Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Chaotiic - Lost City

unbiased wrote: »

From this post, I can see there is a massive lack in common sense in the archer community.

I thought most of this was self explanatory. I feel bad for Yoshiki and friends who went heaven and then leveled extremely high. What a waste of a character + parents money .

Lily qq's about it to me in vent every day b:chuckle

Which u would know if u ever came on anymore b:cry

elmii

KwanYing - Heavens Tear wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-o3QUzPtaU b:dirty
Hope is the right one xD

4 k hp ? only? or do i see it wrongly, the quality isn t the best.... My opinion - pure dex archer as Heaven = fail (I assume he is dex since he is that low on hp and I assume he is high enough to be set as an example of the heaven archer by the creator of the thread, otherwise stfu and give the proper example of one), why would you even bother with heaven if you have an opportunity to enchant your crits. Vit, Hybrid builds with heaven, yeah, and PVE...

Forp - Heavens Tear

there's no such thing as a "better" choice at 89. it's how u play and what u want to do. and, please, +2% crit from the passives isn't a culti-changing choice. u already have 20-ish % by that level. how does 2% change anything?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

there's no such thing as a "better" choice at 89. it's how u play and what u want to do. and, please, +2% crit from the passives isn't a culti-changing choice. u already have 20-ish % by that level. how does 2% change anything?

I agree with your first couple sentences, but demon archers also get temporary critical hit bonuses from some of their demon skills, so their crits become fairly reliable. Demon archer damage spikes will be lower than sage archer damage spikes but with appropriate skill use, and for some fairly common gear and weapon configurations, demon archers can dish out higher damage than sage archers, after preparing with their skills.

But a sage archer wearing demon archer gears and fighting like a demon archer would just be silly.

TigerLily - Lost City

Forp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

there's no such thing as a "better" choice at 89. it's how u play and what u want to do. and, please, +2% crit from the passives isn't a culti-changing choice. u already have 20-ish % by that level. how does 2% change anything?

You really have to much faith in the developers lol
Seeing how they fail fixing bugs and glitches in this game for 5 years, you think they really made 100% sure all 89+ choices are equally good for pvp?

And its not the demon passives with 1% crit and 1% crit + 10% accuracy that makes demon superior compare to sage. Its the fact that all skills you use in pvp as demon archer has a big chance to give you a self buff with 10-30% critical add on for 6-15 sec (depending on what skill you use).

Chaotiic - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree with your first couple sentences, but demon archers also get temporary critical hit bonuses from some of their demon skills, so their crits become fairly reliable. Demon archer damage spikes will be lower than sage archer damage spikes but with appropriate skill use, and for some fairly common gear and weapon configurations, demon archers can dish out higher damage than sage archers, after preparing with their skills.

But a sage archer wearing demon archer gears and fighting like a demon archer would just be silly.

Heaven damage spikes wont be higher than **** even when u have passives as its 300pattack more when u have 6.4-10.7k which is not even close to noticeable. However the frequency of spikes from increased critical is very significant as a demon archer has +2% from passives and +10% from skills which can be kept constant

Devoted - Lost City

Plus attack speed bonuses from skills = **** with bow b:cool

BloodCountes - Heavens Tear

I believe this thread must be sticky. b:thanks

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

Heaven damage spikes wont be higher than **** even when u have passives as its 300pattack more when u have 6.4-10.7k which is not even close to noticeable.

I really would prefer if you could refrain from contradicting yourself. Then I could respond simply without having to go over lots of detail to cover both sides of your argument against yourself.

But we can not always get all of our wishes.

So, anyways, if we just concern ourselves with bow mastery and blazing arrow, sage archers gain +35% weapon damage above demon archers. If this winds up being 300 damage, your bow would be doing 857 damage. But average weapon damage from an unrefined TT80 crossbow without any garnets is 1005. For a somewhat refined and sharded TT90 crossbow, sage archer's bonus weapon damage should be 500+ (or 1000+ on a critical hit).

I think you meant to say that sage's spike damage is not high enough to be significant. And, in fact, for fairly typical gear, demon archers average damage will be higher than a sage archer's with identical gear.

Then again, personally, I have been planning to be using different gear. Of course, I believe in some common cases my average damage per second will be lower than a demon archer's. However, in some other cases... well... I am picking sage because of my understanding of how my planned gear and skills will be working together when I am level 99.

Devoted - Lost City

Blazing arrow only adds damage to normal attacks.

Leaderalan - Lost City

Very nice
Great job

Main attacks are:

Take aim
Stuning arrrow
Aim low
Deadly arrow

Could you please post beside each skill what level you should stop training it at?
Pretty please


It would help me soo much.


Take Aim
Quickshot
Blazing Arrow
Frost Arrow
Winged Shell
Winged Blessing
Flight Mastery
Lightning Strike
Vicious Arrow
Knockback Arrow
Wings of Protection
AimLow
Thunder shock
Bow/Arbalest Mastery
Serrated Arrow | Fanged Arrow
Stunning Arrow
Wingspan
Thunderous Blast
Deadly Shot
Sharpened Tooth Arrow
Barrage of Arrows | Arrow Bombard
Stormrage Eagleon
Wings of Grace

I think that is all of them.

