Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

lol this is more a rant than a guide..

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

No, I do get it. Keep trying to justify heaven because your normal attacks do 10% more fire damage.

Some skill attacks also get your fire damage boost (I have not tested this exhaustively but I suspect all skills from your left hand tree benefit, or maybe it was all skills which do physical damage...?).

But I have seen some skills benefit from blazing arrow so I know we should not trust your generalizations.

Also, you have no experience with even any of the skills you are ranting about -- you need another six levels before you can get your level 99 demon skills -- which means you have been trusting incomplete (and inaccurate) information sources.

I started writing up a big huge rant about how you were wrong in areas where I do have some experience, but... I think I will hold onto some of my "secrets" for now.

Meanwhile:

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

It is? I'm not too sure as why a paralyze skill would have the bonuses of stun or seal.

Because your paralyze does not always work?

missqq

lolz @ the ppl trying 2 argue with devoted

angellicdeity

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

IBlazing arrow only works for normal attacks.

Blazing arrow: Is applied to regular arrows - or, non-blue elite arrows.

The fire damage is still reflected in your skills - so as long as you use the arrows purchasable at your local NPC.

Goldian - Dreamweaver

With these genies you dont even need tobe hell or heaven to pown people these days <.<

XxRaynaHeart - Sanctuary

Hell archers are proven to pwn. Really, archers max in phys damage and going in mana based heaven is just plain failure.

Lunassis - Lost City

Nice guid, i agree, demon is the way to go for an archer pure dex who wanna do a real DD.
Cuz yes without crit archer sux, and thinkin an archer can be a tanker its simply stupid, unless u have a stuff +9 or abuse with apothecary pots.

Goldian - Dreamweaver

Guys after reading this guide carefully...


I'm going for a almostp ure vit build for high vit and im going to heaven.. im also considering getting str so i can wear heavy armor.. (easier to tank fbs for people)


Yea that must be it... i might also wear some axes.. i dont like long range!

Woot i found my call.. im going to own in pvp <.<




b:chuckle

Fleuri - Sanctuary

angellicdeity wrote: »

Blazing arrow: Is applied to regular arrows - or, non-blue elite arrows.

The fire damage is still reflected in your skills - so as long as you use the arrows purchasable at your local NPC.

I might be mistaken, but your claim does not match my experiences.

Goldian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Guys after reading this guide carefully...


I'm going for a almostp ure vit build for high vit and im going to heaven.. im also considering getting str so i can wear heavy armor.. (easier to tank fbs for people)


Yea that must be it... i might also wear some axes.. i dont like long range!

Woot i found my call.. im going to own in pvp <.<




b:chuckle

I know you are being silly, but your suggestion might work, once you got your sage melee skills. Sage winged shell and winged pledge with heavy armor and berserk axes might actually work? Most of your skills become useless, of course, and archers do not get much health from vitality so you would need to refine your gear. But you could swap in a level 1 slingshot or something (with elite shot for its channeling bonus, which you would not be wasting on non-skill attacks) for sharpened tooth arrow or aim low or whatever, and if you did not burning through mana charms like you were zhenning, you could almost spam winged pledge for a decent amount of damage. Your shell would go down with one magic attack, but you would still get sage stunning arrow and aim low, so you might do ok when facing only one caster.

Would you be great? I am not sure... with good enough gear you might do ok, but playing an axe sage would be extremely expensive. You might even consider restating between builds sometimes, so you can save money.

Chaotiic - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I might be mistaken, but your claim does not match my experiences.



I know you are being silly, but your suggestion might work, once you got your sage melee skills. Sage winged shell and winged pledge with heavy armor and berserk axes might actually work? Most of your skills become useless, of course, and archers do not get much health from vitality so you would need to refine your gear. But you could swap in a level 1 slingshot or something (with elite shot for its channeling bonus, which you would not be wasting on non-skill attacks) for sharpened tooth arrow or aim low or whatever, and if you did not burning through mana charms like you were zhenning, you could almost spam winged pledge for a decent amount of damage. Your shell would go down with one magic attack, but you would still get sage stunning arrow and aim low, so you might do ok when facing only one caster.

