased and I wrote it to be so. I never wanted it to be a guide, I wanted it to be an opener for debate. My opinion on a heaven archer is all, well, my opinion. I heavily favour hell so that heaven archers can hopefully provide a just as biased opinion they have. People will read two contrasting sides and I think that makes it much easier than me being all fair and complacent and arguing heaven's side along with hell's. It's tough love but as you can see it brings out good arguments from sage and hell archers alike ^^.
I think the posts from heaven archers I know provide enough proof to support my speculation though. Find every post by TigerLily in this thread. ._.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Hi.
No I have never leveled my own heaven archer to 89 so I guess you could say it's all speculation.
My 'guide' is obviously biased and I wrote it to be so. I never wanted it to be a guide, I wanted it to be an opener for debate. My opinion on a heaven archer is all, well, my opinion. I heavily favour hell so that heaven archers can hopefully provide a just as biased opinion they have. People will read two contrasting sides and I think that makes it much easier than me being all fair and complacent and arguing heaven's side along with hell's. It's tough love but as you can see it brings out good arguments from sage and hell archers alike ^^.
I think the posts from heaven archers I know provide enough proof to support my speculation though. Find every post by TigerLily in this thread. ._.
Fair enough. x3
"I see where you are coming from. My guide is obviously incomplete and I just added that part first. I'll focus on PvE stuff too and I'll be sure to label the current part as Heaven vs Hell for PVP when I organize everything."
I think that's from page 4 or 5.
But I'm loving this debate, to be honest. It's a guide in itself and I'd love to see it continue.
Waiting for more rantage. b:beg[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
Well you can argue till the sun comes up about the heaven/hell thing. It all comes down to what people want to play. This is a role playing game. Both sides have pluses, so it's about playstyle. I prefer demon archer, that's what I make my archers. So, basically I am agreeing with you about demon being better for most things. Archer is a damage dealing spike-damage class, demon takes the most advantage of that.
Reason why I trolled your thread is because of water helm. That helm is not fail at all, it gives over 200 more hp than lion helm refined. Yeah it's not good to use early, but that helmet is better than lion helmet end game. So calling it Helm of Archer Terribleness just reeked of nub.0 -
Lion helm isn't an endgame helm and neither is aqua vicious imo. Lion helm is great for the stats and it should be used as long as possible. I probably should change a bit about the 69 helm because it isn't as bad as I said at 90ish+
This was referring to when no body was 9x and I saw 7x's running around with it and a ly. I still don't think it's very good for archers (atleast pure dex ones) because it's too much strength for little reward. 5 vit and a bit more with refines to me isn't better than the 8 dex and a little bit less hp. It's obviously preference and at 97 isn't a big deal for me to say 'archer terribleness' but I mean that for 7x's and 8x's rocking that helm.
In my opinion the only 2 helm's I would ever add str for are the warsoul helm and the cv light helm (115str but +13 stats and grade 13 iirc)0 -
i just love the frustrated tone of the original poster, lol
<- murderous archer, goin sage, has enuf str to make u cry. U HATE IT ROFL
cuz its the funnest multiclass murderer ive ever made, i am a brutal like 15 to 1 KDR in TW, and I don't have to aim for wizards. Anyone ever wanna think outSIDE the box, do the opposite of this goober and create a unique monstrosity. GG you silly purebred monkey.0 -
Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear wrote: »i just love the frustrated tone of the original poster, lol
<- murderous archer, goin sage, has enuf str to make u cry. U HATE IT ROFL
cuz its the funnest multiclass murderer ive ever made, i am a brutal like 15 to 1 KDR in TW, and I don't have to aim for wizards. Anyone ever wanna think outSIDE the box, do the opposite of this goober and create a unique monstrosity. GG you silly purebred monkey.
Can you stop reinforcing my points that archers are bad? I would like a challenge ffs this is too easy. Go troll the cash shop huddle or something.0 -
If you are lvl 80-90 with a Auquavicious you are trading AT LEAST 19 DEX for perhaps 110 HP depending on how far you refine it.
Helm of Aqua failness? Too kind a nickname.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Can you stop reinforcing my points that archers are bad? I would like a challenge ffs this is too easy. Go troll the cash shop huddle or something.
Okay, here's your challenge: Rant moar. I think in the last 215-some replies, we pretty much exhausted the debate over your initial post, and it's time for some more. Mebbeh you'll make 500 posts.