Devoted - Lost City

Take Aim - max at 89 when you get level 11 book
Quickshot - max when you get level 11 book (good luck)
Blazing Arrow - max for pve
Frost Arrow - max for pve
Winged Shell - max for pvp/pve
Winged Blessing - max for pvp/pve
Flight Mastery - dont need
Lightning Strike - max for pvp
Vicious Arrow - leave at 1, useless
Knockback Arrow - leave at 1 but really good for pve
Wings of Protection - max for pvp
AimLow - max for pvp
Thunder shock - max for pvp
Bow/Arbalest Mastery - max for pvp/pve
Serrated Arrow | Fanged Arrow - leave at 1
Stunning Arrow - max for pvp
Wingspan - not really necessary to max right away. only good for pvp against robes that are close range. max when you get level 11 book
Thunderous Blast - max for pvp
Deadly Shot - max for pre 89 pvp
Sharpened Tooth Arrow - max for pvp and pve
Barrage of Arrows | Arrow Bombard - the level of this depends on if you zhen or only use for tw. if you are only using for tw level 10 is great but if you want to zhen (without **** mp charm) leave at low levels
Stormrage Eagleon - dont ever get
Wings of Grace - get asap

missed winged pledge - same as wingspan


max = get every chance you can, you will have to prioritize your skills as you wont be able to keep each one at max till higher levels.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

wrong topic.

Goldian - Dreamweaver

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

I don't know how it happened but apparently a pre-requisite to being an archer on pwi is to be half or almost completely ****. Seriously archer seems to be a magnet for failures. Please stop, too many people have said that archers on this server are terrible. Here is a quick test to see if you qualify for this guide: What level is your poison arrow? If you didn't say 1 please keep reading. In this guide I'll attempt to save the class so many people fail with. I'll outline the basic ideas for pve and for pvp, list several telltale signs of failure and rant while I fly world quest. BTW if I ever finish this, it will be huge.

---

I'll start off with something that happened today that made me write this.

Heaven vs Hell

After being in a guild with several potential non-fail archer's and thoroughly discussing the pro's and con's to heaven and hell (it's a lie), I decided I need to somehow map out my arguments instead of conveying them with the shift button of justice in guild chat. Kay so, heaven sucks endgame, 9x and even before you hit 89 and I'm here to prove it.

Let me list some key arguments I've received from pro-heaven -- aka fail -- archers.

- Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies.

No it isn't stfu. You have 3 god damn metal attacks for pvp already. That's almost more than a cleric. Use them. If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? You need the chi for much more useful things that will actually provide damage. You never used frost arrow pre-89 pvp and you won't now. (If you do use frost arrow in pvp please stop reading my guide, you'll taint it.) The only justifiable time you could ever use heaven frost arrow in pvp is against victor because he has more metal defense than physical defense.

- Take-Aim 1 shots everything, including wb's

Ah yeaaa heaven take aim is a nice skill, I'll admit it but it isn't justifiable to go heaven seeing as the hell version is just as nice. This skill is purely based on your epeen refinement level and comparing 400% to 500% isn't a huge culti changing decision because hell casts half a second faster which is just as nice as more damage. If you were to stop at 90 this skill might be enough to make the switch to the fail side BUT this skills real power comes later in the game (remember it's weapon damaged based) so hell fury > heaven take aim.

- Free 50 chi every minute

Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it.

- 90% damage mastery

With hh90:
Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
Sage mastery: 5834-9759
Demon mastery: 5636-9427

Don't forget the 1% crit you get. Oh yeah you are an archer. You are pure dex for the crit rate (you are pure dex right?) this is how you do your damage. Crits. If archers didn't crit 5 times in 3 attacks they would be like warriors with bacon axes. That's right, you suck.

I'm sure there are more arguments people have presented but usually those are the first four. If they don't stfu or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.

---

Some reasons why hell **** heaven:

I guess I should divide this section into two categories. First I'll tell you why hell **** at 90 if you stop leveling (you're dumb) and I'll also tell you why hell **** at endgame with all skills seeing as heaven people think the heaven mastery appears in their inventory upon reaching level 89.

So you got to 90 and now you want a life AND want to be a factor? Too bad. Don't worry though, as long as you didn't choose heaven you still can sort of do something.

Aka hell fury. Seriously those two words are almost enough for you to snap out of your state of retardation to talk to mo zun (demon guide u nub) instead of the *** with the dress. You are shooting mini heaven take aim's at the speed of usain bolt. I killed yoshiki with it once when he was vit build. (in pvp war, not 1v1, you kidding me)

K so most 90 archers have: take aim, frost arrow, blazing arrow and heaven/hell fury. Take aim I discussed, blazing arrow can go away cause it only works for normal arrows (50% vs 60% isn't culti changing you pve'r) and frost arrow sucks.

So if you are deciding on stopping at 90 with only those 3 skill books readily available hell is still superior.

If you wanna get to real endgame and have several or all skills available read on.