Would you be great? I am not sure... with good enough gear you might do ok, but playing an axe sage would be extremely expensive. You might even consider restating between builds sometimes, so you can save money.

Hmmm.... I thought ur arguments were dubious at times but when u agreed that this was a realistic build all ur credibility went out the window. All that devoted has said about hell/heaven skills was backed up by many archers who do hae experience with the skills namely tigerlily and I.

FYI
~1000 or 1250 is still 1 hit from a magic class
~Blazing arrow only effects regular shots ie. auto-attacking NO SKILLs. Want proof? go to a lvl 1 TW or fb99 hell and attack a physical immune boss u do about 300 damage auto-attacking and resist with skills. Blazing arrow 50%/60% is not much damage at all especially considering i hit bosses 4k+ yet the blazing damage is only 300 (i have hell blazing) you do the math and tell me if that is worth considering when debating culti choice?
~You spam thundershock enough that u wont notice whether it last 15 secs or 25 secs i dont know a single archer who has said to themselves "oh shiit if only my metal debuff had lasted an extra 10 secs" cos itdoesnt happen. Whereas a paralyze however infrequent would be very useful.
~lvl 100 hell archer here b:bye Hel zhen>>heaven zhen. Even in TW if i use a stun pot then zhen the minute u open zhen ur a big glaring target and the 33% reduction will not insure u survive being focus fired by an entire guild however that -interval means i dish out a lot more damage before i am noticed then focused down by the enemy. However this is one of the few skills u listed where it is actually fairly balanced and the difference is style of play.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

Hmmm.... I thought ur arguments were dubious at times but when u agreed that this was a realistic build all ur credibility went out the window.

Well, first off, I am not really going for credibility. I just get OCD sometimes when people say stuff and I disagree with their reasoning.

And I do not know if an axe sage would work very well, but without first hand experience I can only say they would have some good things going for them if someone had enough money to make one. They would have some severe weaknesses and would burn through charms like crazy, but they might still work.

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

~1000 or 1250 is still 1 hit from a magic class

Yes, but no skill should be overpowering against all classes. And if you can keep from being one-hit, maybe you can land a stun?

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

~Blazing arrow only effects regular shots ie. auto-attacking NO SKILLs. Want proof? go to a lvl 1 TW or fb99 hell and attack a physical immune boss u do about 300 damage auto-attacking and resist with skills.

I am sorry, but all level 1 TWs have been eaten on sanctuary so I can not test there, and also I plan on going 89 sage well before I attempt fb99. But I am pretty sure I have seen increased damage on metal monsters when I was using serrated and vicious arrows. (And, yes, I am aware some people think they are silly skills which we should ignore. But, for example, if you use a crossbow and wear any channeling gear you should be using them instead of your normal attack whenever you can, unless you are really trying to conserve mana or unless you also have increased your attack interval. But for low level archers without incredible weapons, damage over time skills can be efficient, even when they do not tick much.)

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

Blazing arrow 50%/60% is not much damage at all especially considering i hit bosses 4k+ yet the blazing damage is only 300 (i have hell blazing) you do the math and tell me if that is worth considering when debating culti choice?

By itself, I would not consider blazing arrow a particularly overriding issue. But with 4k hits, +60 damage still comes out better than +1% crit in terms of average damage and of course in terms of peak critical hit damage. Higher crit chances with lower average damage does make you reliable, but you can not have everything.

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

~You spam thundershock enough that u wont notice whether it last 15 secs or 25 secs i dont know a single archer who has said to themselves "oh shiit if only my metal debuff had lasted an extra 10 secs" cos itdoesnt happen. Whereas a paralyze however infrequent would be very useful.

I will agree with you here, but if you kite or if you fight with friends, you might actually get some benefit from 25 seconds of debuff.

Osiris - Dreamweaver

Arravis - Lost City wrote: »

[]...You obviously don't know enough about the Barbarians hell skills. The Onslaught increases your crit by 35% OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. It is NOT a solid 35% increase.

If I have 10% crit and use onslaught, I now have 13 ~ 14% crit. It's not a complete 35% increase. b:bye

Just found this comment and wanted to make sure that demon Sharptooth and demon Stun work different.

The WBs demon Onslaught increases the crit rate of the barb by 35%, but according to Arravis comment it doesn't simply add 35% but increases the crit rate by 35% of the current crit value.