And there'd be debate. Oooh yes.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
Helm of Aqua only becomes a viable choice if you go with the hh90 gold bracers, which will put you over the 94 str required to equip your 90 gear. Otherwise adding 11 extra str to wear a helmet that gives you LESS stats and a tiny bit more hp is completely re.tarded. Even if you refined both helmets to +12 the lion spirit would allow for more HP by placing those 11 stats into vit(PLUS the extra stats from the helmet itself).
As for those of you QQing about sage or demon, it's all preference. Regardless of which path you go, I will still roll you all. I picked sage just to put all you "GODLY" demon archers to shame.0 -
Escobar - Harshlands wrote: »Helm of Aqua only becomes a viable choice if you go with the hh90 gold bracers, which will put you over the 94 str required to equip your 90 gear. Otherwise adding 11 extra str to wear a helmet that gives you LESS stats and a tiny bit more hp is completely re.tarded. Even if you refined both helmets to +12 the lion spirit would allow for more HP by placing those 11 stats into vit(PLUS the extra stats from the helmet itself).
As for those of you QQing about sage or demon, it's all preference. Regardless of which path you go, I will still roll you all. I picked sage just to put all you "GODLY" demon archers to shame.
I heard 90% of archers on harshlands are sage. I didn't even know 10 people still play that server. b:bye0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »I heard 90% of archers on harshlands are sage. I didn't even know 10 people still play that server. b:bye
QQ Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1b:cry[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Hey Devoted,
I personally partially disagree with your opinion on frost arrow. Even though it is a lame skill the 5 seconds slowdown is very useful. Especially versing Bars and BMs higher levels than you, it comes in very handy when kiting. Another point is with fury, not sure what people do here, but when someone activates fury in pvp in my old server, people stun them or just run away. The only class that suffer from fury is Ven and Cler (C should have already use sleep, so cant use again). Wiz can just teleport away and seal you when near. BM just run off/teleport. Bar and archer just run.
I would also like to point out heaven's stun arrow is very very useful, you can almost chain stun if combined with aim low. Frost Arrow makes them get to you slower, then once cooldown finished just keep stunning, they wont hit you once. Yes, hell can do that too, but not as effective as heaven archers.
Hell has some flaws as well, after using sharptooth, it'll be most likely that you will be hitting them with normal hits after that. But whenever someone stun you, or you run off kiting you prob break the combo. Not that much of a problem but when against BM and Bar they pose a threat as BM can sprint and stun and Bar runs faster than you, so you better off using skills.
IMO, I think both have their pros but heaven has a slight higher survivability in pvps because of stun runs
some Heaven pros:
stun arrow
sharptooth
slightly more atk
some Hell pros:
wings of prot
wing span
sharptooth
serrated arrow
Hell has more better skills over Heaven, but they wont all be used in a fight. So having them in your arsenal is good but I see no point if they aren't used.
(this is from experience vsing archers from a BM and Wiz perspective, also on another pw server, feel free to correct me)0 -
I thought +str gear had no other point but lettinng you restat to dex?Helm of Aqua only becomes a viable choice if you go with the hh90 gold bracers, which will put you over the 94 str required to equip your 90 gear.
Having a str bonus still doesn't justify wearing that, in my opinion your green str amount should still be (your level)+4.0 -
You cant use the STR from something to equip it. Therefor if you are level 90 and a piece of your 90 equipment gives 7 STR than the lowest amount of STR that you can have is 101.0
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Wyiana - Heavens Tear wrote: »I thought +str gear had no other point but lettinng you restat to dex?
Having a str bonus still doesn't justify wearing that, in my opinion your green str amount should still be (your level)+4.
Thats correct. If you want to be pure pure you want to put every possible point to dex to maximize attack, which includes using the points from str on other equipment to put to dex.
What I'm saying is at level 95+ water helm is not a bad helm, it gives considerable more hp than lion helm. Different strokes different folks. I don't mind sacrificing 6-8 dex for a good bit more hp. 6-8 dex is not as noticeable to me as an advantage as the hp from water helm. If you are trying to squeeze every point of dex possible, then, yes, lion helm is obviously better.0 -
Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »wrong
10 chars
Actually, s/he is right. Assuming you're 90, and you have a piece of level 90 LA (that added +7 str), you'd need 94 str to equip it in the first place. If you were to restat your str to 87, then you wouldn't be able to equip the gear in the first place and so the str bonus it grants wouldn't apply.