-Quickshot
-Lightning Strike
-Sharptooth
-Stun
-Wingspan
-Wings of protection
-Barrage of arrows
-Thundershock
-Winged blessing

No, I didn't just list every skill archers have. I listed the ones in which hell is waaaay better than heaven. Looking at the list I really don't wanna explain each one because there are so many.

-Quickshot
Sage version has a 50% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version has a 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds.

Holy **** robe classes, you have a 50% chance to die in under 6 seconds. (This is the biggest **** machine with 8jun)

-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.

Ok that cooldown sucks but it will never miss. In terms of endgame that 'will not miss' is important. Sure you won't miss wb's too often already but what about non **** warriors? That's right, those warriors you made fun of with their miss-miss-miss-zerk crit-miss damage now are more dex based. Prepare to miss on important shots. Also great against other archers.

-Sharptooth
Sage version always reduces maximum HP by 20%.
Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds.

If you are even pondering heaven you must be a carebear. I'll leave it at that.

-Stun
Sage version increases stun duration to 4.5 seconds.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 10% for 10 seconds.

Looks a lot like sharptooth. Good thing archers don't heavily rely on crits.

-Wingspan
Sage version has a 20% chance to gain 50 Chi.
Demon version casts a Level 5 Winged Shell on yourself upon a successful hit.

Well holy ****. To be honest I really never noticed this skill till the stupid forge put it in my inventory. It ****. With a 6 second cool down you can literally sit there tanking warriors and werebeasts unless they one shot you. The shield breaks after 1~3 hits and by then it's already done cooldown. This skill is so vital in group pvp you won't even know till you get it. Imagine a werebeast attacking you in group pvp. Use this skill every 6 seconds while standing still and you got a wb wasting his time while your party kills every other person because they don't have to kite the annoying thing. I only died once tanking a single person's damage because law zerk crit with dragon and hes got a +11 GX.

-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.

I won't disclose my level of this skill for untold reasons (tldr im cheap) but the evasion boost this skill gives make it way better than an hour buff.

-Barrage of arrows
Sage version reduces damage taken during casting by 33%.
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.

This skill is much better than heaven because the only time you will be using it is in tw. When you open zhen you have bunch of blue **** which eerily look like arrows pointing at you saying: "STUN THIS FGT" You need to deal damage fast. Most people stun the zhenner so the 33% damage reduction can pz. Only time heaven is better is if you are facing bloodlust and they are continuously spamming their paralyze skills on your open zhen. DONT WORRY BLOODLUST ILL BE SURE NOT TO RUN WITH MY ZHEN OPEN.

-Thundershock
Sage version increases Metal resistance reduction to 25 seconds.
Demon version has a 10% chance to paralyze enemy for 10 seconds.

This is definitely a personal choice for me. I like hell better because if it does proc it will be against a heavy user (aka melee) so you either get 10 seconds of nuking or 10 seconds to kite. Sage is nice because this skill costs 30 chi but 15 seconds is enough as you will be spamming this skill against heavies.

-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.

This is annoying. 2m isn't anything. Stop arguing like it is. Basically I tell people this: get to 88, use the 88 bow, stfu now. The 10% acc is great because it adds a lot and ofc the 1% crit doesn't need anymore explanation.

---

Opinions on PVP builds

I will only talk about 3 builds because even though I think there is only one proper build there are two other acceptable builds and any other build besides these 3 were never meant to be. The 3 builds are: pure, hybrid and vit.

First off all this part of the guide is geared more towards 90+ pvp. Really the builds work for every level but the stats I will show will mostly be 9x stats.

Pure Dex

Basically all my points for the pro's of this build are the con's for the other two builds so this might get redundant. First off let me clarify one thing that makes me rage: archer's str stats. Any proper archer build will require minimum strength, emphasis on the minimum. Not 2 more strength, exactly your level + 4. If you are 90 you better have 94 strength. If you get bonuses from your equipment restat it. This build is called pure for a reason. Actually you can probably get away with capping your str at 94 for hh90 till you need more for higher 9x gear. Put all that extra str into dex. Restat your int to 3 and if you are a high level and 1~2 dex away from another crit restat your vit.

I just remembered one thing. I need to emphasize this.

☆Helm of Archer Terribleness

No archer on this server should have this helmet. It is one of the first signs that you are doing something wrong. You aren't as fail with it at 95+ but when I see people with this at 8x it makes me raaaaaaage. Class participation time: What is the str requirement for that terrible helmet? Following the proper way to play an archer what level could it first be worn at? If you said 101 congrats you can subtract. That's right level 101 is the earliest you should wear this helmet. If you have it on now I'm sure you can sell it to another 7x archer who hasn't read this yet. Even better trade it for a lion spirit helm.

As you can see pure dex is very demanding and you really want to squeeze every single dex point possible that you can. This is because your dex is directly related to your crit rate. If you have played an archer into the 90's you will realize that we actually are terrible without crits. It's depressing trying to kill something when you can't get a crit in 10 shots. You won't kill anyone not terrible without critting. Not only does pure dex provide much more crit than other builds it also gives you more damage. Now let's think about that by throwing some numbers around.

Let's say a pure dex archer hits a cleric for 1.3k no crit.
Now let's say a hybrid archer hits the same cleric for 1k no crit.