Now i want to know if demon sharptooth and stun simply add 10% for 15/10 seconds or do they increase your crit rate only by 10% of your base crit (mostly 3%))? Because if they only add 3% i will reconsider if i really wanna go demon.

Devoted - Lost City

Osiris - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just found this comment and wanted to make sure that demon Sharptooth and demon Stun work different.

The WBs demon Onslaught increases the crit rate of the barb by 35%, but according to Arravis comment it doesn't simply add 35% but increases the crit rate by 35% of the current crit value.

Now i want to know if demon sharptooth and stun simply add 10% for 15/10 seconds or do they increase your crit rate only by 10% of your base crit (mostly 3%))? Because if they only add 3% i will reconsider if i really wanna go demon.

This was the main factor I had on deciding between heaven and hell when I was 7x. I was told that it adds a solid +10 crit and im 98% sure it does add 10 crit but I'll let chaoticc reply though as he has the skill.

TigerLily - Lost City

Osiris - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just found this comment and wanted to make sure that demon Sharptooth and demon Stun work different.

The WBs demon Onslaught increases the crit rate of the barb by 35%, but according to Arravis comment it doesn't simply add 35% but increases the crit rate by 35% of the current crit value.

Now i want to know if demon sharptooth and stun simply add 10% for 15/10 seconds or do they increase your crit rate only by 10% of your base crit (mostly 3%))? Because if they only add 3% i will reconsider if i really wanna go demon.

Most people i asked said its based on your current crit, so 3% when skills are used since they don't stack. But than others (lika Chaotiic) claim its +10% crit. Maybe Gms now lol, i doubt it tho.

But if it really is +10% crit, that would mean lvl 100 8jun hell archer, pure dex build with all 99 skills and crit accessories, have like have like 50%+ crit. And quite frankly that sounds a little bit to good to be true. Its just to OP, hence i believe the crit is based on your own current base crit. I really think i need something more than "my friend sais" to confirm its 3% or 10% b:surrender.

Chaotiic - Lost City

Hmm.. Never tested it and its not easy to tell as the crit increase is not displayed on ur stat menu however a few things would lead me to believe it is a solid crit increase. Firstly 10% of ur current makes no sense lol the description is exactly the same as the passive skills for the increase this would mean passive skills give 1% increase of ur current crit as well which isnt true. Then there is also the time frame on the skill, stun increases crit by 10% for 10 seconds does it make any sense whatsoever to give 2.9% extra crit for ten secs? That is beyond useless.

All of the above is simply theory tho in practice I would have to say i notice a significant increase in my crits after using either skill then before. The frequency of critting take aim after using my stun or critting the stun itself (as the buff is applied before the shot hits the target) is really shocking and my pvp crits have definately increased since i got the skills even when using hp gear which puts me 3% crit lower then i had before had when pvping before i got the skills. Other people such as my friend Lyssic who has the heaven skill which increases his crit by 20% for 10 secs notices a large jump in crits after using it. He has a base crit of 13% and as such if it was 20% of his current crit an increase of 3% would hardly be noticeable yet he crits extremely frequently having used his skill. I think Arravis is incorrect in saying the wb skill doesnt give +35% crit as this wouldnt be that big of a deal considering sunder gives 100% crit for 5 secs why would the other hell wb skills give 5% of current or 35% of current which is an insignificant increase. However this is mostly guess work so until someone does xxxx number of trials with the skill we cant say for certain either way. BUT myself and many others believe it is +xx% not +xx% of ur current.

@Flueri

Blazing Arrow only effects normal shots i know i was in all the lvl 1TW and have done fb99 and i tested skills vs normal shots.
I agree with u about wing shield wat i meant was 1000(hell) or 1250(heaven) will still be broken in 1 shot so the difference is negligible
If u seriously think 50-60 damage in PVE is anything when archer damage in pve varies by as much as 2k u are not the brightest bulb
You cannot kill a heavy class with a heiro by kiting. I could be usefull when pking with a friend. However either way its not hardly as useful as paralysing someone every 10 shots.