Now if it were, say, an equip that DOESN'T need >=87 str to use (necklaces, belts, rings, and capes) then you could use the +str it provided as +dex and restat so your total str would still be your level +4.0 -
Actually, s/he is right. Assuming you're 90, and you have a piece of level 90 LA (that added +7 str), you'd need 94 str to equip it in the first place. If you were to restat your str to 87, then you wouldn't be able to equip the gear in the first place and so the str bonus it grants wouldn't apply.
Now if it were, say, an equip that DOESN'T need >=87 str to use (necklaces, belts, rings, and capes) then you could use the +str it provided as +dex and restat so your total str would still be your level +4.
No shes not right there are other pieces of gear with STR on it most notably sky demon pearl.0 -
Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »wrong
10 chars
certainly we agree you must have just misunderstood me.
if you have 94 STR and you equip something that requires 94 STR and also gies you 7 str than you will have 101 STR and be unable to have any lower and still equip that piece of equipment.0 -
certainly we agree you must have just misunderstood me.
if you have 94 STR and you equip something that requires 94 STR and also gies you 7 str than you will have 101 STR and be unable to have any lower and still equip that piece of equipment.
wrong...you can restat....fk it i'm done with this thread.0 -
Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »wrong...you can restat....fk it i'm done with this thread.
You cant really. If minimum str required for gear is 94 and this gear gives you 7 str you cant restat it.I kill things b:victory0 -
how do you restat and still be able to equip it? i have spent alot on reset scrolls and have not found a way to beat the system. Are you sure you are understanding what is being said?0
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use temporarily str bonus rings/belt/gear when restatting0
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Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »wrong...you can restat....fk it i'm done with this thread.Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »use temporarily str bonus rings/belt/gear when restatting
Kay. Lemme simplify this since you folks don't get it.
You have 94 TOTAL str and want to equip an item ith a req of 94 str.
Said item you want to equip gives a bonus of str +7
You equip the item and now have 101 TOTAL str.
You restat.
You no longer have the required 94 TOTAL str to equip the item with that requirement.
The item you wanted to equip no longer works and all bonuses on it become null because you cannot equip it to begin with.
You find yourself raising your str back to 94 so you can equip the original item once more.
Now that you have 94 str, you are able to equip the item and gain the +7 str bonus once again, keeping the minimum str you can have with that item equipped at 101.
It was already tested and proven in some veno thread I can't be arsed to look for again that you can't do what you guys are trying to say. Plus, in my post I specifically mentioned what you COULD get away with using the str boosts from in a restat.
Think of it this way: If your armor requires 100 str and has a str +5 boost, can you equip it when you only have 95 str total without it on? The obvious answer would be NO. Same thing applies here, if you can't equip it in the first place, you can't use the bonus from it.
Did you really read my post? Sky Demon's Pearl is a necklace, so you can restat the str it gives into dex. Now try that with... say... http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/15994 Result? If you go below 99 dex WITHOUT the armor equipped (which you would if you tried to restat the str it gives into dex) then you won't be able to equip the armor in the first place. There is no way to have this armor in use while keeping a total str of 99. Period.Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »No shes not right there are other pieces of gear with STR on it most notably sky demon pearl.0 -
what if you start with 87 str
-equip ring with +7 str -> 94 str
-equip 94 str piece with +7 str
-remove ring
does this work?0 -
Unfortunately, no.0
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doesn't the reset note tell you to unequip all of your gear before restatting? b:surrender0
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But if you have say 94 str and get a belt that gives +7 str and you restat to 87 str and you equip the belt you will be able to equip other peices of armor that require 94 str.The only way to win is to quit. b:bye0
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DarkSniper - Lost City wrote: »But if you have say 94 str and get a belt that gives +7 str and you restat to 87 str and you equip the belt you will be able to equip other peices of armor that require 94 str.
If you have 94 str with your gear on (remember, we aren't talking base stats while not wearing anything) and you have a level 90 LA with a +7 boost to str, you CAN'T restat your dex to 87 and still use it to have enough str for the armor itself.
If the +str came from your rings, necklace, belt, cape, or even weapon (bows have a lower str req than LA), then sure you can restat and use that +str as +dex IF you keep whatever gave you the bonus str on after the restat.
If the +str comes from your armor, though, then it's impossible to have below your level+4+bous str from armor as a total str, because if you restat and try to lower your str to take advantage of the armor, you won't have enough str to use the armor in the first plae = no bonus str for you to take advantage of.0
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