Now add the crits:
Pure: 2.6k
Hybrid: 2k

Now the damage difference is even higher. Factor in that the hybrid has around 5% less crit that means if you even do crit as a non-pure, your damage will be even worse comparing both crits. Those numbers are purely made up and I'm sure that the damage difference is probably even more but it's just there to emphasize that the damage a pure does is tons more.

Vit build (3 dex 1 str 1 vit)

No no nooo please tell me how you can pvp with this build. At 90 you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your damage for 1k more hp. Sure that hp sounds nice but it isn't helping you do anything other than tank more damage. Are we in the werebeast forums? No. In pvp you are meant to kill things, not fly around tanking 4 people, you aren't pandora - you don't even have blink ffs. You are no good surviving 1000 more damage when you deal a terrible amount back. This build is absolutely terrible at any level of the game for both pvp and pve.

Hybrid Build (7 dex 2 str 1 vit)

I really wanna rename this build as 'I'm not bad enough to go pure vit - I'm worse.' I don't understand what people are trying to accomplish with this build. Do you want to tank? Do you want to do damage? These people seem to be stuck in the middle and quite frankly it's worse to not choose a side. Hybrid is basically gimping your damage for a not even noticeable amount of hp. Congrats you now crit less and do less damage but don't worry you get a whopping 500 more hp. You really are just hurting yourself not choosing a side because you still will have trouble killing people and lasting one poison dot longer wont help you kill things.

---

Ugh, writing sucks. I'll stop for now. I tried to make it not look like a giant wall of text but I failed. Ill add more later.

Please please please argue against all of my points. Talking with people is way better than writing a guide. If someone were to read this guide I'm sure they would learn a lot more from the points other people raise and the arguments people provide against said points.

Upcoming rants:

DOTS: Stick stop.
ARMOR: No danika, go away.
SOULSTONES: loljohnnieboy
Other stuff I forgot:

Don't flame in here. I want this to be actually referenced for people who have questions. Again, please provide your opinions and constructive critism as they help make this guide better.


changelog:
42709 - started qq on heaven/hell
42909 - qq'd about builds

I started reading this guide out of curiosity not cause i think archer sucks, they rule.. i knew i didnt need 4 dex 1str every lvl.. i skipped my str few times

Im lvl 74 almost 75 with 76 str.. when i dont have any gear on, with gear i got 83 str, and i always got gear giving some str so ill go 5 dex a lvl till 80 or something.

Also you say quickshot are good for demons right? damn i tought that was only good for sage <.< i didnt lvl that one at all..
I like this guide too good work man

Leaderalan - Lost City

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Take Aim - max at 89 when you get level 11 book
Quickshot - max when you get level 11 book (good luck)
Blazing Arrow - max for pve
Frost Arrow - max for pve
Winged Shell - max for pvp/pve
Winged Blessing - max for pvp/pve
Flight Mastery - dont need
Lightning Strike - max for pvp
Vicious Arrow - leave at 1, useless
Knockback Arrow - leave at 1 but really good for pve
Wings of Protection - max for pvp
AimLow - max for pvp
Thunder shock - max for pvp
Bow/Arbalest Mastery - max for pvp/pve
Serrated Arrow | Fanged Arrow - leave at 1
Stunning Arrow - max for pvp
Wingspan - not really necessary to max right away. only good for pvp against robes that are close range. max when you get level 11 book
Thunderous Blast - max for pvp
Deadly Shot - max for pre 89 pvp
Sharpened Tooth Arrow - max for pvp and pve
Barrage of Arrows | Arrow Bombard - the level of this depends on if you zhen or only use for tw. if you are only using for tw level 10 is great but if you want to zhen (without **** mp charm) leave at low levels
Stormrage Eagleon - dont ever get
Wings of Grace - get asap

missed winged pledge - same as wingspan


max = get every chance you can, you will have to prioritize your skills as you wont be able to keep each one at max till higher levels.

Thank you very much for takeing time to do this.

Torinchibi - Lost City

If I knew I was going to play to 99 I would have went hell. If I knew ecatomb was fail and heaven spark isn't actually 700% weapon dmg, I might have gone hell. But are the 3 hell archer skills better than the 3 heaven archer skills at 89...HELL NO. Anyone that argues otherwise is biased...oh wait hypocracy ftw.
Ask any archer how much they actually spark in pvp and you will recieve the same answer...not at all. Everyone in their right mind just runs away and you waste 3 bars.

So yes, heaven is better if you never plan to get to 99 and get the hell skills that **** face, even if hell spark is better than heaven spark. BTW 50 chi per min is way useful.

99+, hell >>> heaven. Especially if you get hell stun shot.

Devoted - Lost City

I'm not sure about you but I can get hell spark off and kill people no problem in pvp. The hardest would be world pvp but in tw, cube, wushu event where you can't really run (which needs to be added lazy gm's) it is extremely easy to spark. You have a 3 second stun. Are you suggesting I can't cast a 3 second long skill so hell at 89 sucks? I guess heaven take aim (3 second cast) must be removed too. Oh wait, that's the only better skill heaven has at 89. The 50 chi is great, too bad you don't have 3 ulti's needed to pvp. Might as well use that extra chi on triple spa.. nvm.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

As far as chi gaining... I think there are several genie skills that easily match or exceed sage chi gain. If you really need chi there is your option.