Osiris - Dreamweaver

Hey guys, thx for all your replies. I think i'm gonna trust Chaotiics feeling because even if it only feels like an additional 10% its already worth it.
A GM clarification about this problem would be awsome though. b:avoid

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Well, personally, I have no experience with celestial stunning arrows, but I think adding a flat 10% critical hit chance would be balanced with adding an extra 1.5 seconds. On average, a 10% boost to your critical hit chance combined with a sequence of shots should be roughly comparable with an extra free shot. They will not be identical, of course -- your extra free shot might itself critical but your sequence of shots might critical multiple times (or might not), your opponent's skills and maybe charm will be cooling off during your extra free shot, but so would your own skills. And... so on... anyways, I am going to agree with other people here.

But, chaotic? Are you claiming your bonus from blazing arrow was constant when your damage varied by 2000 damage? Or are we doing some kind of thing where we compare numbers from two different situations?

Anyways, since I appear to be confusing people, (1) I do not think blazing arrow by itself matters very much for choosing between sage and demon -- it would be just one minor factor, and (2) in PvP I would be using winged shell primarily for fighting melee opponents -- this would be mostly be blademasters and barbarians and would hopefully mostly not be wizards. Wizards typically need stuns and interrupts, or maybe I will just run from them -- especially when they outnumber me.

Miyakoto - Heavens Tear

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Restat your int to 3 and if you are a high level and 1~2 dex away from another crit restat your vit.

Just a quick question if someone could clarify for me, the new restat scrolls seem to have a note on the bottom of it saying 'cannot restat below 5'. So we cant restat it to 3 =T.. though i wish i could.. dam int and vit. >.> 4 points of precious dex..b:cute

Rulin - Heavens Tear

OK, I read most of the posts on this thread,I'm still a noob but here goes my question:

How can you be so sure that the 10% increase in crits is on top of what ur stat screen says(talking about demon sharptooth)?? I strongly believe that it means a 10% of ur x% of crit. I think a gm needs to clarify this.

Also, why is it that devoted tends to depreciate the extra 15% of regular dmg from bow mastery? let's do simple math:

considering for simplicity 10 1k attacks and every crit an extra hit:
with 15% increase: 10*(1k +15%)= 11.5k + 3 possible crits extra dmg( let's say a nice geared archer with 30-33% crit) =14.95k

with the 10% crit on top (which I don't believe to be true): 10*(1k)= 10k + 4 crits extra dmge(considering 40-43% crit)=14k

where's the difference????

Please, Pleeeaaaaseee, prove me wrong. It would make me so happy to be proven that demon archers are as godly as everyone is making them look, this is the reason of my post, to have my doubts cleared.

Im a newb so please feel free to flame, It really won't matter to me.

PS: If i hade the extra sage chi, god wouldn't I spam sparks.....

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Rulin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How can you be so sure that the 10% increase in crits is ...

Also, why is it that devoted tends to depreciate the extra 15% of regular dmg from bow mastery?

Your bow mastery question and your critical chance question both depend on knowing Y in "X percent of Y".

For bow mastery, you get an extra percent of your weapon damage, not of your physical attack. I believe this means your bow mastery bonus ignores your dexterity and equipment (like your might rings) which increases your physical attack.

Allnighte - Lost City

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

~lvl 100 hell archer here b:bye Hel zhen>>heaven zhen. Even in TW if i use a stun pot then zhen the minute u open zhen ur a big glaring target and the 33% reduction will not insure u survive being focus fired by an entire guild however that -interval means i dish out a lot more damage before i am noticed then focused down by the enemy. However this is one of the few skills u listed where it is actually fairly balanced and the difference is style of play.

and now anyone can get Wind Shield genie skill to reduce damage by 30%, and you can spam it with a full bar of energy. and im pretty sure it doesn't stack with things like blue ball or the heaven zhen

archerbane

Hay. Im new around here and im still dowloading the game but ive played game before this and ive always been an archer i Love archers they are really cool to me, im gonna take ur advice when u say there terrible but i want to test the for mi self first to see if they submit to my likeings and expectations if they dont then i would like to know what u think is good and fits these expectations:
Fast hit rates:
Looks cool (lol):
Can Dual wield(doesnt matter wether its 2 weps or a wep and shield):
Is not hard to level(im a bit lazy lol):
Anything that fit those if i dont like the archer i will use based on ur opinion so hit me with what u got. b:dirtyArchersb:dirty

Annor - Heavens Tear

Have not been paying too much attention to this thread recently, so apologies if this is out of context or already covered.

