Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

wtf wizzeled restated his way to use calamities? think of the zerk crits! b:chuckle

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, just restat to HA. Last I saw he had 2 HA pieces so I wouldn't be surprised if he had enough str to use calamities b:chuckle

When I was shopping for a W&C, I specially got one of the ones that Wizzeled was selling at the time. Now I have "Manufactured by Wizzeled" Wind and the Clouds. Maybe some of his godliness will rub off on me now?

9/02/09jhgjhgjh

lmao... this one have reasons to tell that archers are weak^^

Wizzeled - Sanctuary wrote: »

English plz?

I know you. You spam Sanctuary all the time.

whats the difference ona haven archer non using skill and a demon archer that dont use skill?b:surrender

kalden wrote: »

I just came across this topic and I didnt read all the posts. I'll mention a bit about the Heaven Archer. Heaven Archer, usually pure dex, are surprising strong in pvp TW. They usually doesn't use skill to hit opponents in TW but rather they use normal attacks. Their equipments focus on attack speed which is common sense. A surprise attack from Heaven archers is something worth noting. So thats it. b:bye

I think you mixed up heaven and hell archers lol.
Heaven archer is the nuker/skill spammer and hell is interval/auto shoots/crits.

Heaven does not have any skills that adds faster attack or crits to boots auto attacks. Heaven is really more of a skill spammer, specially metal skills to take out BM/barbs, since they have endless chi.

Hell on the other hand has spark that adds faster attack, stun arrow and ST adds crits to normal shoots, and quick shoots adds attack speed.

All archers benefits from interval gear tho, both heaven and hell.

heaven archers need to drop dead in end game they're effectively useless compared to the hell alternative.

spike damage... that's what archers are about... apparently chi gaining skills in pwi are apparently so important that you would sacrifice the great effects on the hell skills...

archers are not dependant on chi, there are only one or two chi skills that would be considered valuable, the rest are normal skills and normal shots

and some of the hell skills have accuracy included...

in tw there are only a few skills that you would actually need to use, its a no-brainer archers aren't complicated and dont need fancy tactics...

u got a heavy, take him down with lightning attacks, robe use normal shots, that's it... the rest is up to your gear and build

Just wanted to say devoted is an idiot. Thanks drive through.

arr I seriously, SERIOUSLY hate it when I read all 21 pages of a thread that tells me that my decision to go heaven is wrong. I DIDNT GO SAGE YET LOL, since I just turned 89 and am still in serious doubt as to which one do I choose. Most ppl in faction tell me to go demon, but then most of those ppl aren't archers and I know a few archers myself who wish they chose sage.

For the benefit of all, I made a table with all skills and sage/demon bonuses that i myself use to quickly compare various things, and its here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArBzdo-PbDUxdFVJU0MwSmNrZVMtZTNDWHliZDFISVE&hl=en

Now regarding heaven choice - since I never PvP (yes i like being a blue carebearb:victory), my only PvP experience comes from TW(a lot of it).
I thought heaven was better because it is really really annoying to have to tap your aim low/BoA hotkey only to finally notice that u ran out of chi and swear endlessly while watching wizard zip away or a group of support clerics dispersing all around the catas. So 50 chi might help there.

Usually in Tw, I fight clerics/wizzies or cover anti-BM/DD squads. In any case, my 5 most popular skills are take aim, stun, BoA, sharp tooth and deadly shot.

The most important skill from heaven seems to me to be take aim - I hope that it will replace deadly shot as my robe finishing skill. Also, the stun's 4.5s are arguably quite a bit more important then ppl realize. Why? Because when killing cleric/wiz I usually follow a similar pattern(unless i know the target to have tons of hp or some weakness):

Stun->deadly->(sometimes tap take aim for a super fast normal dmg shot)->quickshot->retreat or normal attack if person not dead lol.


Admittedly, stun would help here in both hell and sage versions. However, the biggest issue with clerics is that they pop in plume shield as soon as their stun wears off, which happens about when deadly is done casting and away. If I were to cast take aim right after deadly, that would mean cleric has only 1.5s to get the plume shield up - it is plausible that due to lag or w/e, that wont happen. And since sage take aim is so powerful, there is a good chance to take cleric out right there, especially if its arcane build.

Now the counter argument is very good too. Admittedly, 10% crit is very very useful, since for me stun is almost always the opening move against robe users or anyone coming for me. People have done math for me before , so I wont start doing any again. It suffices to say that the 10% is marginally better than the 4.5s duration, however my point is to prove that the extra 1s is quite useful as well.

Now however we come to the point where sage rocks - chi. Where would you use chi? Of course, there arent as many uses as a wizard might find for it, but still plenty. Example: in TW nixes account for maybe 70% of my deaths. Most of the time i dont have an extra spark to use wings of grace. However, with sage i will get 1 extra spark every 2 minutes, meaning that when this nix is again coming for me and I only have 20 chi from my 2 self buffs, I can stun it, shoot it a couple times, use chi skill->wings of grace->run with 30% bonus and 33% reduced damage of nix flesh ream->if nix is still after me, then i holy path away and and flank the veno for some sweet revenge.


Regarding hell spark, relentless courage can substitute the +25% attack spd., BUT in any case, if i happen to somehow get 3 spark in tw(which would be faster with sage), then i would 1-spark, shoot 1 arrow to get to 2 sparks, and barrage the m..ckers as long as i can, which is usually only 3-8 rounds before some bm comes along and stuns me. I, in fact, cant really recall anyone sparking in TW. Thats about the same as starting BoA - a sign saying 'plz kill/stun/do smt bad to me'. I mean how bad would it suck to triple spark, only to have bm run up and stun lock your **** for 10s? Prb just as bad as having been stunned only after 2 rounds of barrage, but then at least some damage would be done.


Anyways, there are many other points to argue about both choices, but my main question is - does crit REALLY matter than much. Also, is that the main and possibly only advantage of demon path? I mean there are only a handful of people who have those skills, and the rest are just doing theory, which as we all know can have no connection to reality. In any case, enjoy my table and hopefully ill make up my mind b4 this weekend's TW.