Torinchibi - Lost City

....I said you wouldn't use it much, and you really don't I've only seen S use 2ple spark in TW, and that's because he can get 3 sparks b4 getting **** in a RQ TW. If the sides were even, chances are you won't last long enough, and if you do spark you will get **** so fast, you won't even know what hit you.Plus, in TW, archers usually zhen instead of spark, it's much much better.
You already said in world pvp, ppl just run off or you get slept.

Tournaments.... you would get slept. if you do not, you will get stun locked by the warriors. If you can't run due to space issues and can't fly due to dungeon restraints, then chances are there will be warriors pwning you. If you can actually spark in a party vs party setting... and you are left standing long enouhg to kill some1, your enemy is doing it wrong. True, you can stun, spark, quick take aim, seal, and kill some1, but if you have sparks, why can't the enemy have them too?

Triple spark is very situational, and to reap the benefits of hell spark, you have to normal atk. Therefore, the gain chi skill from heaven will influence your choice almost as much as the normal atk rate from hell spark.

The diff b/w heaven take aim and sparking is that by the time you finish sparking you have not hit anyone and your stun has finished already, you have to spend another second to hit some1, and they are already running away during that time....and you can't really freeze them now because you had to get a shot in to use aim low.

...For the record Heaven Frost arrow > hell frost arrow (plus, it makes you take advantage of undine strike) and so is heaven blazing arrow. No1 stops to buff for 5 seconds to make use of the hell blazing arrow.

So yes, the 3 available heaven skill are better, and yes, hell spark is better, but it's so situational that if you never plan to get 96+ or get any of the other books (which is very likely) then having a spark with faster normal atks may not be good enough to make you give up on the benefits of the heaven skills.

We may not ahve ulties, but we can spam wings of grace, and aim low... and the 79 skill and chase down cancer while he tries to run away in fox form....dropping the jaws of people watchign the spectacle.


I will not deny that hell is way better at 99, but heaven is defnitely better before you get any other skills from cube pages.

Devoted - Lost City

Torinchibi - Lost City wrote: »

....I said you wouldn't use it much, and you really don't I've only seen S use 2ple spark in TW, and that's because he can get 3 sparks b4 getting **** in a RQ TW. If the sides were even, chances are you won't last long enough, and if you do spark you will get **** so fast, you won't even know what hit you.Plus, in TW, archers usually zhen instead of spark, it's much much better.
You already said in world pvp, ppl just run off or you get slept.

I said it was harder in world, not impossible. Zhen is better in tw when you have enough people close together or you are zhenning on crystal/tower/telepost but when you can't hit many people with zhen triple fury is way better.

PK pots, anti-stun, use them.

Tournaments.... you would get slept. if you do not, you will get stun locked by the warriors. If you can't run due to space issues and can't fly due to dungeon restraints, then chances are there will be warriors pwning you. If you can actually spark in a party vs party setting... and you are left standing long enouhg to kill some1, your enemy is doing it wrong. True, you can stun, spark, quick take aim, seal, and kill some1, but if you have sparks, why can't the enemy have them too?

Triple spark is very situational, and to reap the benefits of hell spark, you have to normal atk. Therefore, the gain chi skill from heaven will influence your choice almost as much as the normal atk rate from hell spark.

You are right that hell spark is very situational and you can't have theoretical battles when talking about it. A perfect example is by you saying that the enemy can have full vigor too. Now what the enemy will do after you stun -> hell fury will change per person and per class. You have to spark at the right time and know how to be able to not get it wasted. I think in world pvp you are thinking of 1v1 over the fact you can easily pop a hell spark in group pvp and some people won't notice. By the time the enemy communicates that someone triple sparked in vent people will be dead.

...For the record Heaven Frost arrow > hell frost arrow (plus, it makes you take advantage of undine strike) and so is heaven blazing arrow. No1 stops to buff for 5 seconds to make use of the hell blazing arrow.

Both these skills are terrible in pvp for reasons I have already mentioned.

At 89 heaven has:
Take-aim
50 chi/minute

Hell:
Hell fury
Take-aim isn't even terrible with hell you don't do as much as heaven but you still do a lot and have a faster cast time.

I guess at 89 it's a lot more preference for pvp than at 99 where almost everyone is agreeing on hell.

Torinchibi - Lost City

We were comparing, and I said heaven 89 skills are better, if you think they are terrible skills except take aim, you can think that, but I use frost all the time, especially with undining wizards. And can you say you don't self buff yourself with fire arrow and occasiounally use normal atks? Sure, it's not much better, but it's better. That was the discussion. Is it better at 89, yes. Except for the atk increase in hell spark, (which you have to normal atk with, so it doesn't really matter vs heavy classes) everything at 89 for heaven is better, and the bonus for heaven spark works against anyone.