My understanding of Bow Mastery / Blazing arrows is that they have an additive effect with dexterity, rather than a multiplicative. They act in the same role to benefit physical damage with equipment phys as a base. So yes, Mastery is not benefitted by dexterity, but rather could be seen as an extension of it.

in formulaic, I believe it goes:
(1+[dexterity/100]+[Blazing Arrow or Active Skill Multiplier]*+[Bow Mastery]*)x(Equipment Physical) + Any non% skill bonus

*percentages should be divided by 100 (i.e. 120% = 1.2)

As mentioned, blazing arrow does not effect skill damage. That formula should be correct for any ranged damage calculation (obviously factor in damage reduction by defenses)

orph1

Rulin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

OK, I read most of the posts on this thread,I'm still a noob but here goes my question:

How can you be so sure that the 10% increase in crits is on top of what ur stat screen says(talking about demon sharptooth)?? I strongly believe that it means a 10% of ur x% of crit. I think a gm needs to clarify this.

Also, why is it that devoted tends to depreciate the extra 15% of regular dmg from bow mastery? let's do simple math:

considering for simplicity 10 1k attacks and every crit an extra hit:
with 15% increase: 10*(1k +15%)= 11.5k + 3 possible crits extra dmg( let's say a nice geared archer with 30-33% crit) =14.95k

with the 10% crit on top (which I don't believe to be true): 10*(1k)= 10k + 4 crits extra dmge(considering 40-43% crit)=14k

where's the difference????

Please, Pleeeaaaaseee, prove me wrong. It would make me so happy to be proven that demon archers are as godly as everyone is making them look, this is the reason of my post, to have my doubts cleared.

Im a newb so please feel free to flame, It really won't matter to me.

PS: If i hade the extra sage chi, god wouldn't I spam sparks.....

Your math is honestly FAIL

you do not take into considartions bow mastery, blazing arrow buff, using take aim as opener for the extra 200% dmg heaven gets, the extra 21% crit that hell gets over heaven OR the 30% extra atk rate buff hell gets if the quickshot buff activates.

after you figure this all out feel free to come back

its honestly easy to see hell path has a much higher short term DPS number then the heaven path

Blazing arrow 70% extra damage for 20 seconds
Sharpened tooth arrow 10% extra crit for 15 seconds
Stunning arrow 10% extra crit for 10 seconds
Quick shot 50% chance for extra 30% atk rate for 6 seconds

problem is this isnt sustainable DPS there are ways to make this more sustainable with MP items and thats what makes demons really POP its people that DO have the cash to support mp charms

Annor - Heavens Tear

The math is wrong, but your critique leaves out the key 'wrongness'...
being that a 15% increase in weapon damage (as offered by sage bow mastery) does not mean a 15% increase in damage -- as can be seen in the formula I posted earlier.

-I don't think (m)any people use demon:Blazing Arrow for the 20 second effect
(again, remember a 70% increase in weapon damage is far from a 70% increase in total damage)

Rulin - Heavens Tear

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The math is wrong, but your critique leaves out the key 'wrongness'...
being that a 15% increase in weapon damage (as offered by sage bow mastery) does not mean a 15% increase in damage -- as can be seen in the formula I posted earlier.

-I don't think (m)any people use demon:Blazing Arrow for the 20 second effect
(again, remember a 70% increase in weapon damage is far from a 70% increase in total damage)

So what you're saying is that the %dmge bow mastery gives to the user is actually from the wep attack stat?

So the skill is not as great as it looks at a first glance.

what about the +10% in crit from the other hell skills? should that be considered on top of ur stat? From what i've been seen from other skills it doesn't look like that.

Rulin - Heavens Tear

orph1 wrote: »

Your math is honestly FAIL

you do not take into considartions bow mastery, blazing arrow buff, using take aim as opener for the extra 200% dmg heaven gets, the extra 21% crit that hell gets over heaven OR the 30% extra atk rate buff hell gets if the quickshot buff activates.

after you figure this all out feel free to come back

its honestly easy to see hell path has a much higher short term DPS number then the heaven path

Blazing arrow 70% extra damage for 20 seconds
Sharpened tooth arrow 10% extra crit for 15 seconds
Stunning arrow 10% extra crit for 10 seconds
Quick shot 50% chance for extra 30% atk rate for 6 seconds

problem is this isnt sustainable DPS there are ways to make this more sustainable with MP items and thats what makes demons really POP its people that DO have the cash to support mp charms

I did not take into account the bow mastery for hell's numbers for simplicity, I only added the extra 15% percent from heaven bow mastery (against hell's version). My intention was to compare the best hell argument vs the vest heaven argument.

I don't think using those skills in a normal attack calculation is fair cuz of the cost of sustaining them.

Annor - Heavens Tear

It's all in the formula, but yes, the percentage you get from bow mastery is thrown in with the percentage modifiers from everything else you already have.

For a quick simplistic example:
assuming a 4-1 build, at level 89 (gear stat modifiers excluded)...
archers have.. 357 dexterity
Demon / Sage Blazing arrow: 50% for demons, 60% for sages

now we'll put the 75% offered by demon bow mastery / blazing arrow against the 90% offered by sage...
Total modifier with demon: 1 + 3.57 + 0.5 + 0.75 = 5.82
Total modifier with sage: 1 + 3.57 + 0.6 + 0.9 = 6.07

So when taking the effect of attribute points into account Sage actually only offers ~4% more damage (from blazing arrow and bow mastery combined).
As I mentioned this is a simplistic analysis, +dexterity on equipment pieces makes this gap even smaller. The modifiers calculated above are the numbers your equipment damage is multiplied by to reach your total damage, the formula i posted earlier.
-I figured I might as well include D/S blazing arrow in the numbers as it's ranks are a lot easier to acquire than Bow Mastery.

I can't tell you whether the demon skills' 10% adds onto your crit or is a multiplier for your crit, I just don't know, most people say its additive. Crit that you have though, unlike %weapon damage, directly multiplies your total damage, so 5% critical really does = 5% more damage.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ICrit that you have though, unlike %weapon damage, directly multiplies your total damage, so 5% critical really does = 5% more damage.

I must disagree with you here: when a high level archers gain +5% on their critical hit chances, their average damage does NOT increase by 5%, because they would already have had a good critical hit chance.

First off, critical hits always double your damage. So you get +100% damage from critical hits, always.

But of course, you were speaking of average damage. But even here, for example, if you already had a 30% critical hit chance, and you got another +5% chance, your average damage would increase by (base * 1.35) / (base * 1.30) = 1.03846 or almost 4%.

Meanwhile, if you want your level 99 demon archer to be getting both of your 10% critical hit bonuses, you will be needing almost 5 seconds before you become fully buffed (and I believe some people can debuff you). Also, your level 99 buff lasts for 15 seconds with a 15 second skill cooldown and takes another 2.6 seconds chanelling and casting time where your level 92 buff lasts for 10 seconds with a 15 second cooldown and takes another 2.1 seconds. So you would get your full +20% level 90 critical hit buff only sometimes: (15 / (15+2.6)) * (10 / 15+2.1) = 0.498405.

If you compare equivalently equipped sage and demon archers (which probably would mean one of them had made bad gearing choices so we could easily compare them), and they had identical attributes and our sage archer had a 30% critical chance, our demon archer would have a base 32% critical chance and would have another +10% bonus 85% of the time and another +10% bonus 58% of the time. I think this would give our demon archer an effective +46% critical damage bonus (or less, if you did not have perfect timing). So, if I compare their average damage boost from criticals, I get about a 13% average damage increase for our demon archer. This beats our sage archer's 9%-ish damage increase from bow mastery and blazing arrow, but still ignores lots of other issues.

Of course, genies and apothecaries and debuffs and tactics and everything else make this complicated...

So... anyways... you do NOT get a flat 5% damage increase from a 5% critical chance increase.

Mosz - Heavens Tear

good math flueri
now let me add, roughly 50% more crit in demon version=well a crapload more wins in pvp, crits take away a lot from the benefit of hp charms