Annor - Heavens Tear

89 Skills are fairly comparable imo,
Sage's 89 strength is chi gain
Demon's is spark erupt

-Take Aim ranks are comparible, damage VS speed (i love my demonspeed, personal preferrence, I'd take the casting speed over the inc. weapon damage any day)
-Blazing Arrow leans to sage, but when you consider the damage equation at thie stage of the game, 10% weapon damage (or whatever it is) doesnt make that much difference
-Frost Arrow in my opinion is not that important an ability in endgame play.

I'd say there is no persuasive reason to pick sage for 89 skills, I won't comment on overall. For 89 I would say that demon spark is probably reason enough to go that way.

Torinchibi - Lost City

Take aim goes to sage hands down BECAUSE the skill is charged and released. Meaning, Sage take aim can be charged to 90% and take less time while doing same dmg as hell, or it can be left charged to 100% to deliver extra 100% weapon dmg.

I think everyone underestimates frost arrow. I do more dmg with that skill than I do with metal skills, and 1v1, I use it to tick heiros as the enemy approaches, then use lightning skills to finish it when they are in melee range. I will admit the skill is less useful than a metal skill 1v1 because you can't use it when some1 gets close since it's 50% reduced, but in mass pvp and any pvp where you are not getting targetted by the enemy you can stand back doing massive dmg (about as much as using metal skills after a metal debuff) to heavies. If I need to deliver a final shot, I wont charge up the 3 sec aoe, isntead I use frost arrow and fire 2ce as fast.

THE ONLY better hell aspect at 89 with just the 3 89 books is the atk bonus on the spark, and as I said, that's useless on heavy. Thus you would have to compare the heaven spark defense attribute and the chi gain to the 25% atk rate against robes...(actually it's more useful for archers as they can't get double p.def or 80% p.def reduction like the robies).

If you do have all the books, Hell is considerably better at 99 though.

Goldian - Dreamweaver

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'd say there is no persuasive reason to pick sage for 89 skills, I won't comment on overall. For 89 I would say that demon spark is probably reason enough to go that way.

b:thanks b:thanks

Cal - Harshlands

A post for the heaven archer .... devoted called him/her a noob well her opinion

1. 89 skills
All the 89 skills are better for the heaven archer.
The frost arrow skill (as torin as mentioned ) deals way more dmg than you think.
The Blazing arrow 60% for 10 mins, or added 70% for 20 secs. U choose.
As for the spark, i believe devoted has repeatedly mentioned that chi is of no use to archer (esp when she ridicules the free chi for heaven), So i don't see why she stress on triple spark. So to get to triple spark well that is quite not that easy in many fights.

One main skill of archer is wings of grace. Its just one spark. So please dont think chi is useless for archers

2.The rest
No one will be able to get most of the skills, coz frankly LC has quite a lot of archers. The rich one will ofc have better luck.
a) sharptooth
Hell skill is awesome. Heaven skill is awesome too. TT Bosses, World Bosses, High HP mobs/players etc are easily affected.

b) Winged Shell
Sage ofc coz it can take more dmg.

c) Aim low
25% to seal for 5 sec VS 25% to stun for 3 secs

d) Bow mastery
I personally feel the +1% critic wont do u as much gud as the 90% more dmg.

d) Winged Blessing, Wingspan
These no agrument hell skill. Heaven sucks.

e) Winged Pledge
Heaven ofc, hell sucks. 25% chance to reduce speed of an enemy who is already near u coz of which u are using this skill.

f) Thunderous Blast
Heaven faster skill. Hell more dmg. Goes both ways

g) Thunder Shock
Goes both ways. Please dont tell me the 10% chance for paralyse is better. For mass pvp or pvp with a cleric the Heaven skill is far better. And ofc the noobs on who u want to use this skill are not low on hp to easily die.

Lightning Strike -> Hell.

Quickshot -> Hell

Wings of Protection -> Hell for archers, Heaven if u wanna help others.

StunShot -> I would say hell. But Heaven is lucritive too, 4.5 sec stun + aim low can easily take down quite a few noobs.

Deadly Shot -> no question heaven skill

Knockback Arrow (The real pve skill) -> Heaven ofc.

Poison arrow, Serrated Arrow are ofc of no concern.

Barrage is ofc heaven but are u rich enough for lvl 11 barrage ?
Same for Stormrage Eagleon.

For all noobs who think hell is the way to go coz i deal more dmg, think again. Heaven is as gud.
One thing i think devoted has missed is tht we maybe a PVP server, but without PVE we are nowhere, and clearly heaven has an advantage over there. In 5 hrs u spent on server, u will spent atleast 3 hrs on Pve and max 1hr at pvp.

Sadly i am a demon archer. b:surrender

Devoted - Lost City

Cal - Harshlands wrote: »

A post for the heaven archer .... devoted called him/her a noob well her opinion

1. 89 skills
All the 89 skills are better for the heaven archer.
The frost arrow skill (as torin as mentioned ) deals way more dmg than you think.
The Blazing arrow 60% for 10 mins, or added 70% for 20 secs. U choose.
As for the spark, i believe devoted has repeatedly mentioned that chi is of no use to archer (esp when she ridicules the free chi for heaven), So i don't see why she stress on triple spark. So to get to triple spark well that is quite not that easy in many fights.

I did not say chi was of no use for an archer. I said that you don't have to rely on it to effectively pvp. Other classes benefit much more with the heaven chi skill.

Let me repeat this for the 400th time. Blazing arrow only works for normal attacks. You don't use normal attacks in pvp. If you do it will be against robes who have high magic defense making the extra 10% negligible. Frost arrow might deal not terrible damage but it does have the damage reduction range making it completely **** to use for pvp.

The only time you would use frost arrow in pvp is against heavies, right?
What classes wear heavy armor? Warriors and werebeasts. They need to be close to attack so frost arrow would be pointless to use. You say that you can use it when they aren't close but I would much rather use a metal attack that doesn't require 25 chi to use. Frost arrow is just another magic attack that you don't need and is obsolete in every way compared to the metal attacks you already have. Please don't reply saying that I'm complaining about the waste of chi when heaven get's a free chi skill. Even with that skill 25 chi could be used much better elsewhere. Remember, archer's can pvp effectively without chi by being smart not stupid.

One main skill of archer is wings of grace. Its just one spark. So please dont think chi is useless for archers

chi isn't useless for archers, read my posts properly and stop taking them out of context.

2.The rest
No one will be able to get most of the skills, coz frankly LC has quite a lot of archers. The rich one will ofc have better luck.

Skills aren't necessarily about money - run cube, participate in the wushu tournament when it's re-added, run gv and farm fb99. Saying heaven is better because you are ignorant and don't know how to get the skills doesn't create a case.

a) sharptooth
Hell skill is awesome. Heaven skill is awesome too. TT Bosses, World Bosses, High HP mobs/players etc are easily affected.

pve, cool. 4% more in pvp is nothing compared to 10% crit.

b) Winged Shell
Sage ofc coz it can take more dmg.

Oh my god 250 more dmg reduced.. must.. reroll.. heaven. Be serious now are you just trying to find the littlest thing to justify heaven?

c) Aim low
25% to seal for 5 sec VS 25% to stun for 3 secs

I don't understand what the developers were thinking when they added the heaven/hell skill bonus for this but whatever.. 3sec vs 5sec, heaven wins 25% of the time.

d) Bow mastery
I personally feel the +1% critic wont do u as much gud as the 90% more dmg.

15% more damage isn't that 'gud.' Even with 8jun the damage is barely anything. Crit always helps archers. This skill is equal imo.

g) Thunder Shock
Goes both ways. Please dont tell me the 10% chance for paralyse is better. For mass pvp or pvp with a cleric the Heaven skill is far better. And ofc the noobs on who u want to use this skill are not low on hp to easily die.

You gotta be kidding me. Hell is so much better than heaven with this skill it's laughable. If you are going to use this skill the odds are you are fighting a heavy armor character. Since you have 3 metal skills you WILL cast this again before the 15 seconds is up. Also since you will be using this on heavy armor if you do proc the paralyze enjoy your free 10 seconds of ****. 10% will proc quite often... Around 1 every 10 hits fyi.

Barrage is ofc heaven but are u rich enough for lvl 11 barrage ?

Wat? In tw I'd much rather be able to hit people faster than have a reduction of received damage. You are going to get stunned out of it anyways so I would like to spew out damage asap. The only time heaven is better is if you use an anti-stun but 33% isn't going to keep you alive for very long.

Same for Stormrage Eagleon.

I'm going to ignore you just said that.

For all noobs who think hell is the way to go coz i deal more dmg, think again. Heaven is as gud.
One thing i think devoted has missed is tht we maybe a PVP server, but without PVE we are nowhere, and clearly heaven has an advantage over there. In 5 hrs u spent on server, u will spent atleast 3 hrs on Pve and max 1hr at pvp.

Sorry, I don't quite understand the part about heaven dealing as much damage as hell. If your post was supposed to justify it you failed completely. You were almost safe from looking like an idiot until you tried to justify that heaven was better because you can pve. I highly doubt a heaven archer would be able to level significantly faster than a equal hell archer. 4% in HH is just a luxury, congrats on saving 60 seconds. World bosses usually have more than 1 archer, I'll let a failure sharptooth for me.

Where did the last hour go out of your 5 go?

Sadly i am a demon archer. b:surrender

Almost a recovery, too bad you said sadly.

Cal - Harshlands

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

I did not say chi was of no use for an archer. I said that you don't have to rely on it to effectively pvp. Other classes benefit much more with the heaven chi skill.

My mistake.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Let me repeat this for the 400th time. Blazing arrow only works for normal attacks. You don't use normal attacks in pvp.

You just dont get it do you.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Frost arrow might deal not terrible damage but it does have the damage reduction range making it completely **** to use for pvp.

The only time you would use frost arrow in pvp is against heavies, right?

You still dont take the big picture in consideration. Not all fights are one on one. And an archer doesnt stick so close to the heavy armor always.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

chi isn't useless for archers, read my posts properly and stop taking them out of context.

Even if you didnt mean it/ write it down, anyone who read your post will feel so.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Oh my god 250 more dmg reduced.. must.. reroll.. heaven. Be serious now are you just trying to find the littlest thing to justify heaven?

FYi the sheild goes off if dmg well ovr the reduction is done on one hit. So it helps to have a higher capapcity for the sheild.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

I don't understand what the developers were thinking when they added the heaven/hell skill bonus for this but whatever.. 3sec vs 5sec, heaven wins 25% of the time.

And here i was thinking this was a discussion about skills.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

15% more damage isn't that 'gud.' Even with 8jun the damage is barely anything. Crit always helps archers. This skill is equal imo.

I quote personal opinion.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

You gotta be kidding me. Hell is so mch better than heaven with this skill it's laughable. If you are going to use this skill the odds are you are fighting a heavy armor character. Since you have 3 metal skills you WILL cast this again before the 15 seconds is up. Also since you will be using this on heavy armor if you do proc the paralyze enjoy your free 10 seconds of ****. 10% will proc quite often... Around 1 every 10 hits fyi.

Decide if you wanna go for faster skill or hope tht the 10% chance does it.
Fyi 10% chance is not simple as 1 every 10 hits.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Wat? In tw I'd much rather be able to hit people faster than have a reduction of received damage. You are going to get stunned out of it anyways so I would like to spew out damage asap. The only time heaven is better is if you use an anti-stun but 33% isn't going to keep you alive for very long.

Please even lvl 100 hell archers will agree to me on this one.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

I'm going to ignore you just said that.

You tell i didnt read your post. Please read mine.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Sorry, I don't quite understand the part about heaven dealing as much damage as hell. If your post was supposed to justify it you failed completely. You were almost safe from looking like an idiot until you tried to justify that heaven was better because you can pve. I highly doubt a heaven archer would be able to level significantly faster than a equal hell archer. 4% in HH is just a luxury, congrats on saving 60 seconds. World bosses usually have more than 1 archer, I'll let a failure sharptooth for me.

Didnt think it was a QQ thread. Now i just am sure. Well if its wht u wanted Hell archer is better.
To all who are not devoted, let this be a guide. tried my best to bring the positives in heaven archer. If you see what i see nice and well, If you dont u are welcome to QQ.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Where did the last hour go out of your 5 go?

Travel.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Almost a recovery, too bad you said sadly.

Decided on coin toss, seriously wanted to go heaven.

Devoted - Lost City

Cal - Harshlands wrote: »

You just dont get it do you.

No, I do get it. Keep trying to justify heaven because your normal attacks do 10% more fire damage.

You still dont take the big picture in consideration. Not all fights are one on one. And an archer doesnt stick so close to the heavy armor always.

Even more reason to use any of the other magic skills. Only one requires chi and it's very helpful as it debuffs their metal defense.

Even if you didnt mean it/ write it down, anyone who read your post will feel so.

First Post:

"Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it."

Please read it again before coming off as half simple.

FYi the sheild goes off if dmg well ovr the reduction is done on one hit. So it helps to have a higher capapcity for the sheild.

I'm not sure if I translated this right but 1250 damage is 1250 damage. If you get hit for 1000 your shield will only reduce 250 more after that

Hell: 1000
Heaven: 1250

I can't simplify it anymore than that.

And here i was thinking this was a discussion about skills.

It is? I'm not too sure as why a paralyze skill would have the bonuses of stun or seal. If you are paralyzed being sealed or stun both results in the same thing so heaven wins because it lasts 2 seconds longer.

I quote personal opinion.

Of course it is personal opinion. From your original post: "I personally feel the +1% critic wont do u as much gud as the 90% more dmg."

Would you like me to list some sort of fact? Oh wait I did, heaven's 15% bonus is not huge do the calculation and you will realize this. Hell's 1% crit isn't huge either and I believe this skill is quite equal.

Decide if you wanna go for faster skill or hope tht the 10% chance does it.
Fyi 10% chance is not simple as 1 every 10 hits.

Are you playing the same game I am? The heaven version of the skill increases the duration of metal def reduction to 25 seconds.

Please even lvl 100 hell archers will agree to me on this one.

Where is chaotiic? =.= I'm assuming when you say 'barrage is ofc heaven' you mean that heaven is greatly better than hell's. I told you why it isn't and that if you have actually done a tw you would realize hell zhen is better unless you have pharm on cooldown and want to use an antistun.

You tell i didnt read your post. Please read mine.

u srs? if you even have this at level 1 you are bad - let alone 11.

Didnt think it was a QQ thread. Now i just am sure. Well if its wht u wanted Hell archer is better.
To all who are not devoted, let this be a guide. tried my best to bring the positives in heaven archer. If you see what i see nice and well, If you dont u are welcome to QQ.

You really aren't helping the heaven case. I'd suggest leaving it to people like torinchibi who aren't complete ******* and can formulate an argument.

BloodCountes - Heavens Tear

With genie implemented hell path needs only quickshot skill + relentless courage to own every single arcane class. This is about 15 sec 30 % att speed increase. b:thanks

ArsLaan - Heavens Tear

I was looking for a good pvp guide for archer, and I came to right place.
Nice guide....
I liked reading it lol,